And that has a bearing on the IP issue how? As idiotic as it sounds, legally CBS still has to pay money and license Commando Cody from (or anything else from Republic) Melange Pictures to use is because they pretend to be independent of each other, which is the entire point of those holding companies. In essence Viacom buys, sells, and leases millions (maybe billions) of dollars of stuff to and from itself every year because of the legal fiction those holding companies were designed for.
It has bearing in that it seems very, very, very unlikely there were royalties paid (or risk of legal suit if there were not) over some costume pieces and props from an old serial. This sounds more like Paramount used some props, set dressing and costumes from some old crates they had collecting dust in their warehouse that fit the theme they were after. This happens a lot in Hollywood. Take a look at places like the Warner Bros corporate archives and such and all the old stuff they have there. Universal Studios has their own. Safe bet Paramount does as well. They will pull old costumes and props and things to re-use all the time on current projects.
If you want to believe there is some kind of IP issue with using the stuff, that is fine as it is your prerogative. However, legalities seem unlikely since they look to have re-purposed and used a good portion of the stuff to begin with. As tight as Trek budgets were, I doubt they would spend the funds on lawyers and fees to get permission to use ancient stuff.
Those crates are usually marked with the IP holder's name, and they do negotiate though it often is done with just a few phone calls and a memo or two, and cash does not always change hands, often they just make a deal to add them in to the list of "in cooperation with" companies in the credits.
But that is in TV/movie productions, not licensing IP assets to an outside entity like a game company, which is a totally different animal. And STO is made by Cryptic, which is in turn owned by PWE, a Chinese company, not CBSViacom so they do not have the same-umbrella corporate family courtesies that sometimes exist.
And those courtesies do not always exist even in the film/TV industry either, just take a look at the inter-division and inter-company bickering, backbiting, and stonewalling that wrecked the 2002-2003 Birds of Prey TV series before they even started filming the pilot, despite all parties being under the same umbrella at the highest tier.
somtaawkhar wrote: »
The Star Trek Novels aren't canon. CBS still mandated that they have to follow screen canon.
untrue. the vesta class strictly comes from novels, as does Captain Mackenzie Calhoun. I am sure if I really wanted to, I could find other instances of novel stuff in the game
There is another problem with Captain Proton. As it turns out, he is actually Commando Cody with a few of the bulkier props left off and those goggles substituting for the silly mask Cody wore "in public" when not using the space helmet, from a 1950s serial made by Republic Pictures. While Paramount TV was able to use it (probably with a limited license from the IP holder) and some of the old props CBS may not have the rights to turn around and license it to STO since the IP for all that old Republic Pictures stuff belongs to Melange Pictures, LLC.
And here with the robot (in fact, the first time it is shown it is the original one from that serial with a few temporary additions, though later Paramount built another one, probably so they would not need to keep borrowing it):
And here with the mask and hat when he was not in his "space gear":
except Paramount owns the republic brands and archives, over several deals, culminating in a total buyout between 1998 and 2000
Borg are not a good example at all, a number of the Borg shown in Trek are "wearing" starfleet uniforms which are also that "Borg Armor" at the same time because when their nanites infuse whatever the victim was wearing it turns it that dull black color and starts growing plates. Depending on how you look at it they could be considered to be wearing all kinds of uniforms and clothing, or they could be running around naked because the nanites turn it into a part of them.
While this is not a screenshot per se it does show that phenomenon (at around the three minute mark):
Borg are not a good example at all, a number of the Borg shown in Trek are "wearing" starfleet uniforms which are also that "Borg Armor" at the same time because when their nanites infuse whatever the victim was wearing it turns it that dull black color and starts growing plates. Depending on how you look at it they could be considered to be wearing all kinds of uniforms and clothing, or they could be running around naked because the nanites turn it into a part of them.
You are actually proving the opposite of what you think you are here.
That is because the issue itself is only an issue because of flawed logic and has drifted into the realm of the absurd. It is often the case in appeal to ignorance/burden of proof fallacies like this particular question has devolved into that arguments for one side also serve just as well for the other side. Endlessly going back and forth with what boils down to "you cannot prove it is so" on one side and "you cannot prove it is NOT so" on the other never goes anywhere so I was attempting to break the loop.
That is because the issue itself is only an issue because of flawed logic and has drifted into the realm of the absurd. It is often the case in appeal to ignorance/burden of proof fallacies like this particular question has devolved into that arguments for one side also serve just as well for the other side. Endlessly going back and forth with what boils down to "you cannot prove it is so" on one side and "you cannot prove it is NOT so" on the other never goes anywhere so I was attempting to break the loop.
Apparently I was unsuccessful.
Asking for someone to provide proof to back up an absurd claim they are making is not a fallacy.
I understand the argument. Borg wearing Borg armor and Breen wearing Cryosuits and the like are normal - for them. It is not normal for Federation Captains in Starfleet serving on Starfleet ships to be wearing their clothing, yet there is zero restriction for that here. Starfleet Captains wearing winter clothing or dance club outfits or dresses or spacesuits or kilts or whatever else while on duty is not normal in canon, however we can wear all that full time here in game without issue if we want to. I can be out of uniform 100% of the time and there are no restrictions here in game.
I get it. Captain Proton is a costume just like these are costumes and are not worn under normal conditions.
My question still remains - so what? At least to me, there is no distinction between our Captains wanting to wear the Odyssey uniform or club wear or a Captain Proton costume full time. If people want it and are willing to spend money on it, that is ok by me. Let them wear whatever they like. But do not cry "IP restrictions" when there really are none and offer ludicrous reasons as to why there is any difference.
Just having a (color version) Captain Proton outfit and raygun, and even a "Satan's Robot" combat or non-combat pet is not a big deal, true (assuming there is no IP issue or that it does not annoy someone at CBS like the idea of jumping through the window at Quark's bar did), but it is not the entire original issue, just a small spur of it.
A few odd pieces, like the outfit, weapon, and pet could be done with a few new meshes and possibly even reuse some textures (or even whole materials) from something else. That is a far cry from the original issue of the vast number of new resources that would be required to do a full Captain Proton episode or arc.
Personally I would not mind a scenario like I mentioned before where for some reason the player party has to use the costume and whatnot but the setting itself was something built from normal STO resources (like the dozens of other boarding party actions where the interior is always made of the same stuff the "current" version of Drozanna is made of) as long as the story itself was well crafted.
Of course, what I would really like to see would be more TOS era scenarios in the mix, especially if they contain the 23rd century ESD, sector map, and whatnot (which would make sense for temporal agents). And that already has the assets in place to do.
I tell you guys...I spent AGES coming up with Captain Proton themed bits and pieces. I posted the links to the threads that I daren't not revive, but take a look and I'd love to see what you think of my ideas. It would be SUCH fun!
Comments
Those crates are usually marked with the IP holder's name, and they do negotiate though it often is done with just a few phone calls and a memo or two, and cash does not always change hands, often they just make a deal to add them in to the list of "in cooperation with" companies in the credits.
But that is in TV/movie productions, not licensing IP assets to an outside entity like a game company, which is a totally different animal. And STO is made by Cryptic, which is in turn owned by PWE, a Chinese company, not CBSViacom so they do not have the same-umbrella corporate family courtesies that sometimes exist.
And those courtesies do not always exist even in the film/TV industry either, just take a look at the inter-division and inter-company bickering, backbiting, and stonewalling that wrecked the 2002-2003 Birds of Prey TV series before they even started filming the pilot, despite all parties being under the same umbrella at the highest tier.
somtaawkhar wrote: »
The Star Trek Novels aren't canon. CBS still mandated that they have to follow screen canon.
untrue. the vesta class strictly comes from novels, as does Captain Mackenzie Calhoun. I am sure if I really wanted to, I could find other instances of novel stuff in the game
except Paramount owns the republic brands and archives, over several deals, culminating in a total buyout between 1998 and 2000
While this is not a screenshot per se it does show that phenomenon (at around the three minute mark):
That is because the issue itself is only an issue because of flawed logic and has drifted into the realm of the absurd. It is often the case in appeal to ignorance/burden of proof fallacies like this particular question has devolved into that arguments for one side also serve just as well for the other side. Endlessly going back and forth with what boils down to "you cannot prove it is so" on one side and "you cannot prove it is NOT so" on the other never goes anywhere so I was attempting to break the loop.
Apparently I was unsuccessful.
Just having a (color version) Captain Proton outfit and raygun, and even a "Satan's Robot" combat or non-combat pet is not a big deal, true (assuming there is no IP issue or that it does not annoy someone at CBS like the idea of jumping through the window at Quark's bar did), but it is not the entire original issue, just a small spur of it.
A few odd pieces, like the outfit, weapon, and pet could be done with a few new meshes and possibly even reuse some textures (or even whole materials) from something else. That is a far cry from the original issue of the vast number of new resources that would be required to do a full Captain Proton episode or arc.
Personally I would not mind a scenario like I mentioned before where for some reason the player party has to use the costume and whatnot but the setting itself was something built from normal STO resources (like the dozens of other boarding party actions where the interior is always made of the same stuff the "current" version of Drozanna is made of) as long as the story itself was well crafted.
Of course, what I would really like to see would be more TOS era scenarios in the mix, especially if they contain the 23rd century ESD, sector map, and whatnot (which would make sense for temporal agents). And that already has the assets in place to do.