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[a pvp plea] I wasn't going to post this but i changed my mind
vanhyo
Member Posts: 229 Arc User
So i have a friend, who back in the day was probably one of the best pvpers out there, but as of late or shall i say the past few years i rarely ever see him pvping. Just today i asked him whats up with his activity, and why doesn't he pvp anyone, his reply was "you know how sh1eet stealth spam is bb gl" .
Probably, if you see my posting history, you will see that from time to time i bring this topic for discussion and by now i probably gave up but my friend's reply i think gave me energy for one more try, maybe someone will read it and hopefully be in a good mood to do something about it.
There problem is very simple, stealth spam is massive headache, so is untargetable. It is bad enough for seasoned players, its 100x times worst for non-pvp players who are just target practice that cannot shoot back.
Any heavy handed solution will do, but just in case you guys are open to ideas, let me propose something
1.Intel team - gives stealth only vs Pets, NPCs, and targetable torpedos
2.Untargetable mechanics - split into 2:
- if you can shoot while untargetable it only works vs Pets, NPCs, and targetable torpedos
- if you can't shoot back while untargetable stays unchanged
Mr. Bret from (Bret's Gaming Channel) have been making videos complaining about this and suggesting soft adjustments, i am respecfully of the opposite opinion, i think all players regardless of knowledge or skill should have atleast the ability to shoot back, players are supposed to have fun, not cancer.
Also let me show you what i am talking about in an image
Probably, if you see my posting history, you will see that from time to time i bring this topic for discussion and by now i probably gave up but my friend's reply i think gave me energy for one more try, maybe someone will read it and hopefully be in a good mood to do something about it.
There problem is very simple, stealth spam is massive headache, so is untargetable. It is bad enough for seasoned players, its 100x times worst for non-pvp players who are just target practice that cannot shoot back.
Any heavy handed solution will do, but just in case you guys are open to ideas, let me propose something
1.Intel team - gives stealth only vs Pets, NPCs, and targetable torpedos
2.Untargetable mechanics - split into 2:
- if you can shoot while untargetable it only works vs Pets, NPCs, and targetable torpedos
- if you can't shoot back while untargetable stays unchanged
Mr. Bret from (Bret's Gaming Channel) have been making videos complaining about this and suggesting soft adjustments, i am respecfully of the opposite opinion, i think all players regardless of knowledge or skill should have atleast the ability to shoot back, players are supposed to have fun, not cancer.
Also let me show you what i am talking about in an image
Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
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This discussion has been closed.
Comments
"Sorry mom, the mob has spoken. Monorail!"
There's nothing wrong with asking for PVP changes, they are just very unlikely to happen.
99% of STO players do not want PVP, they are here for PVE. That means a business like Cryptic probably does not see value in putting resources into PVP instead of PVE. Cryptic already has to turn down many PVE feature requests and bug fixes because it lacks the resources for them so any PVP requests are almost certainly going to be ignored.
For your space PVP needs you either need to find people to do it with agreed-on constraints (instead of PUG matches) or look for other games.
That said, i feel the biggest problems are a small toxic group hanging out at the first PVP experience points (warzone) and an absence of a reasonable learning curve.
It's not even a monetary issue, because the basics can be achieved with a free to play build.
With that in mind, I will agree I don't think people should be able to indefinitely chain abilities that make on untargetable. At the same time those abilities are still part of the game and valid abilities to use. I would argue that being able to insta vape someone in one go is far far more toxic than the untargetable spam ever was. Not to mention the spawn camping in places like Kur'rat. Decloak, fire everything, vape player in one hit because of cheese mechanic allowing damage to all be applied at once and kill a person through maxed out resists, vanish and then rinse and repeat each time. Sorry but I will never acknowledge that as skill. Then there's the generally toxic attitudes of far too many in the pvp community that I've ran into who are not interested in helping anyone should they decide to actually pvp. Unless you're part of the "in" crowd they treat people like an outcast and try to talk down to everyone else.
The last round of fixes that came about were because they were legitimate bugs with abilities that needed to be fixed, not purely because of the pvp implications of them. The fact that it also threw a bit of a bone to the pvp crowd was just an added benefit in that instance. Lambda needed to be fixed because it was applying incorrect bonuses/debuffs, Reroute Reserves needed to be fixed because we were missing a full rank of the power, and on down the line we go.
This gets to an even bigger question I'm going to ask. If I want to put together a pve build that lets me spam abilities making me untargetable, why should my ability to do so be hampered purely because the pvp guys don't like it? Unless there is a complete separation between pvp and pve, under the current system we have, a change made to one will effect the other because that's just how it is.
I highlighted a particular part of your post in bold because it's relevant to what I'm going to say in a minute. I get that you're passionate about pvp and you're allowed to like what you like, likewise so am I. The thing I wish the pvp folks would get through their heads is that most folks in this game have no interest in pvp. It's not because we "need to just try it for a day" or "because we lose all the time" or whatever other excuse people want to throw out there. My problem isn't even the concept of pvp itself, my problem is that I got enough of PVP to last me a lifetime from my WoW days and I find too often pvp brings out the worst in people. If I wanted to deal with that I would go back to WoW, and if I decide to pvp it will be on my own terms.
You're not going to draw people into pvp who have no interest in it. Your best bet if you want things to change for pvp is to form groups with like minded people with terms and rules spelled out in advance.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
That's me. There are many types of gameplay that I like, and many types that I do not enjoy.
"Just try PVP / Madden 20xx / Golf game X / fighting game Y / hardcore survival sim Z / etc. for a day" doesn't make sense for me since I already know that I do not enjoy those games.
Sadly, the 25 percent of PvE players that want something more than waves of enemies on a timer followed by auto-completion rarely if ever get thrown a bone either. I often wish the wide eyed casual PvE crowd would try to be a bit more open minded when it comes to other groups requesting a little bit of dev time once every 5-10 years.
I'm always amazed how they manage to turn things around so somehow it's almost as if you're at fault for even daring to make such a post.
I guess it's only natural with dev time being at a premium that we're all like rats at the dinner table fighting for a scrap of food lol. We are all so very passionate.
Well hopefully they know that the things they do are appreciated even though the focus is often on what they don't do
I didn't read they where asking for abilities to be nerfed. OP was asking for PvP cut outs. Something Cryptic has already done for many skills. (Even recent new stuff).
If a skill like Intel team... changes to read. Target stealth applies to NPCs only. How does that effect you in PvE Land ? ?
It doesn't of course. It only effects people in PvP.
Cryptics skills are capable of working that way... as many skills provide reduced or zero buff against players.
IMO Intel team should have always broke when X amount of dmg was put out like a Jam sensors. It should never have been essentially enhanced cloak in PvP or PvE.
P.S. i am a freebie
@blackshap9 i am not sure how you know this, yes we had a game that was a zombiefest, it ended a draw 7-7 after antagonizing long time but i don't share your pessimism, the fixes are easy, just small but clever adjustments.
Ah so vapers who chain a bunch of abilities together to cheese damage mechanics in pvp are fine because you personally don't seem to have an issue with it. But if someone chains abilities granting super high amounts of stealth or that grants effects making one untargetable, it suddenly needs to be changed because you consider it a headache? If you have no issues working within mechanics to get past vape builds, what is stopping you from working around the stealth and untargetable mechanics save your own unwillingness to do so?
This is one of the things I named above that irks me about pvp. Because someone has a problem dealing with a certain mechanic it's suddenly unfair and needs to be nerfed, but the mechanics they personally like are just fine and don't need to be touched. People claim they want balance in pvp, but I find more often than not what they mean by "balance" is they want to have an "I win" button they can press at any time when they get tired of fighting their opponent, but they don't want the opponent to have access to that same thing. Personally I despise vape mechanics and think damage stacking shouldn't work the way it does. However my disliking the mechanics on its own doesn't suddenly make those mechanics invalid or mean they need to be nerfed. Likewise you disliking the stealth and untargetable mechanics doesn't mean they need to be nerfed just because you don't like them.
Before I posted this, I went back and did a little research on some of the abilities you mentioned here as big issues and checked the cooldowns of everything to see what's possible and what's not. I also compared notes with a few people to gauge the stats involved with stealth vs perception and so on. I wanted to do a double take of what you posted above and break it down. I will never claim I know everything, but I know enough to know when someone is trying to make a bigger deal of something than it actually is. So let's begin with the bits involving stealth vs perception.
There are ways one can cheese alot of stealth rating, but even with 5335 stealth rating, you can still be seen. It's a matter of what is higher, the stealth or the perception. If you get hit with a perception debuff, that's going to hamper your ability to see a target and is essentially the same as them having gained additional stealth rating for the duration of the debuff. If that puts their stealth above your perception, you won't see them. That's not making them untargetable, that's mechanics at play that are working as intended. Trajector Jump also lasts for only two seconds and they lose it. If your perception is higher than their stealth rating, that 2 seconds of +5115 stealth rating means nothing even if they do use it.
Now for the other abilities with the untargetable chaining, I actually went back and verified a few things with those powers you threw out in the photo. Fortunately for me is I actually use a few of those powers on occasion, with Trajector Jump having been one of them. Trajector Jump's cooldown can't be manipulated, nor can Fluidic Phase Jump, or Picard Maneuver like people would want.
-Picard Maneuver: this ability has a 5 second up time on the untargetable effect and a 1 minute recharge.
-Temporal Surge: has a minmum lockout of 40 seconds before it can be used again for a 10 second up time with a -80% duration in pvp. 2 second uptime in pvp
-Fluidic Phase Jump: has a 5 second up time on untargetable and a 2 min cooldown.
-Evade Target Lock III: in your case 7.3 seconds of uptime and 1 min base recharge time with 20 second global minimum.
Assuming you chained everything as soon as it comes up, you're still looking at maybe 50% uptime. Is it annoying sure, but it's still part of the game. You're certainly free to request it be altered, but looking at the mechanical interactions it's hardly the indefinite chaining you're making it out to be. The only way I could ever see to do so would be to make a dedicated control build to cheese Evade Target Lock III off the control expertise scaling and chain that one ability over and over, which would be an issue with that ability itself and not any of the others. You're talking very niche scenarios here.
Still with all of this said, you're asking them to make changes to something that 99% of this game's playerbase will never see, because it annoys the other 1% even though it's working as intended. You can certainly do that, but don't expect them to jump at it if they do. It's going to be much much lower on the priority list if it ever happens. You've also failed to explain why a non-pvp player would be in a pvp situation to start with.
Don't see where that's been asked for. I will point it out.
See relevant lines in bold.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
Its not an opinon that stealth and untargetable is getting too much, it is a commonly agreed fact of reality
"but even with 5335 stealth rating, you can still be seen."
effective stealth on intel spammer is 6100++
Thank you for proving my point I made before. You don't see vape builds as an issue therefore they're perfectly fine, but because you don't like untargetable and stealth abilities it's suddenly everyone automatically agrees with you and it's a "fact of reality" that they need to be nerfed. When someone like myself breaks down the mechanics to show it's not what you claim it is, you bust out a variant of "you only think that because you lose all the time" while insulting my build and bumping your chest with a phony bravado of "come to ker'rat and I'll show you how bad you suck" kind of deal. And then you wonder why folks in this game want very little or nothing to do with PVP.
You came on here asking them to change something for pvp, which 99% of this game has no interest in but would effect them anyways due to change in their abilities. You tried to present a select few abilities as reasons to why the change needs to happen for this small minority of people. When I break the mechanics down and provide evidence to show it's not what you claim, you go straight to the "why don't you come fight me in ker'rat and I'll prove you wrong" bravado instead of providing further evidence to back up your claim. I'm not impressed by the bravado dude, nor do I have anything to prove to you or anyone else in this game. My self-esteem doesn't depend on what people in a video game think of me nor is my life somehow diminished because a very small minority of people in said game don't like me.
Whether you like it or not, saying "it's not an opinion that stealth and untargetable is getting too much" is in fact your opinion, nothing more nothing less. What you need to realize is you're not automatically right and others automatically wrong simply because you have an opinion. To think you are somehow automatically correct and others automatically wrong shows a level of arrogance that makes me less interested in actually throwing my support behind requesting changes.
Do you know why I threw my support behind the Lambda changes, Reroute Reserve fix, and the other issues Bret outlined in one of his videos? The guy approached me like an adult, we talked about the issue, and he presented his evidence to show there were legitimate bugs and issues. Because he was able to demonstrate there were bugs and clear issues using evidence, I threw my support behind it as did others who were present. That's how you get people to support your cause.
When you came here and made the claim something needs to change, thus you bear the burden of proof to demonstrate how this is an issue and why it should be changed. You say I'm wrong, okay let's see what evidence you base this claim on. What other evidence if any do you have? You say it's a "commonly agreed fact of reality", though I would ask commonly agreed by who? If it's a "commonly agreed fact of reality" then certainly you have no problems providing additional evidences to show how this is an issue and not just you wanting something nerfed you don't like. Because honestly that's how it comes across right now. By all means if you have evidence, convince me otherwise.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
Couple of issues. Both of your statements in bold can't be true at the same time. If KDF was exclusively pvp, then they never had a pve experience like you're claiming. If both sides had a pve and pvp experience, then KDF was not exclusively pvp like you're claiming. So which of the two statements in bold is the truth? Because two contradictory statements can't be true at the same time in the same way.
There was alot more that went on with pvp way back in the day that much is true and not in debate. However because something was more prominent back then doesn't mean the game was designed around said concept. If something has a pvp and pve experience, it means the game was designed initially with both of those in mind without catering exclusively to one or the other. So to pretend that KDF's only purpose was pvp is just flat out wrong.
As for the Foundry, this is the only thing I'm going to say on this as it's been done to death. Foundry was removed because it kept breaking and the people who initially created it were no longer with the company. It took them longer and longer to fix it because it was essentially an official Cryptic mod to the game in terms of functionality. It got to the point it was no longer feasible to maintain. I know people want to believe they just didn't care and let it die because (nefarious reason here) but that's not how it worked. As the game went on it became more and more obsolete and harder to maintain. Similarly the exploration system picked from different tile sets, mission parameters and the like to generate the "random" missions it came up with. It broke for much of the same reasons in that it became harder to maintain. In some instances the missions didn't make sense such as the 5th dynasty of the Borg 250k years ago when the Borg didn't even exist at the time or what have you. Perhaps one day they will redo the systems, but that's not now and is irrelevant to the discussion at hand ultimately, so moving on.
This game was never meant to be an exclusively pvp game but meant to have a bit of both. People rejected the pvp side of the game so Cryptic chose to focus on the pve side of the game like any business is going to do. Folks can still make requests for pvp, but if it's only going to benefit 1% of the game vs the 99% that have no interest in said changes, it's going to be on a lower priority if it ever happens at all.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
Ah yes... I remember the 3rd Borg Dynasty...
@rattler2 Wow, i did not realize that you were THAT old...
no, not exclusively PvP, but all you had to gain experience points was PvP, the few nebula exploration missions and the dailies where you had to ambush a convoy and a couple of other minor things. It was a horrible grind and i deleted that alt pretty quickly. IIRC, you really did not see any sort of a KDF storyline for the first year or two, and it happened around the same time they got rid of that horrible first City version 1
Odd idea of fair, you want your opponent's effort and preparations be rewarded equally as your carelessness and neglectance. But guess what, even if everything hits a hard reset and all your desires are fulfilled, your opponents will still be more prepared to fight you, and there are no guarantee that the game will be fair at all, rather those who come prepared or spend some effort to it, will know what to abuse or what is op or what the devs did not forsee in order to defeat you.
Ill agree with you about one thing, the endevour system is becoming ridiculously inflated, and there is nothing new players can do about it, so there you have a point. Maybe if the ratio was 1000 levels max for 5crit chance total max, and you could purchase the first 500 levels for 40 000dill per level to speed up, it will look more reasonable, so a beginner could actually catch up to the rest with good strategy and planning but thanks for pointing this out. The endevour system have become so inflated that at this point its actually damaging.
@sirsitsalot,
Yes i don't see why the pvp, pve and rp can't all have something. It doesn't have to be one vs the other or "us" vs "them". I also thing it will take very little to remove the negative experience from PvP:
- Intel team gives stealth vs non-players only
- evade target lock gives untargetable vs non-players only
- temporal surge gives 2 seconds of untargetable as the tooltip say, rather than the full 10seconds which is in practice.
the consoles are not a problem as long as the above is fixed because they cost console slot.
@darkbladejk,
I can give you evidence, but at this point i feel like you are just at arms vs. me and everything i say is to be countered just for the sake of countering me, in that sense no evidence is possible. At this point is how i feel.
It is not my personal opinion that the current state of stealth stacking is bad, many, including Bret for example say cryptic should just give enough perception to players to counter it, this is where my personal opinion kicks in, i am fine with his idea of giving players more perception to make it reasonable, however the part i don't like is that this will be some kind of a "secret" knowledge, only the pvp players are aware of, so lets say when pvp endevour pops up, the 99% who don't care about learning that perception formula and will have no clue why they weren't able to shoot back and this creates a negative experience. In my opinion, even if you are some kind if a newbie that have no intention of pvp whatsoever and just popup for a fight, at the very least you should be able to shoot back. Being able to shoot back is very important, because if you lost, atleast you know you fought back.
Now let me explain to you what i mean in hard numbers.
First case scenario is intelligence team user, who does not use exitus or lambda cannot be targeted by someone who does not have any additional perception.
In order to see your actual stealth value what you need to do is check your exitus trait, add a zero and this is your value prior to adding exitus, then you subtract the difference between basic cloak and intel team value (4950 - 4680 = 270) in my case i have 5400 cloaking stealth value as you see in the screenshot, this means my intel team value is 5130.
then we add this to the formula: (5000 - 5130) / 50 = -2.6km, this means a pve player or a barbie girl or someone of your friends who doesn't bother to care about perception vs stealth cannot even hope to target a pvp player during the endevour event or some random skirmish.
Next layer of the problem - is you cannot actually target exitus user with a non-intel or non-pilot ship, even if you know what you are doing. In order to be able to target this type of a player you need about 6100 perception so:
(6100 - 5630) / 50 = 9.4km which seems fair. How do you get 1100 perception on a non-intel and non pilot ship ?
Next layer of problem - since everyone uses lambda for detection boost, they also cut the enemy perception by -450, this means that in order to be able to target exitus stacker who uses lambda, you need:
about 6500 perception or (6500 - 6100) / 50 = 8km (seems reasonable)
Please tell me, how do you reasonably stack 1500 additional perception in this game ? Keep in mind every time you select perception source, this is also a big sacrifice to your ship's total capacity.
Next problem - problem untargetable -
So apparently you can get 7 or 8 seconds of untargetable from evade target lock+ 10seconds (yes ten!) from temporal surge and 5 from the picard manuver, for total about 23 seconds of complete untargetable every 1 minute add a 30seconds of shield immunity and 2x placates, because why not ? In practice however they are not used in this order, untargetable is simply used as a reset button, lets say 3 people focus you down, you hit untargetable and heal up. This means you can escape a team focus down 3 times every 1 minute.
What is the problem ? Evade target lock, temporal surge and intel teams.