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    koihimenakamurakoihimenakamura Member Posts: 135 Arc User
    While older gear can be hard to get the new stuff coming out has the same potential as the older stuff generally, it is a matter of shuffling the combinations around to see if the synergies work well. Not obsolescing gear is a good thing, it adds to the variety of viable build possibilities, and the kind of power creep the constant turnover as things become obsolete tends to encourage always causes problems in the long run.

    I disagree categorically, because STO has power creep as it is. Managed, and produced power creep is an expected thing. (Even if FFXIV, which is the example I keep going to, had to nerf some numbers on the release of 7.0)

    Power creep is the result of lack of imagination.

    Any developer that can add 2+2 can make better gear by just adding bigger numbers, that's hardly progress and it's a critical failing in most MMO's. You add more numbers to the players, the game becomes lop sided so you add bigger numbers to the bad guys. It goes on and on, and while the numbers are bigger, nothing actually changes. It's the same game play loops with bigger numbers.

    .... Yes. That's kind of the point. MMOs do that because it's what players want. A well designed loop makes it feel like you're stronger, and fighting stronger enemies as you become more of a hero. Welcome to why numbers get big is the core essence and challenge of those games.

    To wit:

    STO:
    1dfyw2ebs3cx.png

    FFXIV:
    avx1xxprxjzf.png

    What takes more imagination is introduction of gear that offers new build possibilities, and STO has actually done a pretty good job of that. In fact, right now STO has quite the range of build diversity and it came from the introduction of gear and abilities that was more then just the typical brain dead 'bigger numbers.' Yes, in some cases, they have just pushed numbers, but they have also introduced items and abilities that have made science builds, torpedo builds, carrier builds and differing energy types and styles (beams vs cannons) all perfectly viable. Drake Builds still work great, Aux2Bat works, builds using Boimler trait for cooldown, there is a wide variety right now in STO.

    That's.. all the same thing.
    They didn't obsolete gear that was good for DEW builds, they just added new types of gear to open build possibilities. That is actual variety, and that's what creates parity in builds. 'Bigger numbers' does none of that.

    The older gear I refer to that is still viable is still available to everyone. There are very few items in STO that are staples in a build that are no longer available. The fact that old gear is still relevant doesn't in any way prohibit new players from anything. They can still get that gear, it's mostly rep and fleet gear that people have been using forever that's still good and still very accessible. The only thing I can even think of that is somewhat hard to get would be the 'Cold Hearted' trait from a previous event ship, but even that is just a 'nice to have' that only applies to A2B builds. Things like traits from lockbox or event ships have the same cost of acquisition for veteran players as they do for new players.

    I have stated that I like the fact that gear I have earned and upgraded is still relevant. You translated that into me saying I don't want new players to be able to get things I have. I never said or implied anything of the kind, I am not talking about gear that is no longer widely available, that was an inaccurate assumption.

    The progress we have had over the last couple of years took place because developers took the polar opposite of the approach you are advocating for. Variety and options are what further parity and diversification. Obsoleting older items just to re-add them with bigger numbers is an incredibly unimaginative methodology. Just because other games do it, doesn't make it good. Adding new options in parallel with existing options is a win/win for everyone.

    I translated that into the inevitable consequence, but, I agree you likely do not think that previous gear should be rare. But you missed the point about ease of getting it by doing the event or grinding to hell for the lockbox, or the lobi, or the phoenix pack.

    Regardless, I think this is a derail, so I'm going to stop here.


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    seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    westmetals wrote: »
    DOMINO ?

    What about it?

    Clearly falls into the ‘nice to have’ category, but hardly necessary.

    The rest of the dialogue breaks down to either irrelevant facts like the steam charts or a complete lack of understanding of anything previously said.
    Insert witty signature line here.
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    koihimenakamurakoihimenakamura Member Posts: 135 Arc User
    edited March 2022
    westmetals wrote: »
    Note that Steam only tracks users who are actively logging in via Steam. STO has always been available outside of Steam and there are preferential prices for Zen via Arc and the official website, especially during sales.... so Steam's tracking doesn't see everyone, and players who are willing to spend money on the game are actively encouraged toward the non-trackable category. (I am myself an originally-Steam user, but have not used the Steam login to STO in six years.)

    In short: the Steam stats are not necessarily an accurate representation of the real population dynamics. (And BTW the developers have previously said that, of all the stats they have access to, the Steam numbers are the outlier.)

    If you think that is an order of magnitude more players, I have a bridge to sell you.
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    nixie50nixie50 Member Posts: 1,300 Arc User
    What I see is that STO has morphed for the better. for a long time it was escorts online. if you didn't fly an escort, you just "sucked". then BFAW cruisers became a thing. then Torpedo builds. Now, a relatively inexpensive EPG build sci ship is very viable. I don't see STO having OMG if you don't have THIS console you will never get X DPS. the closest thing to that is the disparity between regular gear and fleet gear
    u7acy6aymfw7.gif
    We Need BERETS in the tailor
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    seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    westmetals wrote: »
    westmetals wrote: »
    DOMINO ?

    What about it?

    Clearly falls into the ‘nice to have’ category, but hardly necessary.

    True, but more widely used than Cold Hearted and with similar accessibility.

    Fair point, Domino is a better example then Cold Hearted.

    The thing with Event Items though, is there is always a new one on the horizon. Don't have DOMNIO? well, you can probably get something nearly as good and soon there will be another event console you can slot. Might be a little better, might be a little worse, but you'll be able to hang either way.

    Specifically, I like the fact that the Phasers I crafted years ago are still perfectly viable. The Fleet Gear that I bought and upgraded, the Rep items I bought and upgraded.. all still useful. All easily accessible to new players as well as veterans and you don't have to worry about spending on something just to have it become trash in 6 months. Sure, there is the occasional issue like the old Plasma Exploders that were turned into trash, but for the most part in STO you can feel good upgrading what you have and if something comes along from an event or something that you want to try in your build instead.. cool.

    I know that if I don't go around collecting everything I can get my hands on for the next year, I'll still be able to absolutely melt any of the games content. That is one thing I very much like about STO.
    Insert witty signature line here.
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    blackcat00000013blackcat00000013 Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    westmetals wrote: »
    (Oh and... there's also two other things... you can buy keys with EC on the Exchange.... and you can buy Zen in-game with dilithium... either or both of those could be folded into this to bring the cash cost down even more.)

    You can't buy zen with dilithium... noone is posting it for max 500 dil per zen. They say that cap is too low. I've tested it out for 2 weeks, noone is doing that.

    Buying Zen with dilithium has been shut off by the Game, for a while.
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    seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    westmetals wrote: »
    (Oh and... there's also two other things... you can buy keys with EC on the Exchange.... and you can buy Zen in-game with dilithium... either or both of those could be folded into this to bring the cash cost down even more.)

    You can't buy zen with dilithium... noone is posting it for max 500 dil per zen. They say that cap is too low. I've tested it out for 2 weeks, noone is doing that.

    Buying Zen with dilithium has been shut off by the Game, for a while.

    Incorrect.

    You can still buy Zen with Dilithium, it was never disabled. It just doesn't go through instantly, you have to put in your order and wait.
    Insert witty signature line here.
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    orangenee#2931 orangenee Member Posts: 837 Arc User
    I have 7 toons, only one of which has any 12+ gear across the board.

    The JG vanguard is mostly using the stuff he came with alongside a few C-store ship consoles/traits with mission set gear in places. A little bit of EC on phased polarons.

    All of it is rank 12 and it destroys advanced. I won't bother with elite, that requires at least two brain cells and most puggernauts don't meet that.

    If you WANT better, then get your wallet out. You sure don't need to though, your brain can save a lot of money.

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    krisxr400krisxr400 Member Posts: 119 Arc User
    edited March 2022
    nccmark wrote: »
    750 is a nothing burger sample size. Not surprised you got nothing, would not have been surprised if you won 10 ships. RNGesus is .... well, random.

    Plenty of others have opened tens/hundreds of thousands of boxes in rapid fire.
    Results generally agree with ---
    • appr 1 in 250 chance (0.004%) of winning a ship when opening a lockbox with a master key,
    • appr 1 in 100 (0.010%) when opening a (more expensive) Promotion! pack.



    Just to point out - with the lockboxes. The odds are not cumulative. Each box is randomized. It is entirely possible that the odds ARE .25% but that you just were unlucky - in 750 boxes, if that percentage is correct (and as an aside, it sounds low to me), the odds are that you would have gotten 2 ships. In that small of a sample, getting none (so off by 2) isn't unreasonable, mathematically.

    That said - I prefer to know what I'm paying for, so generally avoid lockboxes. I've opened some over the years when I felt I needed lobi, but I haven't kept track of how many, and I have only gotten one T6 ship myself (which I sold).[/quote]


    Even if I had received one ship, I still would/do feel really stupid for paying that much for a ship. Which is what the op is stating. This game is ridiculously expensive for items/ships you want.

    I'm not arguing either of you two's posts, it really reinforces the op and my post that it is very expensive to acquire certain ship/items. I mean really, at a dollar or more a key (baring the exchange) if you opened 100 boxes isn't that a crazy amount of cash for digital ship? If opening 750 is considered low in the community and not receiving one, that's beyond insanity. And yes I feel a bit insane, stupid, and embarrassed for spending that much money. Wanna know something even stupider? I still "want" some of those ships and items. Crazy... don't mind if i do! -Homer Simpson :)

    Edited for I don't know how to Quote properly, sorry.
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    seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    krisxr400 wrote: »
    I mean really, at a dollar or more a key (baring the exchange) if you opened 100 boxes isn't that a crazy amount of cash for digital ship?

    This will always be a bit of a sticking point as it's purely a matter of opinion and depends on someone's financial capabilities.

    For me, I don't look at it that way, I don't think of myself buying a 'digital ship.' I know it's not an actual item.. one day, hopefully many many years from now, the game will shut down and that 'item' will no longer exist. If you look at it like that, then yeah, even $20 is silly to throw at the game.

    But you're not really buying the item, you're buying the entertainment value that the item brings. You're paying for a recreational activity, not for an actual item. Now, rather you personally get $100 worth of entertainment value from that item.. that's an individual decision. Personally, the last concert I went to cost me $200 USD and it was over in like 3 hours.. so when I think of it that way.. $100 for hours of game play.. maybe not the worst deal. :lol:
    Insert witty signature line here.
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    davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 10,559 Arc User
    edited March 2022
    krisxr400 wrote: »
    I mean really, at a dollar or more a key (baring the exchange) if you opened 100 boxes isn't that a crazy amount of cash for digital ship?

    This will always be a bit of a sticking point as it's purely a matter of opinion and depends on someone's financial capabilities.

    For me, I don't look at it that way, I don't think of myself buying a 'digital ship.' I know it's not an actual item.. one day, hopefully many many years from now, the game will shut down and that 'item' will no longer exist. If you look at it like that, then yeah, even $20 is silly to throw at the game.

    But you're not really buying the item, you're buying the entertainment value that the item brings. You're paying for a recreational activity, not for an actual item. Now, rather you personally get $100 worth of entertainment value from that item.. that's an individual decision. Personally, the last concert I went to cost me $200 USD and it was over in like 3 hours.. so when I think of it that way.. $100 for hours of game play.. maybe not the worst deal. :lol:

    That's how I look at it. I pay for streaming music, streaming video and video rentals, Xbox Game Pass = game rentals. All will evaporate some day leaving me with nothing except memories.

    Physical goods disappear too though, especially electronics. My toaster and kettle both died in the last 2 years. Clothes wear out. Food is eaten and is gone.

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    krisxr400krisxr400 Member Posts: 119 Arc User
    I see your points. Alot of it sounds like justification. I get that. I'm also rather simple I suppose. I've always thought that if you have to justify a choice, than its probably not a good or a wrong choice. As I stated before you can play the game for free, fleet and rep builds are decent. It's the "want" factor, and if you "want" that stuff, it is expensive no matter how you justify it. (zen store really isn't bad other than mudd and anniversay and legendary stuff)

    Oh and I had time during the update, so I checked up on the forums. :)
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    mledelen#6118 mledelen Member Posts: 23 Arc User
    Should I spend 600 dollars, 300 dollars on sale now, for a pack of imaginary stuff for a game that is 12 years old and stale, or a new up to date video card, or a date with a woman, or save it for something tangible in the future? hummm.,..
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    seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    edited March 2022
    Should I spend 600 dollars, 300 dollars on sale now, for a pack of imaginary stuff for a game that is 12 years old and stale, or a new up to date video card, or a date with a woman, or save it for something tangible in the future? hummm.,..

    Those decisions will be based on the amount of entertainment value you will get from the pack, and what percentage of your income is represented by the price of the item. Lets stop pretending this answer is exactly the same for everyone, because it isn't.

    And before anyone says I am just defending my position to buy, I haven't spent a dime on STO in 2 years and that policy hasn't changed.
    Insert witty signature line here.
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    orangenee#2931 orangenee Member Posts: 837 Arc User
    Should I spend 600 dollars, 300 dollars on sale now, for a pack of imaginary stuff for a game that is 12 years old and stale, or a new up to date video card, or a date with a woman, or save it for something tangible in the future? hummm.,..

    Dating is largely a miss and saddles you with more expense more often than not, I'm staying bachelor thanks. 1 swing at marriage, one catastrophic miss.

    Video card, do you really need one?

    Something tangible? Is it a want or need?

    Then factor in 600 bucks is 'back of the sofa' money to some folk. All those options can be done at once for them.

    Which one is worth more to you, get that one.

    Don't like the prices, don't pay them as with other folk here. Where one wallet closes another three open.
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    psymantispsymantis Member Posts: 329 Arc User
    krisxr400 wrote: »
    I mean really, at a dollar or more a key (baring the exchange) if you opened 100 boxes isn't that a crazy amount of cash for digital ship?

    This will always be a bit of a sticking point as it's purely a matter of opinion and depends on someone's financial capabilities.

    For me, I don't look at it that way, I don't think of myself buying a 'digital ship.' I know it's not an actual item.. one day, hopefully many many years from now, the game will shut down and that 'item' will no longer exist. If you look at it like that, then yeah, even $20 is silly to throw at the game.

    But you're not really buying the item, you're buying the entertainment value that the item brings. You're paying for a recreational activity, not for an actual item. Now, rather you personally get $100 worth of entertainment value from that item.. that's an individual decision. Personally, the last concert I went to cost me $200 USD and it was over in like 3 hours.. so when I think of it that way.. $100 for hours of game play.. maybe not the worst deal. :lol:

    That's how I look at it. I pay for streaming music, streaming video and video rentals, Xbox Game Pass = game rentals. All will evaporate some day leaving me with nothing except memories.

    Physical goods disappear too though, especially electronics. My toaster and kettle both died in the last 2 years. Clothes wear out. Food is eaten and is gone.

    "All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain."
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