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Klingon Content: PvE vs PvP
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PvE:
1 month to develop a map that we play through in a day. The enemies never change, so if you've done it once, you've seen everything it will ever have to offer you.
PvP:
1 month to develop a map that we can play hundreds of times with different results because the enemies are always different.
I don't understand the business sense in continuing to develop Klingon PvE. It will always take them ages to design, implement and test a mission that most of us will probably do somewhere between 0-5 times before we're bored with it. PvP content has so much more replayability.
1 month to develop a map that we play through in a day. The enemies never change, so if you've done it once, you've seen everything it will ever have to offer you.
PvP:
1 month to develop a map that we can play hundreds of times with different results because the enemies are always different.
I don't understand the business sense in continuing to develop Klingon PvE. It will always take them ages to design, implement and test a mission that most of us will probably do somewhere between 0-5 times before we're bored with it. PvP content has so much more replayability.
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Most of our fleet is gone. Unsubbed and the lifers are playing other games already.
Most Feds I have talked to are not playing a Klink because of the exp nerfs and no content other than 3 nebulas to grind endlessly.
They honestly need more pve content and new interesting pvp maps.
The raidisode is not what was needed. I carrot for some.
Quoted for truth. It's lthe same concept with fighting and first person shooter games. I know many people that own Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 and have never completed the campaign mode even once; they strictly play online only.
Or the Super Smash Bros franchise. I know several people that have not even touched the single story mode once, though it is obvious that the programmers are trying to put much more effort into developing the story mode through each new installment.
Instead of changing the KDF faction to resemble more of a Federation variant by developing PvE content, it would be interesting if the PVP aspects of the KDF faction were developed instead.
a) You only like PvE content and you've done it all so you put the game on a shelf and never play it again.
b) You go online and play the PvP maps over and over again possibly for months.
I see Klingon content going the same way.
Cryptic can either supply us with a steady stream of PvE content which will we play through once or twice before we're bored with it or they can keep bringing us PvP content which we can play hundreds of times.
If they brought us some good new PvP maps they could shut down some of the existing ones to keep populations focused. I don't think we necessary need 3 deathmatch ground maps and 3 deathmatch space maps where the only difference is terrain. (Although they might be able to do something interesting if they strung the maps together for a bigger game...hmmm...kinda like how Team Fortress 2 will take one big map and divide it into several pieces to create like a mini-campaign, like the Hydro map.)
PvP, just like PvE, needs content to survive. Unlike PvE, though, PvP content has a great deal of replay value.
*buzz*
Wrong. Once they have enough interiors designed, they can slap them together to make new maps very quickly. And if your talking about planetary surfaces, their genesis system lets them instantly create random looks(think hitting random on the character creator). The longest part of making a PvE mission would be writing the dialogue and scripting the chain of events in the mission.
In my opinion the Klingons need pve more than anything right now. I find pvp to be the definition of boring, but that is just my preference as I tend to enjoy a good story more then the thrill of battle.
P.S I understand that the quoted view are your thoughts.
Agreed 100%, PvE is vital and it's something that needs to be added asap. Also the PvP is boring like hell after a few matches because it's always the same map.
The raidisode is a nice touch but there's not a lot of Klingon players doing it atm I've noticed. Hopefully the 45 day patch will hold on to it's promise of the future for this game is dark indeed.
The added content we've seen so far is pretty good for Fed but give Klings some love also Cryptic, this was supposed to be a fully souped out faction afterall.
i highly doubt it took them more than a month to write the dialogue and whatnot for the new PvE map/STF.
the story in the new PvE map would be enjoyable, if we had 45 levels of story leading up to it. i'm a little confused by it, actually, we've been PvP'ing Feds for 45 levels, and now-we're saving their Starbases? clearly there must be an Undine with Fed sympathies at the top of the Kling chain of command... but at aleast we're still killing Feds, assimilated or not
i think the point Slamz is making here is this-
we waited a month, for basically a re-skinned Khaless (we get one of those every new rank, tho) that has a PvE mission in it. and i'm glad they didn't go w/the name 'raid-isode' b/c it just....doesnt FEEL like a raid. minus the STF, it's the same PvE content we've always had-go here, destroy X enemy vessels. grind. we've been there, done that, and i think we can put that down. not much in replay value there.
the STF feels like a WoW 'dungeon' (doesnt come close to a WoW 'raid' tho), and a short one at that, what-2 bosses? even for an entry-level 'instance' (or 'dungeon'), it's par for the course. nothing innovative, if you'd have played the 5-man's from CO, you'd realize they did the same w/them (like lowering the shields in Manny's room) as far as group mechanics and co-ordination. the actual bosses, dont really have any special abilities or require strategy-just BIG PEWPEW. not much replay value here either.
to be honest, it actually reminds me of the Ice Mining Fleet Action (Yov'Bot? i think?) only indoors. survive the swarms of NPC's, hit your 'F'key, only now they've added the Captain & Manny.
in MMO's, end game content boils down to-PvP, or Raid progression. that's the real time-sink between Xpacs. crafting, dailies, etc., only help support one or the other (pvp or raiding) i myself, started as a Raider, then in downtime between raids, found PvP-a whole new game inside the game. and fell in love.
i was really hoping to enjoy both in STO, but i think PvP is actually still more enjoyable. if this STF (Infected) is Cryptic's idea of a 'raid', i think i'll pass. there are other games that do 'raids' better. STO needs PvE content w/replay value, and Infected just doesnt have it.
but, time will tell. i see 'Infected' as an entry-level end-cap instance, doubtless they will make more STF's like it (hopfully they will not be similar to the way Infected played out) but hopefully the real 'raids' are yet to come.
Klingon-only content, however, is a wholly different story, and does indeed have all the drawbacks and the likely poor effort/work ratio you described.
I guess they can do what WoW did, the Horde had basically the same quests as the alliance, however, instead of killing XX of A they had to kill XX of B, well that was after the Crossroads anyway, in most of the new expansions all the quests are the same Horde and Alliance.
P.S. Personally, I hope they put Klingon only quests as the post above me mentioned, would be a whole new experience instead of redoing the same stuff (i.e. same quest, text, planet)
in WoW a lot of the quests are the same for both factions, all the end game instances/raids are the same, b/c in the end the Horde and the Alliance are fighting the same enemy.
it's easy to see how Cryptic has already chosen the same path for dual-faction PvE in end-game content.
i would very much like to see the KLingon storyline, the Undine infiltrating the Gorn, and attempting to infiltrate the KLingons, as read in 'the path to 2409'. but instead, we the Borg invade and just b/c the Fed are fighting them, we have to fight them just to show the Fed's up.
literally, this is the motivation for the KLingon faction in 'Infected'. i DID read the Mission text lol
it would be great to play a dual-faction MMO where the opposing factions had seperate and unique storylines and missions, seperate and unique end-game content (instances and STF's-'raidisodes'), but i dont think STO is it. the only thing different and unique about Faction content is space combat, made possible by the Klingon cloak/ Carriers. the only place we get to see that is in PvP, and that's another reason why PvP in STO has more replay value than the PVE content.
Whole heartedly agre, the Klingon race have their own story as to where they are and how they got there, also how they their allies came to be accepted, let us look at both sides of the coin please. :cool:
As to me, well, the advantage with a little pve would simply be a break in levelling.
Of the ten members of my klingon fleet, only two are still playing of which i am one. Everyone else gave up very quickly. Thats a really bad rate of player loss and our fleet is basically dead. Even the GM stepped down and gave leadership away and the whole thing was his dream idea.
At around 120 xp per pvp match, as a late rank captain, i have done so many back to back matches that i have started doing mad things to break the monotony. I have mounted attacks on the Federation space station, have done ground maps purely using a rifle butt and have at times just given up and waited for the whole thing to end.
Wins give the same xp, more or less, as losses, so it is a rare game that interests me enough to do more than guard a resource point. The only objective is to win or lose quickly, which is sad.
If, however, i got some sort of mission just to break the monotony, that would really help me keep an interest. Alternatively, i would want some free-fire open world pvp. I want to stalk and compete with enemy ships, not just fight them in an arena....i left warcraft because that was all the pvp they offered....and now i get that here (
I just don't like hearing about episodic PvE content for Klingons when our PvP content is so ghetto. If we were sitting pretty on a handful of awesome, in-depth PvP maps then hey, I'd probably be all for seeing some better PvE content. But as it is, our PvP content is bare bones, basic stuff -- short, meaningless matches.
I very much want to see improved PvP content before I see episodic PvE content.
I understand where you are coming from as a PVP'er, however, as I do not PVP I would like to see some more PVE content, I left Aion (as mentioned earlier) as I'm not a PVP'er and thought (because the was no real explanation at launch) that PVPVE meant both PVP and PVE, but it didn't, so more episodic PVE quests please.
I know for some of us that got general when there was tons of pvpers enjoyed the game and how w e lvled , but Im telling you as someone tring to lvl a alt right now.............OMG I dont even have the right words to tell you the pain it is.There is just no games , you can get like 1 game every 2 sometimes 3 hours.
So to all the feds asking where are the klingons at T 5? I found them they are stuck at lvl 6.......and no way to lvl except some fake pve expanse.:rolleyes:
I know where you are coming from, really I do. But the reality is that pvp in this game is terrible. I mean really really terrible. Anything based on or derived from it, is doomed to be terrible too. The PVE in the game is at least passable. The PVP was not good enough to keep anyones interest as it was, due to it sucking so bad, which is why we have a population problem anyway. You do not build onto a rotten house and foundation. You demolish it and build an entirely new one. If you want the klingons to be a pvp faction, it can't be with this kind (the current setup) of pvp.
They obviously are not redoing the pvp system in the near future, so PVE really is our best bet to getting anyone on the faction and keeping them here.
Nice analogy regarding the house and foundation, well said
I was working on my klingon but got disheartened. Having to wait 10 minutes for pvp maps just to level is a bit much. Not to mention with the recent mass exodus now you have to wait 10 minutes for absolutely nothing. I logged in Kelmvor yesterday, finally got into a pvp arena. Me and one other individual were there on the same team. The two of us waited an eternity and not another single player showed up. This was a space house battle no less.
I went to my first warzone where you have decrypt the listening stations then destroy the repair cubes. I was in the process of doing this when i got attacked by another kingonship and destroyed in the process since i was now fighting several cube droids and now had to fend off another klingonship at the same time. This surprised me. On the federation side it is different. You complete the map then seem to warp into a map where klingons will appear. Needless to say i learned quickly after rereading the mission journal. At first I didn't read it due to i believed to be the exact same as the fed side. However when i logged back in i noticed other ships that where yellow but did not attack them if they were engaged in fighting nodes, encrypting or blowing up the repair modules.
In fact me and that other yellow ship flew around just doing what we needed to do and didn't bother each other. I guess both realizing we need to level without being griefed. I only engaged if another ship logged in and attacked me. Which only happened once. He snuck up and destroyed me while fighting borg npc's and i took my revenge after.
I understand the logic but now i have to try and level up worrying about federation ships and other klingon ships. This sets up a lot of griefing in my opionion. I maybe just too nice but i remember the days of Eq1, where i joined the game, started out as a newb and a high level character or two would enter and take over the zone for hours. You couldn't level, they would hold the zone hostage for hours on end and in many cases just stand over your corpse and kill you so many times in a row you just had to log out.
I don't mind pvp, even if i die. I don't even mind dying a few times because there is a learning curve in every game. What i do mind is having my playtime monopolized for hours on end. Which I see is perfectly cappable of happing since the ships that can engage you can be what as much as ten level highers. I am running around leveling and next i'm attacked by a +6 ship. I am l6 being attacked by an LC0 who could possibly grief people for hours?
No wonder most are not willing to play the klingon side. Only the most hardcore pvpr's would endure that bs. Which is one of the reasons I actually did like wow. Besides the cartoonish characters and limited race, class options. I atleast liked the fact I could level in peace and only enter pvp when I so choose. Either by entering battlgrounds, going to a pvp server, flagging myself, duels. Even If i lost the responsibility was my own, I was the one that entered the area in the first place. I knew what i was getting into by entering that area and could engage in both pvp contenct and level in peace without being griefed for hours.
Anyway this is long enough. I will close with this. I don't mind entering pvp areas even if it meant fighting other klinks, now that i have been properly educated. However their has to be a proper mix of both. This way i know i also have an alternative method should i enter a war zone and be unsuccesful. Least there is more content so i can go do something else and come back to the war zone later when I am a bit stronger or even if i don't i can try again later, without having my time monoplized hours on end.
For STO to survive and for your to have a dynamic, thriving community you have to climb out of that dark tunnel, look into the daylight and see STO as more then your little PvP heaven.
THE OP is not saying sacrifice Fed PVE for PVP. He is saying stop wasting time on klingon PVE. Give us PVP which is why we're playing the game. The majority of the best selling PC games were pvp or had SIGNFICANT pvp elements. STO is lacking in that department.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PC_video_games
Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2 (not on list yet, but already top seller)
* The Sims (16 million shipped)[1]
* The Sims 2 (13 million)[2]
o The Sims 2: Pets [expansion pack] (5.6 million)[3]
o The Sims 2: Seasons [expansion pack] (1 million)[3]
* StarCraft (11 million)[4]
* Half-Life (9.3 million,[5][6] may include PS2 version)
o Half-Life: Opposing Force [expansion pack] (1.1 million)[5][6]
* Half-Life 2 (6.5 million,[5][6] may include Xbox version but does not include Steam sales)
* Myst (6 million)[7]
* SimCity 3000 (5 million; includes Sim City 3000 Unlimited edition)[8]
* Doom (5 million)[9]
* The Sims 3 ( 5.9 million, includes PC and Mac sales)[10]
o The Sims 3: World Adventures [expansion pack] (1.2 million pre-order)
* Riven (4.5 million)[11]
* Battlefield 1942 (4.39 million BF1942 2.47 million, BF1942:RTR 0.64 million, BF1942:SW 0.49 million, BF Deluxe 0.37 million, BF Anthology 0.42 million)[12]
* Counter-Strike (4.2 million,[5][6])
* Cossacks: European Wars (4 million)[13]
* Diablo II (4 million)[14]
o Diablo II: Lord of Destruction [expansion pack] (1 million;[14] 2 million shipped)[14]
* Populous (4 million)[15][16]
* Where in the World Is Carmen Sandiego? (4 million) [17]
* RollerCoaster Tycoon (4 million in North America)[18]
* Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War (4 million including expansions)[19]
* Battlefield 2 (3.57 million BF2 2.25 million,BF2:SF 0.8 million,BF2:EF 0.2 million,BF2:AF 0.13 million,BF2 Deluxe 0.1 million,BF2 Complete Collection 0.09 million)[12]
* Doom 3 (3.5 million)[20]
* EverQuest (3.5 million)[21]
* Theme Park (3.5 million)[16]
* Age of Empires (3 million)[22]
o Age of Empires: The Rise of Rome [expansion pack] (1 million)[22]
* Civilization IV (3 million,[23] may include Mac OS X version)
* Command & Conquer: Red Alert (3 million)[24]
* Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos (3 million)[25]
The problem here is your compaireing Apples to oranges. True FPS games you want to PvP. I am currently playing AvP for the X-box and it rocks on line, I have not even compleated the "PvE" story lines for the Alien or the Marine, just the Preditor. But when im going to pick up a FPS, im already expecting that most of the content is going to be PVP. But when you make a MMO heavy pvp centerd, it will already fail; look at the examples, AoC (age of conan), Aion, Pirates of the Burning sea, the list goes on. MMOs should have both PVP and PVE for all factions and races.
Now I currently love my Klingon, but I only play him once every 2 weeks or so. Im ether going to study (Chem 212 is a *****) or play AvP. No matter how much pvp they will try to pump into a MMO it will never meet a FPS. If I want to kill other players only im going to chose a FPS. But If I want a game where I feel like the character more im going to pick a MMO or RPG...one of the best games I have ever played was a FPS/RPG, but it had no PVP and that was Fallout 3 (all the fallout games rocked and I started playing with the first one when I was 15 years old).
EDIT: To the poster above...most the games you cited are not MMOS they are FPS, I dont know where people get the idea that their should be heavy PVP in a MMO, just because FPS games exist. Like stated above FPS bread and butter is PVP, MMOs should not try to compeat with that....theirs is story-line and customization (now im not saying that MMOS should not have pvp, and that FPS should not have custom items, im just saying they both should stick at what they are good at).
Granted, but we are talking MMO and if I remember properly the top MMO has a mix of both PVE and PVP, that being World of Warcraft, and unlike other MMO's (STO excluded) it sees the value (dollars) catering for both.
The PvP in this game is good in the sense that the basic mechanics are sound. The actual mechanics of players fighting each other in ground combat could use tweaking but it's good. The actual mechanics of ships fighting ships is something I find enjoyable.
What sucks is the content: 5v5 deathmatches and tiny capture-and-hold maps where you can fly across the whole thing in just a few seconds. It's very, very shallow, basic arena combat. Just like Kahless Expanse is terrible PvE content because it's nothing but a bland room of random killing, Cracked Planet is terrible PvP content for the exact same reason.
PvP needs real content.
It needs bigger maps, connected maps, things that move from area to area and take more than 15 minutes to do.
It needs story and progression.
Building good PvP content is a lot like building good PvE content. So I don't want to hear about Cryptic spending a lot of time building episodic PvE content for Klingons when they've barely spent time at all on our PvP content. Build us some REAL PvP content and then let's talk again about whether or not the PvP sucks.
And I could answer the same "build some real PVE content and then we can talk about whether PVE sucks", it is not good looking at this from one perspective though, most people either want PVP as that's all they are really interested in or they want PVE for the same reason, a GOOD game needs a mix of both so all parties are catered for and the company profits.
There's more time and effort put into the first 10 levels of Fed PvE content than was put into the whole of Klingon PvP content.
Maybe giving us more PvE will help but it's missing the point -- PvE players are already happily playing as Feds. PvP players are quitting because the promised PvP faction has almost no PvP content.
Whatever happened to "house battles", too?? I had envisioned actual Houses that you had to sign up with permanently and regular KvK combat. Instead all it turned out to be was the FvK maps with a name change. Cryptic dropped the ball on House vs House content entirely.