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data on dil/zen exchange (PC)

(originally posted in steam forum)

My Zen-purchase order from Saturday night, finally went through overnight on Wednesday night (at roughly the same time I posted it per the exchange history). So roughly a four day backlog, and considering it was at 1.3 million when I posted, that indicates an average daily movement of somewhere around 325,000 Zen.

(Of course, the backlog is now 2.2 mil, so.... at those numbers, a new buy order might take a whole week.)

In hours.... roughly 13,550 / hour processing, but the backlog grew by an average of 9,375 during the same time (total buy orders averaging between 22,000 and 23,000 per hour).

Comments

  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 9,573 Arc User
    Interesting, and this is without any big sales.

    When Black Friday / Thanksgiving / Xmas sales hit the backlog could grow to weeks not days.
  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 9,573 Arc User
    Silly me, thinking we'd have to wait for dilex-killing sales. 35% off bundles, 50% off Mudd's bundles: https://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/11500303-35%-bundle-sale,-50%-mudd's-bundle-sale!

    This might be a trap. Better deals might arrive for Black Friday / Thanksgiving / Xmas / New Year's
  • corinthalascorinthalas Member Posts: 1,579 Arc User
    The zen I've got has already been earmarked for other things (possibly whatever the next mudd bundle ends up being). Maybe, when rainbow-farting unicorns fix the dilex, I'll revise my plans, but for now, I don't use the dilex for anything.
  • westmetalswestmetals Member Posts: 7,565 Arc User
    edited October 2021
    I just thought the data might be interesting, as the cap situation allows us (with simple observation) to have some idea of the actual amounts coming and going.

    In my own case... I have plenty of Zen for my needs... but I converted some to dilithium for the upgrade weekend a couple weeks ago, so figured I would convert some back the other way. :) The amount used in my observed conversion was fairly small.
    Interesting, and this is without any big sales.

    When Black Friday / Thanksgiving / Xmas sales hit the backlog could grow to weeks not days.

    Indeed. In fact, about a week or so prior to my start-date (during/at the end of the upgrade weekend) the backlog was close to zero.

    It's a little thin, data-wise, to draw such a conclusion, but what the numbers look like is that, at a base level, the supply of Zen being sold at cap price is only about 60% of the demand.

    (approximately 13,550/hour in Zen being sold, but the growth of the backlog indicates approximately 22,900/hour in buy orders posted).
    Post edited by westmetals on
  • rascally8abbit#2284 rascally8abbit Member Posts: 33 Arc User
    Well what is odd, is that the Neverwinter Online exchange has been in this "forever" fate for several years. It took me about 2 days to clear 200 zen using dil to get it. I am wondering why this problem has only recently occured. Yes the 25K on many of these grind event is responsible for putting many into too much dil and have gone looking for zen. I still feel this has been allowed as they don't want people to buy zen products with dil so they to find a way to slow it down, same as Neverwinter Of course we all remember missions where you did different things among all the games that I guess with PW. When they took it down they said it needed to be brought up to date and what not, they made on comment about working on it and nothing sense. So this is just another case to close off the flow of in game resource with in store only money purchases
  • westmetalswestmetals Member Posts: 7,565 Arc User
    edited October 2021
    Interesting, and this is without any big sales.

    When Black Friday / Thanksgiving / Xmas sales hit the backlog could grow to weeks not days.
    Well what is odd, is that the Neverwinter Online exchange has been in this "forever" fate for several years. It took me about 2 days to clear 200 zen using dil to get it. I am wondering why this problem has only recently occured. Yes the 25K on many of these grind event is responsible for putting many into too much dil and have gone looking for zen. I still feel this has been allowed as they don't want people to buy zen products with dil so they to find a way to slow it down, same as Neverwinter Of course we all remember missions where you did different things among all the games that I guess with PW. When they took it down they said it needed to be brought up to date and what not, they made on comment about working on it and nothing sense. So this is just another case to close off the flow of in game resource with in store only money purchases

    I'm not familiar with the situation 'over there', but.... here in STO...

    The devs largely stopped adding new ways to spend dilithium about three or four years ago (the last fleet holding, the Fleet Colony, was added in summer 2017 and the most recent update to the Phoenix boxes (and them being made perma-available) (except for the limited-time ship upgrade tokens) was in I believe January 2019).

    Just prior to that taking effect, the dilithium exchange rate was in the high 200s, and had been rising at a fairly consistent rate (approximately 2 per month) for years. (There's a spreadsheet out there, that I've seen, where someone had recorded the daily rate every day since early 2016, I averaged the numbers out to monthly to smooth out any spikes caused by events, and saw this pattern).

    Around the timeframe of the 2018 Winter Event (give or take a couple of months) - which is suspiciously, just about when the fastest fleets could have maxed out their colony - that constant rise in the exchange rate suddenly accelerated to approximately triple its former speed (6-7 per month)... and stayed there.

    That constant rise at that rate, starting from an exchange rate of about 300, could be easily predicted to reach the cap in about thirty months. Which is precisely what happened - we hit it in (if memory serves) June 2021.

    Since then, there's been some variations in the backlog (caused by events and sales) but the exchange rate has only once or twice come off of the cap, and even then only for a couple of hours.

    As mentioned, about 6-10 days prior to the two data points I observed (above), the backlog was very small (almost zero) - at the end of an upgrade event, which would obviously be a spike in demand for dilithium.

    Your theory on "they don't want people to buy zen products with dil" does not necessarily compute.. because the Zen in the exchange still comes from other players.

    My theory is simply that most of the ways to spend dilithium, have some sort of logical limit, and once players reach that limit, one of two things happen (both of them bad for the exchange): if they have been farming dilithium, they shift into trying to use it to buy zen. And if they have been selling zen to get dilithium, they stop doing that (and possibly start spending their zen on zen store items instead, or else stop buying zen). Both of those would affect the supply/demand on the dilex in the same way - without the price cap, the exchange rate would still be rising.

    I ran this experiment because I was curious how much Zen actually passes through the dilex, (It's not possible to do the sort of observation and analysis I did here, unless the exchange rate is capped the entire time, so there isn't really "old data" to compare to.) and how much of a disparity there is between supply and demand. The disparity is a lot bigger than I expected to see (as a percentage of total sales), which might mean that it will be that much more difficult to fix. (I honestly would have guessed the amount of Zen passing through was higher.) Because the only real way to 'fix' this, as I see it, is to introduce a new and desirable spend, so that more zen comes into the dilex. (It's possible that cutting dil earnings might help, too, but I don't think so... the scarcity will not necessarily create additional demand among potential Zen sellers, though it could have some reducing effect on the excessive buyers.)
  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 15,375 Arc User
    edited October 2021
    Silly me, thinking we'd have to wait for dilex-killing sales. 35% off bundles, 50% off Mudd's bundles: https://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/11500303-35%-bundle-sale,-50%-mudd's-bundle-sale!

    This might be a trap. Better deals might arrive for Black Friday / Thanksgiving / Xmas / New Year's

    I do think we need to stop believing that they'll take the Dilex situation seriously. There have been a relentless stream of back-to-back sales and very few attempts to address the Dilex issue, and I'd argue they've disregarded a few opportunities that might have, at the very least, eased the situation a little too.

    And yes, I've heard the excuses about how the sales are scheduled in advance. However, that's a lousy excuse that requires us to believe that their scheduling of sales is some kind of law of nature that can't be altered under any circumstances. No one is asking for them to stop these sales altogether - of course they need to make money. Sadly, there must be middle-ground here somewhere, but it seems to have buried under the queue of high-demand sales.

    The fact is, somewhere within Cryptic is a person (or persons) with the authority to make decisions pertaining to these sales. That person (or persons) allows these sales to go ahead knowing full well that it could not do anything but make the Dilex situation worse. And yes, corporate mouthpieces (who are under contractual obligation to only say good things about the company), such as the CM, might occasionally make passing comment to reassure us that they're aware of the problem and are working on solutions - but I tend to look at what they DO rather than what they say.
  • ussvaliant2#1952 ussvaliant2 Member Posts: 338 Arc User
    I blame Federation President Okeg. He has caused inflation and disruption in the supply chain and only made it worse with a fly or no fly vaccine mandate for that outbreak of the Tarellian plague, causing a shortage of freighter pilots due to half of them refusing to have it.

    [url=https://imgur.com/Mp3E8EH][img]http://i.imgur.com/Mp3E8EH.jpg[/img][/url]

    “If you have a problem figuring out whether you’re having Lag or Rubber-banding,” “then you ain’t playing Star Trek Online.”
  • corinthalascorinthalas Member Posts: 1,579 Arc User
    edited October 2021
    reyan01 wrote: »
    Silly me, thinking we'd have to wait for dilex-killing sales. 35% off bundles, 50% off Mudd's bundles: https://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/11500303-35%-bundle-sale,-50%-mudd's-bundle-sale!

    This might be a trap. Better deals might arrive for Black Friday / Thanksgiving / Xmas / New Year's

    I do think we need to stop believing that they'll take the Dilex situation seriously. There have been a relentless stream of back-to-back sales and very few attempts to address the Dilex issue, and I'd argue they've disregarded a few opportunities that might have, at the very least, eased the situation a little too.

    And yes, I've heard the excuses about how the sales are scheduled in advance. However, that's a lousy excuse that requires us to believe that their scheduling of sales is some kind of law of nature that can't be altered under any circumstances. No one is asking for them to stop these sales altogether - of course they need to make money. Sadly, there must be middle-ground here somewhere, but it seems to have buried under the queue of high-demand sales.

    The fact is, somewhere within Cryptic is a person (or persons) with the authority to make decisions pertaining to these sales. That person (or persons) allows these sales to go ahead knowing full well that it could not do anything but make the Dilex situation worse. And yes, corporate mouthpieces (who are under contractual obligation to only say good things about the company), such as the CM, might occasionally make passing comment to reassure us that they're aware of the problem and are working on solutions - but I tend to look at what they DO rather than what they say.

    Yup. Actions speak louder than words. The *ONE* change they've made that was supposed to help the dilex didn't have anywhere near the impact (read: none whatsoever) they thought it would, which everyone here told them would be the case, but they didn't listen, nor have they reverted it. The issue is consistently one of whoever is controlling the purse strings repeatedly putting all the 'new things' in the c-store instead of selling anything via dilithium. X-upgrade ship tokens? C-store. X-upgrade captain tokens? C-store. We've offered countless suggestions, and the only one they listened to, they also completely bungled so epically it had to be deliberate.

    And when you view the situation this way, it's hard to find any reason to honestly believe they'll ever do much more than the same kind half-a**ed ineffectual 'fixes' in the future.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,754 Arc User
    edited October 2021
    reyan01 wrote: »

    I do think we need to stop believing that they'll take the Dilex situation seriously. There have been a relentless stream of back-to-back sales and very few attempts to address the Dilex issue, and I'd argue they've disregarded a few opportunities that might have, at the very least, eased the situation a little too.

    And yes, I've heard the excuses about how the sales are scheduled in advance. However, that's a lousy excuse that requires us to believe that their scheduling of sales is some kind of law of nature that can't be altered under any circumstances. No one is asking for them to stop these sales altogether - of course they need to make money. Sadly, there must be middle-ground here somewhere, but it seems to have buried under the queue of high-demand sales.

    The fact is, somewhere within Cryptic is a person (or persons) with the authority to make decisions pertaining to these sales. That person (or persons) allows these sales to go ahead knowing full well that it could not do anything but make the Dilex situation worse. And yes, corporate mouthpieces (who are under contractual obligation to only say good things about the company), such as the CM, might occasionally make passing comment to reassure us that they're aware of the problem and are working on solutions - but I tend to look at what they DO rather than what they say.

    Completely agreed.

    There are some that just take Cryptic at their word, sadly for me I have seen too many accounts of Cryptics actions and words being vastly different. Despite what they say, their actions have shown they have little to no interest in actually fixing the Dilithium exchange. At this point, if Cryptic tells me the sky is blue, I am going outside to confirm.

    As for the data, while it's an admittedly small sample size, it's still very interesting and big thanks to @westmetals for posting the information. Very enlightening.
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  • westmetalswestmetals Member Posts: 7,565 Arc User
    edited October 2021
    As for the data, while it's an admittedly small sample size, it's still very interesting and big thanks to @westmetals for posting the information. Very enlightening.

    Welcome!

    As mentioned... I was curious how large the supply and demand really are, and thus the differential between them that would need to be addressed (and therefore how big of a job it would be to fix)... and it turns out to be bigger than I thought. I wasn't quite expecting that the shortfall in Zen supply is close to 40% of the overall demand.
  • crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 3,821 Arc User
    The problem is: The Cryptic Devs don't deal with the game in the same way players do. They don't need to 'buy' anything; and there grasp on what their so called metrics are 'showing' them is skewed as a result.

    Take Thomas Marrone's 'push' to get common Doffs removed as an input to Fleet Projects; and just replaced with requiring Dilithium. <--- As usual =, somehow he believes removing an option (and another type of sink) will help the Dill Exchange issue; but, no in the long term IT WON'T. All it will do is create another Fleet Dil 'project' that will stop being slotted regularly. I hope whomever is making a final decision on this realizes how BAD an idea this is for the game overall (Hint: Removing player options in an attempt to FORCE them to use something they see as 'more valuable for OTHER things' is ALWAAYS bad - especially when it's a sink for other aspects of the game and would have bad knock on effects to other parts of the game/Fleet Credit economy.)

    We ALREADY saw this when they made the daily Endeavor Reroll Tokens buyable with Dil only and no longer randomly earnable. Did players EN MASSE buy (and continue to buy) Reroll tokens with Dil? No. They now either grit their teeth to do the random endeavor they don't really like - or SKIP doing such Endeavor for that day, and hope for one they like on the next day. If anything this hurts the Endeavor system and you have LESS players engaging in possible group content others are queuing for - meaning longer queue wait times, etc. So yeas, in this one change; not only did it end up doing almost nothing for a issue it was put in for as a small fix - it HURT the overall dynamic of overall group content engagement for the game.

    Most players see Dill (for the most part) as 'free Zen'; and they save it (again for the most part) to convert to Zen. Yes, many DO buy Phoenix Packs to upgrade gear on Double Upgrade point weekends for new characters, or to just finally 'finish' upgrading a main; but those weekends are few and far between.

    Cryptic HAS to be will to put up some more things players feel are really 'worth it' FOR DIL ALONE; and not Zen<--- And that will probably NEVER happen because Dil is easily attainable, but Zen pays the actual bills and earns profit. Hell, I'm certain there are probably still some higher ups in their marketing dept. that wishes the Phoenix Packs would be changed from selling for Dil into selling for Zen.
    ^^^
    Until someone at Cryptic sees some real 'loss leader' value in putting some in game items/traits, etc. players really want for Dilithium only, and not Zen, the situation won't change.

    As for the idea of changing Dil costs across the board to some sort of logarithmic cost progression, or that Cryptic System Designer's idea that "some players will just want to dump Dilithium to 'show off' their in game wealth..."
    ^^^
    yes, you'll have a VERY few who might go for either; but overall, again, it just goes to show how OVERALL CLUELESS Cryptic is WRT to how the majority of the 'free to play' players see Dil <--- And that simply as a way to get 'free Zen' to buy a ship they really want from the Zen Store. If Cryptic messes with that to the point it gets astronomical to exchange Dil for Zen in any fashion, the majority of the current playerbase will simply consider it too much of a grind and may start MOVING ON TO other
    MMOs.

    That's what amazes me about certain Management Level Devs on Cryptic's STO team. They seem to think STO is the only MMO out there and players will just 'live with a change' and keep playing. Invested players will put up with quite a bit; but yeah there comes a point where finally even they will get fed up and quit to find something less grindy/more enjoyable <--- And yes, IMO changing the Dil exchange cost to some sort of logarithmic scale where the more you earn, the less it's worth overall, would KILL interest in doing anything in the game for Dil at some point; and again, the idea that you can simply trade X Dil for X Zen (with a top fixed rate, currently 500 Dil <-> 1 Zen) is what keeps players grinding and putting up with the glitches and the bugs.

    TLDR - You make the carrot too costly to get an occasional bit from and PLAYERS WILL LEAVE (in droves).
    ^^^
    And by the time you guys see that in your metrics; it'll be too late for the game to recover.

    So yeah, marketing has in the end got to be willing to take some loss leader and out some items/traits/things players REALLY want in game but sold via Dil only (and not Zen) to 'balance out' the current Dil<-> Zen exchange situation IF they are unhappy with how it sits now. Making Dill effectively worth way less the more you earn is a sure way to KILL player activity in STO overall.
    Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012
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  • tom61stotom61sto Member Posts: 3,402 Arc User
    Solid post crypticarmsman!
    [...]
    Take Thomas Marrone's 'push' to get common Doffs removed as an input to Fleet Projects; and just replaced with requiring Dilithium. <--- As usual =, somehow he believes removing an option (and another type of sink) will help the Dill Exchange issue; but, no in the long term IT WON'T. All it will do is create another Fleet Dil 'project' that will stop being slotted regularly. I hope whomever is making a final decision on this realizes how BAD an idea this is for the game overall (Hint: Removing player options in an attempt to FORCE them to use something they see as 'more valuable for OTHER things' is ALWAAYS bad - especially when it's a sink for other aspects of the game and would have bad knock on effects to other parts of the game/Fleet Credit economy.) [...]

    Worse than that, if that even is effective for fixing the Dil Exchange in the short term, that means those fleets will finish faster and then will no longer need Dil all that much quicker afterwards. It'd just be kicking the can down the road, and end up making the problem worse in the long term, unless they somehow make their magical Dil sink somehow which they haven't had success with yet...
    TLDR - You make the carrot too costly to get an occasional bit from and PLAYERS WILL LEAVE (in droves).
    ^^^
    And by the time you guys see that in your metrics; it'll be too late for the game to recover.

    I worry about this a lot. Blizzard didn't seem to see the writing on the wall for their own issues when it came to WoW, and now there's a decent amount that left for FF14, though over mainly different issues than STO's. What chance does Cryptic have in both noticing and acting on problems before they have something similar happen here? Star Trek is very much their crutch, but that can only take so much weight before it breaks.
  • westmetalswestmetals Member Posts: 7,565 Arc User
    edited October 2021
    Considering how many fleets are maxed out already, I don't think changing the inputs on existing fleet projects, to require more dilithium, is a viable solution at all... because most of the players who are at "I have nothing to spend dil on except buying Zen".... will have already done those projects.

    As I said above, "the only real way to 'fix' this, as I see it, is to introduce a new and desirable spend, so that more zen comes into the dilex." And at the same time, that would also reduce the dilithium coming into the dilex... in both cases because players who currently have exhausted all the existing ones, would suddenly have a new reason to spend dilithium.
  • corinthalascorinthalas Member Posts: 1,579 Arc User
    edited October 2021
    westmetals wrote: »
    Considering how many fleets are maxed out already, I don't think changing the inputs on existing fleet projects, to require more dilithium, is a viable solution at all... because most of the players who are at "I have nothing to spend dil on except buying Zen".... will have already done those projects.

    As I said above, "the only real way to 'fix' this, as I see it, is to introduce a new and desirable spend, so that more zen comes into the dilex." And at the same time, that would also reduce the dilithium coming into the dilex... in both cases because players who currently have exhausted all the existing ones, would suddenly have a new reason to spend dilithium.

    I think the best idea would be to expand on the fleet R&D weekly buffs. That's something they could turn into an 'as much as you want' on-going drain for dilithium rather than a one-and-done drain like most other uses for dilithium. I mean, obviously the performance boosts gained from enhancing the R&D weekly buffs would be on a steep diminishing curve, such that someone who spends 1 million dilithium per week on their fleets weekly buff is not getting a buff that's 100x stronger (or even 10x) than a small fleet that only does the 'basic' weekly buff. But if some whale wants to burn a million dilithium a week to further enhance all their fleet mates (and themselves) for the week, the system would accommodate them. A drain to can resize itself to fit the resources available sort of thing.
  • westmetalswestmetals Member Posts: 7,565 Arc User
    edited October 2021
    westmetals wrote: »
    Considering how many fleets are maxed out already, I don't think changing the inputs on existing fleet projects, to require more dilithium, is a viable solution at all... because most of the players who are at "I have nothing to spend dil on except buying Zen".... will have already done those projects.

    As I said above, "the only real way to 'fix' this, as I see it, is to introduce a new and desirable spend, so that more zen comes into the dilex." And at the same time, that would also reduce the dilithium coming into the dilex... in both cases because players who currently have exhausted all the existing ones, would suddenly have a new reason to spend dilithium.

    I think the best idea would be to expand on the fleet R&D weekly buffs. That's something they could turn into an 'as much as you want' on-going drain for dilithium rather than a one-and-done drain like most other uses for dilithium. I mean, obviously the performance boosts gained from enhancing the R&D weekly buffs would be on a steep diminishing curve, such that someone who spends 1 million dilithium per week on their fleets weekly buff is not getting a buff that's 100x stronger (or even 10x) than a small fleet that only does the 'basic' weekly buff. But if some whale wants to burn a million dilithium a week to further enhance all their fleet mates (and themselves) for the week, the system would accommodate them. A drain to can resize itself to fit the resources available sort of thing.

    Certainly one possibility... but how many fleets do you think will actually do something like that? According to the above numbers, we're talking about a surplus of about 4.7 million dilithium per hour going into the dilex... to soak up your hypothetical "million a week", you would need 780 fleets doing that. (Actually more, because I did not calculate in the existing cost of the existing project that this would be substituted for.)
  • husanakxhusanakx Member Posts: 995 Arc User
    edited October 2021
    All they have to do is a bit of low effort work.

    The easiest fix... would be to take one minor fleet holding every few months and add a Tier 4.
    Update the advanced fleet stuff on offer in them... with Ultra versions that are +1s... and come in MK 10 Blue. (to make sure people have to burn a bit more dil upgrading things)
    Add some Tier 4.... Space/Ground/ship trait unlock or something that is tempting enough to ensure fleets don't skip the holdings.

    No new graphics needed... nothing but some new items with copy bases but bumped states... and some missions added to the fleet.

    Every couple months roll out the next tier 4 bump.
    Start with the oldest first and move through them 5 minor holdings 2-3 months between em could easily stretch that out over a year and half.

    Dill min... Tier 4. Ultra Advanced RCS/armor console.... yep just take the ones that are there and tac on 1.2% crth or 9% crtd. Rep elite warp/sing cores. (take half the rep cores and add a ultra fleet version that can be unlocked assuming you have the rep done and the fleet holding unlocked... save the other half for the spire)

    Embassy... Tier 4. Add more Romulan bridge officers... and crazy idea a Reman for Fed/KDF (which would give people more reason to buy the cross faction cloaking ships for their fed/kdf toons win win win) Ultra treat scaling sci consoles.... add weapon dmg type buffs to them... why not uni consoles are out there for everything anyway take the existing consoles and just add a 8% phaser/disruptor ect buff to em. (again make sure they are blue mk x lol)

    Spire... add the other half of the ultra versions of rep set core... and if cryptic wants bonus points add fleet versions of mission set stuff like a fleet version of the Jem deflector ect. Spire consoles probably don't need a massive buff... but if you want to burn dil..... Add spire dmg consoles with CRTX (crth AND crtd) Who cares about the power creep anymore. Instantly people are upgrading 4-7 consoles per toon.

    I won't go through the rest... but I think you get the idea. Low effort on Cryptics part which is all they will give us at this point. However high rate of dil burn... something new every few months to do for players. Like I said with the embassy even a way to help move some ships that don't really sell. (making a reman ambush extension boff an option at the embassy would sell even if it cost 1m dil)
  • corinthalascorinthalas Member Posts: 1,579 Arc User
    edited October 2021
    westmetals wrote: »
    westmetals wrote: »
    Considering how many fleets are maxed out already, I don't think changing the inputs on existing fleet projects, to require more dilithium, is a viable solution at all... because most of the players who are at "I have nothing to spend dil on except buying Zen".... will have already done those projects.

    As I said above, "the only real way to 'fix' this, as I see it, is to introduce a new and desirable spend, so that more zen comes into the dilex." And at the same time, that would also reduce the dilithium coming into the dilex... in both cases because players who currently have exhausted all the existing ones, would suddenly have a new reason to spend dilithium.

    I think the best idea would be to expand on the fleet R&D weekly buffs. That's something they could turn into an 'as much as you want' on-going drain for dilithium rather than a one-and-done drain like most other uses for dilithium. I mean, obviously the performance boosts gained from enhancing the R&D weekly buffs would be on a steep diminishing curve, such that someone who spends 1 million dilithium per week on their fleets weekly buff is not getting a buff that's 100x stronger (or even 10x) than a small fleet that only does the 'basic' weekly buff. But if some whale wants to burn a million dilithium a week to further enhance all their fleet mates (and themselves) for the week, the system would accommodate them. A drain to can resize itself to fit the resources available sort of thing.

    Certainly one possibility... but how many fleets do you think will actually do something like that? According to the above numbers, we're talking about a surplus of about 4.7 million dilithium per hour going into the dilex... to soak up your hypothetical "million a week", you would need 780 fleets doing that. (Actually more, because I did not calculate in the existing cost of the existing project that this would be substituted for.)

    Hard to say how much would move in what direction, because we have no idea how much of what's going onto the dilex is only going on there for a lack of any other use for it, taking however long it takes to sell (as opposed to the dil going there expressly to buy zen). I mean, the game doesn't have a sink remotely like this. Most dilithium sinks are extremely finite -- you only need so many upgraded items, fleet provisions, etc. An on-going sink that can absorb as much dilithium as players want to throw at it is an entirely new kind of beast. Remember, players were spending millions of dilithium leveling various fleet holdings for years without issues. And that was just to unlock the option of spending more dilithium to buy stuff. So it's not as if there wasn't a willingness to spend many millions of dilithium a week to build up the fleets.

    Obviously, addressing the *demand* side of dilithium is only going to work if it comes with some adjustments to the *supply* side of the equation, too.
  • chastity1337chastity1337 Member Posts: 1,538 Arc User
    Good thread, with some great ideas. This community continues to impress me, even after all these years :)

    I know the idea of interiors has been chewed over ad nauseam and we have been told that we can't have that because each ship would have to be updated in the db individually. But what if they did a poll to see which ships people most wanted interior options for, and then did 2 or 3 per month, with a whopping fee in dil to buy the unlock? There are a few cross-faction ships for which I'd really like to have a full Fed "white light" interior and bridge.

    The other obvious thought is, what if they raised the cap in the Dil Exchange to 550 or 600? I realize that would no nothing to address the lack of demand for Dil, but if Dil was cheaper, might more people buy Phoenix Boxes?

    One minor point, the Special Requisition Pack - 23rd Century tier 6 ship was removed from the T6 Phoenix ship choice thingie quite recently, like in the last few months, and the Ambassador was added. So it's not entirely true that there have been no changes.
  • aftulusaftulus Member Posts: 668 Arc User
    edited October 2021
    I have a feeling half of their development is lagged. If you look at the ideas, I keep seeing stuff I recommended months ago or more. It seems like they are just taking a long time doing stuff. With the graphics/dx11 overhaul we may be seeing small temp solutions while they are working on it. Hopefully we will see bigger changes after that is done. I'm wondering if that will be the case at least.

    I hope they don't change the cap unless there is a big reason to do so. Changing other parts of the game to fully utilize the existing one would be better. Long term ability for it to dynamically change the full length of the exchange rate would be nice. A real economy, or closer to it, would be nice. There is lots of room to make more complex things to allow that on some level. Let alone economies in parts of that game it should exist. Like in different cultures.(ferengie, cardasian, anything not fed.)

    I had a trade concept that went into more depth of the ship and could utilize the idea of using actual limits in the warp core to produce things. We have lack of representation of the base cause of much of how the ships work. There are ways to get that in lore logically like running into a sun or gas clouds and scooping to refil the warp core with certain things. Or buying it depending on where youare. The lack of money in the fed could have been interesting in this game if you put it up against the reality of a universe that does use money. It could have also change the realities of different species as they could come from a place like the klingons where you did need to use money. Basically free upgrades for fed, added with a reality of where those resources come from potentially(sort of like fleet resources now but more in depth to territory) and pay upgrades/ heals for other people. Not sure why klingons get free upgrades/heals for ships as is in the current bare minimum mechanics. You would think that would fit the hardcore play klingons are supposed to be. Unless I'm missing something about their lore.

    Either way, economy mechanics can be used to help fix dil in the long run. Depending on how the game makes them interrelate if the game gained more depth. It's part of the economy as the current game stands at least and matters a little. In the long run what dil and lobi and other things represent could be given more depth to do wonders for the game and ultimately the dil/zen problem. It could dynamically change how it works.

    Might have an exploration/realistic game world that comes down to doing more than grinding dailies.
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 3,900 Arc User
    If they raised the cap then most likely all that would happen would be that it would cap out again in a few hours, just like it did when they raised the cap in Neverwinter. Like the statistics the OP figured out show, the pressure against the cap is too high for it to stabilize before hitting the cap again.
  • westmetalswestmetals Member Posts: 7,565 Arc User
    edited October 2021
    One minor point, the Special Requisition Pack - 23rd Century tier 6 ship was removed from the T6 Phoenix ship choice thingie quite recently, like in the last few months, and the Ambassador was added. So it's not entirely true that there have been no changes.

    I suggest you go back and check your sources - neither of those has ever been in Phoenix. I stand by my statement that the only recent change has been the temporary-during-events addition of the ship upgrade tokens.
    If they raised the cap then most likely all that would happen would be that it would cap out again in a few hours, just like it did when they raised the cap in Neverwinter. Like the statistics the OP figured out show, the pressure against the cap is too high for it to stabilize before hitting the cap again.

    Yes, I think so too. I just did the math: if we assume that the price going up would have no impact on the amount of Zen offered for sale... the amount of dilithium currently being offered would correspond to an exchange rate of just below 850.
  • corinthalascorinthalas Member Posts: 1,579 Arc User
    edited October 2021
    westmetals wrote: »
    One minor point, the Special Requisition Pack - 23rd Century tier 6 ship was removed from the T6 Phoenix ship choice thingie quite recently, like in the last few months, and the Ambassador was added. So it's not entirely true that there have been no changes.

    I suggest you go back and check your sources - neither of those has ever been in Phoenix. I stand by my statement that the only recent change has been the temporary-during-events addition of the ship upgrade tokens.

    Yeah, I read that and scratched my head. I've been aware of what's in the prize pack for a long time. Except for the ship upgrade token, prize options haven't changed in a long time. It has only ever had old event ships from many years ago.
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