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Tier 5 Excelsior Suggestion Thread
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Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
Hey, everyone! I figured I'd try and make a single thread where we could all post our ideas to help the development team with fleshing out a Tier-5 Excelsior ship for the C-Store. I humbly ask that everyone keep things civil and on topic, thank you!~
Here is the information we have so far, a direct quote from dstahl.
My Tier 5 Excelsior Suggestion -- **Updated!**
Bridge Officer Stations
Commander Engineering, Lieutenant Commander Engineering, Lieutenant Tactical, Lieutenant Science, Ensign Universal. (Ensign Science is acceptable if Universal is not).
Consoles: 4x Engineering, 3x Science, 2x Tactical.
Hull Strength: 35000.
Shield Strength: Identical to Assault/Star Cruisers.
Device Slots: 4.
Crew Compliment: 500-600.
Turn Rate: 9.
Weapon Slots: 4/4.
Unique Power: Transwarp Drive (as listed in above quote).
My suggestion has the Excelsior on equal footing with Tier 5 Starfleet Cruisers (no better or worse), and specifically designed similar to a Star Cruiser with Officer station layout and consoles -- which I think is more fitting of her lineage and purpose. It will also give those who do not like the look of current Star Cruisers (like myself) something to fly that is more traditional and sleek but with the desired power layout. Lesser crew is a balance and lore point (but I admit I do not know how much crew an Excelsior is supposed to have) and would allow for a marginally better turn rate.
Thoughts, anyone?
Any further comment from devs/GMs, are highly welcome!
Here is the information we have so far, a direct quote from dstahl.
dstahl wrote:The details haven't been completely ironed out yet - so I don't have all of what you're asking for but here's what I can share.
The models for the ship are nearly complete - it is just a matter of adding the powers/class configs to the ships and then getting approval.
These ships are currently slated to have slightly different configurations with at least 1 intersting unique ability (Nebula will have some sort of awacs like power and excelsior gets transwarp to any sector ability)
We are heavily considering a suggestion posted earlier where acquiring these ships unlocks both a T3 AND T5 version. So you can fly it at Captain and then a Refit version at Admiral. (love this idea btw)
And as mentioned earlier - I'm also arguing for a way to get alternative ways to unlock these types of things in game so that there are other ways to get the ship rather than via the C-Store.
Price is completely up in the air and set by the C-Store team.
My Tier 5 Excelsior Suggestion -- **Updated!**
Bridge Officer Stations
Commander Engineering, Lieutenant Commander Engineering, Lieutenant Tactical, Lieutenant Science, Ensign Universal. (Ensign Science is acceptable if Universal is not).
Consoles: 4x Engineering, 3x Science, 2x Tactical.
Hull Strength: 35000.
Shield Strength: Identical to Assault/Star Cruisers.
Device Slots: 4.
Crew Compliment: 500-600.
Turn Rate: 9.
Weapon Slots: 4/4.
Unique Power: Transwarp Drive (as listed in above quote).
My suggestion has the Excelsior on equal footing with Tier 5 Starfleet Cruisers (no better or worse), and specifically designed similar to a Star Cruiser with Officer station layout and consoles -- which I think is more fitting of her lineage and purpose. It will also give those who do not like the look of current Star Cruisers (like myself) something to fly that is more traditional and sleek but with the desired power layout. Lesser crew is a balance and lore point (but I admit I do not know how much crew an Excelsior is supposed to have) and would allow for a marginally better turn rate.
Thoughts, anyone?
Any further comment from devs/GMs, are highly welcome!
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
Unless Cryptic is willing to make this ship an hybrid that does both well at the same time and stick it under the new cruiser refit skill (unlikely I'm guessing).
The way it was used in the past movies, it looked to be more of a star cruiser than a tactical cruiser. Who knows, that could be one option. I would gladly pick up one of these if they offered it with similar specs to both the tac and star cruisers currently available at T5.... The TW to any sector is a great idea...but then again...if you use this vessel at VA...you can use slipstream...so it saves some time...but I would ant something that is a bit more useful than what is slated. Don't ask me what skill I had in mind...that's not my department...lol
***Spock raises his brow***
"Fascinating...."
They certainly could add a universal or semi-universal console slot. I'm guessing they would just restrict it so you couldn't add a fifth engineer console though (which would be fine).
A universal console... what a novel idea, easily program the sytem to allow only X number of certain types. or make it only be a tac or sci slot, restricting it from even accepting engineering.
Myself I hope that they do come out with this as a T5 varient as well as a lower Tier ship.
Sneak Peak at the Excelsior, In Game!
Above is a screen shot I discovered posted on the Tribble forums; it's not a screen shot I've taken. The Excelsior looks beautiful! Certainly seems like the refit "Enterprise-B" configuration.
BO: Commander Engineer, Lt. Cmdr Universal, Lt. Universal, Lt. Universal, Ensign Eng
Weapons: 4 Forward, 3 Aft
Shields: 4/5 the max shield strength of the t5 cruiser
Hull: The same as a t3
Turn: Same as a t3
Consoles: 3 Engineering, 3 Tactical, 3 Science
My reasons for this is the Excelsior was a universal ship, she played rolls as a defense cruiser, a battle cruiser, and a explorer ship. She is the true the work horse of the Federation.
Overall, I agree with your suggestions. By the time the Exclesior has been developed, it certainly more filled a role like the Galaxy did when it was new: Exploration, though armed very good. The Sovereign IMO was much more designed for combat in mind, no wonder: With active threads like the Borg or the Dominion it was a logical solution to outfit a new large cruiser with a larger combat layout.
I'll start right off with the special ability here:
While the Transwarp Drive sure is a nice touch, we should keep in mind that this is a total out of combat ability. Unlike the Phaser Lance, the Cloak, the Saucer Seperation or the blative Armor - which all actively change your actual combat power. So you basicly only benefit before action begins - or only when it is already over. Also how long will the cooldown be?
I think because of the non-combat nature of this ability, it should be rated a bit lower in terms of balancing out the ship.
BO Stations:
Consoles:
To do some summary with the two standard T5 Cruisers:
Pro:
+ Spacial Ability: Transwarp Drive (keep in mind this won't help you in combat though!)
+ High turnrate of 8
+ Universal Ensign allowing for a more individual mission setup
Cons:
- One less Weapon slot
- Lowest crew of T5 cruisers
- One less console slot
Compared to the Galaxy-X you keep the same console and weapon configurations. The Gal-X turns a lot slower, but has a much higher crew. While the Gal-X comes with a fixed Tac Ensign, you have a Universal Ensign station, you'll only have a not-combat special ability, compared to two (three) combat relevant abilities of the Gal-X.
Virtually the same goes for the Galaxy Refit class compared with the Excelsior.
Excelsior (Tier 5)
Equipment and Consoles
4 Device Slots
4 Engineering Slots
3 Science Slots
3 Tactical Slots
Weapons
4 Forward Weapon Slots
3 Aft Weapon Slots
Turning Rate: 9°/sec (same as Klingon Battle Cruiser)
Hull: 36.000 (same as Klingon Battle Cruiser)
Shields: Same as Federation Tier 5 Cruiser.
Bridge Officers
Commander Engineering
Lt.Commander Engineering
Lt. Tactical
Lt. Science
Ensign Universal
Rationale:
The Refit Excelsior is still smaller then most equal tier cruisers. That allows it to be more maneuverable, but it can't carry as many weapons nor can it achieve the same hull strength. Still, shield emitters are quite capable for its size.
To compensate the hull and weapon losses, it gets one more console overall then other ships of its tier.
Unlike the Klingon Neg'Vahr, it doesn't have the ability to field cannons.
To compare, this is how I might stat up the Nebula Class.
Nebula Class(Tier 5)
Equipment and Consoles
4 Device Slots
3 Engineering Slots
3 Science Slots
3 Tactical Slots
Weapons
4 Forward Weapon Slots
3 Aft Weapon Slots
Special: Can use Cannons.
Turning Rate: 11°/sec (That's approximately the maneuverability of the Engineering Section of the Galaxy Refit, IIRC.)
Hull: 36.000 (same as Klingon Battle Cruiser)
Shields: Same as Federation Tier 5 Cruiser.
Bridge Officers
Commander Engineering
Lt. Commander Universal
Lt. Tactical
Lt. Science
Ensign Universal
The Excelsior was built as a Battlecruiser so it should be more tactical.
BO Stations:
Tactical - 1 Ensign + 1 LT Commander
Engineering - (2) LT Commander
Science - LT
Consoles: 4 Eng / 2 Sci / 3 Tactical
Hull Strength (Maximum Skill): 38000
Shield Strength: Capx3 Covarient at Admiral - 8000
Crew Complement: 600
Turn Rate: 8 (should have slighly more manuverability than the Sovereign)
Weapon slots: 4 Front 3 Aft
Overall: Strong offensively, but not so much defensively.
Teslanar,
My only concern with your suggestion is losing a console... combined with 4/3 weapon loadout, and lesser crew... I am not sure the extra turn rate would make up for the power loss over other T5 Cruisers. The Universal Ensign slot doesn't really add any "power", but increases versatility (there will already be a Cruiser of every Ensign flavor). I agree with you that the Transwarp Drive should not be taken into consideration when balancing this ship, as it's not a combat power in the slightest.
MustrumRidcully,
I also like your suggestion, it gives the Excelsior more of a Battle Cruiser vibe. Weaker hull, one less aft weapon, and lesser crew (500-700 seems to be the general consensus) would seem to hold up pretty well in giving the Excelsior 1 extra console, a better turn rate, and an Ensign Universal slot.
Azurian,
I agree, Battle Cruiser strength hull and appropriate turn rate (8-9), and a smaller crew compliment, are good balance points. But your officer station layout doesn't list any Commander-rank stations, and I feel that would be a severe disadvantage and weakness in a ship that should be as strong as other T5 Cruisers.
That said, I don't believe the Excelsior should exclusively have a Tactical focus. Here is a quote from the Memory Alpha wiki, link here.
This seems to me the Excelsior class should be as well equipped for Exploration as Combat.
The thing is...while the Excelsior has a unique power, it's not a unique combat power. It sounds like we'll be getting a better sector space transwarp. That'll improve quality-of-life, but it won't affect how the Excelsior performs in combat.
So if it gives up anything in exchange for that transwarp - fewer weapon slots, fewer devices...then that's potentially worrying. I dunno. This probably really ain't an issue for the T3 Excelsior. But if they do a T5 Excelsior, and I really really hope they do, then balance versus the other T5 ships becomes important.
Particularly for PvP.
I think it's unlikely the Excelsior (or Nebula) will get a universal BO slot of any kind. That's thus far been the exclusive province of the Bird of Prey...a lot of Klingon players cried bloody murder when cloaks came to the Fed-side in the Galaxy-X and now the refit Defiant. Giving a Fed ship a universal BO slot is going to cause that same angst all over again.
Universal Slots have been the sole domain of Birds of Prey, this much is true. But considering the Excelsior and the Nebula, if there were ever two ships of Starfleet who should have at least a Universal Ensign slot, it would be these two. I don't believe them having a Universal Ensign slot would undermine the Bird of Prey, which has Battle Cloak (unique, no other ship has this) along with Universal slots of all stations (no other ships have this, either, in any form).
Excelsior is obviously not going to get Battle Cloak, and I don't think Klingons are going to get up in arms about a Universal Ensign slot. I have a BG5 I play regularly, and it certainly doesn't bother me.
I tend to say the Excelsior is more of an Exploration ship, just like the Galaxy. They have been built in a different time than lets say the Sovereign. There weren't any real threats or even active wars back then. The current situation is a different one.
Yet I agree with you on my layout. The question is what to change? I'd now add a thrid tactical console for this ship. Then we would have 4x Engineering, 2x Science, 3x Tactical. The universal BO slot is really a BoP thing, the question is now what else to add there? Since the Gal-X already offers a Tac Ensign as a second ship besides the Assault Cruiser, the Gal-Refit offers an Engi Ensign slot it would be more logical to have it feature another Sci Ensign slot besides the Star Cruiser.
Maybe even ditch a second station alltogether and instead give us an Lt.Cmd. station instead of a Lt. one. So either Tac. Lt.Cmd. or Sci Lt.Cmd. but I am not sure if that might be too much.
Problem with the Transwarp Drive is still that it is an advantage. Lets say we'd make the Excelsior like the Star Cruiser, people would choose Excelsior because the Transwarp Drive adds some comfort ingame.
I agree with you that it's an advantage, but it's not a combat advantage. It's also something we'll be shelling out cash over (but is NOT the selling point, unlike the Cloak with Galaxy-X). Now, I don't want to get into a debate about C-Store practices and morals; but it really has no impact on combat performance and to be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if we see a similar feature for everyone in the future. Being able to set one's Transwarp point to a specific starbase is something people have been wanting for a while -- with the Excelsior's Transwarp Drive, it's caused that topic to resurface. I don't want the Excelsior's combat performance impacted over something that can very likely change in a couple patches.
I truly believe the Excelsior should receive, at least, a Science Ensign station and not a Tactical one; I think a lot of people feel the same way. The Sovereign was designed purely for warfare and to combat the Borg threat, and all it receives is an extra Ensign Tactical station and Tactical console. The Excelsior, like you say, was flown in a time if relative peace (the war with the Klingons was largely over and the Romulans were hiding behind their borders).
It would be an interesting design point to scrap the Ensign Science station altogether and bump up the default Lieutenant Science station to Lieutenant Commander; but that is unlike any other ship in the game currently and would need to be carefully balanced. What would the Excelsior lose for such a gain? Surely the aft weapon slot, and perhaps keep Consoles to 4x Engineering, 2x Science, and 2x Tactical (like Tier4 Cruisers). Diminished Crew of ~600, combined with the loss of a Console and aft weapon slot would balance the Lt. Commander Science station (this is assuming we're still shooting for a slightly better turn rate, similar to that of a Battle Cruiser).
Perhaps the safest way to play it would make the Excelsior identical to the Star Cruiser, save for roughly half the crew, better turn rate, and maybe 35,000 hull strength instead of 39,000. That's a configuration I can certainly live with, though no one's suggestions have been bad. Such a layout would give people who like the Science-themed feel of Star Cruisers a more traditional and sexy look for their starship; I know I don't like how Star Cruisers look, and plenty of others don't, either. It would be a great alternative... and help keep the ship in line with the C-Store needing to be mostly cosmetic/game services (like name changes, etc)... it would, essentially, be little more than a Star Cruiser costume with some minor quirks.
Personally (I'm just rambling now), I don't like the idea of the Excelsior being another Tactical-themed Cruiser, like the Assault Cruiser. We already have the Sovereign, and she's lovely. Excelsior can compliment the Sovereign on the other side of the fence, as a Science-focused Cruiser.
I would be happay with that. The idea of making the Excelsior a more fragile, yet more versatile counterpart of the Star Cruiser while keeping the general performance is tempting one. While I like the Star Cruiser design, many people don't. This way they *might* also have an optical alternative with the Excelsior.
Also the Galaxy-X is something I already find rather tactical orientated (Cloak, Phaser Lance, Cannons, Tac Ensign slot), I also have to say we should have another more science oriented ship with the Excelsior.
Oh, definitely! Sometimes I forget the Galaxy-X is a Cruiser, the way people fly them. Seems more like a slow and blundering Escort to me.
That's nice to know, and definitely means there's no reason to balance the Excelsior against her (hardly) unique power!
That's asking for a bit much...Maybe allow there to be a universal BO position so that we can decide if we want it to act more like a star cruiser or an assault cruiser.
I checked out the calender, but yesterday was the last day for the C store updates. Next month?
So making it a standard T3 Heavy Cruiser but with a Galaxy-X like refit option(sans Phaser lance) at T5 would make the most sense to me.
I remember seeing the Excellsior launch loads of torps at the cloaked BOP in Undiscovered Country from two forward launchers , so perhaps something to boost torpedos?