Consolidated list of recent game breaking pvp bugs

anubis77c · February 6

In this thread, I'll outline the major bugs affecting PvP in a concise format to make solving them as easy as possible. I have included screenshots of the abilities and highlighted the problem parts. PvP activity was on a strong upswing, with multiple groups working on tournaments, builds, and events - all on hold now with these releases.

Great writeup by another member of our community that covers Malicious AI in great detail, in particular most of its interaction bugs (some not covered here) as well as certain counters not registering properly:
https://www.reddit.com/r/stobuilds/comments/1az5llz/malicious_ai_complete_bug_report_and_interaction/
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1. Malicious AI (Boff ability)

Severity: Critical. All PvP has come to a complete stop after the release of this ability.
Problem: "Hold" effect lasts for 15 seconds no matter what. Cannot be countered by any ability. Can be activated back-to-back as the ability has no global cooldown or shared cooldown.
Steps to Reproduce: Place two ships in PvP arena. Attacker equips 3 copies of Malicious AI, ensign, lt, ltc. All 3 can be activated even while the others are on cooldown. Boimler effect cooldown activation instantly recharges all copies of the ability for non-stop hold effect aginst the target. Defender's tray will be greyed out, cannot activate any ability to remove this effect. Defender's CTRLX skill does not decrease the duration of the hold.
Easy solution: Remove the hold effect from this ability entirely, or prevent it from applying to Player ships. Set global and shared cooldowns.
Complex solution: Apply CTRLX scaling to both the user and receiver of the ability to heavily reduce the duration of this effect. Even a 2-3 second hold is extremely powerful (for reference, most PvP players have between 200 and 350 CTRLX at all times. For consistency, set "engineering team" to clear the hold, in the same way that engineering team clears all other holds in the game except this one. Allow universal consoles such as Elachi Rift, Personal Wormhole, Fluidic Phase Jump to be used while held (in the same way Obfuscation Screen and Dominion Defense Screen can be used during holds). An ability this powerful should be at least a 1 minute global cooldown or more - keep in mind there are many other holds/disables that can be used in coordination with this.
Notes: Against non-player ships, this ability applies a 15 second duration engine disable. This could potentially be just as broken, so please do not just swap the "hold" for the "engine disable" for player ships. Some hold or disable is okay, but it needs to factor in CTRLX to lower the duration and also be cleared by something (in this case, engineering team).

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2. Organic Nebula (Boff ability)

Severity: Critical. Stealth balance completely out of whack on slow or stationary pvp builds such as Cndarian Defenders.
Problem: Stealth granted by this ability lasts 30 seconds and STACKS with all other sources of stealth, such as intel team or duplicate copies of itself. Can be activated back-to-back as the ability has no global cooldown or shared cooldown.
Steps to Reproduce: Take any ship with an LTC science seat, equip 3 copies of Organic Nebula ensign, lt, ltc. All 3 can be activated even while others are on cooldown. Boimler effect cooldown activation instantly recharges all copies of the ability for non stop infinite stealth effect. While in red alert status (fire a weapon) you can also activate Intel Team at the same time. Nebula ranks 1, 2, 3 + intel team = over 20,000 stealth, it is not possible to have enough perception to counter that so a Nebula user can simply sit parked with effectively infinite stealth while still being able to fire weapons, heal allies, and otherwise play normally.
Easy solution: Remove the stealth effect from this ability entirely. Set global and shared cooldowns.
Complex solution: Prevent stealth from stacking from other sources. Base stealth value is far too high since it already stacks with Subterfuge traits, Exitus Acta Probat, stealth skill from various sources, and aux power.
Notes: The defense from this ability does not stack - this is good. Why does the stealth stack then?

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3. Darmok and Jalad (starship trait from Tamarian Cruiser, Winter Event ship 2023)

Severity: High
Problem: The disable effect from this trait reapplies every 45 seconds when target is using "Fresh from R&R" personal trait. It should only apply once per foe. 6 second duration disable is not reduced by receiving ship's CTRLX, so it's always the full 6 seconds, and cannot be cleared by engineering team.
Steps to Reproduce: Place two ships in PvP arena. Attacker equips Darmok and Jalad trait. Target ship equips "Fresh from R&R" personal trait. Set one attacking ship weapon to autofire and watch the target ship's buff bar, you'll see a solid white icon (darmok debuff) when they are first disabled, and this will linger for 45 seconds until the Fresh from R&R icon appears, removing it. The next attack will immediately reapply the Darmok trait disable and debuff. Any attempt by the target ship to clear the debuff will not work (eng team, sci team, tac team, etc)
Easy solution: Allow this disable duration to be decreased by target's CTRLX skill. Set Engineering team to clear the disable effect (eng team clears most other disable effects in the game).
Complex solution: Nope, this one is that easy ^

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4. Console - Universal - Decentralized Immunity (also known as "Rampart Drone," the active ability name)

Severity: High
Problem: This console can be exploited to recharge near instantly, resulting in continuous damage immunity.
Steps to Reproduce: Equip the console on a fast ship and enter any combat area (Argala Patrol for example). Activate the console while moving, upon leaving ~12km it will instantly go from a 2 minute cooldown to about 45 seconds, and if you return to the drone the recharge will be instantly refunded in full. You can also use any untargetable ability such as Evade Target Lock or Temporal Surge to achieve the same effect.
Easy solution: Remove partial refund mechanic from this console entirely.
Complex solution: Remove relationship between the drone's need to target you and its partial refund mechanic. Destroying the drone can refund some of the timer, but not 75 seconds of it (maybe 7%, same as an unconn proc), and the user simply flying away from it or becoming untargetable should not trigger the refund at all.

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5. Console - Universal - Charged Positron Matrix Bomb

Severity: High
Problem: This console has a targeted 20 second duration Placate effect that cannot be cleared or reduced in duration.
Steps to Reproduce: Park two ships in a pvp arena. One ship uses Positron Bomb. The other ship cannot see the positron bomb user for 20 seconds no matter what is used - including placate "immunities" such as Pilot Team, Narrow Sensor Bands, or Fleet Maneuver Gamma.
Easy solution: Remove Placate effect from this console entirely. Why would a console that drops an exploding kinetic weapon placate anyway?
Complex solution: Allow the placate effect to be cleared by placate immunities. Placate duration should be reduced by the target's CTRLX in the same way the placate from Pseudo-Submission (personal trait) is.

Thank you for your attention, looking forward to these solutions so our community can play the game again.

data · February 6

These are all game breaking. Speaking for my own fleet, I was recruiting close to a dozen people a month to PvP, of which around half were pursuing Meta Competitive $500+ builds, and that's just all at a standstill right now because of Malicious AI. That is just for my own fleet. The overall PvP community has clearly come to a standstill, willingness to invest more time and energy into STO is down, willingness to do Premades and other community building exercises are down, and other highly engaging activities is down.

The ability should be fundamentally nerfed into the ground if not removed outright from the game. It's a shame, the PvP community is far larger than many realize it, but because of how fragile the game is, so too is PvP.

At the end of the day, we all understand the Devs are under a lot of pressure right now, we all enjoy this game and want it to be our go to game, but the standards coming out lately in relation to PvP have been so abysmally low it's hard to really do much or justify to ourselves continued investment unless Cryptic shows that they will care even slightly to fix obviously broken and game breaking bugs. Mistakes happen, we all know that and have sympathy for that, and we also know the game isn't in a great place overall so prioritizing PvP isn't to be expected.

But what wasn't expected was releasing back-to-back content that fundamentally destroyed PvP within the course of around a month. If these items were fixed it would do a lot for game health and PvP health. The PvP community underpins a lot of the high-end players in this game in one way or another from keeping high-end players who DPS or who edit the wiki engaged, encourage spending, trading, propping up values of items in game with no PvE usage permitting further gambling with Lockboxes, and generally keep this community alive as the dynamic place it is.

So, please do fix this.

freakboy6 · February 6

all the above needs fixing!

mercenary4hire · February 6

Does Cryptic know how much money PVP players spend? If they did they would fix all of the above ASAP

chikanhu123 · February 6

As Data said, contrary to common belief, STO's PvP community is bigger than most people think. PvP relies much more on these types of mechanics and even the slightest OP ability will break the game for a sizable part of the community. PvP might be the single most engaging thing in STO once you get into it and can be played at every level. However at the highest level it requires significant resources which may or may not include monetary investments which Cryptic would be leaving on the table if they don't fix these problems ASAP.

sov42 · February 6

PvP issues aside, a lot of the meta PvE players are of the opinion that the new manuals might be the cause of all the server issues we're having.

ngc7442 · February 6

It would be nice to see PvP be accessable to new players, and there is a lot to be said about that. Stuff like this will hinder any interest more so than it already has. It takes a lot of money, time, and effort to run an elite build. That is a build which is necessary to have any foot in on the PvP experience in the first place. It's easily divided as all or nothing when it comes to PvP, and that divide is beginning to grow instead of shrink.

data · February 6

sov42 wrote: »

PvP issues aside, a lot of the meta PvE players are of the opinion that the new manuals might be the cause of all the server issues we're having.

Is there any evidence to think this might be true? Asking out of curiosity, since I haven't seen anything about it.

polditwenty · February 6

One can only agree with this opinion.
PvP is all about the ability to build a good ship and pilot it in a match against another equally well-built ship with other talented pilots.
Now the ships that we all have been working on for months are getting beaten by an Ensign-level ability
In particular, the ability Malicious AI's takes this expression of player's skill away from the game because of the described effects.
This obviously cannot be healthy for the PvP community of Star Trek Online.

ruben · February 6

I totally agree. The bugs mentioned in the thread have a huge impact on PvP. Even though the PvP community is relatively small compared to the PvE community, there are many players who are losing their interest in it because of these game breaking bugs. It should be a priority for the developers to fix them, even if it takes a certain amount of time. Anything else is not fair to the players who invest money and time in the game. Please fix these bugs.

- Ben

osuusm · February 7

I wholeheartedly agree with the previous comments about how these bugged items have critically stifled PvP in STO. It has become so easy to backhandedly dismiss concerns from the PvP community because of the mistaken and horribly ill-informed belief that PvP is dead or inactive in this game. This is a lazy and blatant mischaracterization of the PvP community in STO. It has several groups that actively engage in PvP and are extremely concerned about these new bugs. These crippling bugs are wreaking havoc and need to be addressed pronto.

simplysimon · February 7

I started to occasionally play PvP, then the more I played the more I enjoyed it and the more I spent to get towards meta. But the ongoing addition of stuff that just breaks PvP kills any enjoyment & has made me reconsider spending any more money until the issues are resolved and reoccurrence of these game breaking bugs are a thing of the past.

I get that the dev team is stretched and not necessarily in a good place at the minute and I feel for them, so I don’t want this to sound like a dev bash post.

I just want a game that is fit for purpose.

anubis77c · February 9

data#7310 wrote: »

sov42 wrote: »

PvP issues aside, a lot of the meta PvE players are of the opinion that the new manuals might be the cause of all the server issues we're having.

Is there any evidence to think this might be true? Asking out of curiosity, since I haven't seen anything about it.

It does seem that any time there are a lot of DoT effects, it increases lag somewhat. Malicious being 3 separate DoTs and being infinitely spammable I'm sure is not helping.

data · February 10

anubis77c wrote: »

data#7310 wrote: »

sov42 wrote: »

PvP issues aside, a lot of the meta PvE players are of the opinion that the new manuals might be the cause of all the server issues we're having.

Is there any evidence to think this might be true? Asking out of curiosity, since I haven't seen anything about it.

It does seem that any time there are a lot of DoT effects, it increases lag somewhat. Malicious being 3 separate DoTs and being infinitely spammable I'm sure is not helping.

Reasonable, might be interesting to quantify it. I might take a stab at it.

elpatron753 · February 10

Please fix these bugs!

anubis77c · February 16

Any eyes on these issues?

husanakx · February 17

anubis77c wrote: »

data#7310 wrote: »

sov42 wrote: »

PvP issues aside, a lot of the meta PvE players are of the opinion that the new manuals might be the cause of all the server issues we're having.

Is there any evidence to think this might be true? Asking out of curiosity, since I haven't seen anything about it.

It does seem that any time there are a lot of DoT effects, it increases lag somewhat. Malicious being 3 separate DoTs and being infinitely spammable I'm sure is not helping.

Not to mention that in PvE land it is also going to proc the Feklari console all the time for even more dots. Not many run them but also Dyson protonic sci consoles. They proc off this skill a lot.

As someone who enjoys building stupid things yes this skill can result in a TON of dots out. Especially as it jumps to new targets.

I think as far as PVP goes we are pretty much in a wait and see what DECA prioritizes phase. With some luck they will realize a few PvP balance passes are in order. I'm not asking for them to nerf a ton of stuff for PvE (even though half this stuff is meh in PvE)... the engine allows for player cut outs on items and skills. It shouldn't be a big deal to add the standard (Has no effect on players) or (Half duration vs player) type * to new things.

If DECA really really wants to grow this game... a PvP ship doll would be a worth while addition. Unlock a ton of free PVP only gear that only slots on the PvP ship doll. (when the game launched this was actually a thing... we had PvP merit points we could trade in for MK X Anti proton weapons. Give us MK 12 PvP weapons for the PvP doll only make it purple mk 12 and non upgradeable, disallow all non PvP only gear) Add all the (no hold/disable effect on player) required to skills. Want to really win people over add a PvP tab for Personal/Ship traits as well... and disable rep traits completely. This would make it much easier to curate a balanced list of 20 or 30 traits. Bring back STO PvP as it was before Delta Rising... Limit gear to MK 12, drop all the stupid sets. Maybe add a few PvP only items or sets if you wish (making them free). Sell us PvP only Visuals, and things like Fireworks. The core of this game is Esport worthy it always has been... sadly the game has only ever been close to that level for a few months here and there over the life of the game.

mikerc024 · February 17

it would be enough for them to add counter possibilities allowing them to resist the A.I. or to ensure that it can only be placed once per player every 5 minutes so that the problem is resolved.

nemestis · February 17

After 14 years people still bother with PVP? you gotta be kidding me....

vanhyo · February 18

@husanakx
"a PvP ship doll would be a worth while addition. Unlock a ton of free PVP only gear that only slots on the PvP ship doll. (when the game launched this was actually a thing... we had PvP merit points we could trade in for MK X Anti proton weapons. Give us MK 12 PvP weapons for the PvP doll only make it purple mk 12 and non upgradeable, disallow all non PvP only gear) Add all the (no hold/disable effect on player) required to skills. Want to really win people over add a PvP tab for Personal/Ship traits as well... and disable rep traits completely."

Pls, No. This is even worst than a couple of game-breaking miscoded things.

I wouldn't mind if cryptic does something like PvP-RP event once a week, week1 Tier1 only, week2 Tier2 only. Starship traits, universal consoles, mealstorm torps disabled. So lets say every friday night you have big "capture and hold" PvP-RP special que event with a different tier ships up to tier 5.

Outside of something like this, should cryptic move to completely salvage pvp, it is uninstall for me. This is MMO, not a shooter game.

@anubis77c
Console - Universal - Charged Positron Matrix Bomb
This console is not broke. It does exactly what it says it does and you can remove the debuff very easily if you read the cryptic master tooltip

@nemestis
Yes, its the only end game that is worth pursuing. I could care less about killing a borg cube 2 seconds faster. If cryptic had any common sense they will provide a good pvp gameplay, like 1to1 number-balanced PvP war zones, PvP war zones not hidden but shown on the map with big bold red letters, rewards for doing PvP, PvP skirmish patrols...

anubis77c · February 19

vanhyo wrote: »

@anubis77c
Console - Universal - Charged Positron Matrix Bomb
This console is not broke. It does exactly what it says it does and you can remove the debuff very easily if you read the cryptic master tooltip

The placate lasts 20 seconds, and it always lasts 20 seconds.

The debuff it applies is a blue science type, but it's not cleared by science team. It's also not cleared by engineering team or pilot team like all other placates in the game. The duration is not resisted by CTRLX like Pseudo-Submission. Destroying the bomb itself doesn't end the placate early, spawning pets in or forcing the user to target something else also does not prevent the effect from occuring. The only time it does not guarantee a full 20 seconds of complete untargetability/invisibility is if it is used on the threshold of 10km where it doesn't activate reliably, just like any other universal console. It's actually worse than untargetability, at least you can still visually see a ship that is untargetable and follow it, positron bomb's placate makes the user 100% invisible.

It's a placate that isn't countered by placate immunites.
Seems pretty broken to me.

Agreed on everything else though.

husanakx · February 19

vanhyo wrote: »

@husanakx
"a PvP ship doll would be a worth while addition. Unlock a ton of free PVP only gear that only slots on the PvP ship doll. (when the game launched this was actually a thing... we had PvP merit points we could trade in for MK X Anti proton weapons. Give us MK 12 PvP weapons for the PvP doll only make it purple mk 12 and non upgradeable, disallow all non PvP only gear) Add all the (no hold/disable effect on player) required to skills. Want to really win people over add a PvP tab for Personal/Ship traits as well... and disable rep traits completely."

Pls, No. This is even worst than a couple of game-breaking miscoded things.

I wouldn't mind if cryptic does something like PvP-RP event once a week, week1 Tier1 only, week2 Tier2 only. Starship traits, universal consoles, mealstorm torps disabled. So lets say every friday night you have big "capture and hold" PvP-RP special que event with a different tier ships up to tier 5.

Outside of something like this, should cryptic move to completely salvage pvp, it is uninstall for me. This is MMO, not a shooter game.

Removing all the PvE additions from PvP would be the only way to balance it going forward. The main issue with STO PvP has always been PvE gear and traits. 99% of the things that break PvP are garbage in PvE land anyway.

Yes let everyone compete on a somewhat equal playing field. Let skill once again determine the winner... not whom ever spent the most billions in EC.

STO PvP for the first few years was 99% skill 1% gear. 5 years in it was more like 80% skill 20% gear. A decade in 20% skill 80% gear. I'm not sure skill is even that big a factor anymore. Currently things such as those the OP listed skill has all but been removed.

That might make me sound like a complainer... but I think that is the perception of any old player that returned for a bit. Those of us posting here have been around STO long enough to have seen friends return, and then leave again.

If DECA were to overhaul PvP... maybe the way to go is as they do in a few other games such as GW2. Leave the open PvP zone a free for all with all the broken PvE gear you wish. Make Areana/Cap and holds respect a PvP gear only rule set. One that can be reasonably balanced... yet still offer so much variety in builds. As PvP stands today, even if they do correct all the most obnoxiously PvP breaking stuff... the pvp game is still not in a great place.

osuusm · February 20

I've been out a few days; it's all fixed, right? Oh, yeah, the game is still floundering over self-inflicted stabs that are driving folks away. Please, fix this stuff.

vanhyo · February 21

@husanakx
Your starting point that pvp is broken or unbalanced is wrong.

"If DECA were to overhaul PvP... "
and you still have no guarantee that you will end up with something better, chances are you get something much worst.

data · February 22

[/quote]

If DECA were to overhaul PvP... maybe the way to go is as they do in a few other games such as GW2. Leave the open PvP zone a free for all with all the broken PvE gear you wish. Make Areana/Cap and holds respect a PvP gear only rule set. One that can be reasonably balanced... yet still offer so much variety in builds. As PvP stands today, even if they do correct all the most obnoxiously PvP breaking stuff... the pvp game is still not in a great place.

[/quote]

The fundamental problem is that there is ZERO distinction between PvP Gear and PvE gear. Meta gear changes all the time, we try new things all the time. This is a fundamentally terrible idea. I just a few days ago made a PvP build that depending on how the Ahwanhee console is patched and how Malicious AI is patched has a lot in common in PvE builds and is very unorthodox compared to the PvP meta, yet it will likely work. Idk why this suggestion to 'restrict' people gets so much attention in the context of PvP, its just a bad idea. This game is about builds at the high end. Its what makes them money. When it comes to skill, it matters far more than you give it credit for. I have seen plenty of people have a full meta hydra build still be absolutely terrible and people make a Deimos or JHAS count like a Hydra. Skill is everything, its just more subtle than it was in the past and it requires paying attention to your ships mechanics with your gear to maximize the synergies and get the best outcome for your fight. Making us do arenas a certain way is a great way to limit spending, limit experimentation, and increase frustration and anger. At least now if we want, we can go into a Private Arena and agree to not use broken gear, or to do a meme fight with DPS ships. Etc. What about the DPSers that use PvP to test mechanics in a stable environment like STOBetter? The reasons this is a bad idea are unending.

I do agree there should in an ideal world be a game mode for T1 / Budget PvP part of the game mode, but that isn't mutually exclusive to unrestricted pvp queues. People suggesting removing existing content in favor of more restricted content, when you can just have both is very confusing. There is no reason to not have both.
PvP isn't a priority for the game devs at the moment though, which to be honest is fine, but until it is, and they want to seriously spend time making it perfect while listening to the existing pvp community and having a productive dialogue about what we want they should just leave it alone and ensure that no new things are added that make it broken (like Malicious AI)

data · February 22

Also this is a thread about the Malicious AI bug and others, we should stay on topic as best as we can so any developers reading this to bug report thread do not need to sift through endless comments about the general state of PvP.

anubis77c · February 22

husanakx wrote: »

Removing all the PvE additions from PvP would be the only way to balance it going forward. The main issue with STO PvP has always been PvE gear and traits. 99% of the things that break PvP are garbage in PvE land anyway.

Yes let everyone compete on a somewhat equal playing field. Let skill once again determine the winner... not whom ever spent the most billions in EC.

STO PvP for the first few years was 99% skill 1% gear. 5 years in it was more like 80% skill 20% gear. A decade in 20% skill 80% gear. I'm not sure skill is even that big a factor anymore. Currently things such as those the OP listed skill has all but been removed.

It is true that most of the things that break PvP aren't even effective in PvE, so why separate the gear systems? They could just... not introduce things that are obviously going to break PvP. If they had shown any of us what Malicious AI and Organic Nebula were going to do, we could've told them instantly that it was going to be a problem, long before it ever made it to the live server. I'm finding these issues literally minutes into the server coming back online after a patch.

This isn't rocket science stuff, anyone who has played pvp for a week or two understands what is powerful and what isn't. If they made an effort to understand the mechanics of their own game, this wouldn't be an issue because they would know what to introduce for PvE, and if it will need to be changed for PvP they could do it proactively. They can code things to behave differently against players but still work the same way as it does in PvE, why not leverage that better? (Ex. Gorn Exp Weapon does 0 damage against players, Thalaron Pulse doesn't damage players, Entropic Redistribution does half damage against players, Transmorphic Containment hold has half duration against players, etc)

This idea of a "PvP doll" is fine as an optional, separate system. If it were the only way to play pvp, I'd leave the game immediately. Kill build diversity, theorycrafting, why even play anymore? There's a million better games with dumbed down mechanics that I'd play instead, you may as well just turn STO into a mobile game at that point. I play STO because of the complicated and interesting build system, that is the single best thing about the game both PvP and PvE.

Your comments about skill are incredibly off base. Watch any of the tournament footage, or listen to the chatter when we do arenas. Nobody is like "oh no, it's a Metaship with X equipment on it," it's all names. We know which players are skilled and there is respect and caution when fighting them, regardless of what type of ship they are flying or what gear is on it. Yeah if you come in with a fresh level 65 jemmy captain with no gear you're going to get wrecked but that's true in ANY game like this, the playing field should not be balanced for the lowest level players, it's balanced from the top down, like most other pvp games are. The solution isn't a separate system, it's to add a matchmaker and rewards for participating in pvp to increase the pop - then low level players get matched against each other. If you needed any more proof, look at who the best players were in the T1/T2/T3 tournaments we ran, everyone had the exact same ships and gear, yet the best players were still the same names you see who were already good at T6 pvp like Lant, Biebs, Leopold. If gear is all that matters, why didn't any of the many players who participated in that tournament beat those guys?

Speaking of skill, you're forgetting that skill is not just piloting. Building the ship is a skill all in itself, and using that build effectively is a huge part of it. Everyone has their quirks and favorites, there are lots of side-grades in pvp builds, more than any other part of the game - that's why I can give someone an exact copy paste of my build and they still come in and get wrecked because they don't understand how it is built and how to pilot it.

I'm kind of surprised to see these comments from you actually, I know what gear you have access to, so if skill doesn't matter and it's so easy (everything decided by a coin toss I guess), why aren't you in our arena matches or ker'rat crushing everyone then?

data · February 26

Comprehensive Analysis of the Malicious AI Bug:
https://www.reddit.com/r/stobuilds/comments/1az5llz/malicious_ai_complete_bug_report_and_interaction/

ataru · February 27

I can't say that I PvP, but it'd be a great thing if the devs were to view this thread and address some critical errors with these boff powers, especially Organic Nebula and Malicious AI.

husanakx · February 28

anubis77c wrote: »

husanakx wrote: »

Removing all the PvE additions from PvP would be the only way to balance it going forward. The main issue with STO PvP has always been PvE gear and traits. 99% of the things that break PvP are garbage in PvE land anyway.

Yes let everyone compete on a somewhat equal playing field. Let skill once again determine the winner... not whom ever spent the most billions in EC.

STO PvP for the first few years was 99% skill 1% gear. 5 years in it was more like 80% skill 20% gear. A decade in 20% skill 80% gear. I'm not sure skill is even that big a factor anymore. Currently things such as those the OP listed skill has all but been removed.

It is true that most of the things that break PvP aren't even effective in PvE, so why separate the gear systems? They could just... not introduce things that are obviously going to break PvP. If they had shown any of us what Malicious AI and Organic Nebula were going to do, we could've told them instantly that it was going to be a problem, long before it ever made it to the live server. I'm finding these issues literally minutes into the server coming back online after a patch.

This isn't rocket science stuff, anyone who has played pvp for a week or two understands what is powerful and what isn't. If they made an effort to understand the mechanics of their own game, this wouldn't be an issue because they would know what to introduce for PvE, and if it will need to be changed for PvP they could do it proactively. They can code things to behave differently against players but still work the same way as it does in PvE, why not leverage that better? (Ex. Gorn Exp Weapon does 0 damage against players, Thalaron Pulse doesn't damage players, Entropic Redistribution does half damage against players, Transmorphic Containment hold has half duration against players, etc)

This idea of a "PvP doll" is fine as an optional, separate system. If it were the only way to play pvp, I'd leave the game immediately. Kill build diversity, theorycrafting, why even play anymore? There's a million better games with dumbed down mechanics that I'd play instead, you may as well just turn STO into a mobile game at that point. I play STO because of the complicated and interesting build system, that is the single best thing about the game both PvP and PvE.

Your comments about skill are incredibly off base. Watch any of the tournament footage, or listen to the chatter when we do arenas. Nobody is like "oh no, it's a Metaship with X equipment on it," it's all names. We know which players are skilled and there is respect and caution when fighting them, regardless of what type of ship they are flying or what gear is on it. Yeah if you come in with a fresh level 65 jemmy captain with no gear you're going to get wrecked but that's true in ANY game like this, the playing field should not be balanced for the lowest level players, it's balanced from the top down, like most other pvp games are. The solution isn't a separate system, it's to add a matchmaker and rewards for participating in pvp to increase the pop - then low level players get matched against each other. If you needed any more proof, look at who the best players were in the T1/T2/T3 tournaments we ran, everyone had the exact same ships and gear, yet the best players were still the same names you see who were already good at T6 pvp like Lant, Biebs, Leopold. If gear is all that matters, why didn't any of the many players who participated in that tournament beat those guys?

Speaking of skill, you're forgetting that skill is not just piloting. Building the ship is a skill all in itself, and using that build effectively is a huge part of it. Everyone has their quirks and favorites, there are lots of side-grades in pvp builds, more than any other part of the game - that's why I can give someone an exact copy paste of my build and they still come in and get wrecked because they don't understand how it is built and how to pilot it.

I'm kind of surprised to see these comments from you actually, I know what gear you have access to, so if skill doesn't matter and it's so easy (everything decided by a coin toss I guess), why aren't you in our arena matches or ker'rat crushing everyone then?

I am well aware theory crafting and building its 90% of PvP.
My suggestion also doesn't remove either. I am not suggesting everyone get in the exact same ship... or 3 or 4 build choices.
I'm suggesting they find away to keep all the PvE additions out of PvP. As I know who you play with then you also know we have a lot of Panda boys who have left and aren't likely coming back. One of the main reasons they won't be returning is it would cost them a few months of grind, and probably a few billion in EC to catch up on gear wise after a few year hiatus. I am also completely fine with PvE kids not needing to slot completely different MK 15 golded gear from what they burned resources on for PvE. It makes it hard to attract new players when you start by saying hey... all that stuff you spent the last number of months upgrading on upgrade weekends is useless in PvP, here is a new list of things to grind. lol

For what its worth ya 5-10% skill is still a lot... look at any sport the kids in the minor leagues are 99% the way to pro, yet most will still get destroyed when they jump up to pro. Also as you suggest a major component of PVP is build know how.

I always want build diversity. I know its been a long time since I PvPed with any of the Pandas... but theory and build crafting used to be something I enjoyed and like to think I was decent at. I just don't want returning players OR new players essentially being required to unbox 3 or 4 promo ships, upgrade 4 or 5 required weapons and other gear.

IMO this is a game that PvP wise is almost impossible to leave and return too. Yes I would prefer a more controlled PvP game. Your not wrong either they could get 90% of the way without any PvP doll if they would simply include *vs Player cutouts for 90% of the disables they add... and dmg reductions on new power creeped click consoles and the like. I'm also a bit of a realist though even if DECA was to show strong commitment to improving PvP... the game has so much junk. That yes people like you, and myself (I would like to think) will find all the odd synergies with the old stuff they ignored in their balance passes. In other MMOs trying to balance PvP without a restriction system is basically impossible. I think STO would be the same. On the high end players are going to find the 2% that will allow them to dominate that will always be true. I think we just need PvP to be more approachable by the masses, it hasn't been in a decade.

husanakx · February 28

data#7310 wrote: »

Also this is a thread about the Malicious AI bug and others, we should stay on topic as best as we can so any developers reading this to bug report thread do not need to sift through endless comments about the general state of PvP.

Good point... I think they should get it pretty much from the first post though. OP did a very good job of detailing the specific issues.

Consolidated list of recent game breaking pvp bugs

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