Elite are hard, and people should be ready for them. I strongly believe that the Devs should allow us to change the specializations at the beginning of the TFO.
Be spec-ed for space and ending up in ground, and the reverse, it's terrible and does impact survivability and DPS.
A change like this would allow many to enjoy more the random-Elite and decrease the chance of fail.
Sigh... If people queue for a random elite mission, they're going to have to deal with not knowing what they're going to get.
If that makes things too hard, they're not truly as elite as they'd like to think they are.
First people were asking for random and more elite content (because there was too much DPS and everything was too easy), now elite content must be made easier and more predictable because otherwise it won't be an easy grindfest and players might actually risk failing the mission.
Which, btw, would totally defeat the purpose of more and random elite content.
Funny thing is, this wish to see elite content being made easier is exactly what I warned against when people proposed more elite content as a solution for power creep.
It took only two days to prove I was, once again, right in my predictions.
'Exclude everyone I deem unfit from Elite and change the randomness of a random system for Elite, cause I might not be able to handle a wildcard' said no true elite player, ever.
You want to play elite content, play it.
You want to play 'elite' content but only in a safe environment because you don't want to deal with unexpected behaviour, as that might make things actually * gasp * challenging? Play pre-mades.
Elite are hard, and people should be ready for them. I strongly believe that the Devs should allow us to change the specializations at the beginning of the TFO.
Be spec-ed for space and ending up in ground, and the reverse, it's terrible and does impact survivability and DPS.
A change like this would allow many to enjoy more the random-Elite and decrease the chance of fail.
Sigh... If people queue for a random elite mission, they're going to have to deal with not knowing what they're going to get.
If that makes things too hard, they're not truly as elite as they'd like to think they are.
A long, long time ago we have to plan for Elites and gear for the Elite making sure resistant matched against the NPC we would be facing as one example. Those days are long gone. I agree in todays game there is no need to know which Elite you are going into. A decent build should be able to handle any Elite mission without changing gear in todays game.
While I don't like the core idea of Random Elite and prefer the old system before it was removed. There is no reason players should have problems going into a random Elite in the current state of the game.
Please give us the opportunity to chance specializations during the pre-combat briefing period. Thankfully epic ground is a breeze compared to epic space but I think it would be a very nice thing for a lot of players to be able to prepare properly as it is "random" which one we get.
I have played well over 50+ Elite Random TFO since they started. So far I have been pleasantly surprised about 94% went well about 5% went super well and maybe 1% was unfortunate with people signed up who wanted to leech their way through. I didn't play all of them alone but a good chunk of it like 15+ I signed up random by myself. Other times with a friend or two. It is going much better than expected however there is people purposely leeching coming in with tons of injuries ect... But i guess that's part of the game.
C-Store Inc. is still looking for active members on the fed side. If you don't have a fleet feel free to contact me in game @stegi.
Please give us the opportunity to chance specializations during the pre-combat briefing period.
Thankfully epic ground is a breeze compared to epic space but I think it would be a very nice thing for a lot of players to be able to prepare properly as it is "random" which one we get.
I also feel that allowing us to at least select our primary and secondary specialization trees at the start of TFO is a great suggestion.
I even think it is in alignment with the Star Trek universe in general. You may not know the sort of damage you might face when you get there but in general you would know if you are going to be leaving your ship.
I have played well over 50+ Elite Random TFO since they started. So far I have been pleasantly surprised about 94% went well about 5% went super well and maybe 1% was unfortunate with people signed up who wanted to leech their way through. I didn't play all of them alone but a good chunk of it like 15+ I signed up random by myself. Other times with a friend or two. It is going much better than expected however there is people purposely leeching coming in with tons of injuries ect... But i guess that's part of the game.
Only got one in last night (Defense of SB1 Elite) and that one went without a hitch.
It may not be representative of the whole, but first impression is that those who sign in at this time appear to know their level of competency.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
@darkbladejk It sounds like what you are talking about is something to compensate for the waning of community interaction and support nowadays, which I also see as a problem, but I don't think it is practical to try and retrofit other games' attempts at automated solutions to the problem into STO. STO is not much like those other games for one thing, and without the formal Trinity and raid structure and whatnot I don't see how they would really be that effective
That said, improving the systems they have in place already might help more than overcomplicating things with all those "tests" and whatnot. For example, the long pause for pre-action voiceover (or text boxes) currently seems to average about sixty percent or more fluff and then skimp on the actual advice (or even give hilariously wrong advice) and cleaning them up to be actually useful would help a lot. So would fixing the severe map change dump-to-login bug so that players would actually get into the TFO in time to read or listen to them.
Pulling these sections as they seem to be the bulk of the argument. The systems I've proposed are meant to make sure people are ready for the content they're trying to join. If this was advanced mode or especially normal I wouldn't care. The difference between those an elite is that in elite mode if a single person isn't prepared for the content then that run is an automatic fail that wastes the time of 4 other people. And in my book no one single person is so important that they should be allowed to do that. Not every run is going to go perfect and even with the systems I've proposed I'm fully aware there would be "that one run" where something went haywire and it still failed. However there is a huge difference between "that one run" and someone joining something they're not ready for, be it knowingly or unknowingly.
WoW ran into this issue where you had people joining content they weren't ready for and it made it so that over half the runs would fail because people were not ready. Trying to join the equivalent of elite content when they're freshly leveled and have on pure quest greens that are a mix match of levels from 1 to max level. Again I want to see people experience content BUT not at the expense of the rest of the team. You're correct that STO is different in the fact it doesn't have the traditional trinity structure. If anything STO is more of a duo system of tank and DPS with the ability to heal yourself distributed evenly between the two. You could say it's akin to World of Warships in that matter. My problem is that in allowing people to join elite content before they've reached a certain level of gear, demonstrated a certain level of competency and such it's akin to allowing someone in a level 1 ship in World of Warships to join a tier 10 match. That person is going to get vaporized quickly and isn't going to be able to do anything at all to contribute. Or think of it like this to borrow from a real world analogy. If you break your foot and need corrective surgery as a result, do you want the guy who just got into med school that day and doesn't know the first thing about surgery operating on your foot, or the guy that's graduated med school and been doing those surgeries for 10+ years? Yes I know it's not an exact 1:1 comparison but you get the idea.
Two things can be true at once, you can improve already existing systems AND implement new stuff. New traits, consoles and the like are implemented all the time so this idea that some people have that new mechanics couldn't be introduced is simply untrue. You're also correct that the dungeon journal wouldn't work if people don't read it, however this goes back to some of my previous posts in that it's no different than people refusing to listen to briefings or read them, then whining that they don't know what to do.
The reason the systems work in WoW, SWTOR and similar is it does 3 things that removes virtually all excuses from people to not be able to do the basic level demanded by the higher difficulties. First is it makes sure you have good enough equipment to survive and contribute to the team on paper. This way you're not coming into content something like Korfez with a tier 2 ship using all standard issue mk i whites. It's not going to be fun for you, and it's not going to be fun for the team. Second is it makes sure you have a decent enough grasp on your class to be able to contribute and survive. Such as DPS not standing in dumb, healers knowing when to purge debuffs or when to focus single heals vs aoe, and tanks knowing not to point the cleave at the group or when to taunt and pop defensives and such. You don't have to be perfect at it, just have a basic level of understanding. Third with the dungeon journal is it's the equivalent to having footnotes on different enemies available all the time in game where you can read what they do and then formulate your own strategies AND tells you where you can get certain gear for your builds. Such as someone who wants Tetryon but doesn't know where all to get it.
If someone was capable of getting enough basic gear to get in the door, could demonstrate they knew enough of their class and the game to get in the door, then they had zero excuse for not having at least a basic idea of what to do in higher tier stuff. Thus gave you a good way to know who was being sincere and who was trolling. There was/is a big difference in someone who passes the previous checks but get tripped up by a particular mechanic in a run but otherwise does great, and someone who comes in and just straight turns their brain off. First group was fine, second group had no business in there and were negative progress generators that were a liability to the team.
Lastly for this, virtually every game out there has some form of locks to keep people out of things before a certain part of progress has been reached. It can be locking certain items and content behind a specific level range, a reputation range, stats range, or similar. STO is actually the exception to the rule in that it lets you have far far more up front than other games do. So people acting I'm proposing something unheard of in gaming (not saying you but speaking generally) really have no leg to stand on. The key difference between elite vs other difficulties is that one person who is undergeared or underpowered can fail it for the rest of their team. It's beyond unreasonable in my book to expect 4 other people to deal with a guaranteed fail because the 5th guy wasn't ready and shouldn't have been in there to start with. One guy is being allowed to negatively impact the experience of the 4 other people and guarantee failure when it doesn't have to be that way. THAT is what I have an issue with. When I press the random button for whatever difficulty I should be able to count on my team to pull at least the basic minimum required to complete the content, if they're incapable of that, then they're not ready for that content and don't need to be in there, simple as that. Normal and advanced modes I don't care about as there is no guaranteed fail, however for elite there is.
Having systems in place to give people that path of progression gives goals to reach and shows people what they will need for certain content, and better prepares people, thus you have a more competent and better playerbase as a result. And you don't have to answer the same questions a billion times when alot of it can be covered by the dungeon journal. The ones who are serious about improving will improve, and the ones that refuse to learn and improve can just stay stuck where they're at.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
Sigh... If people queue for a random elite mission, they're going to have to deal with not knowing what they're going to get.
If that makes things too hard, they're not truly as elite as they'd like to think they are.
I'm sorry dude but you're way off base on this one. In today's day and age of the game there is zero legitimate reason ground and space specs should still be combined to start with. There is zero reason people should have to be artificially hampered because of an outdated mechanic when precedent for being able to have separate ground and space setups is already present. The tier 5 ground and space active reputation powers were split years ago for this same kind of reason. If they can split those abilities up so that I can use my ground abilities on ground and space abilities in space without having to constantly change my active rep powers, there is zero reason it can't be done with specializations. This particular thing he was referring to has nothing to do with "not being as elite as they think they are", but every bit to do with not wanting to be hampered by outdated mechanics.
By the logic you're using here, why are you using a warp core on your ship and why are you not using all standard issue mk i gear? If you're not doing that then I guess you're not as elite as you think you are. See how that flawed logic works?
Also on this point, the whole "deal with not knowing what you're getting" is only valid to a certain point. more on this below.
First people were asking for random and more elite content (because there was too much DPS and everything was too easy), now elite content must be made easier and more predictable because otherwise it won't be an easy grindfest and players might actually risk failing the mission.
Which, btw, would totally defeat the purpose of more and random elite content.
Funny thing is, this wish to see elite content being made easier is exactly what I warned against when people proposed more elite content as a solution for power creep.
It took only two days to prove I was, once again, right in my predictions.
Wanting the ability to switch your spec before the mission actually starts is not demanding easier content. Demanding easier content is when people get stomped because they're not ready then whine about the elites needing to not hit as hard or what have you because they can't deal.
Also there's a HUGE difference between getting a full team that's pulling the bare minimum but still has a chance to succeed vs a team where the 5th guy is so underpowered he couldn't even nuke a shuttle on normal mode thus guaranteeing the run to fail because he's not ready. The first one is perfectly fine and should be expected once in awhile. The second one shouldn't be happening at all as that 5th should've never been able to get in the door yet. Got nothing to do with people not wanting to fail, it's that people shouldn't have to eat a fail through no fault of their own because someone wasn't ready or the TFO screwed up.
'Exclude everyone I deem unfit from Elite and change the randomness of a random system for Elite, cause I might not be able to handle a wildcard' said no true elite player, ever.
You want to play elite content, play it.
You want to play 'elite' content but only in a safe environment because you don't want to deal with unexpected behaviour, as that might make things actually * gasp * challenging? Play pre-mades.
Again this only goes so far and is only valid to a certain point. It's also not about "excluding people I deem unfit" it's about making sure people are ready for the content. The game itself will dictate if someone is ready or not. If you go into a TFO that requires the team pull a combined 250k DPS, that means everyone on that team needs to pull a minimum of 50k to succeed. If your team only pulls 240k and the TFO fails, that is the game itself telling you that your team didn't do good enough to advance and to come back later. So the question becomes why did the team fail? Was this "that one run" where the perfect storm of events knocked a guy out before the final blow could be delivered on a particular foe? Or was this a run where 4 of the people in there were pulling the 50k minimum but the last guy was barely pulling 10k thus dooming the run from the start? Runs that fall into "that one perfect run" are perfectly normal. However the second shouldn't be happening at all.
One guy should not be able to cause an automatic fail and doom a run from the start because they can't stand the idea of not being told they're not yet ready for what they're trying to do. See my previous example I gave before. If you break your foot and have to go in for corrective surgery, who do you want operating on your foot. Do you want the guy who just started med school and doesn't know the first thing about corrective surgery, or do you want the guy who's been doing it for 10+ years? Same concept here, I want people to see content but not before they're ready and absolutely not at the expense of 4 other people. I'm sorry but no one person is so important they should be allowed to cause an automatic fail for 4 other people and waste their time like that. That's wholly unreasonable in my book.
With regards to your no true scottsmans, I'm sorry I meant "no true elite player" fallacy, are you playing with mk xv golds on your ship instead of mk xii very rare gear? Or better yet are you playing with anything above mk i standard issue? If you are then by your own logic you're not a true elite player. For something to be an actual challenge there has to be the possibility of success. If there is no possibility of success then it's not a true challenge but a time wasting rigged contest. Likewise I could also say if you don't want to have to meet a set of basic standards to get into random elites, go play premades where you can go in at any level whether you're ready or not. Again there's unexpected behavior and outright trolling. If you knowingly join a TFO that you're not ready for expecting the other 4 people to just suck it up and deal, that is trolling in my book.
When you press the random button, by extension you are telling the system and the rest of your team you are capable of doing the bare minimum required by the content itself. If you can't do that then sorry but you have no business in there. Again if this was advanced or normal I wouldn't care because there is no possibility of failure. However groups should NOT have to deal with a 5th teammate causing an automatic fail for them because they weren't ready.
Lastly, making sure people are ready for the content they're trying to join by having systems in place to give a path of progression will lessen said calls for nerfs. Aside from game busting issues, the chief reason people call for nerfs is that they think it's too hard or not fun. Part of this comes from being at a level below a specific threshold. I fail to see how it's so unreasonable to some people to expect that your teammates be able to do the basic minimum the TFO itself requires to not fail. Good grief.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
Sigh... If people queue for a random elite mission, they're going to have to deal with not knowing what they're going to get.
If that makes things too hard, they're not truly as elite as they'd like to think they are.
I'm sorry dude but you're way off base on this one. In today's day and age of the game there is zero legitimate reason ground and space specs should still be combined to start with. There is zero reason people should have to be artificially hampered because of an outdated mechanic when precedent for being able to have separate ground and space setups is already present. The tier 5 ground and space active reputation powers were split years ago for this same kind of reason. If they can split those abilities up so that I can use my ground abilities on ground and space abilities in space without having to constantly change my active rep powers, there is zero reason it can't be done with specializations. This particular thing he was referring to has nothing to do with "not being as elite as they think they are", but every bit to do with not wanting to be hampered by outdated mechanics.
By the logic you're using here, why are you using a warp core on your ship and why are you not using all standard issue mk i gear? If you're not doing that then I guess you're not as elite as you think you are. See how that flawed logic works?
Also on this point, the whole "deal with not knowing what you're getting" is only valid to a certain point. more on this below.
First people were asking for random and more elite content (because there was too much DPS and everything was too easy), now elite content must be made easier and more predictable because otherwise it won't be an easy grindfest and players might actually risk failing the mission.
Which, btw, would totally defeat the purpose of more and random elite content.
Funny thing is, this wish to see elite content being made easier is exactly what I warned against when people proposed more elite content as a solution for power creep.
It took only two days to prove I was, once again, right in my predictions.
Wanting the ability to switch your spec before the mission actually starts is not demanding easier content. Demanding easier content is when people get stomped because they're not ready then whine about the elites needing to not hit as hard or what have you because they can't deal.
Also there's a HUGE difference between getting a full team that's pulling the bare minimum but still has a chance to succeed vs a team where the 5th guy is so underpowered he couldn't even nuke a shuttle on normal mode thus guaranteeing the run to fail because he's not ready. The first one is perfectly fine and should be expected once in awhile. The second one shouldn't be happening at all as that 5th should've never been able to get in the door yet. Got nothing to do with people not wanting to fail, it's that people shouldn't have to eat a fail through no fault of their own because someone wasn't ready or the TFO screwed up.
'Exclude everyone I deem unfit from Elite and change the randomness of a random system for Elite, cause I might not be able to handle a wildcard' said no true elite player, ever.
You want to play elite content, play it.
You want to play 'elite' content but only in a safe environment because you don't want to deal with unexpected behaviour, as that might make things actually * gasp * challenging? Play pre-mades.
Again this only goes so far and is only valid to a certain point. It's also not about "excluding people I deem unfit" it's about making sure people are ready for the content. The game itself will dictate if someone is ready or not. If you go into a TFO that requires the team pull a combined 250k DPS, that means everyone on that team needs to pull a minimum of 50k to succeed. If your team only pulls 240k and the TFO fails, that is the game itself telling you that your team didn't do good enough to advance and to come back later. So the question becomes why did the team fail? Was this "that one run" where the perfect storm of events knocked a guy out before the final blow could be delivered on a particular foe? Or was this a run where 4 of the people in there were pulling the 50k minimum but the last guy was barely pulling 10k thus dooming the run from the start? Runs that fall into "that one perfect run" are perfectly normal. However the second shouldn't be happening at all.
One guy should not be able to cause an automatic fail and doom a run from the start because they can't stand the idea of not being told they're not yet ready for what they're trying to do. See my previous example I gave before. If you break your foot and have to go in for corrective surgery, who do you want operating on your foot. Do you want the guy who just started med school and doesn't know the first thing about corrective surgery, or do you want the guy who's been doing it for 10+ years? Same concept here, I want people to see content but not before they're ready and absolutely not at the expense of 4 other people. I'm sorry but no one person is so important they should be allowed to cause an automatic fail for 4 other people and waste their time like that. That's wholly unreasonable in my book.
With regards to your no true scottsmans, I'm sorry I meant "no true elite player" fallacy, are you playing with mk xv golds on your ship instead of mk xii very rare gear? Or better yet are you playing with anything above mk i standard issue? If you are then by your own logic you're not a true elite player. For something to be an actual challenge there has to be the possibility of success. If there is no possibility of success then it's not a true challenge but a time wasting rigged contest. Likewise I could also say if you don't want to have to meet a set of basic standards to get into random elites, go play premades where you can go in at any level whether you're ready or not. Again there's unexpected behavior and outright trolling. If you knowingly join a TFO that you're not ready for expecting the other 4 people to just suck it up and deal, that is trolling in my book.
When you press the random button, by extension you are telling the system and the rest of your team you are capable of doing the bare minimum required by the content itself. If you can't do that then sorry but you have no business in there. Again if this was advanced or normal I wouldn't care because there is no possibility of failure. However groups should NOT have to deal with a 5th teammate causing an automatic fail for them because they weren't ready.
Lastly, making sure people are ready for the content they're trying to join by having systems in place to give a path of progression will lessen said calls for nerfs. Aside from game busting issues, the chief reason people call for nerfs is that they think it's too hard or not fun. Part of this comes from being at a level below a specific threshold. I fail to see how it's so unreasonable to some people to expect that your teammates be able to do the basic minimum the TFO itself requires to not fail. Good grief.
The only 'whining' here seems to come from people playing random elites but not wanting to deal with the random element.
There are easy solutions to that: don't queue for random content, queue for a specific elite mission. The game works like that for all difficulties. Extra rewards were implemented as compensation for having to deal with uncertainty. Wanting the additional rewards but not wanting to deal with the uncertainty comes off as being entitled.
In the same vein: don't PUG if you don't want to deal with players who aren't prepared or who don't meet some specific requirement.
I'm sure you are aware that DPS- and related channels that have been built specifically around meeting such requirements have existed for a while?
I've been carrying groups in PUGS since forever (not on elite obviously, but on the other 95% of the game's queued content). That's my own choice and I make it because I like the randomness and challenge it presents. Meaning I can't reasonably complain about it, since I chose to use the system myself.
Honestly, in my opinion, there really isn't a problem here.
There's only people making certain choices, while not wanting to accept the consequences of those choices - despite the system being specifically designed to have those consequences in the first place, since you are compensated for having to deal with them.
I don't think the Devs need to change anything just because some people feel entitled to extra rewards without having to pay the price for them.
Or because they want to use a system without having to deal with its downsides, even though a perfectly fine functioning substitute already exists (ie, forming pre-mades).
Seriously, what exactly is the problem here, besides a certain amount of entitlement and some people choosing to create a problem because they refuse to use solutions that have literally existed since the beginning of the game?
The only 'whining' here seems to come from people playing random elites but not wanting to deal with the random element.
There are easy solutions to that: don't queue for random content, queue for a specific elite mission. The game works like that for all difficulties. Extra rewards were implemented as compensation for having to deal with uncertainty. Wanting the additional rewards but not wanting to deal with the uncertainty comes off as being entitled.
And I can just as easily say the opposite. People joining TFOs before they're ready are entitled because they're expecting the 4 other people to do their own job plus that of a second person so one guy can receive rewards he has not earned. Wanting the extra rewards but not put in the extra work to get them is entitlement.
In the same vein: don't PUG if you don't want to deal with players who aren't prepared or who don't meet some specific requirement.
I'm sure you are aware that DPS- and related channels that have been built specifically around meeting such requirements have existed for a while?
I've been carrying groups in PUGS since forever (not on elite obviously, but on the other 95% of the game's queued content). That's my own choice and I make it because I like the randomness and challenge it presents. Meaning I can't reasonably complain about it, since I chose to use the system myself.
So let me get this straight. According to you it's entitlement for me to expect people to be able to meet the minimum standards the TFO itself demands from the team to avoid an autofail, and not wanting to do my job plus that of a second person to give him a free ride. Yet it's NOT entitlement for that person to expect the team to do his job and their own thus giving him free rewards. And my "price" for being able to even use the random elite feature is to potentially do twice the work or eat an autofail I shouldn't be eating or be locked out of even using the feature, all because one guy can't bear to be told he's not ready for content and needs to do better.
Because that's not how that works. Why should I or anyone else in this game have to do my job plus yours too? No one in this game is so important that they're entitled to a free ride at the expense of their team. By the logic you're using here any game that's ever locked anything behind an achievement, level range, reputation, or made you earn anything at all without handing it to you is the game developers acting entitled. Like seriously I have to ask, if I'm now expected to carry people who aren't ready doing my job and theirs too, do you want me to log into their account and play the game for them too? Because you may as well be saying that. For that matter that logic can translate over to real life too. Now instead of having teams earn their way into the playoffs and shot at the super bowl we may as well just give every team super bowl rings and the titles since it would be entitlement to demand they earn it.
I don't like the idea of having to tell certain people they're not ready yet anymore than you do, but fact remains there are some people out there who simply are not yet well enough equipped, and don't yet have the skills necessary for elite content. Now with that said, I don't want to simply leave those people in that state, which is why I have advocated the dungeon journal, proving grounds and gear check systems or some variant of them. It allows them to see what they need in order to survive and clear the content, regardless of the path they use to get there. It also gives them resources they could potentially test with and that also tells them where they can get certain things. Which blows my mind that people routinely complain that the game doesn't do enough to help people, then turn around reject something like a dungeon journal or other systems that can do exactly that.
Nothing is stopping people from forming their own groups and carrying their friends through something if that's what they want to do. Far as I'm concerned if they want to take their level 5 friend into an eltie (even though the game is elitist and won't allow that) in their private group, then by all means. Private groups are a different ballgame to public ones. And I'm sorry but what is best for the majority should always trump the minority when it comes to stuff like this. It's beyond unreasonable to expect random people to carry their weight plus that of a second person all because that second person can't take being told they need to improve and come back. Expecting 4 random people to carry someone to free rewards is no different than going up to random people on the street and demanding they help you pack up your house and help you move for free. Good grief.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
Comments
Sigh... If people queue for a random elite mission, they're going to have to deal with not knowing what they're going to get.
If that makes things too hard, they're not truly as elite as they'd like to think they are.
Which, btw, would totally defeat the purpose of more and random elite content.
Funny thing is, this wish to see elite content being made easier is exactly what I warned against when people proposed more elite content as a solution for power creep.
It took only two days to prove I was, once again, right in my predictions.
You want to play elite content, play it.
You want to play 'elite' content but only in a safe environment because you don't want to deal with unexpected behaviour, as that might make things actually * gasp * challenging? Play pre-mades.
While I don't like the core idea of Random Elite and prefer the old system before it was removed. There is no reason players should have problems going into a random Elite in the current state of the game.
Thankfully epic ground is a breeze compared to epic space but I think it would be a very nice thing for a lot of players to be able to prepare properly as it is "random" which one we get.
I could get behind this suggestion.
I even think it is in alignment with the Star Trek universe in general. You may not know the sort of damage you might face when you get there but in general you would know if you are going to be leaving your ship.
Only got one in last night (Defense of SB1 Elite) and that one went without a hitch.
It may not be representative of the whole, but first impression is that those who sign in at this time appear to know their level of competency.
Pulling these sections as they seem to be the bulk of the argument. The systems I've proposed are meant to make sure people are ready for the content they're trying to join. If this was advanced mode or especially normal I wouldn't care. The difference between those an elite is that in elite mode if a single person isn't prepared for the content then that run is an automatic fail that wastes the time of 4 other people. And in my book no one single person is so important that they should be allowed to do that. Not every run is going to go perfect and even with the systems I've proposed I'm fully aware there would be "that one run" where something went haywire and it still failed. However there is a huge difference between "that one run" and someone joining something they're not ready for, be it knowingly or unknowingly.
WoW ran into this issue where you had people joining content they weren't ready for and it made it so that over half the runs would fail because people were not ready. Trying to join the equivalent of elite content when they're freshly leveled and have on pure quest greens that are a mix match of levels from 1 to max level. Again I want to see people experience content BUT not at the expense of the rest of the team. You're correct that STO is different in the fact it doesn't have the traditional trinity structure. If anything STO is more of a duo system of tank and DPS with the ability to heal yourself distributed evenly between the two. You could say it's akin to World of Warships in that matter. My problem is that in allowing people to join elite content before they've reached a certain level of gear, demonstrated a certain level of competency and such it's akin to allowing someone in a level 1 ship in World of Warships to join a tier 10 match. That person is going to get vaporized quickly and isn't going to be able to do anything at all to contribute. Or think of it like this to borrow from a real world analogy. If you break your foot and need corrective surgery as a result, do you want the guy who just got into med school that day and doesn't know the first thing about surgery operating on your foot, or the guy that's graduated med school and been doing those surgeries for 10+ years? Yes I know it's not an exact 1:1 comparison but you get the idea.
Two things can be true at once, you can improve already existing systems AND implement new stuff. New traits, consoles and the like are implemented all the time so this idea that some people have that new mechanics couldn't be introduced is simply untrue. You're also correct that the dungeon journal wouldn't work if people don't read it, however this goes back to some of my previous posts in that it's no different than people refusing to listen to briefings or read them, then whining that they don't know what to do.
The reason the systems work in WoW, SWTOR and similar is it does 3 things that removes virtually all excuses from people to not be able to do the basic level demanded by the higher difficulties. First is it makes sure you have good enough equipment to survive and contribute to the team on paper. This way you're not coming into content something like Korfez with a tier 2 ship using all standard issue mk i whites. It's not going to be fun for you, and it's not going to be fun for the team. Second is it makes sure you have a decent enough grasp on your class to be able to contribute and survive. Such as DPS not standing in dumb, healers knowing when to purge debuffs or when to focus single heals vs aoe, and tanks knowing not to point the cleave at the group or when to taunt and pop defensives and such. You don't have to be perfect at it, just have a basic level of understanding. Third with the dungeon journal is it's the equivalent to having footnotes on different enemies available all the time in game where you can read what they do and then formulate your own strategies AND tells you where you can get certain gear for your builds. Such as someone who wants Tetryon but doesn't know where all to get it.
If someone was capable of getting enough basic gear to get in the door, could demonstrate they knew enough of their class and the game to get in the door, then they had zero excuse for not having at least a basic idea of what to do in higher tier stuff. Thus gave you a good way to know who was being sincere and who was trolling. There was/is a big difference in someone who passes the previous checks but get tripped up by a particular mechanic in a run but otherwise does great, and someone who comes in and just straight turns their brain off. First group was fine, second group had no business in there and were negative progress generators that were a liability to the team.
Lastly for this, virtually every game out there has some form of locks to keep people out of things before a certain part of progress has been reached. It can be locking certain items and content behind a specific level range, a reputation range, stats range, or similar. STO is actually the exception to the rule in that it lets you have far far more up front than other games do. So people acting I'm proposing something unheard of in gaming (not saying you but speaking generally) really have no leg to stand on. The key difference between elite vs other difficulties is that one person who is undergeared or underpowered can fail it for the rest of their team. It's beyond unreasonable in my book to expect 4 other people to deal with a guaranteed fail because the 5th guy wasn't ready and shouldn't have been in there to start with. One guy is being allowed to negatively impact the experience of the 4 other people and guarantee failure when it doesn't have to be that way. THAT is what I have an issue with. When I press the random button for whatever difficulty I should be able to count on my team to pull at least the basic minimum required to complete the content, if they're incapable of that, then they're not ready for that content and don't need to be in there, simple as that. Normal and advanced modes I don't care about as there is no guaranteed fail, however for elite there is.
Having systems in place to give people that path of progression gives goals to reach and shows people what they will need for certain content, and better prepares people, thus you have a more competent and better playerbase as a result. And you don't have to answer the same questions a billion times when alot of it can be covered by the dungeon journal. The ones who are serious about improving will improve, and the ones that refuse to learn and improve can just stay stuck where they're at.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
I'm sorry dude but you're way off base on this one. In today's day and age of the game there is zero legitimate reason ground and space specs should still be combined to start with. There is zero reason people should have to be artificially hampered because of an outdated mechanic when precedent for being able to have separate ground and space setups is already present. The tier 5 ground and space active reputation powers were split years ago for this same kind of reason. If they can split those abilities up so that I can use my ground abilities on ground and space abilities in space without having to constantly change my active rep powers, there is zero reason it can't be done with specializations. This particular thing he was referring to has nothing to do with "not being as elite as they think they are", but every bit to do with not wanting to be hampered by outdated mechanics.
By the logic you're using here, why are you using a warp core on your ship and why are you not using all standard issue mk i gear? If you're not doing that then I guess you're not as elite as you think you are. See how that flawed logic works?
Also on this point, the whole "deal with not knowing what you're getting" is only valid to a certain point. more on this below.
Wanting the ability to switch your spec before the mission actually starts is not demanding easier content. Demanding easier content is when people get stomped because they're not ready then whine about the elites needing to not hit as hard or what have you because they can't deal.
Also there's a HUGE difference between getting a full team that's pulling the bare minimum but still has a chance to succeed vs a team where the 5th guy is so underpowered he couldn't even nuke a shuttle on normal mode thus guaranteeing the run to fail because he's not ready. The first one is perfectly fine and should be expected once in awhile. The second one shouldn't be happening at all as that 5th should've never been able to get in the door yet. Got nothing to do with people not wanting to fail, it's that people shouldn't have to eat a fail through no fault of their own because someone wasn't ready or the TFO screwed up.
Again this only goes so far and is only valid to a certain point. It's also not about "excluding people I deem unfit" it's about making sure people are ready for the content. The game itself will dictate if someone is ready or not. If you go into a TFO that requires the team pull a combined 250k DPS, that means everyone on that team needs to pull a minimum of 50k to succeed. If your team only pulls 240k and the TFO fails, that is the game itself telling you that your team didn't do good enough to advance and to come back later. So the question becomes why did the team fail? Was this "that one run" where the perfect storm of events knocked a guy out before the final blow could be delivered on a particular foe? Or was this a run where 4 of the people in there were pulling the 50k minimum but the last guy was barely pulling 10k thus dooming the run from the start? Runs that fall into "that one perfect run" are perfectly normal. However the second shouldn't be happening at all.
One guy should not be able to cause an automatic fail and doom a run from the start because they can't stand the idea of not being told they're not yet ready for what they're trying to do. See my previous example I gave before. If you break your foot and have to go in for corrective surgery, who do you want operating on your foot. Do you want the guy who just started med school and doesn't know the first thing about corrective surgery, or do you want the guy who's been doing it for 10+ years? Same concept here, I want people to see content but not before they're ready and absolutely not at the expense of 4 other people. I'm sorry but no one person is so important they should be allowed to cause an automatic fail for 4 other people and waste their time like that. That's wholly unreasonable in my book.
With regards to your no true scottsmans, I'm sorry I meant "no true elite player" fallacy, are you playing with mk xv golds on your ship instead of mk xii very rare gear? Or better yet are you playing with anything above mk i standard issue? If you are then by your own logic you're not a true elite player. For something to be an actual challenge there has to be the possibility of success. If there is no possibility of success then it's not a true challenge but a time wasting rigged contest. Likewise I could also say if you don't want to have to meet a set of basic standards to get into random elites, go play premades where you can go in at any level whether you're ready or not. Again there's unexpected behavior and outright trolling. If you knowingly join a TFO that you're not ready for expecting the other 4 people to just suck it up and deal, that is trolling in my book.
When you press the random button, by extension you are telling the system and the rest of your team you are capable of doing the bare minimum required by the content itself. If you can't do that then sorry but you have no business in there. Again if this was advanced or normal I wouldn't care because there is no possibility of failure. However groups should NOT have to deal with a 5th teammate causing an automatic fail for them because they weren't ready.
Lastly, making sure people are ready for the content they're trying to join by having systems in place to give a path of progression will lessen said calls for nerfs. Aside from game busting issues, the chief reason people call for nerfs is that they think it's too hard or not fun. Part of this comes from being at a level below a specific threshold. I fail to see how it's so unreasonable to some people to expect that your teammates be able to do the basic minimum the TFO itself requires to not fail. Good grief.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
The only 'whining' here seems to come from people playing random elites but not wanting to deal with the random element.
There are easy solutions to that: don't queue for random content, queue for a specific elite mission. The game works like that for all difficulties. Extra rewards were implemented as compensation for having to deal with uncertainty. Wanting the additional rewards but not wanting to deal with the uncertainty comes off as being entitled.
In the same vein: don't PUG if you don't want to deal with players who aren't prepared or who don't meet some specific requirement.
I'm sure you are aware that DPS- and related channels that have been built specifically around meeting such requirements have existed for a while?
I've been carrying groups in PUGS since forever (not on elite obviously, but on the other 95% of the game's queued content). That's my own choice and I make it because I like the randomness and challenge it presents. Meaning I can't reasonably complain about it, since I chose to use the system myself.
There's only people making certain choices, while not wanting to accept the consequences of those choices - despite the system being specifically designed to have those consequences in the first place, since you are compensated for having to deal with them.
I don't think the Devs need to change anything just because some people feel entitled to extra rewards without having to pay the price for them.
Or because they want to use a system without having to deal with its downsides, even though a perfectly fine functioning substitute already exists (ie, forming pre-mades).
Seriously, what exactly is the problem here, besides a certain amount of entitlement and some people choosing to create a problem because they refuse to use solutions that have literally existed since the beginning of the game?
And I can just as easily say the opposite. People joining TFOs before they're ready are entitled because they're expecting the 4 other people to do their own job plus that of a second person so one guy can receive rewards he has not earned. Wanting the extra rewards but not put in the extra work to get them is entitlement.
See how that works?
So let me get this straight. According to you it's entitlement for me to expect people to be able to meet the minimum standards the TFO itself demands from the team to avoid an autofail, and not wanting to do my job plus that of a second person to give him a free ride. Yet it's NOT entitlement for that person to expect the team to do his job and their own thus giving him free rewards. And my "price" for being able to even use the random elite feature is to potentially do twice the work or eat an autofail I shouldn't be eating or be locked out of even using the feature, all because one guy can't bear to be told he's not ready for content and needs to do better.
Because that's not how that works. Why should I or anyone else in this game have to do my job plus yours too? No one in this game is so important that they're entitled to a free ride at the expense of their team. By the logic you're using here any game that's ever locked anything behind an achievement, level range, reputation, or made you earn anything at all without handing it to you is the game developers acting entitled. Like seriously I have to ask, if I'm now expected to carry people who aren't ready doing my job and theirs too, do you want me to log into their account and play the game for them too? Because you may as well be saying that. For that matter that logic can translate over to real life too. Now instead of having teams earn their way into the playoffs and shot at the super bowl we may as well just give every team super bowl rings and the titles since it would be entitlement to demand they earn it.
I don't like the idea of having to tell certain people they're not ready yet anymore than you do, but fact remains there are some people out there who simply are not yet well enough equipped, and don't yet have the skills necessary for elite content. Now with that said, I don't want to simply leave those people in that state, which is why I have advocated the dungeon journal, proving grounds and gear check systems or some variant of them. It allows them to see what they need in order to survive and clear the content, regardless of the path they use to get there. It also gives them resources they could potentially test with and that also tells them where they can get certain things. Which blows my mind that people routinely complain that the game doesn't do enough to help people, then turn around reject something like a dungeon journal or other systems that can do exactly that.
Nothing is stopping people from forming their own groups and carrying their friends through something if that's what they want to do. Far as I'm concerned if they want to take their level 5 friend into an eltie (even though the game is elitist and won't allow that) in their private group, then by all means. Private groups are a different ballgame to public ones. And I'm sorry but what is best for the majority should always trump the minority when it comes to stuff like this. It's beyond unreasonable to expect random people to carry their weight plus that of a second person all because that second person can't take being told they need to improve and come back. Expecting 4 random people to carry someone to free rewards is no different than going up to random people on the street and demanding they help you pack up your house and help you move for free. Good grief.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator