Yeah, and remember what happened when Captain Jellico saw her in that outfit?
He reminded her that she was a Starfleet officer and that she'd better get squared away and back into uniform. Or am I the only one that remembers that?
Which goes to show it's up to the discretion of the Captain to decide what flies and what doesn't. Also, again, Since each ship has it's own uniform what's to say that bikini you have such a problem with isn't standard dress on that ship.
Yes, officers have ended up in firefights while in casual wear before... but it was always simply because said incident was spur of the moment and couldn't be prepared for.
While I'm totally for casual wear being available in social areas such as DS9, Risa, Earth, and Vulcan, I'm completely against casual wear being allowed during missions. It's a breach of protocal and not to mention it's an immersion killer. People play this game to experience Star Trek, so make them play by Trek rules.
So I can't be like Kirk or even Picard sometimes and give Starfleet the finger as I go to save my hot number one when they order me to leave her behind?
And to be honest, anyone bothered enough to have their day "ruined" by some guy in speedos and pimp shades in a video game has some more important issues they should be taking care of.
There's a pretty obvious difference between someone having their experience in an STO mission spoiled by someone running around in a speedo and said incident actually ruining their entire RL day. And I think you're probably more than capable of distinguishing between the two results. Let's not blow things out of proportion in an attempt to make a point.
I don't really care either way, but if I can annoy roleplayers, I will. Just because they have this "NO FUN ALLOWED" mentality.
In your opinion. And your particular mindset on this is exactly why we end up having less options available to us in games. I'll say what many an MMO developer has probably thought but not said aloud: why do players always have to ruin everything?
Theres a third side that is only asking for a light restriction that keeps things appropriate. Im not for keeping "off duty" uniforms as conservative as possible. Hell, Id like to see some more liberal uniforms in certian areas. But I have to look at this as a point of compromise. Im Pro-Community. And the only way Im going to accept swimwear (even though I want it just like those asking for it) is if its kept from being used as a tool to further annoy other players.
Fine you want to do combat missions in swimwear. Only no shields no armour no kit because you wouldn,t be wearing them in swimwear. You may throw bottles of sunscreen at the enemy and try to kill them with your fish gutting knife but thats it.
Let me know how long you survive.
Then we shouldn't be given the ability to hide our armor or kits. If I can't see them they don't exist.
That doesn't negate my argument, what if you are a particularly roguish Captain who breaks the rules when he/she feels it's worth it?
Im not saying restrict off duty uniforms as a whole. Im saying restrict swimwear to places like Risa...thats it. Anything else, I dont care. Im ex military...You didnt see EVERYONE wearing uniforms on a base. When you were off duty it didnt mean you had to be off post to wear civilian attire. So I could careless someones wearing off duty uniforms at SOL, K7 or DS9. But at the same time, those bases I lived on did have restrictions on what was and wasnt appropriate. Granted this is a game and not the military, the point Im tryin to make is. I just want a fair compromise for both parties. Not just one swift decision that favors one side or the other.
I don't really care either way, but if I can be a jackhole, I will. Just because I have this incredible need to impose my will on others to compensate for other areas in which I am lacking.
I'll put this in terms any reasonable software developer should be able to relate to:
A costume system which would restrict items based on conditional situations would require MORE programming, increase the RISK of bugs and most certainly require more TIME to implement. That amount of time and effort would be unavailable for use towards other content that players in general would enjoy.
The downside of costume freedom is (of course) the possibility of people running around on starbases in bikinis. But that "possibility" does not imply a massive game-breaking problem, only an expected, dismissible minor annoyance. Sure there will be some people who are annoyed about "immersion breaking". But as has been pointed out many times in this thread there are already plenty of immersion breaking situations in play now. Adding one more to that list can't possibility make things worse or upset that many more people.
There has never been a case in either City of Heroes or Champions Online where any single costume item was ever limited based on any arbitrary conditional restrictions like only being usable in one zone or another. Do you really want something like this be the first time you slip down that slope towards costume micromanagement and development aggravation on your part?
Allow any costume item to be used anywhere, period. The downsides of allowing unrestricted access are always going to be far less problematic than trying to dictate how people ultimately enjoy playing your game. I honestly don't want to run around in bikinis on starbases myself. But I'd much rather prefer to have the CHIOCE to do that than to think this game is going to prevent me from having that choice.
His post did make some very good points. Except he neglected to mention that Devs have to take into account Griefers...When it comes to those bikinis, its a fact that there will be people who wear them JUST SO they annoy people. While we cant easily tell them apart from those just wearing them for fun. The Devs have to look ahead and create a boundary before they open up that can of worms. When does it become too much? When does it become inappropriate?
And I could careless if it means more work for the Devs...or more bugs. Its their jobs to program things. Its their jobs to fix bugs...If theyre that lazy, that they dont want to do the work to keep things incheck and would rather just let things go. Then Id rather cancel my subscription. Yes I dont mean jacksquat to them. But hey, at that point Im only worried about my ability to find something enjoyable in that game. And if the Devs are willing to take shortcuts because they just dont feel like working on that aspect of the game. Well I dont feel like paying them for taking that shortcut.
Well, it looks like the costume issues is merely the tip of the iceberg here.
What we really have is This is a space MMO vs This is Star Trek
(and if I see ONE This is Sparta joke well, you cant. Because I just used it up - so HA! :P)
The sector icons I can live with because whos to say that isnt real space but a holographic display showing our current trajectory and intended destination? Of course thered be milestone markers, etc.
I am of the school of thought that this is Star Trek. It has universal rules (no pun intended) and established and well documented history. I literally cringe at the thought of materializing in DS9 only to be affronted by bikini-clad idiots. My only option, however, would be to ignore it.
Unless and I hope the Devs are listening we can create an RPG only server. Violations of the RP immersion, such as dancing on the admirals desk, would be reportable. Discussion in private chat, not so much zone/team chat should remain RPG.
This would give those of us who wish to be more serious an adequate environment to do so and those of us who want to by joyous gypsies an equal opportunity to do so. Other than the immersion style, the servers would be identical.
His post did make some very good points. Except he neglected to mention that Devs have to take into account Griefers...When it comes to those bikinis, its a fact that there will be people who wear them JUST SO they annoy people. While we cant easily tell them apart from those just wearing them for fun. The Devs have to look ahead and create a boundary before they open up that can of worms. When does it become too much? When does it become inappropriate?
And I could careless if it means more work for the Devs...or more bugs. Its their jobs to program things. Its their jobs to fix bugs...If theyre that lazy, that they dont want to do the work to keep things incheck and would rather just let things go. Then Id rather cancel my subscription. Yes I dont mean jacksquat to them. But hey, at that point Im only worried about my ability to find something enjoyable in that game. And if the Devs are willing to take shortcuts because they just dont feel like working on that aspect of the game. Well I dont feel like paying them for taking that shortcut.
I think the fear of peeps running in Spacedock, Borg raids, DS9, etc with nothing but "Risa Casualwear" is totally unwarranted. Aside from STO, I also play Champions and prior to that, SWG. Now we all know how robust the character creation of Champions is, so much so there is even a rule to not recreate copyrighted characters since you can really mimic one very accurately. And in SWG, the introduction of the "appearance tab" can allow you to wear armour for stats, but "normal clothing for appearances".
If you log in either Champions or SWG right now at any given time, do you see nothing but a flood of female characters wearing nothing but bikinis, including the iconic Princess Leia bikini? I don't think so. Maybe the odd one here and there but its hardly noticeable or game breaking. So if Risa Casual wear is allowed, maybe a few will choose to wear them in public places or raids, but I doubt it would be so crazy that it would affect anyone emotionally.
There is nothing offensive about the existing NPCs right now that show Risa Casual Wear anyway, and like it or not, it is part of the lore (they even parodied the captain having his shirt taken off in Galaxy Quest!!!) so no worries about breaking anything.
If immersion breaking is the fear, then why aren't the starfleet uniforms more standardized? I think there is more potential to break immersion today by having existing characters wear outlandishly coloured Starfleet uniform that breaks the supposed norm.
Well, it looks like the costume issues is merely the tip of the iceberg here.
What we really have is This is a space MMO vs This is Star Trek
(and if I see ONE This is Sparta joke well, you cant. Because I just used it up - so HA! :P)
The sector icons I can live with because whos to say that isnt real space but a holographic display showing our current trajectory and intended destination? Of course thered be milestone markers, etc.
I am of the school of thought that this is Star Trek. It has universal rules (no pun intended) and established and well documented history. I literally cringe at the thought of materializing in DS9 only to be affronted by bikini-clad idiots 1.. My only option, however, would be to ignore it.
Unless and I hope the Devs are listening we can create an RPG only server. Violations of the RP immersion, such as dancing on the admirals desk, would be reportable. Discussion in private chat, not so much zone/team chat should remain RPG. 2.
This would give those of us who wish to be more serious an adequate environment to do so and those of us who want to by joyous gypsies an equal opportunity to do so. Other than the immersion style, the servers would be identical.
It is the only logical solution.
1. Good point, Scantly clad women have no place in Quarks what so ever.
2. Great Idea! The idea of an RP and a general server is just proven enough to work.
3. Does anybody honestly think Cryptic will put bikinis in STO? We have asked for skirts and what they delivered was an ankle length "robe" bottom that would make the most conservative feel over dressed.
I am a roleplayer, and do enjoy the immersion of Star Trek. I don't find much offense in attempts at being offensive. The other people running around in bikinis is as good a reason to roleplay as any about the offensiveness your character would feel about it. But it wouldn't break my immersion to see them doing so. If they want to drop smoke bombs, I type ;coughs and waves the smoke out of his face. If they run around in a horrendous outfit I make a quick IC comment and move on with life.
Im not saying restrict off duty uniforms as a whole. Im saying restrict swimwear to places like Risa...thats it. Anything else, I dont care. Im ex military...You didnt see EVERYONE wearing uniforms on a base. When you were off duty it didnt mean you had to be off post to wear civilian attire. So I could careless someones wearing off duty uniforms at SOL, K7 or DS9. But at the same time, those bases I lived on did have restrictions on what was and wasnt appropriate. Granted this is a game and not the military, the point Im tryin to make is. I just want a fair compromise for both parties. Not just one swift decision that favors one side or the other.
Well I'm just saying, what if I'm going to Vulcan and decide that swimsuits are the best protection from heatstroke? I think we might as well be able to wear it everywhere, if it bothers people so much make a slider or something: If someone is wearing a swimsuit then it just makes it appear to be a regular starfleet uniform to you... seeing as Cryptic likes sliders.
And to address people arguing about distractions... Aren't miniskirts a distraction too then?
You are all trying to make every species in the galaxy conform to your humanocentric Victorian standards. Have you considered what it must be like, for an alien andorian hottie who grew up in an ice cave?
Your federation space stations are downright boiling for her. Let her be comfortable at least, since she has to conform to your human standards of social etiquette and secular humanist values.
It's not enough that she has to act like you? You want her to dress like you too, despite how uncomfortably hot the space stations are!
That's just cultural imperialism, plain and simple.
I really get the feeling some people are not reading every post in this thread and, as a result, the same arguments keep coming up or prospective solutions are getting missed.
Again, simplest solution I can see:
- Regulation Starfleet Uniform. (Required for promotions and specific missions designed to require it in the future.)
- Non-Regulation Business Casual. (This is what we have on the test server, it's a separate slot for Captains and an option for BOs ***RIGHT NOW ON THE TEST SERVER, ABOUT TO GO LIVE***. I'd make this an option for all but the most formal of missions and extend it to things like Ferengi business suits and Bajoran militia outfits and bomber jacket ensembles seeing as how we have examples of these types of clothes being worn, on duty and manning stations, by Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Picard, Data, Troi, Wesley, Riker, Quark, Nog, Rom, Odo, Kira, Sisko, Jake, Neelix, Kes, Seven of Nine and the entire NX-01 crew.)
FYI: There IS a variable which tracks what type of uniform you're wearing, if you haven't checked it out on Tribble.
- Recreational Wear. (CRYPTIC HAS NOT DESIGNED ANYTHING LIKE THIS FOR PLAYERS YET. This should be a separate type and should restrict your activities a bit. This should be stuff like the NX-01 skivvies, Orion Slave Girl costumes, Sherlock Holmes, Horatio Hornblower nautical wear, DS9 Baseball uniforms, etc. This stuff is SILLY and is NEVER worn on duty if you can help it. I'd propose undercover missions that may call for this.)
In terms of where you can wear it, Starbases ARE recreational facilities so ALL costumes make sense there. There's a dance club in the middle of Starbase 1. Ships, even in wartime, have civilian compliments and shipboard recreation. I think what would make the most sense is if you just don't allow people to enter missions in anything below Business Casual. You can wear whatever you want, wherever you want... But you need to at least wear semi-professional attire to do a mission there. And some quests will require you to change into uniform to complete, which takes all of a second.
Well, it looks like the costume issues is merely the tip of the iceberg here.
What we really have is This is a space MMO vs This is Star Trek
(and if I see ONE This is Sparta joke well, you cant. Because I just used it up - so HA! :P)
The sector icons I can live with because whos to say that isnt real space but a holographic display showing our current trajectory and intended destination? Of course thered be milestone markers, etc.
I am of the school of thought that this is Star Trek. It has universal rules (no pun intended) and established and well documented history. I literally cringe at the thought of materializing in DS9 only to be affronted by bikini-clad idiots. My only option, however, would be to ignore it.
Unless and I hope the Devs are listening we can create an RPG only server. Violations of the RP immersion, such as dancing on the admirals desk, would be reportable. Discussion in private chat, not so much zone/team chat should remain RPG.
This would give those of us who wish to be more serious an adequate environment to do so and those of us who want to by joyous gypsies an equal opportunity to do so. Other than the immersion style, the servers would be identical.
It is the only logical solution.
Yes hopefully they are listening very good. It is becoming clear that one way or the other what they decide will have a dramatic impact on the community because a vocal group of people seem unwilling to compromise. A distinction should be made. The debate isn't really about civilian clothes as much as it is about the bikinis and swimsuits.
People need to start looking at the big picture when it comes to swimwear. This is becoming a divisive issue and one thing companies do not like are things that divide their customer base. A game like STO that has already disappointed people and lost subscribers because it wasn't immersive enough, too buggy, lack of content, etc. does not need another load of controversy to throw on top of the pile. The result ends up being no swimsuits for anybody anywhere and that would be a shame.
One positive thing though it's good that this debate is happening now before people throw a lot of their hard earned money (well at least non-lifers) into a game that advertises itself as Star Trek only to find out Cryptic and their bosses didn't really give a rat's behind about ST like they have said in interviews, they just used the franchise it to lure people in to take their $$. Today it's swimwear tomorrow it will be 'why can't Feds have Klingon ships?' or 'why can't I be a Romulan serving in the Klingon Empire?' because 'I want do be able to do anything!' How they decide to come down on this should give people insight to how they will approach those kinds of things in the future.
As much as I understand this aversion to wanting to preserve ST integrity and not wanting to see nude people running around I think this can be solved by just making it unwise to wear your off-duty or casual wear items on missions. If a 5-10% damage susceptibility margin was added if you wore non-reg clothing than it would discourage the behavior the OP is talking about.
Let's observe:
1. If you go to play infected and the engineer on your team is running around in swim trunks, you're probably not going to take too kindly to him if you know he's going to die much quicker. So I'd imagine most people would say "Hey, put some clothes on so you'll be worth your salt or you're kicked."
2. You're in charge of the ship...no one is going to have the authority on a mission to tell you what to do or wear. So sure...why not wear a swimsuit...and then subsequently feel the burn of hot plasma?
3. As for bases, let's say you walk up to Admiral Quinn in a swimsuit...he scorns you....you don't address an admiral of superior standing in such a manner. If you have a mission to do then he won't talk to you normally unless you put some dang clothes on. NPC's could be used in this way to add a little control and keep the militaristic structure of Starfleet.
4. If you're just hanging out in the starbase then I think we should all remember that the ST is a much more tolerant world than the one we live in. People in ST were always much less judgmental, so personally I don't have a problem if you want to look good at the bar.
5. People usually get tired of running around scantily clad, even if it doesn't adversely affect them. Look in most MMO's and you'll see that most people tend to behave.:cool:
1) Starbases are NOT recreational facilities. Starbases HAVE recreational facilities, but they are also places of business.
2) We do not have two groups unwilling to compromise. We have ONE group unwilling to compromise.
Group 1: Sure, have swimwear. But let's keep it sensibly compartmentalized--uniforms in most public places, super-casual stuff in resorts/clubs/private ships and missions. This way, people can still wear whatever they want, but also no one's game experience has to be negatively impacted by someone in a thong running around with a fire extinguisher.
Group 2: I want to wear a thong in SB1. I won't admit that, and I'll claim it's not about that, but the fact is that this is the ONLY reason not to forbid thongs in SB1. If I can't where it ANYWHERE and EVERYWHERE, it's "limiting my freedom." You can't limit my expression of how I feel my character ought to look, but I can surely limit YOUR experience in the game by dancing around you in a thong every single moment you're standing at a vendor. After all, if I CAN bother some "stuffy" RPer, I will, simply because this is the internet and I can.
Compromise has been offered -- have the bikini, but keep it in bikini land -- and is being refused by the very people who claim the "limitation" of keeping things in their proper places is somehow fascist. What's far more limiting is the notion that the only thing that counts as "freedom" is your ability to wave your banana hammock in front of everyone at all times.
1) Starbases are NOT recreational facilities. Starbases HAVE recreational facilities, but they are also places of business.
2) We do not have two groups unwilling to compromise. We have ONE group unwilling to compromise.
Group 1: Sure, have swimwear. But let's keep it sensibly compartmentalized--uniforms in most public places, super-casual stuff in resorts/clubs/private ships and missions. This way, people can still wear whatever they want, but also no one's game experience has to be negatively impacted by someone in a thong running around with a fire extinguisher.
Group 2: I want to wear a thong in SB1. I won't admit that, and I'll claim it's not about that, but the fact is that this is the ONLY reason not to forbid thongs in SB1. If I can't where it ANYWHERE and EVERYWHERE, it's "limiting my freedom." You can't limit my expression of how I feel my character ought to look, but I can surely limit YOUR experience in the game by dancing around you in a thong every single moment you're standing at a vendor. After all, if I CAN bother some "stuffy" RPer, I will, simply because this is the internet and I can.
Compromise has been offered -- have the bikini, but keep it in bikini land -- and is being refused by the very people who claim the "limitation" of keeping things in their proper places is somehow fascist. What's far more limiting is the notion that the only thing that counts as "freedom" is your ability to wave your banana hammock in front of everyone at all times.
1) Starbases are NOT recreational facilities. Starbases HAVE recreational facilities, but they are also places of business.
2) We do not have two groups unwilling to compromise. We have ONE group unwilling to compromise.
Group 1: Sure, have swimwear. But let's keep it sensibly compartmentalized--uniforms in most public places, super-casual stuff in resorts/clubs/private ships and missions. This way, people can still wear whatever they want, but also no one's game experience has to be negatively impacted by someone in a thong running around with a fire extinguisher.
Group 2: I want to wear a thong in SB1. I won't admit that, and I'll claim it's not about that, but the fact is that this is the ONLY reason not to forbid thongs in SB1. If I can't where it ANYWHERE and EVERYWHERE, it's "limiting my freedom." You can't limit my expression of how I feel my character ought to look, but I can surely limit YOUR experience in the game by dancing around you in a thong every single moment you're standing at a vendor. After all, if I CAN bother some "stuffy" RPer, I will, simply because this is the internet and I can.
Compromise has been offered -- have the bikini, but keep it in bikini land -- and is being refused by the very people who claim the "limitation" of keeping things in their proper places is somehow fascist. What's far more limiting is the notion that the only thing that counts as "freedom" is your ability to wave your banana hammock in front of everyone at all times.
Just have casual clothing, including thongs and boxer briefs for recreational areas of the game, on certain episodes when need be as part of the plot and uniforms for all other on-duty stuff. I'm sure the game can be configured to maintain players within these guidelines.
His post did make some very good points. Except he neglected to mention that Devs have to take into account Griefers..
If the worst griefing in STO is having some women in bikinis around the place.. I say "bring it".
We've got Orion Slave girls all over the place as NPC's.. all wearing almost nothing.. and you're worried that a few people might walk past you "on their way back to their quarters from the holodeck" in a swimsuit?
Seriously.. where's the harm?
P.S. when do Orion Female player characters get access to clothing "more befitting an Orion female" anyways?
This is currently a topic of heated debate internally.
One side says that we must never allow casual wear on missions.
The other side says never restrict a player's costume choices.
I'm very curious to see what you think and what your arguments are for either side (or any compromises)
Well, personally, I don't have any issue with Captain's in speedos... These are 'digital cartoon people' and as such I don't see them in a sexual capacity.
A fleetmate and I were just discussing "compromises" for the "problem" and he came up with:
If you allow captains to wear "Risa-Wear" anywhere, swimsuits specifically, don't allow them to equip shields or kits... That way people can wear their outfits anywhere, but they're definitely at a disadvantage if they try to fight that way. Not really gonna help with having them run around a Starbase.. but... I don't see the problem with that.
If the worst griefing in STO is having some women in bikinis around the place.. I say "bring it".
We've got Orion Slave girls all over the place as NPC's.. all wearing almost nothing.. and you're worried that a few people might walk past you "on their way back to their quarters from the holodeck" in a swimsuit?
Seriously.. where's the harm?
P.S. when do Orion Female player characters get access to clothing "more befitting an Orion female" anyways?
1.) Those are NPCs and the only place you see them all dressed in swimsuits is Risa with the execption of the ONE NPC in DS9. DS9 is like the wild wild west of Star Trek as you can witness theres Klingons, Romulans and others who are generally unfriendly with the Feds hanging out there. Its a more laxed area.
2.) Its one thing for a random player running around half naked. Its another when theres hordes of them. And after playing other MMOs. I know its going to be hordes of players, not individuals, atleast until it gets boring. But it wont get boring for a good while. And the ONLY reason someone wants to run around SpaceDock in a Bikini would be to grief someone.
I dont believe for a second anyone just feels its the way they play their character to be in a bikini all the time. A few people will get a kick out of it because of their female toons and BOs. But a good majority of them will do it just because they have nothing better to do then to target those that find it the most annoying.
Yes, I said it and I mean it! No Risa swimwear, for the love of Bruddah!
Or, if you do add them, make them available ONLY on Risa.
The last thing any of us want is Sol station, K-7 or DS9 running amuck with bikini-clad, phaser totin space cowboys and cowgirls in their TRIBBLE floss and banana hammocks flailing about!
Please . Dont let this happen
You know TOS, TNG, DS9, V, and Enterprise all had their casual, naked, or ripped shirt moments. Every series met the censorship standards for the 1960s. I really don't see the big deal.
I respect your idea, but to be clear it doesn't really fly with any MMORPG I've seen in 7 years of playing or the cannon of the IP people think they are defending here.
Wouldn't it be better to ask for a filter to simply have people's clothing all be a default uniform client side? People who think all Klingons should look Klingon could have this benefit from the same function.
If you don't like cussing there is a profanty filter. A low cost to program, client side uniform / appearance default filter might be the real solution here.
Even if there were a surge of bikini clad people, it would die down in a week or two when it gets old. There really isn't anything to argue about.
You are all trying to make every species in the galaxy conform to your humanocentric Victorian standards. Have you considered what it must be like, for an alien andorian hottie who grew up in an ice cave?
Your federation space stations are downright boiling for her. Let her be comfortable at least, since she has to conform to your human standards of social etiquette and secular humanist values.
It's not enough that she has to act like you? You want her to dress like you too, despite how uncomfortably hot the space stations are!
That's just cultural imperialism, plain and simple.
Comments
Which goes to show it's up to the discretion of the Captain to decide what flies and what doesn't. Also, again, Since each ship has it's own uniform what's to say that bikini you have such a problem with isn't standard dress on that ship.
So I can't be like Kirk or even Picard sometimes and give Starfleet the finger as I go to save my hot number one when they order me to leave her behind?
You have to draw the line somewheres. This is an IP that Cryptic has to bend to. CBS would have their backsides if things got out of hand.
There's a pretty obvious difference between someone having their experience in an STO mission spoiled by someone running around in a speedo and said incident actually ruining their entire RL day. And I think you're probably more than capable of distinguishing between the two results. Let's not blow things out of proportion in an attempt to make a point.
In your opinion. And your particular mindset on this is exactly why we end up having less options available to us in games. I'll say what many an MMO developer has probably thought but not said aloud: why do players always have to ruin everything?
That doesn't negate my argument, what if you are a particularly roguish Captain who breaks the rules when he/she feels it's worth it?
Theres a third side that is only asking for a light restriction that keeps things appropriate. Im not for keeping "off duty" uniforms as conservative as possible. Hell, Id like to see some more liberal uniforms in certian areas. But I have to look at this as a point of compromise. Im Pro-Community. And the only way Im going to accept swimwear (even though I want it just like those asking for it) is if its kept from being used as a tool to further annoy other players.
Then we shouldn't be given the ability to hide our armor or kits. If I can't see them they don't exist.
Im not saying restrict off duty uniforms as a whole. Im saying restrict swimwear to places like Risa...thats it. Anything else, I dont care. Im ex military...You didnt see EVERYONE wearing uniforms on a base. When you were off duty it didnt mean you had to be off post to wear civilian attire. So I could careless someones wearing off duty uniforms at SOL, K7 or DS9. But at the same time, those bases I lived on did have restrictions on what was and wasnt appropriate. Granted this is a game and not the military, the point Im tryin to make is. I just want a fair compromise for both parties. Not just one swift decision that favors one side or the other.
Fixed that for you, Frosty.
I agree with this 100%.
His post did make some very good points. Except he neglected to mention that Devs have to take into account Griefers...When it comes to those bikinis, its a fact that there will be people who wear them JUST SO they annoy people. While we cant easily tell them apart from those just wearing them for fun. The Devs have to look ahead and create a boundary before they open up that can of worms. When does it become too much? When does it become inappropriate?
And I could careless if it means more work for the Devs...or more bugs. Its their jobs to program things. Its their jobs to fix bugs...If theyre that lazy, that they dont want to do the work to keep things incheck and would rather just let things go. Then Id rather cancel my subscription. Yes I dont mean jacksquat to them. But hey, at that point Im only worried about my ability to find something enjoyable in that game. And if the Devs are willing to take shortcuts because they just dont feel like working on that aspect of the game. Well I dont feel like paying them for taking that shortcut.
What we really have is This is a space MMO vs This is Star Trek
(and if I see ONE This is Sparta joke well, you cant. Because I just used it up - so HA! :P)
The sector icons I can live with because whos to say that isnt real space but a holographic display showing our current trajectory and intended destination? Of course thered be milestone markers, etc.
I am of the school of thought that this is Star Trek. It has universal rules (no pun intended) and established and well documented history. I literally cringe at the thought of materializing in DS9 only to be affronted by bikini-clad idiots. My only option, however, would be to ignore it.
Unless and I hope the Devs are listening we can create an RPG only server. Violations of the RP immersion, such as dancing on the admirals desk, would be reportable. Discussion in private chat, not so much zone/team chat should remain RPG.
This would give those of us who wish to be more serious an adequate environment to do so and those of us who want to by joyous gypsies an equal opportunity to do so. Other than the immersion style, the servers would be identical.
It is the only logical solution.
I think the fear of peeps running in Spacedock, Borg raids, DS9, etc with nothing but "Risa Casualwear" is totally unwarranted. Aside from STO, I also play Champions and prior to that, SWG. Now we all know how robust the character creation of Champions is, so much so there is even a rule to not recreate copyrighted characters since you can really mimic one very accurately. And in SWG, the introduction of the "appearance tab" can allow you to wear armour for stats, but "normal clothing for appearances".
If you log in either Champions or SWG right now at any given time, do you see nothing but a flood of female characters wearing nothing but bikinis, including the iconic Princess Leia bikini? I don't think so. Maybe the odd one here and there but its hardly noticeable or game breaking. So if Risa Casual wear is allowed, maybe a few will choose to wear them in public places or raids, but I doubt it would be so crazy that it would affect anyone emotionally.
There is nothing offensive about the existing NPCs right now that show Risa Casual Wear anyway, and like it or not, it is part of the lore (they even parodied the captain having his shirt taken off in Galaxy Quest!!!) so no worries about breaking anything.
If immersion breaking is the fear, then why aren't the starfleet uniforms more standardized? I think there is more potential to break immersion today by having existing characters wear outlandishly coloured Starfleet uniform that breaks the supposed norm.
1. Good point, Scantly clad women have no place in Quarks what so ever.
2. Great Idea! The idea of an RP and a general server is just proven enough to work.
3. Does anybody honestly think Cryptic will put bikinis in STO? We have asked for skirts and what they delivered was an ankle length "robe" bottom that would make the most conservative feel over dressed.
Well I'm just saying, what if I'm going to Vulcan and decide that swimsuits are the best protection from heatstroke? I think we might as well be able to wear it everywhere, if it bothers people so much make a slider or something: If someone is wearing a swimsuit then it just makes it appear to be a regular starfleet uniform to you... seeing as Cryptic likes sliders.
And to address people arguing about distractions... Aren't miniskirts a distraction too then?
I love this post! Made me LOL.
Again, simplest solution I can see:
- Regulation Starfleet Uniform. (Required for promotions and specific missions designed to require it in the future.)
- Non-Regulation Business Casual. (This is what we have on the test server, it's a separate slot for Captains and an option for BOs ***RIGHT NOW ON THE TEST SERVER, ABOUT TO GO LIVE***. I'd make this an option for all but the most formal of missions and extend it to things like Ferengi business suits and Bajoran militia outfits and bomber jacket ensembles seeing as how we have examples of these types of clothes being worn, on duty and manning stations, by Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Picard, Data, Troi, Wesley, Riker, Quark, Nog, Rom, Odo, Kira, Sisko, Jake, Neelix, Kes, Seven of Nine and the entire NX-01 crew.)
FYI: There IS a variable which tracks what type of uniform you're wearing, if you haven't checked it out on Tribble.
- Recreational Wear. (CRYPTIC HAS NOT DESIGNED ANYTHING LIKE THIS FOR PLAYERS YET. This should be a separate type and should restrict your activities a bit. This should be stuff like the NX-01 skivvies, Orion Slave Girl costumes, Sherlock Holmes, Horatio Hornblower nautical wear, DS9 Baseball uniforms, etc. This stuff is SILLY and is NEVER worn on duty if you can help it. I'd propose undercover missions that may call for this.)
In terms of where you can wear it, Starbases ARE recreational facilities so ALL costumes make sense there. There's a dance club in the middle of Starbase 1. Ships, even in wartime, have civilian compliments and shipboard recreation. I think what would make the most sense is if you just don't allow people to enter missions in anything below Business Casual. You can wear whatever you want, wherever you want... But you need to at least wear semi-professional attire to do a mission there. And some quests will require you to change into uniform to complete, which takes all of a second.
Yes hopefully they are listening very good. It is becoming clear that one way or the other what they decide will have a dramatic impact on the community because a vocal group of people seem unwilling to compromise. A distinction should be made. The debate isn't really about civilian clothes as much as it is about the bikinis and swimsuits.
People need to start looking at the big picture when it comes to swimwear. This is becoming a divisive issue and one thing companies do not like are things that divide their customer base. A game like STO that has already disappointed people and lost subscribers because it wasn't immersive enough, too buggy, lack of content, etc. does not need another load of controversy to throw on top of the pile. The result ends up being no swimsuits for anybody anywhere and that would be a shame.
One positive thing though it's good that this debate is happening now before people throw a lot of their hard earned money (well at least non-lifers) into a game that advertises itself as Star Trek only to find out Cryptic and their bosses didn't really give a rat's behind about ST like they have said in interviews, they just used the franchise it to lure people in to take their $$. Today it's swimwear tomorrow it will be 'why can't Feds have Klingon ships?' or 'why can't I be a Romulan serving in the Klingon Empire?' because 'I want do be able to do anything!' How they decide to come down on this should give people insight to how they will approach those kinds of things in the future.
Let's observe:
1. If you go to play infected and the engineer on your team is running around in swim trunks, you're probably not going to take too kindly to him if you know he's going to die much quicker. So I'd imagine most people would say "Hey, put some clothes on so you'll be worth your salt or you're kicked."
2. You're in charge of the ship...no one is going to have the authority on a mission to tell you what to do or wear. So sure...why not wear a swimsuit...and then subsequently feel the burn of hot plasma?
3. As for bases, let's say you walk up to Admiral Quinn in a swimsuit...he scorns you....you don't address an admiral of superior standing in such a manner. If you have a mission to do then he won't talk to you normally unless you put some dang clothes on. NPC's could be used in this way to add a little control and keep the militaristic structure of Starfleet.
4. If you're just hanging out in the starbase then I think we should all remember that the ST is a much more tolerant world than the one we live in. People in ST were always much less judgmental, so personally I don't have a problem if you want to look good at the bar.
5. People usually get tired of running around scantily clad, even if it doesn't adversely affect them. Look in most MMO's and you'll see that most people tend to behave.:cool:
2) We do not have two groups unwilling to compromise. We have ONE group unwilling to compromise.
Group 1: Sure, have swimwear. But let's keep it sensibly compartmentalized--uniforms in most public places, super-casual stuff in resorts/clubs/private ships and missions. This way, people can still wear whatever they want, but also no one's game experience has to be negatively impacted by someone in a thong running around with a fire extinguisher.
Group 2: I want to wear a thong in SB1. I won't admit that, and I'll claim it's not about that, but the fact is that this is the ONLY reason not to forbid thongs in SB1. If I can't where it ANYWHERE and EVERYWHERE, it's "limiting my freedom." You can't limit my expression of how I feel my character ought to look, but I can surely limit YOUR experience in the game by dancing around you in a thong every single moment you're standing at a vendor. After all, if I CAN bother some "stuffy" RPer, I will, simply because this is the internet and I can.
Compromise has been offered -- have the bikini, but keep it in bikini land -- and is being refused by the very people who claim the "limitation" of keeping things in their proper places is somehow fascist. What's far more limiting is the notion that the only thing that counts as "freedom" is your ability to wave your banana hammock in front of everyone at all times.
Well said.
This pretty much sums it up very well said
If the worst griefing in STO is having some women in bikinis around the place.. I say "bring it".
We've got Orion Slave girls all over the place as NPC's.. all wearing almost nothing.. and you're worried that a few people might walk past you "on their way back to their quarters from the holodeck" in a swimsuit?
Seriously.. where's the harm?
P.S. when do Orion Female player characters get access to clothing "more befitting an Orion female" anyways?
Well, personally, I don't have any issue with Captain's in speedos... These are 'digital cartoon people' and as such I don't see them in a sexual capacity.
A fleetmate and I were just discussing "compromises" for the "problem" and he came up with:
If you allow captains to wear "Risa-Wear" anywhere, swimsuits specifically, don't allow them to equip shields or kits... That way people can wear their outfits anywhere, but they're definitely at a disadvantage if they try to fight that way. Not really gonna help with having them run around a Starbase.. but... I don't see the problem with that.
Saith,
Galan
1.) Those are NPCs and the only place you see them all dressed in swimsuits is Risa with the execption of the ONE NPC in DS9. DS9 is like the wild wild west of Star Trek as you can witness theres Klingons, Romulans and others who are generally unfriendly with the Feds hanging out there. Its a more laxed area.
2.) Its one thing for a random player running around half naked. Its another when theres hordes of them. And after playing other MMOs. I know its going to be hordes of players, not individuals, atleast until it gets boring. But it wont get boring for a good while. And the ONLY reason someone wants to run around SpaceDock in a Bikini would be to grief someone.
I dont believe for a second anyone just feels its the way they play their character to be in a bikini all the time. A few people will get a kick out of it because of their female toons and BOs. But a good majority of them will do it just because they have nothing better to do then to target those that find it the most annoying.
You know TOS, TNG, DS9, V, and Enterprise all had their casual, naked, or ripped shirt moments. Every series met the censorship standards for the 1960s. I really don't see the big deal.
I respect your idea, but to be clear it doesn't really fly with any MMORPG I've seen in 7 years of playing or the cannon of the IP people think they are defending here.
Wouldn't it be better to ask for a filter to simply have people's clothing all be a default uniform client side? People who think all Klingons should look Klingon could have this benefit from the same function.
If you don't like cussing there is a profanty filter. A low cost to program, client side uniform / appearance default filter might be the real solution here.
Even if there were a surge of bikini clad people, it would die down in a week or two when it gets old. There really isn't anything to argue about.
That's pretty funny.