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If GMs won't answer, Atari will...

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited February 2010 in Star Trek Online General Discussion
All of the people I have spoken with who have placed GM tickets have told me that they have never received a reply from the GMs. Sometime this is expected (ie tech support, bug reports, etc). However, when someone submits a ticket asking about the Code of Conduct or an unfair warning, the GMs should respond. I am told they do not.

Atari does. If you go to: http://www.atari.com/support/contact they will respond and look into the matter for you. I hope that Atari knows how much we appreciate their knowing that customer communication is just good business.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Interesting, I thought it had something to do with the amount of tickets Cryptic receives.
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    JonathanMax wrote:
    Interesting, I thought it had something to do with the amount of tickets Cryptic receives.

    It might. If so, they've made tons of money in a bad economy, they can afford to hire more GMs.
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    "unfair warning"? sounds to me like you dropped the n-word in a tell.

    you should be banned!!
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    pmcubed wrote:
    "unfair warning"? sounds to me like you dropped the n-word in a tell.

    you should be banned!!

    I did not. But I agree, they should absolutely ban for hatespeech in any form.
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Hmmm "unfair warnings" hmmm, I wonder where I've heard that before. Oh wait, oh-so "competent" GMs and mods vaguely using the term "trolling" and handing out infractions. Like as in labeling stuff they don't like "trolling" :rolleyes:
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Considering I got an infraction for using the word 'TRIBBLE' (context as in: "people who brag in pvp are TRIBBLE" as an offhand remark, not even at a specific person), I'd say their mods are smoking something.

    OH NO I USED THE WORD TRIBBLE TWICE I'M HEADING FOR THE BAN TRAIN AGAIN. OH NO THREE. THEY'RE COMING FOR ME SAVE YOURSE
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Lol, yes with convenient one-way communications so they can say things to you without you being able to respond. As if, you work for them.

    Fortunately, they have a "home office" that cares.
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Thank you very much for this information, Open Source.

    I, too, received an infraction much earlier today for a post that I had made.

    After much careful inspection of the Forum TOS, I found that I had in no way, shape or form infringed upon any of their rules. I therefore sent off a PM requesting the appeals process. That PM was completely ignored.

    As our accounts are paid accounts, and a stack up of these "infringements" can cause a suspension of service, that amounts up to a fiscal penalty for infractions. As we have a legal contract with Cryptic after the exchange of funds, I believe we are entitled to an appeals service, especially if we can prove that the infraction penalty was not valid.

    An appeals process is put in place to avoid human error, which can of course happen with single person processes.

    As we have no redress to appeal through the current Cryptic system, I was pleased to use your link above to send off an appeal to their parent company in this endeavour. Hopefully they'll take our grievances a little more seriously. All in all, considering Cryptic would like us all to continue paying our monthly subs, I would have thought they would have done a little more to put this type of system in place. I daren't say too much more in case I receive yet another infraction for daring to speak out :)
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Dominatus wrote: »
    Thank you very much for this information, Open Source.

    I, too, received an infraction much earlier today for a post that I had made.

    After much careful inspection of the Forum TOS, I found that I had in no way, shape or form infringed upon any of their rules. I therefore sent off a PM requesting the appeals process. That PM was completely ignored.

    As our accounts are paid accounts, and a stack up of these "infringements" can cause a suspension of service, that amounts up to a fiscal penalty for infractions. As we have a legal contract with Cryptic after the exchange of funds, I believe we are entitled to an appeals service, especially if we can prove that the infraction penalty was not valid.

    An appeals process is put in place to avoid human error, which can of course happen with single person processes.

    As we have no redress to appeal through the current Cryptic system, I was pleased to use your link above to send off an appeal to their parent company in this endeavour. Hopefully they'll take our grievances a little more seriously. All in all, considering Cryptic would like us all to continue paying our monthly subs, I would have thought they would have done a little more to put this type of system in place. I daren't say too much more in case I receive yet another infraction for daring to speak out :)

    I could be wrong, but I believe no amount of forum infractions will keep you from playing the game, only from posting on the forums.

    So there's no fiscal penalty for infractions. You're not paying to play the forums.

    That said, yes, there should be some appeals process for forum moderation.
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Dominatus wrote: »
    Thank you very much for this information, Open Source.

    I, too, received an infraction much earlier today for a post that I had made.

    After much careful inspection of the Forum TOS, I found that I had in no way, shape or form infringed upon any of their rules. I therefore sent off a PM requesting the appeals process. That PM was completely ignored.

    As our accounts are paid accounts, and a stack up of these "infringements" can cause a suspension of service, that amounts up to a fiscal penalty for infractions. As we have a legal contract with Cryptic after the exchange of funds, I believe we are entitled to an appeals service, especially if we can prove that the infraction penalty was not valid.

    An appeals process is put in place to avoid human error, which can of course happen with single person processes.

    As we have no redress to appeal through the current Cryptic system, I was pleased to use your link above to send off an appeal to their parent company in this endeavour. Hopefully they'll take our grievances a little more seriously. All in all, considering Cryptic would like us all to continue paying our monthly subs, I would have thought they would have done a little more to put this type of system in place. I daren't say too much more in case I receive yet another infraction for daring to speak out :)

    Hate to say this, but in business you're only entitled to what you contractually signed up for, and not one iota more. If I run a gym/health center, and "Bob" pays $100 a month to use the facility, he can use it. If he acts like a complete buffoon and my managers have to warn him to tone it down repeatedly, I'm within my rights--if I protected my rights to do so either contractually, or if the local laws let me--to limit his access even if he's paying. I can cut off his access to the public gym, and force him to just use the pool. If he doesn't like it, he can leave.

    We all agreed to Cryptic EULA/TOS's and it's all right there on the forums each time we post. We're here for better or worse at their pleasure, the same as with any game company.
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Dominatus wrote: »
    Thank you very much for this information, Open Source.

    I, too, received an infraction much earlier today for a post that I had made.

    After much careful inspection of the Forum TOS, I found that I had in no way, shape or form infringed upon any of their rules. I therefore sent off a PM requesting the appeals process. That PM was completely ignored.

    As our accounts are paid accounts, and a stack up of these "infringements" can cause a suspension of service, that amounts up to a fiscal penalty for infractions. As we have a legal contract with Cryptic after the exchange of funds, I believe we are entitled to an appeals service, especially if we can prove that the infraction penalty was not valid.

    An appeals process is put in place to avoid human error, which can of course happen with single person processes.

    As we have no redress to appeal through the current Cryptic system, I was pleased to use your link above to send off an appeal to their parent company in this endeavour. Hopefully they'll take our grievances a little more seriously. All in all, considering Cryptic would like us all to continue paying our monthly subs, I would have thought they would have done a little more to put this type of system in place. I daren't say too much more in case I receive yet another infraction for daring to speak out :)

    The Infraction numbers do fade away after time.... I have no idea how long that is tho... maybe 1 a week ?

    Also im pretty sure like someone said its mostly for the Froums....
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    OpenSorce wrote: »
    All of the people I have spoken with who have placed GM tickets have told me that they have never received a reply from the GMs. Sometime this is expected (ie tech support, bug reports, etc). However, when someone submits a ticket asking about the Code of Conduct or an unfair warning, the GMs should respond. I am told they do not.

    Atari does. If you go to: http://www.atari.com/support/contact they will respond and look into the matter for you. I hope that Atari knows how much we appreciate their knowing that customer communication is just good business.

    I'm a little confused as to what you want.

    Atari employees working under the subsidiary arm of Cryptic appear to run the forums and as such have the say on what is acceptable behaviour. The parent company and publisher are responsible for customer support and I expect that they refer technical support back to Cryptic's dev team. However the community is wholly down to the Cryptic community team and as usual on forums, moderators decisions are final although they do suggest that if you disagree with a decision you should contact the moderator in private ( Not open a ticket which is for game issues ). However depending upon which moderator you contact the result will be between complete ignorance or a reply sayong "I'm not talking about this matter any longer".

    I think Atari will see complaints about the forums as nothing more than the usual temper tantrums of the aggrieved.
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Pacifica- wrote:
    The Infraction numbers do fade away after time.... I have no idea how long that is tho... maybe 1 a week ?

    Also im pretty sure like someone said its mostly for the Froums....

    Infractions never go away because the mods that give you one even for something small or completely unfair are labeled as NEVER. Meaning they dont expire. Ever.

    And yes, they are ONLY for the forums. It will have absolutely no affect on your game. You can get into trouble in the game as well, but forum discipline and game discipline are two different things.

    Getting banned from the forums or getting infractions will not affect your game play.
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    CommanderReed wrote:
    Infractions never go away because the mods that give you one even for something small or completely unfair are labeled as NEVER. Meaning they dont expire. Ever.

    And yes, they are ONLY for the forums. It will have absolutely no affect on your game. You can get into trouble in the game as well, but forum discipline and game discipline are two different things.

    Getting banned from the forums or getting infractions will not affect your game play.

    I had gotten 2 like a week or so ago... and the automated GM messages said it will fade over time basicly... I cannot post exactly what it said cuz I deleted the messages a few days ago

    is there different types of infractions ? maybe I had gotten a lesser version of it
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Pacifica- wrote:
    I had gotten 2 like a week or so ago... and the automated GM messages said it will fade over time basicly... I cannot post exactly what it said cuz I deleted the messages a few days ago

    is there different types of infractions ? maybe I had gotten a lesser version of it

    Yea I got that message as well but its never the case. These things dont go away.

    Up at the top of the page here, you'll see a USER CP in orange. Click on that and you will see your infractions. And next to them you see that it expires NEVER.

    These infractions are supposed to expire after time, but they dont. Ever.
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Perhaps we can just chalk that one up under "Yet another STO thing that doesn't work as designed." :confused:
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    CommanderReed wrote:
    Yea I got that message as well but its never the case. These things dont go away.

    Up at the top of the page here, you'll see a USER CP in orange. Click on that and you will see your infractions. And next to them you see that it expires NEVER.

    These infractions are supposed to expire after time, but they dont. Ever.

    In every game I've played that gave out infractions, they ALL dissolved over time. Usually, it takes months...not weeks....to get rid of them.

    I wouldn't be surprised if that's different here, tho. This company seems to do things a little backwards sometimes.
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Just a guess that when there's a column header listing your infractions that says 'Expires', and the entry for the infraction says 'Never,' it never expires.

    Or it could be totally broken.
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Raath wrote: »
    In every game I've played that gave out infractions, they ALL disolved over time. Usually, it takes months...not weeks....to get rid of them.

    This game has been out for only 3 weeks, so how do you know they don't go away in STO?

    Well, for one because it says they will NEVER expire. In plain english.

    And for two, one of these infractions I got, I got months ago. And it has never gone away.

    The post was, " I like proving smug people wrong " and then I provided a link. And that was IT. Got an infraction. And it has never gone away. I believe that was 2 months ago or so.

    Not to mention the person I was responding to called me an idiot several times but he got no infraction of any kind. Fun stuff.
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    ZenBrillig wrote:
    Just a guess that when there's a column header listing your infractions that says 'Expires', and the entry for the infraction says 'Never,' it never expires.

    Or it could be totally broken.

    Why even mention the word expire if they never do?

    Do some infractions expire....but others don't?

    Cryptic really needs to make this more clear.
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Raath wrote: »
    Why even mention the word expire if they never do?

    Do some infractions expire....but others don't?

    Cryptic really needs to make this more clear.

    As far as I know, infractions never expire. Any of them. For any reason. Ever.
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    CommanderReed wrote:
    Well, for one because it says they will NEVER expire. In plain english.

    And for two, one of these infractions I got, I got months ago. And it has never gone away.

    The post was, " I like proving smug people wrong " and then I provided a link. And that was IT. Got an infraction. And it has never gone away. I believe that was 2 months ago or so.

    Not to mention the person I was responding to called me an idiot several times but he got no infraction of any kind. Fun stuff.

    Aye. I missed part of what you said (reading fast at work), and edited my post.
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Raath wrote: »
    In every game I've played that gave out infractions, they ALL dissolved over time. Usually, it takes months...not weeks....to get rid of them.

    I wouldn't be surprised if that's different here, tho. This company seems to do things a little backwards sometimes.


    Well whatever happens elsewhere it appears that they don't get removed here (even if it clearly says they are given expiry limits depending upon the severity).

    http://www2.b3ta.com/host/creative/47549/1266971005/infractions.gif

    oh and because you are bound to ask, the infraction I got for "illegal drugs and other activities" was because an Irishman complained that me calling him 'Paddy' was racist and an American with no concept of UK culture believed him. Go figure.
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    ZootCadillac wrote:
    Well whatever happens elsewhere it appears that they don't get removed here (even if it clearly says they are given expiry limits depending upon the severity).

    http://www2.b3ta.com/host/creative/47549/1266971005/infractions.gif

    oh and because you are bound to ask, the infraction I got for "illegal drugs and other activities" was because an Irishman complained that me calling him 'Paddy' was racist and an American with no concept of UK culture believed him. Go figure.

    Well, I wasn't actually going ask...simply because discussing 'why' someone got an infraction.....is an infraction offense!!
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Raath wrote: »
    Well, I wasn't actually going ask...simply because discussing 'why' someone got an infraction.....is an infraction offense!!


    Yeah I know. It was my way of pointing out how ludicrous the infraction system is. "Illegal drugs" for using a nickname half the guys who drink in my local get called? Crazy.
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Anxiety wrote:
    Considering I got an infraction for using the word 'TRIBBLE' (context as in: "people who brag in pvp are TRIBBLE" as an offhand remark, not even at a specific person), I'd say their mods are smoking something.

    Hey! I got one for mentioning Sara Palin...maybe our infractions are related!

    Go ahead, give me another...I can stand to not play for 45 mins (or 3 days in RA terms).
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    as it doesnt appear a lotta ppl here have read this;

    http://forums.startrekonline.com/announcement.php?f=128&a=2
    http://forums.startrekonline.com/announcement.php?f=128&a=3
    The vBulletin infraction system identifies, assigns severity levels to and keeps track of violations of our forum rules. The primary purpose of this infraction system is to maximize the enjoyment of the users of our forums. To this end, we use the following point and penalty system:

    •5 to 9 points earn you a 3 day suspension.
    •10 to 19 points earn you a 7 day suspension.
    •20 or more points earn you a permanent ban.
    Cryptic Studios shall, in its sole discretion, identify infractions and assign the points value for each infraction. Cryptic Studios reserves the right in its sole discretion to change the point value assigned to any infraction at any time. The following list sets forth some of the more common types of infractions. This list is not intended to be a complete list of all infractions.

    I think they can do anything they really want. Legally.
    CommanderReed wrote:
    Yea I got that message as well but its never the case. These things dont go away.

    Up at the top of the page here, you'll see a USER CP in orange. Click on that and you will see your infractions. And next to them you see that it expires NEVER.

    These infractions are supposed to expire after time, but they dont. Ever.

    This is true. The one I can see says "never" for the expiration on it
    Discussing Disciplinary Actions
    Posts and/or private messages that, in any manner whether directly or indirectly, discuss disciplinary actions taken by Cryptic Studios against any user (including the poster) may be subject to an infraction.
    This comes into it as well
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    CommanderReed wrote:
    Yea I got that message as well but its never the case. These things dont go away.

    Up at the top of the page here, you'll see a USER CP in orange. Click on that and you will see your infractions. And next to them you see that it expires NEVER.

    These infractions are supposed to expire after time, but they dont. Ever.

    oh Right you are... never saw that in the CP section before
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    And yeah, its extremely uneven around here. There are guys here that get it for little, and others that are like O.o that guy's still here??
  • Options
    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Zilag wrote:

    We all agreed to Cryptic EULA/TOS's and it's all right there on the forums each time we post. We're here for better or worse at their pleasure, the same as with any game company.

    You are absolutely right, this is not a "free speech" issue, or a "I paid therefore the customer is king" issue. When it comes to the game or the forums, Cryptic owns it, it's their property, and they have final say in how it is managed.

    If you rent a home you don't own it, and you can't treat the place like you own it. Your privacy and access is protected, but you have no right to knock down walls or use the place to raise chickens in. There are limits to what even the owner can do, but you are not the owner, so your rights are even more limited.

    If you own a house, and you rent the use of it to somebody, you have the right to impose limits on their behavior regarding your property.

    We are not even renters in the forum, we are guests. Guests have even fewer rights than renters have. Renters have to be formally evicted - guests can be summarily kicked out, even if they are being nice. You have a reason to expect to be allowed to stay as long as you are nice, but no actual right to it.

    I believe they could disable this entire web site for good and there wouldn't be a damn thing we could do about it. This web site is provided as a courtesy. True, it would look totally unbusinesslike for them to not have one, but they do have the right to not do this for us at all.

    We retain the right to have our own unofficial forums. If you really want to say whatever you like however you like, get your own web site. The if Cryptic posts something there you don't like, you can kick THEM out.

    :)
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