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Does Cryptic discriminate against non-fleet players?

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  • erdi#1371 erdi Member Posts: 61 Arc User
    westmetals wrote: »
    If you were trying to suggest that this be changed, or report it as a bug, you should have posted in the Feedback or Support areas.

    However, you chose to post in the General Discussion area. That clearly indicates that it is a topic open to discussion.

    You have then failed to understand that your initial question is based on a flawed premise: that "discrimination" applies not only to cases where players (or characters) are penalized for something outside of their control (race, faction, gender, class), but also to cases where the player is in control (like not joining a fleet or not going to a particular location).

    (There is in fact one endeavour that does discriminate - by faction - but you claimed that was not relevant when I mentioned it.)

    You then agreed, when asked, that an endeavour that can only be completed at a specific location, is not discrimination against players who do not want to go there.

    However, this endeavour - like the specific place ones - IS accessible to everyone; you have made a choice that makes you unable to complete it.

    If you do not understand that your choice not to join a fleet, is the same thing as a player refusing to go to the location for a specific place endeavour, then you, sir, are a hypocrite.

    And your repeated claims that your question has not been answered, are not accurate. Simply because you do not like the answers you got, does not mean they did not exist. Our failure to agree with you, does not mean we did not understand the question.

    Not wanting to join a fleet cannot be compared to not wanting to travel a certain distance until reaching a certain point where something can be done that gives points or benefits.

    If I fail to understand the question I have asked, would I post the question? I do not think so.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    edited October 2021
    erdi#1371 wrote: »
    erdi#1371 wrote: »
    erdi#1371 wrote: »
    I would like to note that it is apparently not possible or not wanted that critical questions about certain or mean-spirited or unjustified comments about any kind of discrimination are welcome, each time things are added that have nothing to do with the starting question or comment. And it's starting to feel personal the way some of the responses are. But let's stick to the responses, here we go.

    If you wish to invoke critical thinking, then great.. please do so now. It's been explained to you why this endeavor is not 'discrimination,' by multiple posters, and you have simply ignored the explanation. You asked a question, the entirety of the base of replies have disagreed with you yet you maintain that you're the one that's correct and all others are wrong. It's not 'personal' to disagree with someone, especially when they're wrong.

    Your feeling that this endeavor was somehow created to single you out is not a feeling shared by the majority. Everything that needs to be said has been said and you have convinced no one of your view point. The community by in large, disagrees with you. The most insulting thing is you continuing to make this sound like it's some complex issue that only you understand.

    We understand.. and we don't agree. Maybe it's time to move on?

    So you think I'm being insulting to others because I don't like the answers? Well that's the first time I hear that too. The assumption that only I would understand the problem is ridiculous. If everyone wouldn't add things that don't belong to the question, I wouldn't have to repeat myself so often. SO STOP THE PERSONAL ATTACKS QUIETLY.

    Ok, I can tell from your reply that you either are not reading posts or you just don't understand them. The person talking about it being personal was you.. I was responding to what YOU said. :lol:

    Clearly this is a lost cause. Even when someone addresses your points you are either unable or unwilling to understand them.

    So cool.. keep playing victim and crying 'discrimination' if that makes you feel better..

    But you're ridiculous.

    I'm not playing the crying victim here who feels better in that role. It is a reaction such as yours is still hitting that side and no meaning whatsoever of contribution to the question asked, posting your reaction only has the meaning that you wish for another and that makes you feel better about yourself the way you think another should feel.
    That you say that I would not be able to understand or understand something, then you should explain to me how it is possible that I have a successful business that has already made a profit from the first year and consists of more than ten different catering businesses . If I cannot understand or comprehend something I would not be able to have such a thing. I can also play it personally if you wish and do it with regard to my person but that is not desired let alone allowed, but apparently you can afford it. I read every post even if I have to go to the beginning and start of the question, so don't come up with that rediculous reasoning.

    I am going to go easy on you because it's clear that you're translating your posts which is probably part of the reason they're so difficult to understand. Congratulations on your catering business, I am not sure how that's relevant to the topic, but apparently you're proud of that so I am happy for you.

    Attacking your idea is not the same as attacking you personally. Your idea that Cryptic is being discriminatory is absurd. I'm sure you as a person are perfectly fine but I continue to believe your opinion on this topic is out of the bounds of reason and an over reaction to nothing.
    Insert witty signature line here.
  • kiralynkiralyn Member Posts: 1,576 Arc User
    edited October 2021
    Not joining a Fleet is a personal choice. Which locks you out of certain things.
    Just like not doing Tzeenkethi TFO's is a personal choice. Which locks you out of certain things.
    Or not doing PvP (and Competitive queues).
    Or not playing KDF characters.
    Or... etc, etc, etc.


    I honestly don't see any difference, or see any issue with a "Universal" endeavor being for a form of content that I choose not to participate in.


    I don't see "earn 5k fleet credits" as something "given to fleets". Endeavors in general, are an enticement to get people to try other playstyles or game features that they might not have. Which is why I skip around half of them, because they're for things I don't want to do.

    Which is fine.

    Because it's my choice.
    Many people have had bad experiences with guild/org memberships in other games and maybe they've had bad experiences in a fleet they were once a member of. They know the drama that can and does go on when a fleet goes sideways, for whatever reason, and they just don't want to set themselves up to be exposed to that sort of experience again.

    Just like all the drama/hostility/bad experiences/etc that people may have had doing PUG dungeon runs in previous games. Which might turn them off of doing TFOs. Which show up in the Endeavors a heck of a lot more than Fleet-related ones do.


    (and yeah, I don't join guilds in MMOs. I didn't in this game for years & years. But the fleet-sourced costumes finally got me to look for one, and I found an "antisocial" fleet that has absolutely no drama I've seen in the couple years I've been in it. I've never interacted with anyone from it outside of when I asked to have three alts added as members.)
  • erdi#1371 erdi Member Posts: 61 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    erdi#1371 wrote: »
    It's not about whether or not one joins a fleet, anyone can if they want to (everyone agrees on that, whether or not they had bad experiences in the past with fleet leaders/armada leaders) it's about the fact that non-fleet members cannot participate in a Universal Endeavor that is supposed to be playable by anyone and where it is NOT MADE SURE that it is a fleet endeavor. Jesus christ how many times do I have to put that down, really couldn't sleep with it that's why I'm replying in the middle of the night for me.

    There are no such things as fleet only endeavors. All players are universally able to belong to a fleet whether they start their own or join an existing one. This is not difficult to understand at all. Your premise is false.

    If there are no fleet endeavors why is/was that universal endeavor only accessible to fleet members? So the rationale for being able to do that endeavor is that one is REQUIRED to be in a fleet, while nowhere does it say/is that it is a fleet endeavor and that therefore no pilots are excluded from completing that endeavor.
  • erdi#1371 erdi Member Posts: 61 Arc User
    erdi#1371 wrote: »
    erdi#1371 wrote: »
    erdi#1371 wrote: »
    I would like to note that it is apparently not possible or not wanted that critical questions about certain or mean-spirited or unjustified comments about any kind of discrimination are welcome, each time things are added that have nothing to do with the starting question or comment. And it's starting to feel personal the way some of the responses are. But let's stick to the responses, here we go.

    If you wish to invoke critical thinking, then great.. please do so now. It's been explained to you why this endeavor is not 'discrimination,' by multiple posters, and you have simply ignored the explanation. You asked a question, the entirety of the base of replies have disagreed with you yet you maintain that you're the one that's correct and all others are wrong. It's not 'personal' to disagree with someone, especially when they're wrong.

    Your feeling that this endeavor was somehow created to single you out is not a feeling shared by the majority. Everything that needs to be said has been said and you have convinced no one of your view point. The community by in large, disagrees with you. The most insulting thing is you continuing to make this sound like it's some complex issue that only you understand.

    We understand.. and we don't agree. Maybe it's time to move on?

    So you think I'm being insulting to others because I don't like the answers? Well that's the first time I hear that too. The assumption that only I would understand the problem is ridiculous. If everyone wouldn't add things that don't belong to the question, I wouldn't have to repeat myself so often. SO STOP THE PERSONAL ATTACKS QUIETLY.

    Ok, I can tell from your reply that you either are not reading posts or you just don't understand them. The person talking about it being personal was you.. I was responding to what YOU said. :lol:

    Clearly this is a lost cause. Even when someone addresses your points you are either unable or unwilling to understand them.

    So cool.. keep playing victim and crying 'discrimination' if that makes you feel better..

    But you're ridiculous.

    I'm not playing the crying victim here who feels better in that role. It is a reaction such as yours is still hitting that side and no meaning whatsoever of contribution to the question asked, posting your reaction only has the meaning that you wish for another and that makes you feel better about yourself the way you think another should feel.
    That you say that I would not be able to understand or understand something, then you should explain to me how it is possible that I have a successful business that has already made a profit from the first year and consists of more than ten different catering businesses . If I cannot understand or comprehend something I would not be able to have such a thing. I can also play it personally if you wish and do it with regard to my person but that is not desired let alone allowed, but apparently you can afford it. I read every post even if I have to go to the beginning and start of the question, so don't come up with that rediculous reasoning.

    I am going to go easy on you because it's clear that you're translating your posts which is probably part of the reason they're so difficult to understand. Congratulations on your catering business, I am not sure how that's relevant to the topic, but apparently you're proud of that so I am happy for you.

    Attacking your idea is not the same as attacking you personally. Your idea that Cryptic is being discriminatory is absurd. I'm sure you as a person are perfectly fine but I continue to believe your opinion on this topic is out of the bounds of reason and an over reaction to nothing.

    If attacking the idea, which I haven't posted as such but as a question, is not attacking a person then why put the following "The most insulting thing is you continuing to make this sound like it's some complex issue that only you understand." So what I posted about my case is considered irrelevant to the question? That's true, but this is in response to the personal attack and just for that.
  • erdi#1371 erdi Member Posts: 61 Arc User
    erdi#1371 wrote: »
    westmetals wrote: »
    If you were trying to suggest that this be changed, or report it as a bug, you should have posted in the Feedback or Support areas.

    However, you chose to post in the General Discussion area. That clearly indicates that it is a topic open to discussion.

    You have then failed to understand that your initial question is based on a flawed premise: that "discrimination" applies not only to cases where players (or characters) are penalized for something outside of their control (race, faction, gender, class), but also to cases where the player is in control (like not joining a fleet or not going to a particular location).

    (There is in fact one endeavour that does discriminate - by faction - but you claimed that was not relevant when I mentioned it.)

    You then agreed, when asked, that an endeavour that can only be completed at a specific location, is not discrimination against players who do not want to go there.

    However, this endeavour - like the specific place ones - IS accessible to everyone; you have made a choice that makes you unable to complete it.

    If you do not understand that your choice not to join a fleet, is the same thing as a player refusing to go to the location for a specific place endeavour, then you, sir, are a hypocrite.

    And your repeated claims that your question has not been answered, are not accurate. Simply because you do not like the answers you got, does not mean they did not exist. Our failure to agree with you, does not mean we did not understand the question.

    Not wanting to join a fleet cannot be compared to not wanting to travel a certain distance until reaching a certain point where something can be done that gives points or benefits.

    If I fail to understand the question I have asked, would I post the question? I do not think so.

    it absolutely can mate. either one is a choice. and as stated by another one or two, maybe your choice of wording - discriminate - is not the correct one.

    instead, you could have opted to ask - why are there endeavors, such as 'get 5000 fleet credits,' when not everyone is in a fleet. and then ask that to be changed, or ask if people think it should be changed.

    A satisfactory answer, if one wants to avoid the word discrimination, but basically it means the same thing. Both could have been correctly placed as a question. But yes, it is simply placed as discrimination in the question and apparently there is a rather catty response to that word. But on the form of posting the question, I can go with you.
  • erdi#1371 erdi Member Posts: 61 Arc User
    @sirsitsalot Finally someone who understands the question, thank you.
  • erdi#1371 erdi Member Posts: 61 Arc User
    westmetals wrote: »
    erdi#1371 wrote: »
    @sirsitsalot Finally someone who understands the question, thank you.

    We all understood the question.

    Failing to agree is not failing to understand.

    If everyone understood the question, why wasn't it answered correctly?
  • erdi#1371 erdi Member Posts: 61 Arc User
    erdi#1371 wrote: »
    westmetals wrote: »
    erdi#1371 wrote: »
    @sirsitsalot Finally someone who understands the question, thank you.

    We all understood the question.

    Failing to agree is not failing to understand.

    If everyone understood the question, why wasn't it answered correctly?

    because you didnt ask it correctly.

    Is there finally a satisfactory and correct answer, the attack, from what I understand, starts again.
    I've only read one answer that fully answers the question posed, so do you think that answer is misplaced? I don't think so, this means that the question put down in that way has been read correctly and comprehensibly.
  • erdi#1371 erdi Member Posts: 61 Arc User
    westmetals wrote: »
    erdi#1371 wrote: »
    westmetals wrote: »
    erdi#1371 wrote: »
    @sirsitsalot Finally someone who understands the question, thank you.

    We all understood the question.

    Failing to agree is not failing to understand.

    If everyone understood the question, why wasn't it answered correctly?

    Because your definition of "answered correctly" is that the question is only answered correctly by people who agreed with you. We did not agree with you.

    It appears that you are offended that you were not able to do the endeavour, because you are not in a fleet... and while that is true, the fact that you are not in a fleet is your own choice and is not something unchangeable.

    Therefore, you did it to yourself. You were not being discriminated against.

    The "catty" reaction to the word discrimination, was not because you used it, but because you used it improperly. Discrimination requires that the target is being discriminated against for something that is outside of their own control.

    (I in fact gave an example of an endeavour that IS discriminatory, by faction, but you chose to claim that was not relevant.)

    The "catty" reaction to the word discrimination, was not because you used it, but because you used it improperly. Discrimination requires that the target is being discriminated against for something that is outside of their own control.

    I've used the word "discrimination" because I don't shy away from that word and I'm only too aware of the reactions it can provoke, a word that is all too often avoided (I don't do politics and go can't use that form of culture either, but can't help but use a certain term) and can and may be used as a politically correct word if someone is excluded from certain things in life without his own will. So it is legitimate to use the word when someone is barred from participating in an endeavor that is not classified as a fleet endeavor but actually is.
  • erdi#1371 erdi Member Posts: 61 Arc User
    edited October 2021
    Flaming/trolling redacted. -- WingedHussar
    Post edited by wingedhussar#7584 on
  • kiralynkiralyn Member Posts: 1,576 Arc User
    erdi#1371 wrote: »
    So it is legitimate to use the word when someone is barred from participating in an endeavor that is not classified as a fleet endeavor but actually is.

    It's not classified as a "fleet endeavor", because there is no such thing. There is only "Endeavor".

    The fact that you don't participate in whichever content the Endeavor focuses on (fleet, TFO, ground, space, etc) doesn't change the fact that it's just an Endeavor, and it is possible for everyone to do it, they just choose not to do that content.


    (An Endeavor that said "Complete a TFO with a Legendary ship", for example, would prohibit many people from doing it. Because you can only get a Legendary ship by buying them for big $.)
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    Ok... we're done here people. This is just going in circles. Your question has been answered, with the overwhelming majority disagreeing with you, and pointing out that it is based on a choice made by the player, not malice on the part of Cryptic towards those who choose not to join or make a fleet. Continuing to argue that people don't understand or you have not gotten a sufficient answer is just asking for more of the same, and may even lead to a flame war over who is right. We are not doing that.

    Computer... end thread.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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