One side note with the customization we have when creating female characters/BOs, do you REALLY think there will be no abuse of the string bikini option?
Well currently with what we have there will be no abuse. Just was playing on test and BOs dont even get Casual options.
But even if there were, what happens on the privacy of someone's bridge really doesn't affect anyone but the owner of it.
The solution to your internal debate is quite simple, and it's a tried-and-true business practice. Have EACH SIDE (assuming you've trimmed it down to 2 sides) write the following after a brainstorming session:
1) What are your REASONS for (limiting uniform locations / NOT limiting uniform locations)? This should include a list of the game-enhancing behaviors you believe it will promote. You could also call this the "Positive Contribution? Test."
2) What are your reasons for DISAGREEING with the opposing view? This should include a list of the negative behaviors you believe the opposing view would permit / promote. You could also call this the "Why not? Test."
3) What are the potential DRAWBACKS to your particular view? This should include a list of the game-enhancing behaviors you believe your own view could PREVENT. You could also call this the "More Harm Than Good? Test."
4) Citing your list for #1, what is the highest percentage of participating players at which these behaviors will remain game-enhancing? Remember that any behavior permitted to one player is permitted to all. You could also call this the "What if EVERYONE Did It? Test."
5) If your answer to #5 is less than 100%, what mechanisms would there be in place, if any, that work to actively promote alternative choices and assure the proper percentage of participation is maintained? You could also call this the "Corollary to the What if EVERYONE Did It? Test."
The solution to your internal debate is quite simple, and it's a tried-and-true business practice. Have EACH SIDE (assuming you've trimmed it down to 2 sides) write the following after a brainstorming session:
1) What are your REASONS for (limiting uniform locations / NOT limiting uniform locations)? This should include a list of the game-enhancing behaviors you believe it will promote. You could also call this the "Positive Contribution? Test."
2) What are your reasons for DISAGREEING with the opposing view? This should include a list of the negative behaviors you believe the opposing view would permit / promote. You could also call this the "Why not? Test."
3) What are the potential DRAWBACKS to your particular view? This should include a list of the game-enhancing behaviors you believe your own view could PREVENT. You could also call this the "More Harm Than Good? Test."
4) Citing your list for #1, what is the highest percentage of participating players at which these behaviors will remain game-enhancing? Remember that any behavior permitted to one player is permitted to all. You could also call this the "What if EVERYONE Did It? Test."
5) If your answer to #5 is less than 100%, what mechanisms would there be in place, if any, that work to actively promote alternative choices and assure the proper percentage of participation is maintained? You could also call this the "Corollary to the What if EVERYONE Did It? Test."
:P dodge ball works better. Last one standing wins.
The solution to your internal debate is quite simple, and it's a tried-and-true business practice. Have EACH SIDE (assuming you've trimmed it down to 2 sides) write the following after a brainstorming session:
1) What are your REASONS for (limiting uniform locations / NOT limiting uniform locations)? This should include a list of the game-enhancing behaviors you believe it will promote. You could also call this the "Positive Contribution? Test."
2) What are your reasons for DISAGREEING with the opposing view? This should include a list of the negative behaviors you believe the opposing view would permit / promote. You could also call this the "Why not? Test."
3) What are the potential DRAWBACKS to your particular view? This should include a list of the game-enhancing behaviors you believe your own view could PREVENT. You could also call this the "More Harm Than Good? Test."
4) Citing your list for #1, what is the highest percentage of participating players at which these behaviors will remain game-enhancing? Remember that any behavior permitted to one player is permitted to all. You could also call this the "What if EVERYONE Did It? Test."
5) If your answer to #5 is less than 100%, what mechanisms would there be in place, if any, that work to actively promote alternative choices and assure the proper percentage of participation is maintained? You could also call this the "Corollary to the What if EVERYONE Did It? Test."
Thank you for sharing your obviously vast intellect on the methods that should be employed since the cure for cancer is already found....oh wait
One side note with the customization we have when creating female characters/BOs, do you REALLY think there will be no abuse of the string bikini option?
If there are no limitations or toggle/slider options when swimwear comes out I'm done with the game. There are a lot of other games out there that are 100% better than this one. Only reason to play this game at this point is because it is advertised as Star Trek themed. Start eroding that theme even more than they have and it's just a below average sci-fi mmo and not worth my subscription.
Im not looking for STO to be like every other MMO. I have my issues with this game. But I like the fact it isnt like every other MMO (even though endgame is obviously funnelling you into a preset loadout of gear and weapons) but the great thing about it is the amount of Diversity your able to enjoy. Off Duty uniforms on SB01 is fine, as long as its not swimwear. Beyond that, where what you want. I see people in some very flashy uniforms. So Im not hellbent on forcing people into a box. And the compromise that I and others have brought up seriously doesnt restrict anyone. Just keeps people from turning this into SIMs. This is a ST IP. And swimwear in areas that arent oriented towards that type of outfit would only degrade the Star Trek feel of this game.
Im not looking for STO to be like every other MMO. I have my issues with this game. But I like the fact it isnt like every other MMO (even though endgame is obviously funnelling you into a preset loadout of gear and weapons) but the great thing about it is the amount of Diversity your able to enjoy. Off Duty uniforms on SB01 is fine, as long as its not swimwear. Beyond that, where what you want. I see people in some very flashy uniforms. So Im not hellbent on forcing people into a box. And the compromise that I and others have brought up seriously doesnt restrict anyone. Just keeps people from turning this into SIMs. This is a ST IP. And swimwear in areas that arent oriented towards that type of outfit would only degrade the Star Trek feel of this game.
and as countless posts in the thread suggest..
how dare you even suggest that swimwear be restricted! you must be a fascist prude! *rolls eyes*
in their mind compromise is not even an option and therein lies the real problem with the whole discussion.
To add a comment - swimwear is currently *not* in development. It would require a boatload of new skin textures and will take some time before we could get there.
To add a comment - swimwear is currently *not* in development. It would require a boatload of new skin textures and will take some time before we could get there.
Wait..are you saying you guys forgot to implement cleavage?
So your dress code is actually a perpetual state of emergency that finds you out of uniform....and that is your ships uniform....right.
Bridges will eventually become functional as we were promised. So being prepared for it is not a bad idea
/facepalm
What do you propose, only letting someone wear casual clothes onto the bridge a certain # of times per day?
Suppose a science captain who gets so caught up in the lab that when the red alert claxons start they're lucky to arrive on the bridge in a clean labcoat. Far more neurotic individuals have had successful careers in Starfleet (Reginald Barcaly).
You are a starfleet officer. Not a privateer, not half vambire, not Dritzz's lost son or he new Arthas. For the love of God think what you want in your head but in game you are a starfleet officer. Plain and simple. No amount of disbelief this will make an argument on your behalf. If you dont want to be one the dont play Star Trek.
The hyperbole is uncalled for, though undoubtedly there will be idiots running around as such. That said, vampires in Star Trek are canonical, albeit quite gross.
My position on this is clear and unwavering: with the exception of off-duty attire (which, coincidentally, by its very name should be limited to off-duty locations only, but wont be) all Starfleet personnel are required to wear the appropriate uniform when performing duties or representing Starfleet (i.e. missions). Although the uniform code has been changed to provide a vast range of options and customization, a uniform must cover at least 60% of the body at all times.
I disagree with this. 'Swimwear' is an extremely ill-defined category. Being defined by skin coverage is still a very parochial viewpoint. Non-swimwear - whether traditional ethnic attire or simply fashion - that is best described as a few loosely assosciated strips of cloth appears throughout the canon, including (and very prominently) from the times blessed by Rodenberry.
Further following from the above considerations, I don't want restrictions levied on mission spaces because - with the precious few environments easily accesible otherwise, and a total lack of ship interior spaces - my RP fleet has taken to using certain mission maps as RP spaces which often don't mesh with the original mission or involve a mission at all. Actually having more environments and a functioning mission/area creator would make this a non-issue, but that's a long way down the road.
To add a comment - swimwear is currently *not* in development. It would require a boatload of new skin textures and will take some time before we could get there.
Or a Beachload.
Surprised the skin textures for the female Mirror Universe outfits wouldn't work. Not that I really care much about swimwear. (I do care about the missing MU outfits though.)
Regardless i think people got so fixated on their deep hatred of Swimwear that they lost sight of your actual question of limiting where Casualware could be worn.
To add a comment - swimwear is currently *not* in development. It would require a boatload of new skin textures and will take some time before we could get there.
To add a comment - swimwear is currently *not* in development. It would require a boatload of new skin textures and will take some time before we could get there.
To add a comment - swimwear is currently *not* in development. It would require a boatload of new skin textures and will take some time before we could get there.
So it has been written. So shall it (not) be done.
Now... how about allowing us to customize our badges?....
To add a comment - swimwear is currently *not* in development. It would require a boatload of new skin textures and will take some time before we could get there.
It may greatly impact our decision of when to take on swimwear. That and the lead content designer and I have the two arguments and I wanted more amunition to throw at him :P
It may greatly impact our decision of when to take on swimwear. That and the lead content designer and I have the two arguments and I wanted more amunition to throw at him :P
It may greatly impact our decision of when to take on swimwear. That and the lead content designer and I have the two arguments and I wanted more amunition to throw at him :P
So... while we're here.... can I pick your brain over the possibility of customizing commbadges?
Would love to have a fleet badge or anything of my own design yes, I know the badge was standardized to emulate the badges of the Enterprise in commemoration of her daring exploits, blah blah.. But seriously . Does the dev team have any feedback on this idea?
It may greatly impact our decision of when to take on swimwear. That and the lead content designer and I have the two arguments and I wanted more amunition to throw at him :P
My argument would be 'its not a starfleet simulator its a star trek themed game' so swimwear should be allowable. If you had to compromise, I support a 'no casual wear in spacedock' game rule that will default you to duty uniform on those areas.
It may greatly impact our decision of when to take on swimwear. That and the lead content designer and I have the two arguments and I wanted more amunition to throw at him :P
Interesting, Im wondering from which ammo box are you going to be grabbing from.
It may greatly impact our decision of when to take on swimwear. That and the lead content designer and I have the two arguments and I wanted more amunition to throw at him :P
So introduce him to the concept of "Pakled going wild" at the beach, or Nausicaans wearing thongs... brrr...
To add a comment - swimwear is currently *not* in development. It would require a boatload of new skin textures and will take some time before we could get there.
The "armed and nekkid" throngs standing on counter tops next to their rainbow Power Ranger brethren in front of every vendor a moot point for now, I and many others are here because it's Star Trek, not because it has Star Trek stuff in it.
That said, the wearing of genre appropriate civilian garb is a non-issue given what some players churn out via the tailor as a sort of anti-uniform. If the casual stuff is allowed on a mission when not specifically called for by the situation I think it's idiotic (Starfleet has always been a uniformed military and exploratory service) but it's only seen by that specific player so no harm done.
But as developers, please keep in mind: everything that wears away at an "in it indefinitely for the Trek" player's ability to imagine himself in the same universe as Jim, Jean-Luc, Ben and Kate wears away at his or her motivation and enthusiasm to log in the next time. The people on a lark playing in a tongue-in-cheek style are to be encouraged to have a good time, but not at the expense of in-universe RP. It's the Trek fans who'll still be here when the next MMO flavor of the month is released.
But as developers, please keep in mind: everything that wears away at an "in it indefinitely for the Trek" player's ability to imagine himself in the same universe as Jim, Jean-Luc, Ben and Kate wears away at his or her motivation and enthusiasm to log in the next time. The people on a lark playing in a tongue-in-cheek style are to be encouraged to have a good time, but not at the expense of in-universe RP. It's the Trek fans who'll still be here when the next MMO flavor of the month is released.
bingo.. and it's the Trek fans that will be the ones opening up their wallets as they have done time and time again for movies, merchandising, conventions, etc.
The "armed and nekkid" throngs standing on counter tops next to their rainbow Power Ranger brethren in front of every vendor a moot point for now, I and many others are here because it's Star Trek, not because it has Star Trek stuff in it.
That said, the wearing of genre appropriate civilian garb is a non-issue given what some players churn out via the tailor as a sort of anti-uniform. If the casual stuff is allowed on a mission when not specifically called for by the situation I think it's idiotic (Starfleet has always been a uniformed military and exploratory service) but it's only seen by that specific player so no harm done.
But as developers, please keep in mind: everything that wears away at an "in it indefinitely for the Trek" player's ability to imagine himself in the same universe as Jim, Jean-Luc, Ben and Kate wears away at his or her motivation and enthusiasm to log in the next time. The people on a lark playing in a tongue-in-cheek style are to be encouraged to have a good time, but not at the expense of in-universe RP. It's the Trek fans who'll still be here when the next MMO flavor of the month is released.
Thats exactly what it boils down to. Who is going to be here for the long run.
This game has gotten rid of alot of what it means for something to be Star Trek. And we as fans of Star Trek are willing to deal with some of it simply because for this MMO to be successful, we have to give somethings up. But swimwear is not one of these issues. This isnt STO: SpringBreak '10. And of all the videos and pictures people submitted to prove how swimwear is everywheres. Of all those videos I noticed key things that basically undermined their arguement. They were either alien races not aligned with StarFleet or the Federation, civilians, individuals in the privacy of their own quarters or homes, or they were on a vacation like Risa............And to use that is only taking out of context what those videos and pics represented in those individual episodes and movies.
Obviously casualwear is going to be implemented. And its obvious by Tribble that it will be implemented everywhere. But swimwear isnt even on the drawing boards. So I think my final opinion on the situation. Either the very light restriction on swimwear, or no swimwear at all. If the other side isnt willing to compromise on false principals of expression....then my vote, even though it doesnt count is for no swimwear. Id rather go without it then to let people turn this game into SpringBreak.
It may greatly impact our decision of when to take on swimwear. That and the lead content designer and I have the two arguments and I wanted more amunition to throw at him :P
Of coarse now he's also got more ammunition to throw at you. This issue seems to be more polarizing that I would have expected.
PROPOSITION: Allow formal and off-duty clothing, but only allow the "swimwear" category on non-starbase planets/settings. Missions, your own ship, Risa, wear whatever you want. Public areas of business (Starbases) require a bit more modesty--unless they add pool/dance club INSTANCES to starbases later on, so they can allow them there, too.
PROS: Starbases maintain a certain IP-appropriate climate. Everyone can still wear EXACTLY what they want, just not in every single place on the map. People who don't want to be surrounded by Chippendales while at the equipment vendor don't have to be. Everyone is able to exercise their "freedoms" without killing someone else's.
CONS: There are a small handful of places you can't wear the thong. And that's it.
COMPROMISES OFFERED: The proposition is already a compromise. Disallow it in ONE type of setting, allow it EVERYWHERE ELSE.
Side B - Allow it Everywhere
PROPOSITION: Allow any costume, any place, any time. Not doing so is "limiting player freedom." Some even consider it "fascist" that one would force a "prudish" view on them in a public setting.
PROS: I can wear my thong and dance on Sulu's desk. I can stand around dancing in a bikini by the Exploration traders. My friends and I can surround the group having an RP or Fleet meeting in SB1 and make lewd gestures in scant clothing, because hey, they deserve it for trying to quietly have their fun within my reach.
CONS: Yes, plenty of people are going to do it. The claim is made that it's maybe "1% of each server" in other games. Well, this game only has one, so several of those "one percents" are all crowded onto one, and SB1 is frequented by the entire population. So it only takes 1%.
COMPROMISES OFFERED: Downplay the problem, call people prudes or fascists. Talk like STO is the grand arena of civil rights, where your freedom to be thonged is at stake.
What is so wrong with allowing BOTH SIDES to have what they want? Why is it that when the "no bikini" team wants it 100% their way, it's unreasonable.... but when the "pro bikini" team wants it 100% their way, it's an issue of global civil rights?
COMPROMISE HAS BEEN OFFERED. Name one reason (other than "because") that Mr. Spock has to wear his thong in the Admiral's office when he could wear it almost ANYWHERE ELSE. Even on missions.
This pretty much nails the core issue. I find it interesting that no one on the "anything goes" side of the debate tried to refute it.
I also agree with the posts above. This is about the long-term and keeping a semblance of the IP intact. While I don't have an issue with bikinis everywhere in general, ST:O would stop being a Trek-based game at that point, and that's why a lot of us are here in the first place.
And honestly, visions of scantily-clad S&M Klingons charging into battle, their Targs' studded leather collars glinting in the sun, disturbs me.
Comments
Well currently with what we have there will be no abuse. Just was playing on test and BOs dont even get Casual options.
But even if there were, what happens on the privacy of someone's bridge really doesn't affect anyone but the owner of it.
The solution to your internal debate is quite simple, and it's a tried-and-true business practice. Have EACH SIDE (assuming you've trimmed it down to 2 sides) write the following after a brainstorming session:
1) What are your REASONS for (limiting uniform locations / NOT limiting uniform locations)? This should include a list of the game-enhancing behaviors you believe it will promote. You could also call this the "Positive Contribution? Test."
2) What are your reasons for DISAGREEING with the opposing view? This should include a list of the negative behaviors you believe the opposing view would permit / promote. You could also call this the "Why not? Test."
3) What are the potential DRAWBACKS to your particular view? This should include a list of the game-enhancing behaviors you believe your own view could PREVENT. You could also call this the "More Harm Than Good? Test."
4) Citing your list for #1, what is the highest percentage of participating players at which these behaviors will remain game-enhancing? Remember that any behavior permitted to one player is permitted to all. You could also call this the "What if EVERYONE Did It? Test."
5) If your answer to #5 is less than 100%, what mechanisms would there be in place, if any, that work to actively promote alternative choices and assure the proper percentage of participation is maintained? You could also call this the "Corollary to the What if EVERYONE Did It? Test."
Can't really argue with that logic, to be honest...
Unless I outrank you and comandeer your ship...
:P dodge ball works better. Last one standing wins.
Thank you for sharing your obviously vast intellect on the methods that should be employed since the cure for cancer is already found....oh wait
That wasn't the cure for cancer? *goes back to reread*
If there are no limitations or toggle/slider options when swimwear comes out I'm done with the game. There are a lot of other games out there that are 100% better than this one. Only reason to play this game at this point is because it is advertised as Star Trek themed. Start eroding that theme even more than they have and it's just a below average sci-fi mmo and not worth my subscription.
and as countless posts in the thread suggest..
how dare you even suggest that swimwear be restricted! you must be a fascist prude! *rolls eyes*
in their mind compromise is not even an option and therein lies the real problem with the whole discussion.
Wait..are you saying you guys forgot to implement cleavage?
/facepalm
What do you propose, only letting someone wear casual clothes onto the bridge a certain # of times per day?
Suppose a science captain who gets so caught up in the lab that when the red alert claxons start they're lucky to arrive on the bridge in a clean labcoat. Far more neurotic individuals have had successful careers in Starfleet (Reginald Barcaly).
If we, y'know, had labcoats available.
The hyperbole is uncalled for, though undoubtedly there will be idiots running around as such. That said, vampires in Star Trek are canonical, albeit quite gross.
Also
I disagree with this. 'Swimwear' is an extremely ill-defined category. Being defined by skin coverage is still a very parochial viewpoint. Non-swimwear - whether traditional ethnic attire or simply fashion - that is best described as a few loosely assosciated strips of cloth appears throughout the canon, including (and very prominently) from the times blessed by Rodenberry.
Further following from the above considerations, I don't want restrictions levied on mission spaces because - with the precious few environments easily accesible otherwise, and a total lack of ship interior spaces - my RP fleet has taken to using certain mission maps as RP spaces which often don't mesh with the original mission or involve a mission at all. Actually having more environments and a functioning mission/area creator would make this a non-issue, but that's a long way down the road.
Or a Beachload.
Surprised the skin textures for the female Mirror Universe outfits wouldn't work. Not that I really care much about swimwear. (I do care about the missing MU outfits though.)
Regardless i think people got so fixated on their deep hatred of Swimwear that they lost sight of your actual question of limiting where Casualware could be worn.
Skin to win... Skin to win...
Oh wait, what was the topic again?
Well, make it in development ASAP!!!! lol
So it has been written. So shall it (not) be done.
Now... how about allowing us to customize our badges?....
You couldn't have mentioned this 30 pages ago?
Z
Nope. Belly buttons.
If you're too young or just forgot.... google it.
your avatar is *most* appropriate when seen together with this quote
It may greatly impact our decision of when to take on swimwear.
I feel so used. *sob*
So which side were you on?
So... while we're here.... can I pick your brain over the possibility of customizing commbadges?
Would love to have a fleet badge or anything of my own design yes, I know the badge was standardized to emulate the badges of the Enterprise in commemoration of her daring exploits, blah blah.. But seriously . Does the dev team have any feedback on this idea?
My argument would be 'its not a starfleet simulator its a star trek themed game' so swimwear should be allowable. If you had to compromise, I support a 'no casual wear in spacedock' game rule that will default you to duty uniform on those areas.
Interesting, Im wondering from which ammo box are you going to be grabbing from.
So introduce him to the concept of "Pakled going wild" at the beach, or Nausicaans wearing thongs... brrr...
The "armed and nekkid" throngs standing on counter tops next to their rainbow Power Ranger brethren in front of every vendor a moot point for now, I and many others are here because it's Star Trek, not because it has Star Trek stuff in it.
That said, the wearing of genre appropriate civilian garb is a non-issue given what some players churn out via the tailor as a sort of anti-uniform. If the casual stuff is allowed on a mission when not specifically called for by the situation I think it's idiotic (Starfleet has always been a uniformed military and exploratory service) but it's only seen by that specific player so no harm done.
But as developers, please keep in mind: everything that wears away at an "in it indefinitely for the Trek" player's ability to imagine himself in the same universe as Jim, Jean-Luc, Ben and Kate wears away at his or her motivation and enthusiasm to log in the next time. The people on a lark playing in a tongue-in-cheek style are to be encouraged to have a good time, but not at the expense of in-universe RP. It's the Trek fans who'll still be here when the next MMO flavor of the month is released.
bingo.. and it's the Trek fans that will be the ones opening up their wallets as they have done time and time again for movies, merchandising, conventions, etc.
agree with your entire post.
Thats exactly what it boils down to. Who is going to be here for the long run.
This game has gotten rid of alot of what it means for something to be Star Trek. And we as fans of Star Trek are willing to deal with some of it simply because for this MMO to be successful, we have to give somethings up. But swimwear is not one of these issues. This isnt STO: SpringBreak '10. And of all the videos and pictures people submitted to prove how swimwear is everywheres. Of all those videos I noticed key things that basically undermined their arguement. They were either alien races not aligned with StarFleet or the Federation, civilians, individuals in the privacy of their own quarters or homes, or they were on a vacation like Risa............And to use that is only taking out of context what those videos and pics represented in those individual episodes and movies.
Obviously casualwear is going to be implemented. And its obvious by Tribble that it will be implemented everywhere. But swimwear isnt even on the drawing boards. So I think my final opinion on the situation. Either the very light restriction on swimwear, or no swimwear at all. If the other side isnt willing to compromise on false principals of expression....then my vote, even though it doesnt count is for no swimwear. Id rather go without it then to let people turn this game into SpringBreak.
Of coarse now he's also got more ammunition to throw at you. This issue seems to be more polarizing that I would have expected.
This pretty much nails the core issue. I find it interesting that no one on the "anything goes" side of the debate tried to refute it.
I also agree with the posts above. This is about the long-term and keeping a semblance of the IP intact. While I don't have an issue with bikinis everywhere in general, ST:O would stop being a Trek-based game at that point, and that's why a lot of us are here in the first place.
And honestly, visions of scantily-clad S&M Klingons charging into battle, their Targs' studded leather collars glinting in the sun, disturbs me.
Z