/sigh. You're doing that thing again where you try to takeover a thread by "filibustering". Please stop and let other people express their opinion, even if you disagree with it.
To be clear, it's fine to have a discussion. What's not fine is for one person to try to dominate it.
/sigh. You're doing that thing again where you try to shut down any criticism of your "arguments" by diverting from the topic at hand, and telling people to stop pointing out when your wrong.
You're pretty confused, because you aren't even responding to "my arguments". You were responding to someone else.
Anyway, let's try this: to everyone else reading. If you:
A: think it's wrong for one person to dominate a conversation
and
B: see anyone doing that (intentionally or not)
then
C: please do NOT engage with their posts
Please feel free to share your opinions and engage with others, but please do not try to dominate the conversation.
Again, if you see anyone doing that please do NOT engage with their posts. We can't control people like that, but we can whether we engage with them (please don't).
@rattler2 Maybe you want to step in before this thread degenerates too, as countless others before have?
Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
@rattler2 Maybe you want to step in before this thread degenerates too, as countless others before have?
Yes, @rattler2 please do. And when you do arrive, please don't make it out like there are "2 sides" that need chill out either. I promise you, I'm completely cool!
But after taking the time to copy all of those posts over here, what I don't want to see is the thread "taken over" by someone who thinks it's their duty to dissect every post they disagree with. It's just not a good look.
As far as procedural-generated content goes, this game HAD stuff like that in the past for exploration: Genesis. For each of the exploration clusters, an unknown system would be generated for you to do something in, such as kill enemies in space/ on ground, Scan 5 things in space, Scan/interact with stuff on ground and kill, or even good transportation to planets.
When genesis assembled the encounter, it was essentially choosing the scenario, picking a pre-determined group of NPC enemies to fight for each cluster, and choosing a map for the encounter. The issue with it though was that not every map was properly set for ground NPCs, so you had bugs where enemy groups would be in buildings, making the encounter incompletable. You also got stuff that made no sense, such as the Borg and their third dynasty.
There's really no way for them to make procedural generated story that would be anywhere as good as what they could produce. The most I see it being done is for patrol sakes where X enemy is at Y system and you have to go drive them away.
To clarify one point: the "genesis" system was not what the players actually experienced in game. It was what the devs used to create the missions. The mission wasn't randomly generated in game when we were loading it, it was randomly generated by the tool the devs used to create it, before it went in game. And the reason for all the bugs is because they simply didn't have time to properly test all of the missions before the game launched. They were in a mad scramble just to get the stuff in the game.
To put it another way, the "genesis" tool was like hitting the "random" button in the character editor. It threw a bunch of random stuff together for a mission, but then they actually had to save that mission and put it in game. Again though, they simply didn't have time to playtest all of those cluster missions before launch (and never cared enough to go back and do it because it was just filler content anyway and they were busy fixing actually important episodes and systems).
To put it another way, the "genesis" tool was like hitting the "random" button in the character editor. It threw a bunch of random stuff together for a mission, but then they actually had to save that mission and put it in game. Again though, they simply didn't have time to playtest all of those cluster missions before launch (and never cared enough to go back and do it because it was just filler content anyway and they were busy fixing actually important episodes and systems).
This.
When I talk about procedural-generated content, I mean for example, launching a Borg Alert and instead of having the exact same scenery, the exact same spawns, the exact same boss, etc., you can get a cluster of Borg cubes and assimilated alien ships in orbit of a planet and when you destroy them, a Borg Diamond shows up instead of a Unimatrix with regen probes.
Then, when you launch it again, this time you have AI allies and you fight in an asteroid field, filled with space materials you can farm and the boss is made of 3 tactical cubes.
And so on.
It's the same mission, it gives you the same main reward, but it plays a bit differently for more variety.
Typical nonsense from the typically nonsensical.
[...]
Its almost like when you don't selectively remove facts what he says isn't as awful as you try to make it out to be.
[...]
What's not fine is for people to habitually lie, and misrepresent things, so they can push conspiracy theories and Doomer ideology.
(see, I can do it to. It just makes you look like an immature child)
[...]
What an utterly selfish and self centered mindset.
Still going with the unnecessary, petty personal, hyperbolic attacks and derail threads? This is just disappointing as it always jeopardizes threads because people will tend to reply to this accordingly.
The OP has posted pretty much word fro word what Tacofangs posted in this very forum several years ago (right after bajor -Hathon was released IIRC. folks ton't know all the different teams that go into making a game.
@rattler2 Maybe you want to step in before this thread degenerates too, as countless others before have?
Yes, @rattler2 please do. And when you do arrive, please don't make it out like there are "2 sides" that need chill out either. I promise you, I'm completely cool!
But after taking the time to copy all of those posts over here, what I don't want to see is the thread "taken over" by someone who thinks it's their duty to dissect every post they disagree with. It's just not a good look.
In all seriousness, I didn't ask rattler to intervene to stomp on anyone's feet, but I'm tired to see thread after thread derailed. A forum is a place where people go to discuss and exchange thoughts and opinions, not to see the usual suspect come in to steamroll everyone that dares to have a different opinion.
Back on topic, I agree with pretty much everything @saurializard pointed out. It's there for everyone to see and that's what irks me the most: I don't want to know everything that's going on behind the scene, but when they come to us - the like, two times a year they deem their playerbase worth of attention, that is - the least they could do is say something that does not contradict itself and/or what has been the reality of the game (or the reality of the entire world, as far as 2020 and this first half of 2021 is concerned) since forever.
People talked about SWTOR and while it's true that this game does not possess the same budget - it never did, no one is questioning that - Star Trek offer the same amount of potential to create new and interesting storylines.
What we get, instead, are less and less episodes, some of which are guilty of very bad retcons as far as the in-game lore goes... and for what? To keep the game in line with what's on screen at the moment? I could get behind that, if it wasn't a total lie - i.e., the Elachi being "reformed" because they're originally from the mycelial realm and they've been "corrupted".
It makes sense that they'd want to stay on top of the new series. It's a sound and good business decision, and I think we can all understand that. But new content is coming way more slowly than it did in the past... the question is: why?
Yes, they need to sell stuff to keep the game a float, but that has always been the case.
Yes, episode making takes way more time than ship making, but that has always been the case.
Yet, as @elijahmre rightly pointed out, this trend of less and less episodes is relatively new and it doesn't seem to really have any reasonable explantion.
Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,596Community Moderator
edited May 2021
You who have summoned me... I have come...
Anyways...
I would like to ask everyone to keep it civil. I'll notify darkblade as well to help keep an eye on this thread if I have to, but everyone chill out. While I haven't read every post in this thread... someone went to the trouble of transcribing some posts from the STO Reddit over here to the forums. That is not cause to dissect for hidden meanings or speculations of intent of malice or whatever. So please keep any tin foil hats put away and have a civil discussion on the topic at hand.
I would like to ask everyone to keep it civil. I'll notify darkblade as well to help keep an eye on this thread if I have to, but everyone chill out. While I haven't read every post in this thread... someone went to the trouble of transcribing some posts from the STO Reddit over here to the forums. That is not cause to dissect for hidden meanings or speculations of intent of malice or whatever. So please keep any tin foil hats put away and have a civil discussion on the topic at hand.
If you are going to do randomization you should be doing randomization of the same basic enemy strength, so that you are always getting the same relative experience, and so the rewards are always tuned properly. Like they do in the "The Ninth Rule" patrol, where you get the same overall composition of enemy ships from a range of roughly equally powerful enemy types. That however only works in limited situations, as it doesn't really make sense for enemy factions to be so easily swapped out like that in the vast majority of scenarios(part of the reason the Genesis system flopped)
But just so you understand, this really isn't an "everyone chill out" situation at all. It's not about heated tempers at all.
The issue is simply that no one person should be trying to dominate a conversation. And when they do try, they need to be told to stop.
But that needs to be said by you guys (the mods), not us regular joes
Was using a blanket response because I haven't read the whole thread and wanted to be visible in hopes of cooling things off while I DO get a sense of what's going on.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,596Community Moderator
Ok... after going through things...
@somtaawkhar could you please back off a bit? You're starting to get a bit aggressive, which gets some aggression in return, and starts an escalation chain.
That's one thing I love with the other "MMO" I'm playing besides STO is that missions, outside of some quests have a tileset, which means the layout always changes and there are bonuses around that makes it worth doing more than just the main objective. You may also get a rare statue to collect to get a load of a specific currency, you can scan enemies to complete a codex and get info on their locations, stats and drops, you may get stronger enemies appearing depending on your progress in the main story and each "class" plays completely differently and since you level up by maxing out the rank of a gear, you have a lot of reasons to go back to specific missions, outside of completing a daily or progressing in an endeavor.
It's something I think STO is missing a lot with its current focus on events requiring you to replay the same thing again and again as it'd help break the monotony.
Constantly accusing the devs of lying about everything is the definition of unnecessary, petty personal, hyperbolic, attacks, and attempts to derail conversation in threads.
I never accused devs of lying. The higher-ups, definitely, in a "interpreting data the way they want" way, but that's not limited to STO, since I outright hate empty PR speech. And please stop with the basic "No you!".
after your kind have had so many of thier threads locked they can't seem to grasp why they keep getting locked.
... How am I even supposed to respond to this language, outside of considering grabbing a dog whistle?
To put it another way, the "genesis" tool was like hitting the "random" button in the character editor. It threw a bunch of random stuff together for a mission, but then they actually had to save that mission and put it in game. Again though, they simply didn't have time to playtest all of those cluster missions before launch (and never cared enough to go back and do it because it was just filler content anyway and they were busy fixing actually important episodes and systems).
This.
When I talk about procedural-generated content, I mean for example, launching a Borg Alert and instead of having the exact same scenery, the exact same spawns, the exact same boss, etc., you can get a cluster of Borg cubes and assimilated alien ships in orbit of a planet and when you destroy them, a Borg Diamond shows up instead of a Unimatrix with regen probes.
Then, when you launch it again, this time you have AI allies and you fight in an asteroid field, filled with space materials you can farm and the boss is made of 3 tactical cubes.
And so on.
It's the same mission, it gives you the same main reward, but it plays a bit differently for more variety.
Yeah, that would be cool. But AFAIK (about this stuff) it would still require someone to actually make each of those mission variants. So it might be 'random' which variant you get each time, but the variants themselves aren't something the game just throws together itself; they have to be pre-made by a real person beforehand.
But yes, it would be nice to not have every Borg Alert be the exact same darn thing every time
Why do you wish he didn't have to say it? It's his job to say it, and frankly, it's about time he finally did that job. His comments help people understand, they help us put ourselves in their shoes and for once he did that.. he gave us something to work with. Crazy conspiracy theories are born in the dark my friend, they come when information doesn't flow and people are left to their imaginations to fill in the blanks. A lot of hostility toward Cryptic comes from the fact that they won't share anything with us, they won't tell us things like this so that we can empathize with the struggle on the other side.
This is the first time in a while that Kael has done what he should be doing.. communicating so we can understand. You can't empathize with someone, anyone, if they won't talk to you. I was happy to see him contribute all that, it's the most I have seen him say.. well.. ever.
As another user already pointed out, I say that because it's almost always the same song and dance that he's had to repeat a thousand times over. He tells people how things work, he tells as much as he can short of breaking NDA, perhaps even telling some folks what they want to hear, but it's never enough for some folks. Inevitably there's always "that one group" that always accuses him of lying or not doing his job. They try to perpetuate this notion of a grand conspiracy that Cryptic hates the very playerbase that keeps their lights on and hates it when any of us have fun, and are always out to make it a more miserable experience had by all.
To borrow from what another user has already said, it's the same song and dance that's gone on for the last 30 years or more now with game development. These companies tell people about their processes and as much as they can short of breaking NDA, but it's never good enough for some people. If the company doesn't mention their one pet item they're after, be it a bug fix, an item/ship, or what have you, it's always that the company is lazy and won't do their jobs. It's always that the company isn't doing enough and they must hate the playerbase all because the company isn't catering to them specifically. It's never that there's legitimate reasons a company may not mention something or do something, that the company is working on (insert item here) and just can't say it yet, or even that said item legitimately would not do well in game, no it's the evil company not giving the innocent player exactly what they want. They've told people things plenty of times and continue to tell people things, but far too many simply don't want to listen.
The most dangerous thing about conspiracies is that there is often times a small nugget of truth in them that's been distorted or twisted to be the basis of the theory. Conspiracy theories can indeed be born in the dark, but that's generally to conceal the truth that has been twisted so folks can't see it for what it is. I appreciate a good conspiracy theory as much as the next person, but true conspiracies are rare things that only happen from time to time. Often times conspiracy theories are developed because folks don't like the reality of certain things, don't have all the facts, or are simply talking out of their aft shuttlebays because they're not getting their way or what have you. They can't accept that their pet item simply isn't as popular as they think it would be, or are tired of waiting and have made up their conspiracy theory as to why it hasn't happened or won't happen to justify their later temper tantrums. Cryptic could flat out show a timelapse of them developing a ship or other thing in game from scratch and there would be certain people who would STILL accuse them of being lazy and dragging their feet.
If ways to speed up the processes can be found that don't sacrifice quality can be found, or ways to improve the processes and game overall can be developed, I'm sure the devs would have to hear it. If said processes or improvements work then it's a great thing for all involved. However I've found more often than not, far too many simply don't know what they're talking about and grossly underestimate what is involved with game development, don't care how much of an extra workload it would be to get their pet item or similar. Or the best ones are when a person doesn't think their idea all the way through to see they're grasping at the low hanging fruit of something, and the rest of their idea is little more than polished bat guano. Yet no matter how much Kael or anyone else tells these people, they never listen and they have to repeat themselves a billion times over.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
To put it another way, the "genesis" tool was like hitting the "random" button in the character editor. It threw a bunch of random stuff together for a mission, but then they actually had to save that mission and put it in game. Again though, they simply didn't have time to playtest all of those cluster missions before launch (and never cared enough to go back and do it because it was just filler content anyway and they were busy fixing actually important episodes and systems).
This.
When I talk about procedural-generated content, I mean for example, launching a Borg Alert and instead of having the exact same scenery, the exact same spawns, the exact same boss, etc., you can get a cluster of Borg cubes and assimilated alien ships in orbit of a planet and when you destroy them, a Borg Diamond shows up instead of a Unimatrix with regen probes.
Then, when you launch it again, this time you have AI allies and you fight in an asteroid field, filled with space materials you can farm and the boss is made of 3 tactical cubes.
And so on.
It's the same mission, it gives you the same main reward, but it plays a bit differently for more variety.
Yeah, that would be cool. But AFAIK (about this stuff) it would still require someone to actually make each of those mission variants. So it might be 'random' which variant you get each time, but the variants themselves aren't something the game just throws together itself; they have to be pre-made by a real person beforehand.
But yes, it would be nice to not have every Borg Alert be the exact same darn thing every time
Oh, I'm unfortunately aware it's unlikely it could even happen in the engine, even if Argala and the Ninth Rule were a welcome little step (except when Hirogen and their subnucleonic beam spam show up. XD), but if it is possible, I believe it'll help alleviate the grind by offering some variety, even if they're not truly random and just from a pool of a few specific encounters.
Why do you wish he didn't have to say it? It's his job to say it, and frankly, it's about time he finally did that job. His comments help people understand, they help us put ourselves in their shoes and for once he did that.. he gave us something to work with. Crazy conspiracy theories are born in the dark my friend, they come when information doesn't flow and people are left to their imaginations to fill in the blanks. A lot of hostility toward Cryptic comes from the fact that they won't share anything with us, they won't tell us things like this so that we can empathize with the struggle on the other side.
This is the first time in a while that Kael has done what he should be doing.. communicating so we can understand. You can't empathize with someone, anyone, if they won't talk to you. I was happy to see him contribute all that, it's the most I have seen him say.. well.. ever.
As another user already pointed out, I say that because it's almost always the same song and dance that he's had to repeat a thousand times over.
Any time you see one of these in depth dev comments/explanations, you see 2 very different types of responses:
1: people who are thanking them for actually explaining it and going into detail
2: people who don't believe them/think they're lying/etc
Group #1 almost always outnumbers Group #2 if you actually count the number of people (not comments, because sometimes the same people are posting over and over).
So you know what? Quit wasting your time worrying about Group #2. You aren't going to change them. Just be glad Group #1 exists.
And because Group #1 exists, that is why Kael (and other CMs) should continue to say these kinds of things from time to time. It's a good thing.
Since we're talking about everyone having the right to opinions here.
the only thing that bothered me on this thread was people calling in the moderators as if they are their personal army. Mods are meant to be neutral and impartial, regardless if you are personal friends with the posters, and there is clearly favoritism going on in these forums. And that's been clear for a while. If mods need to single someone out, that should be done privately, and not in a thread. I mean that's a good way to create a hostile environment right there.
Other than that, there was nothing wrong with any of the posts here. the problem is that there are people here who don't like each other and like to create these stupid cliques and yeah. And frankly, if people can't handle assertive, unapologetic posts or posters, then maybe you're too sensitive to handle open forums. (Please leave your annoyed responses in my PO BOX)
Also since because this is an open forum, dissecting things is literally part of how discourse works. If you don't want your posts analyzed, don't post them. Telling someone not to "dominate the conversation" which doesn't really apply when people aren't actually using their voices to speak to each other, is literally the opposite of "wanting to hear everyone's opinion". You can't really advocate for freedom of opinion and then try to cherry pick which opinions you want to hear more. Not on a forum like this where you can't block people. And trying to use the mods like your personal attack dogs is kinda, well, sad. And the mods should know better. but again, there's no impartiality here.
On topic:
A lot of good information from the reddit. I wish they would do more info dumps like that. also I think this little nugget...
"Keep in mind that internet posts like forums and Reddit typically account for something like 2% of the player base: Comments that you see online are not a representative sample. "
was probably one of the more important things to be said. because especially here on these forums, people think they're more important than they are, and its good to force some humility on here. Other wise, good info on how game development works. Thanks for posting OP.
Telling someone not to "dominate the conversation" which doesn't really apply when people aren't actually using their voices to speak to each other, is literally the opposite of "wanting to hear everyone's opinion".
Let me clarify the issue for you.
Imagine "hypothetical thread" about "hypothetical topic". Imagine 12 people reply to this thread each giving their opinion on the topic. Now imagine 1 single person replies to every one of those people, picking apart every point they said. Yes, that 1 person is absolutely trying to dominate the conversation, and it is completely off-putting to anyone else reading that might be interested in joining in the conversation.
Now, clearly the hypothetical mentioned above is an extreme example. And I'm not, I repeat not, saying anyone did that exact thing in this thread. But there are definitely people who trend toward that type of behavior on these forums, and there are many threads where one single person writes post after post after post disagreeing with nearly everyone else.
Do I want to hear "everyone's" opinion? Yes, absolutely. Do I want to hear one single person's opinion over and over and over again? Hell no. And you know what? As long as it is happening I do think people need to call it out as not cool and not conducive to having a legitimate conversation.
Any time you see one of these in depth dev comments/explanations, you see 2 very different types of responses:
1: people who are thanking them for actually explaining it and going into detail
2: people who don't believe them/think they're lying/etc
Group #1 almost always outnumbers Group #2 if you actually count the number of people (not comments, because sometimes the same people are posting over and over).
So you know what? Quit wasting your time worrying about Group #2. You aren't going to change them. Just be glad Group #1 exists.
And because Group #1 exists, that is why Kael (and other CMs) should continue to say these kinds of things from time to time. It's a good thing.
You're correct that group 2 will always exist. Unfortunately those of the loudest screaming people which generally results in me having to step in as a mod. I would also assert that in today's day and age, folks can find out what goes on behind the scenes if they want to do so. While I'm glad the group 1 folks are willing to change their minds, it's also not right that Kael and others should have to repeat themselves a million times over as easy as information is to get to in this age. I'm glad Kael put out what he did, but still maintain he shouldn't have had to.
Since we're talking about everyone having the right to opinions here.
the only thing that bothered me on this thread was people calling in the moderators as if they are their personal army. Mods are meant to be neutral and impartial, regardless if you are personal friends with the posters, and there is clearly favoritism going on in these forums. And that's been clear for a while. If mods need to single someone out, that should be done privately, and not in a thread. I mean that's a good way to create a hostile environment right there.
Other than that, there was nothing wrong with any of the posts here. the problem is that there are people here who don't like each other and like to create these stupid cliques and yeah. And frankly, if people can't handle assertive, unapologetic posts or posters, then maybe you're too sensitive to handle open forums. (Please leave your annoyed responses in my PO BOX)
Also since because this is an open forum, dissecting things is literally part of how discourse works. If you don't want your posts analyzed, don't post them. Telling someone not to "dominate the conversation" which doesn't really apply when people aren't actually using their voices to speak to each other, is literally the opposite of "wanting to hear everyone's opinion". You can't really advocate for freedom of opinion and then try to cherry pick which opinions you want to hear more. Not on a forum like this where you can't block people. And trying to use the mods like your personal attack dogs is kinda, well, sad. And the mods should know better. but again, there's no impartiality here.
On topic:
A lot of good information from the reddit. I wish they would do more info dumps like that. also I think this little nugget...
"Keep in mind that internet posts like forums and Reddit typically account for something like 2% of the player base: Comments that you see online are not a representative sample. "
was probably one of the more important things to be said. because especially here on these forums, people think they're more important than they are, and its good to force some humility on here. Other wise, good info on how game development works. Thanks for posting OP.
Folks are free to tag myself or my cohorts if they feel something is going off the rails or may potentially go off the rails. If action is needed it will be taken, and if no action is needed then nothing will happen. Should an official warning need to be given the relevant parties will receive said warning in their inbox. Otherwise we will do as we must in enforcing the rules here. If folks feel they were unfairly moderated they are free to appeal to CM Ambassador Kael who will have the final word on it. Someone tagging us doesn't mean they are using us as their "attack dogs" but doing what they are supposed to do in alerting to potential problems they've seen. I would rather someone tag me and it be nothing than to let a full on nuclear guano storm go off.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
Telling someone not to "dominate the conversation" which doesn't really apply when people aren't actually using their voices to speak to each other, is literally the opposite of "wanting to hear everyone's opinion".
Let me clarify the issue for you.
Imagine "hypothetical thread" about "hypothetical topic". Imagine 12 people reply to this thread each giving their opinion on the topic. Now imagine 1 single person replies to every one of those people, picking apart every point they said. Yes, that 1 person is absolutely trying to dominate the conversation, and it is completely off-putting to anyone else reading that might be interested in joining in the conversation.
Now, clearly the hypothetical mentioned above is an extreme example. And I'm not, I repeat not, saying anyone did that exact thing in this thread. But there are definitely people who trend toward that type of behavior on these forums, and there are many threads where one single person writes post after post after post disagreeing with nearly everyone else.
Do I want to hear "everyone's" opinion? Yes, absolutely. Do I want to hear one single person's opinion over and over and over again? Hell no. And you know what? As long as it is happening I do think people need to call it out as not cool and not conducive to having a legitimate conversation.
I feel the need to say something here since my post kind of started it. Yes, I had some negative feedback about how things have been done, I stand by all of it, but I was also happy to see them actually addressing the issue. Anytime that Cryptic has taken the time to actually respond, I for one have changed my tune immediately.. why? because I want to encourage the behavior. Many others have followed suit, I try and endeavor to not be negative toward Kael or Cryptic staff on this board when they attempt to engage.. why? because attacking them when they finally try to comply with the wishes of the players is not the way to encourage them to continue to do so. Yes, there will always be those that can never be satisfied, those that are going to be hostile and angry no matter what.. that always exists but that is a minority of people and others can't modify their behavior to account for these people. Again, while I have my issues with how Cryptic generally handles things, their transparency in this case was appreciated as was their feedback, and it's something I believe should be responded to in a fair and responsible fashion to encourage future communication going forward.
As for the other part, you need to understand that certain people are not worth engaging with. The poster you refer to posts for one reason and that's to get a reaction which you provide. I am baffled that people continue to pointlessly engage and interact with this poster. They have an obvious agenda, they are adamant and unreasonable in that agenda, and will not be swayed under any conditions. Why engage with that? With respect, you bring this on yourself.. stop doing it.
As another user already pointed out, I say that because it's almost always the same song and dance that he's had to repeat a thousand times over. He tells people how things work, he tells as much as he can short of breaking NDA, perhaps even telling some folks what they want to hear, but it's never enough for some folks. Inevitably there's always "that one group" that always accuses him of lying or not doing his job. They try to perpetuate this notion of a grand conspiracy that Cryptic hates the very playerbase that keeps their lights on and hates it when any of us have fun, and are always out to make it a more miserable experience had by all.
This statement implies that Cryptic was once open and forthcoming and was shut down by people that responded negatively despite their best effort. That would be revisionist history at best and an outright fabrication at worst.
These companies tell people about their processes and as much as they can short of breaking NDA, but it's never good enough for some people. If the company doesn't mention their one pet item they're after, be it a bug fix, an item/ship, or what have you, it's always that the company is lazy and won't do their jobs. It's always that the company isn't doing enough and they must hate the playerbase all because the company isn't catering to them specifically. It's never that there's legitimate reasons a company may not mention something or do something, that the company is working on (insert item here) and just can't say it yet, or even that said item legitimately would not do well in game, no it's the evil company not giving the innocent player exactly what they want. They've told people things plenty of times and continue to tell people things, but far too many simply don't want to listen.
Accurate and fair. These people exist in every player base.. always have always will. You don't shut down on everyone else though just because these people exist. Nothing you do will appease them anyway, you can be open or tight lipped and either way that will be shifted to their perception. What you don't do is shut down on everyone else because these people exist, that's not the proper way to handle it and sadly that has largely been Cryptic's response thus far. Now it seems they have opted to engage, again.. behavior that should be encouraged. No, some will not go along and will remain hostile, sadly I see no way to ever remedy that.
I can act only for myself and speaking as one that is often vocal against how they do things on a day to day basis, I will gladly continue to revise my behavior should their approach change. It's not like I want to be 'right,' I don't want them to be some slimy evil group conspiring in a dark corner.. that doesn't benefit anyone. Once again, I think that Kael's replies have helped to see things from their perspective and his responses were greatly appreciated. If I disagree with with was said, I will reply as such, but will refrain from attacking anything but the issue being discussed. That is how further communication is encouraged.
Since the forum won't let me quote you @thegrandnagus1 , i'll just respond independently:
Yes, but see as an open forum, people are allowed to respond to whatever they want. If that means they want to respond to everyone else's post, then they are allowed to do so. And until the forum rules explicitly state that someone can't do that, you just need to accept it. People are allowed to disagree. Even if that means disagreeing with everyone else in that thread.
1. You seem to be upset that you cannot dictate how someone is allowed to respond on the forums, or with what frequency. And given the power, you clearly would, so thankfully you don't have that power.
2. You clearly want people to control their tone to be in a way you personally find acceptable, which is just not your place. That's for the mods to do, who should clearly be more discerning between "aggressive" and "assertive" because there is a difference mods. something is not "aggressive" just because people said it aggressively in their own heads.
3. You seem to want people's posts/opinions to go unchallenged. That is not how open discussion or freedom of speech work, or the world frankly. Discussions doesn't mean "I get to say what I want and no one can respond if its not in line with what I'm thinking or feeling."
4. You don't have to like someone picking apart points, but frankly that's just too bad. That's not something you can control. And is again, not against the forum's rules. And if it was, then that is not conducive to open conversation.
5. it is cool actually. if people can't keep up with the argument and defend their points, then its a weak argument to begin with.
6. You know what I don't see called out? The fact there is definitely a collection of blue names on these forums, who get preferential treatment from the moderators. Because I see these blue names CONSTANTLY going into other people's threads and doing the EXACT thing you are complaining about here. Or even ganging up on individual posters in their threads, essentially ripping those threads apart. And reporting/flagging does nothing because of this special treatment. I know because I've literally tried doing it and nothing happens.
7. You know what else I don't see called out? The mob mentality from blue names who seem to be under the delusion that just because they have a blue name, their opinion on these forums are more important or carry more weight than the rest of us. Spoiler: they don't. And THAT, that is also quite off putting to people on these forums as well.
8. Or how about the fact that there is an environment here where people create threads where apparently opinions = facts. Which is not the case. And some people challenge that. which is good, it should be challenged. And sometimes that's will result in multiple posts. The take away? Check yourself. Stop trying to pass off your feelings as empirical truths, then maybe people won't feel the need to constantly dissect your posts.
9. Also literally listen to yourself, you are literally complaining that people keep responding to posts...on a forum...do you hear how ridiculous that sounds?
What you seem to want is a much stricter forum policy on speech and posting. And THAT is what is not conducive to legitimate conversation my dude, that is what should get called out. It doesn't matter if you don't want to hear one person's opinion on everything. Too bad. This is an open forum, if you don't want that, then start your own forum. Hell maybe even start a discord group to discuss things with certain people where other people can't reply. That way you have your echo chamber/safe space.
Otherwise you have no right telling someone how they can't or shouldn't be responding to posts. As long as they are staying within the forum rules, and last time I checked, picking apart/analyzing/ responding to posts ISN'T against the forum rules, then you need to just practice some radical acceptance.
Also you know, ignoring people is a thing you DO have control over. Maybe try that instead. Or even, and I know this is going to be a radical idea for most of you, but interpersonal communication. Maybe if you know how this person's usually responds, but you want to start a thread, you can personally message them and be like "hey i want to start this thread, but I know it might tick you off, could you maybe just stay way?"
Now they might still do it, but you can't control. But that would be how most adults would communicate. And that's the other issue, there is just an astounding lack of adult communication here. Though honestly, some people need to just pull their head out of their own butts and be grown ups. But that seems to be beyond the capacity for posters AND moderators here.
There I said my piece. Please feel free to dissect my post, even though according to your own logic, that would make you the largest hypocrite on this forum. Spoiler: it doesn't because we're on a forum, you're allowed to do that. Enjoy that
This statement implies that Cryptic was once open and forthcoming and was shut down by people that responded negatively despite their best effort. That would be revisionist history at best and an outright fabrication at worst.
While they don't always respond to every individual post or question, when they do respond they're generally as forthcoming as they can be short of breaking NDA. Some Cryptic team members are more chatty than others but you'll get that with any team. We can debate how often they comment on things and how effective it is, but that's not what I was referring to there. I was referring to those who ignore the fact that Cryptic does in fact routinely respond to things and does answer questions within reason. They may not respond as often as people would like, and they may not often like the answer that Cryptic gives but that doesn't negate the fact that Cryptic often does put a fair amount of info out there. Too many adopt the stance that if they didn't see it, or it wasn't what they wanted, that it's somehow Cryptic's fault or Cryptic isn't doing enough or similar. I can't tell you the number of times I've seen that happen where they go over something on stream or in a blog, it gets talked about here on the forums by some of the usual crew who are typically the first to cover it, but STILL some of these people miss it or act like nothing happened, then want to blame Cryptic for them getting caught unprepared.
Accurate and fair. These people exist in every player base.. always have always will. You don't shut down on everyone else though just because these people exist. Nothing you do will appease them anyway, you can be open or tight lipped and either way that will be shifted to their perception. What you don't do is shut down on everyone else because these people exist, that's not the proper way to handle it and sadly that has largely been Cryptic's response thus far. Now it seems they have opted to engage, again.. behavior that should be encouraged. No, some will not go along and will remain hostile, sadly I see no way to ever remedy that.
I can act only for myself and speaking as one that is often vocal against how they do things on a day to day basis, I will gladly continue to revise my behavior should their approach change. It's not like I want to be 'right,' I don't want them to be some slimy evil group conspiring in a dark corner.. that doesn't benefit anyone. Once again, I think that Kael's replies have helped to see things from their perspective and his responses were greatly appreciated. If I disagree with with was said, I will reply as such, but will refrain from attacking anything but the issue being discussed. That is how further communication is encouraged.
This is where the human factor is definitely a thing. If someone thinks they're going to get screamed at no matter what they do, what exactly is their motivation to engage with the other person(s)? If someone is going to be a tool no matter what I do, I have no motivation to engage with those kinds of people anymore than I have to. Why is anyone going to go out of their way to interact with people that are going to be ungrateful or full on tools no matter what they do? Whether folks think they're being a tool or not is irrelevant to that point, as it's a matter of how the people they want to interact with them perceive them that matters in that instance. This is why I harp on keeping discussions civil when I am forced to step in as a mod. Folks can convey their frustrations without being complete donkeys about it. Sadly its often the very loud vocal minority that often ruins it for everyone else.
Folks also need to understand that although Cryptic may wish they could give us a play by play of what's going on behind the scenes, that's not always possible or practical. I can't tell you how many times I've seen Kael say on stream he can't talk about certain bits of upcoming content but folks keep asking him anyways. Dude would love to tell us, but often can't. Simply because they're silent doesn't mean they're doing nothing. It often means they can't talk about it yet. However that's often not good enough for certain people and they keep pushing the envelope and end up ruining it for others. The only way to remedy this kind of situation fully is to change human nature, which none of us have the power to do.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
This is all good and well, except they have explicitly stated more than once that they will not answer to negative feedback.
Not to insults or uncivil discussions, mind you, but to "negative feedback", because they like to feel good about themselves and what they do. Which is completely understandable, if it wasn't for the fact that if you only answer to "positive feedback"... you aren't answering to feedback at all, but to compliments. And that is an entirely different thing.
Now, same as @seaofsorrows, I'm one of those people that is not shy when it comes to calling them out when they do something bad and I haven't always maintened the most civil conversation, but to place the blame solely on one side is, in my opinion, unfair.
Without pinging him directly again, I'm gonna quote him this time:
This statement implies that Cryptic was once open and forthcoming and was shut down by people that responded negatively despite their best effort. That would be revisionist history at best and an outright fabrication at worst.
This is part of the matter and it's a vicious cicle that will continue until someone breaks it. They were never truly forthcoming to begin with - and I'm not talking about stuff they can't talk about because of NDAs and what have you, but even about bugs and glitches, for example, which are unfortunately part of every game in existence - but what little they would tell us stopped the moment a very vocal, but very small nonetheless, minority started harping on them.
That in turn made people even more angry, and influenced even those that have always been civil and patient, because when you ask - politely, I might add... I won't take into account rants and vents and insults - and all you receive is silence or, at best, dismissive answers things starts to get heated.
Communication is a two-way street, and while I don't intend to ask them to engage with the most unruly parts of the playerbase, I do expect them to communicate with the vast majority of people that are, despite what many may think, open minded and civil when it comes to having a discussion.
What irks me about all of this is that these forums have been pretty much abandoned in favour of Reddit because of their "hostile environment", but the subReddit isn't any less hostile.
So, on top of having communication trickle down once every blue moon, we have it on a platform where many don't go because they: a) aren't aware of it or b) feels that the official forums (and maybe twitter) should be where those communications takes place.
Human factor is... a factor (pun not intended), of course. But it's not a questione of anyone "going out of their way" to interact with anyone else. It's a question of having a CM that engages with the community regardless of the disrespect of a few people, because "the needs of the many outweights the needs of the few... or the one".
As I said above, it's a cycle that must be broken, but it needs both parts for that: we can argue all day about how people need to stop harping on them whenever they communicate something, but ultimately if the communication stops almost as soon as it has begun because of a few uncivil TRIBBLEs, then the cycle will continue on exactly as it is and we'll never go anywhere.
Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
Personally I don't think us Console Players are treated like second class citizens, we have free give aways like those Zhat Vash Pistols and WoK uniforms, plus we have beta testers in the form of PC Players, what more can you ask for?
Comments
/sigh. You're doing that thing again where you try to takeover a thread by "filibustering". Please stop and let other people express their opinion, even if you disagree with it.
To be clear, it's fine to have a discussion. What's not fine is for one person to try to dominate it.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
You're pretty confused, because you aren't even responding to "my arguments". You were responding to someone else.
Anyway, let's try this: to everyone else reading. If you:
A: think it's wrong for one person to dominate a conversation
and
B: see anyone doing that (intentionally or not)
then
C: please do NOT engage with their posts
Please feel free to share your opinions and engage with others, but please do not try to dominate the conversation.
Again, if you see anyone doing that please do NOT engage with their posts. We can't control people like that, but we can whether we engage with them (please don't).
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
Yes, @rattler2 please do. And when you do arrive, please don't make it out like there are "2 sides" that need chill out either. I promise you, I'm completely cool!
But after taking the time to copy all of those posts over here, what I don't want to see is the thread "taken over" by someone who thinks it's their duty to dissect every post they disagree with. It's just not a good look.
Please, @rattler2 save us! You're our only hope
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
To clarify one point: the "genesis" system was not what the players actually experienced in game. It was what the devs used to create the missions. The mission wasn't randomly generated in game when we were loading it, it was randomly generated by the tool the devs used to create it, before it went in game. And the reason for all the bugs is because they simply didn't have time to properly test all of the missions before the game launched. They were in a mad scramble just to get the stuff in the game.
To put it another way, the "genesis" tool was like hitting the "random" button in the character editor. It threw a bunch of random stuff together for a mission, but then they actually had to save that mission and put it in game. Again though, they simply didn't have time to playtest all of those cluster missions before launch (and never cared enough to go back and do it because it was just filler content anyway and they were busy fixing actually important episodes and systems).
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
When I talk about procedural-generated content, I mean for example, launching a Borg Alert and instead of having the exact same scenery, the exact same spawns, the exact same boss, etc., you can get a cluster of Borg cubes and assimilated alien ships in orbit of a planet and when you destroy them, a Borg Diamond shows up instead of a Unimatrix with regen probes.
Then, when you launch it again, this time you have AI allies and you fight in an asteroid field, filled with space materials you can farm and the boss is made of 3 tactical cubes.
And so on.
It's the same mission, it gives you the same main reward, but it plays a bit differently for more variety.
Still going with the unnecessary, petty personal, hyperbolic attacks and derail threads? This is just disappointing as it always jeopardizes threads because people will tend to reply to this accordingly.
*shocked gasp* Wrong franchise! How dare you?!
In all seriousness, I didn't ask rattler to intervene to stomp on anyone's feet, but I'm tired to see thread after thread derailed. A forum is a place where people go to discuss and exchange thoughts and opinions, not to see the usual suspect come in to steamroll everyone that dares to have a different opinion.
Back on topic, I agree with pretty much everything @saurializard pointed out. It's there for everyone to see and that's what irks me the most: I don't want to know everything that's going on behind the scene, but when they come to us - the like, two times a year they deem their playerbase worth of attention, that is - the least they could do is say something that does not contradict itself and/or what has been the reality of the game (or the reality of the entire world, as far as 2020 and this first half of 2021 is concerned) since forever.
People talked about SWTOR and while it's true that this game does not possess the same budget - it never did, no one is questioning that - Star Trek offer the same amount of potential to create new and interesting storylines.
What we get, instead, are less and less episodes, some of which are guilty of very bad retcons as far as the in-game lore goes... and for what? To keep the game in line with what's on screen at the moment? I could get behind that, if it wasn't a total lie - i.e., the Elachi being "reformed" because they're originally from the mycelial realm and they've been "corrupted".
It makes sense that they'd want to stay on top of the new series. It's a sound and good business decision, and I think we can all understand that. But new content is coming way more slowly than it did in the past... the question is: why?
Yes, they need to sell stuff to keep the game a float, but that has always been the case.
Yes, episode making takes way more time than ship making, but that has always been the case.
Yet, as @elijahmre rightly pointed out, this trend of less and less episodes is relatively new and it doesn't seem to really have any reasonable explantion.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
Anyways...
I would like to ask everyone to keep it civil. I'll notify darkblade as well to help keep an eye on this thread if I have to, but everyone chill out. While I haven't read every post in this thread... someone went to the trouble of transcribing some posts from the STO Reddit over here to the forums. That is not cause to dissect for hidden meanings or speculations of intent of malice or whatever. So please keep any tin foil hats put away and have a civil discussion on the topic at hand.
Thanks for stopping in @rattler2!
But just so you understand, this really isn't an "everyone chill out" situation at all. It's not about heated tempers at all.
The issue is simply that no one person should be trying to dominate a conversation. And when they do try, they need to be told to stop.
But that needs to be said by you guys (the mods), not us regular joes
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
*cough*Third Borg Dynasty*cough*
Was using a blanket response because I haven't read the whole thread and wanted to be visible in hopes of cooling things off while I DO get a sense of what's going on.
@somtaawkhar could you please back off a bit? You're starting to get a bit aggressive, which gets some aggression in return, and starts an escalation chain.
It's something I think STO is missing a lot with its current focus on events requiring you to replay the same thing again and again as it'd help break the monotony.
I never accused devs of lying. The higher-ups, definitely, in a "interpreting data the way they want" way, but that's not limited to STO, since I outright hate empty PR speech. And please stop with the basic "No you!".
... How am I even supposed to respond to this language, outside of considering grabbing a dog whistle?
Yeah, that would be cool. But AFAIK (about this stuff) it would still require someone to actually make each of those mission variants. So it might be 'random' which variant you get each time, but the variants themselves aren't something the game just throws together itself; they have to be pre-made by a real person beforehand.
But yes, it would be nice to not have every Borg Alert be the exact same darn thing every time
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
As another user already pointed out, I say that because it's almost always the same song and dance that he's had to repeat a thousand times over. He tells people how things work, he tells as much as he can short of breaking NDA, perhaps even telling some folks what they want to hear, but it's never enough for some folks. Inevitably there's always "that one group" that always accuses him of lying or not doing his job. They try to perpetuate this notion of a grand conspiracy that Cryptic hates the very playerbase that keeps their lights on and hates it when any of us have fun, and are always out to make it a more miserable experience had by all.
To borrow from what another user has already said, it's the same song and dance that's gone on for the last 30 years or more now with game development. These companies tell people about their processes and as much as they can short of breaking NDA, but it's never good enough for some people. If the company doesn't mention their one pet item they're after, be it a bug fix, an item/ship, or what have you, it's always that the company is lazy and won't do their jobs. It's always that the company isn't doing enough and they must hate the playerbase all because the company isn't catering to them specifically. It's never that there's legitimate reasons a company may not mention something or do something, that the company is working on (insert item here) and just can't say it yet, or even that said item legitimately would not do well in game, no it's the evil company not giving the innocent player exactly what they want. They've told people things plenty of times and continue to tell people things, but far too many simply don't want to listen.
The most dangerous thing about conspiracies is that there is often times a small nugget of truth in them that's been distorted or twisted to be the basis of the theory. Conspiracy theories can indeed be born in the dark, but that's generally to conceal the truth that has been twisted so folks can't see it for what it is. I appreciate a good conspiracy theory as much as the next person, but true conspiracies are rare things that only happen from time to time. Often times conspiracy theories are developed because folks don't like the reality of certain things, don't have all the facts, or are simply talking out of their aft shuttlebays because they're not getting their way or what have you. They can't accept that their pet item simply isn't as popular as they think it would be, or are tired of waiting and have made up their conspiracy theory as to why it hasn't happened or won't happen to justify their later temper tantrums. Cryptic could flat out show a timelapse of them developing a ship or other thing in game from scratch and there would be certain people who would STILL accuse them of being lazy and dragging their feet.
If ways to speed up the processes can be found that don't sacrifice quality can be found, or ways to improve the processes and game overall can be developed, I'm sure the devs would have to hear it. If said processes or improvements work then it's a great thing for all involved. However I've found more often than not, far too many simply don't know what they're talking about and grossly underestimate what is involved with game development, don't care how much of an extra workload it would be to get their pet item or similar. Or the best ones are when a person doesn't think their idea all the way through to see they're grasping at the low hanging fruit of something, and the rest of their idea is little more than polished bat guano. Yet no matter how much Kael or anyone else tells these people, they never listen and they have to repeat themselves a billion times over.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
Any time you see one of these in depth dev comments/explanations, you see 2 very different types of responses:
1: people who are thanking them for actually explaining it and going into detail
2: people who don't believe them/think they're lying/etc
Group #1 almost always outnumbers Group #2 if you actually count the number of people (not comments, because sometimes the same people are posting over and over).
So you know what? Quit wasting your time worrying about Group #2. You aren't going to change them. Just be glad Group #1 exists.
And because Group #1 exists, that is why Kael (and other CMs) should continue to say these kinds of things from time to time. It's a good thing.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
the only thing that bothered me on this thread was people calling in the moderators as if they are their personal army. Mods are meant to be neutral and impartial, regardless if you are personal friends with the posters, and there is clearly favoritism going on in these forums. And that's been clear for a while. If mods need to single someone out, that should be done privately, and not in a thread. I mean that's a good way to create a hostile environment right there.
Other than that, there was nothing wrong with any of the posts here. the problem is that there are people here who don't like each other and like to create these stupid cliques and yeah. And frankly, if people can't handle assertive, unapologetic posts or posters, then maybe you're too sensitive to handle open forums. (Please leave your annoyed responses in my PO BOX)
Also since because this is an open forum, dissecting things is literally part of how discourse works. If you don't want your posts analyzed, don't post them. Telling someone not to "dominate the conversation" which doesn't really apply when people aren't actually using their voices to speak to each other, is literally the opposite of "wanting to hear everyone's opinion". You can't really advocate for freedom of opinion and then try to cherry pick which opinions you want to hear more. Not on a forum like this where you can't block people. And trying to use the mods like your personal attack dogs is kinda, well, sad. And the mods should know better. but again, there's no impartiality here.
On topic:
A lot of good information from the reddit. I wish they would do more info dumps like that. also I think this little nugget...
"Keep in mind that internet posts like forums and Reddit typically account for something like 2% of the player base: Comments that you see online are not a representative sample. "
was probably one of the more important things to be said. because especially here on these forums, people think they're more important than they are, and its good to force some humility on here. Other wise, good info on how game development works. Thanks for posting OP.
Let me clarify the issue for you.
Imagine "hypothetical thread" about "hypothetical topic". Imagine 12 people reply to this thread each giving their opinion on the topic. Now imagine 1 single person replies to every one of those people, picking apart every point they said. Yes, that 1 person is absolutely trying to dominate the conversation, and it is completely off-putting to anyone else reading that might be interested in joining in the conversation.
Now, clearly the hypothetical mentioned above is an extreme example. And I'm not, I repeat not, saying anyone did that exact thing in this thread. But there are definitely people who trend toward that type of behavior on these forums, and there are many threads where one single person writes post after post after post disagreeing with nearly everyone else.
Do I want to hear "everyone's" opinion? Yes, absolutely. Do I want to hear one single person's opinion over and over and over again? Hell no. And you know what? As long as it is happening I do think people need to call it out as not cool and not conducive to having a legitimate conversation.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
You're correct that group 2 will always exist. Unfortunately those of the loudest screaming people which generally results in me having to step in as a mod. I would also assert that in today's day and age, folks can find out what goes on behind the scenes if they want to do so. While I'm glad the group 1 folks are willing to change their minds, it's also not right that Kael and others should have to repeat themselves a million times over as easy as information is to get to in this age. I'm glad Kael put out what he did, but still maintain he shouldn't have had to.
Folks are free to tag myself or my cohorts if they feel something is going off the rails or may potentially go off the rails. If action is needed it will be taken, and if no action is needed then nothing will happen. Should an official warning need to be given the relevant parties will receive said warning in their inbox. Otherwise we will do as we must in enforcing the rules here. If folks feel they were unfairly moderated they are free to appeal to CM Ambassador Kael who will have the final word on it. Someone tagging us doesn't mean they are using us as their "attack dogs" but doing what they are supposed to do in alerting to potential problems they've seen. I would rather someone tag me and it be nothing than to let a full on nuclear guano storm go off.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
I feel the need to say something here since my post kind of started it. Yes, I had some negative feedback about how things have been done, I stand by all of it, but I was also happy to see them actually addressing the issue. Anytime that Cryptic has taken the time to actually respond, I for one have changed my tune immediately.. why? because I want to encourage the behavior. Many others have followed suit, I try and endeavor to not be negative toward Kael or Cryptic staff on this board when they attempt to engage.. why? because attacking them when they finally try to comply with the wishes of the players is not the way to encourage them to continue to do so. Yes, there will always be those that can never be satisfied, those that are going to be hostile and angry no matter what.. that always exists but that is a minority of people and others can't modify their behavior to account for these people. Again, while I have my issues with how Cryptic generally handles things, their transparency in this case was appreciated as was their feedback, and it's something I believe should be responded to in a fair and responsible fashion to encourage future communication going forward.
As for the other part, you need to understand that certain people are not worth engaging with. The poster you refer to posts for one reason and that's to get a reaction which you provide. I am baffled that people continue to pointlessly engage and interact with this poster. They have an obvious agenda, they are adamant and unreasonable in that agenda, and will not be swayed under any conditions. Why engage with that? With respect, you bring this on yourself.. stop doing it.
This statement implies that Cryptic was once open and forthcoming and was shut down by people that responded negatively despite their best effort. That would be revisionist history at best and an outright fabrication at worst.
Accurate and fair. These people exist in every player base.. always have always will. You don't shut down on everyone else though just because these people exist. Nothing you do will appease them anyway, you can be open or tight lipped and either way that will be shifted to their perception. What you don't do is shut down on everyone else because these people exist, that's not the proper way to handle it and sadly that has largely been Cryptic's response thus far. Now it seems they have opted to engage, again.. behavior that should be encouraged. No, some will not go along and will remain hostile, sadly I see no way to ever remedy that.
I can act only for myself and speaking as one that is often vocal against how they do things on a day to day basis, I will gladly continue to revise my behavior should their approach change. It's not like I want to be 'right,' I don't want them to be some slimy evil group conspiring in a dark corner.. that doesn't benefit anyone. Once again, I think that Kael's replies have helped to see things from their perspective and his responses were greatly appreciated. If I disagree with with was said, I will reply as such, but will refrain from attacking anything but the issue being discussed. That is how further communication is encouraged.
Yes, but see as an open forum, people are allowed to respond to whatever they want. If that means they want to respond to everyone else's post, then they are allowed to do so. And until the forum rules explicitly state that someone can't do that, you just need to accept it. People are allowed to disagree. Even if that means disagreeing with everyone else in that thread.
1. You seem to be upset that you cannot dictate how someone is allowed to respond on the forums, or with what frequency. And given the power, you clearly would, so thankfully you don't have that power.
2. You clearly want people to control their tone to be in a way you personally find acceptable, which is just not your place. That's for the mods to do, who should clearly be more discerning between "aggressive" and "assertive" because there is a difference mods. something is not "aggressive" just because people said it aggressively in their own heads.
3. You seem to want people's posts/opinions to go unchallenged. That is not how open discussion or freedom of speech work, or the world frankly. Discussions doesn't mean "I get to say what I want and no one can respond if its not in line with what I'm thinking or feeling."
4. You don't have to like someone picking apart points, but frankly that's just too bad. That's not something you can control. And is again, not against the forum's rules. And if it was, then that is not conducive to open conversation.
5. it is cool actually. if people can't keep up with the argument and defend their points, then its a weak argument to begin with.
6. You know what I don't see called out? The fact there is definitely a collection of blue names on these forums, who get preferential treatment from the moderators. Because I see these blue names CONSTANTLY going into other people's threads and doing the EXACT thing you are complaining about here. Or even ganging up on individual posters in their threads, essentially ripping those threads apart. And reporting/flagging does nothing because of this special treatment. I know because I've literally tried doing it and nothing happens.
7. You know what else I don't see called out? The mob mentality from blue names who seem to be under the delusion that just because they have a blue name, their opinion on these forums are more important or carry more weight than the rest of us. Spoiler: they don't. And THAT, that is also quite off putting to people on these forums as well.
8. Or how about the fact that there is an environment here where people create threads where apparently opinions = facts. Which is not the case. And some people challenge that. which is good, it should be challenged. And sometimes that's will result in multiple posts. The take away? Check yourself. Stop trying to pass off your feelings as empirical truths, then maybe people won't feel the need to constantly dissect your posts.
9. Also literally listen to yourself, you are literally complaining that people keep responding to posts...on a forum...do you hear how ridiculous that sounds?
What you seem to want is a much stricter forum policy on speech and posting. And THAT is what is not conducive to legitimate conversation my dude, that is what should get called out. It doesn't matter if you don't want to hear one person's opinion on everything. Too bad. This is an open forum, if you don't want that, then start your own forum. Hell maybe even start a discord group to discuss things with certain people where other people can't reply. That way you have your echo chamber/safe space.
Otherwise you have no right telling someone how they can't or shouldn't be responding to posts. As long as they are staying within the forum rules, and last time I checked, picking apart/analyzing/ responding to posts ISN'T against the forum rules, then you need to just practice some radical acceptance.
Also you know, ignoring people is a thing you DO have control over. Maybe try that instead. Or even, and I know this is going to be a radical idea for most of you, but interpersonal communication. Maybe if you know how this person's usually responds, but you want to start a thread, you can personally message them and be like "hey i want to start this thread, but I know it might tick you off, could you maybe just stay way?"
Now they might still do it, but you can't control. But that would be how most adults would communicate. And that's the other issue, there is just an astounding lack of adult communication here. Though honestly, some people need to just pull their head out of their own butts and be grown ups. But that seems to be beyond the capacity for posters AND moderators here.
There I said my piece. Please feel free to dissect my post, even though according to your own logic, that would make you the largest hypocrite on this forum. Spoiler: it doesn't because we're on a forum, you're allowed to do that. Enjoy that
While they don't always respond to every individual post or question, when they do respond they're generally as forthcoming as they can be short of breaking NDA. Some Cryptic team members are more chatty than others but you'll get that with any team. We can debate how often they comment on things and how effective it is, but that's not what I was referring to there. I was referring to those who ignore the fact that Cryptic does in fact routinely respond to things and does answer questions within reason. They may not respond as often as people would like, and they may not often like the answer that Cryptic gives but that doesn't negate the fact that Cryptic often does put a fair amount of info out there. Too many adopt the stance that if they didn't see it, or it wasn't what they wanted, that it's somehow Cryptic's fault or Cryptic isn't doing enough or similar. I can't tell you the number of times I've seen that happen where they go over something on stream or in a blog, it gets talked about here on the forums by some of the usual crew who are typically the first to cover it, but STILL some of these people miss it or act like nothing happened, then want to blame Cryptic for them getting caught unprepared.
This is where the human factor is definitely a thing. If someone thinks they're going to get screamed at no matter what they do, what exactly is their motivation to engage with the other person(s)? If someone is going to be a tool no matter what I do, I have no motivation to engage with those kinds of people anymore than I have to. Why is anyone going to go out of their way to interact with people that are going to be ungrateful or full on tools no matter what they do? Whether folks think they're being a tool or not is irrelevant to that point, as it's a matter of how the people they want to interact with them perceive them that matters in that instance. This is why I harp on keeping discussions civil when I am forced to step in as a mod. Folks can convey their frustrations without being complete donkeys about it. Sadly its often the very loud vocal minority that often ruins it for everyone else.
Folks also need to understand that although Cryptic may wish they could give us a play by play of what's going on behind the scenes, that's not always possible or practical. I can't tell you how many times I've seen Kael say on stream he can't talk about certain bits of upcoming content but folks keep asking him anyways. Dude would love to tell us, but often can't. Simply because they're silent doesn't mean they're doing nothing. It often means they can't talk about it yet. However that's often not good enough for certain people and they keep pushing the envelope and end up ruining it for others. The only way to remedy this kind of situation fully is to change human nature, which none of us have the power to do.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
Not to insults or uncivil discussions, mind you, but to "negative feedback", because they like to feel good about themselves and what they do. Which is completely understandable, if it wasn't for the fact that if you only answer to "positive feedback"... you aren't answering to feedback at all, but to compliments. And that is an entirely different thing.
Now, same as @seaofsorrows, I'm one of those people that is not shy when it comes to calling them out when they do something bad and I haven't always maintened the most civil conversation, but to place the blame solely on one side is, in my opinion, unfair.
Without pinging him directly again, I'm gonna quote him this time:
This is part of the matter and it's a vicious cicle that will continue until someone breaks it. They were never truly forthcoming to begin with - and I'm not talking about stuff they can't talk about because of NDAs and what have you, but even about bugs and glitches, for example, which are unfortunately part of every game in existence - but what little they would tell us stopped the moment a very vocal, but very small nonetheless, minority started harping on them.
That in turn made people even more angry, and influenced even those that have always been civil and patient, because when you ask - politely, I might add... I won't take into account rants and vents and insults - and all you receive is silence or, at best, dismissive answers things starts to get heated.
Communication is a two-way street, and while I don't intend to ask them to engage with the most unruly parts of the playerbase, I do expect them to communicate with the vast majority of people that are, despite what many may think, open minded and civil when it comes to having a discussion.
What irks me about all of this is that these forums have been pretty much abandoned in favour of Reddit because of their "hostile environment", but the subReddit isn't any less hostile.
So, on top of having communication trickle down once every blue moon, we have it on a platform where many don't go because they: a) aren't aware of it or b) feels that the official forums (and maybe twitter) should be where those communications takes place.
Human factor is... a factor (pun not intended), of course. But it's not a questione of anyone "going out of their way" to interact with anyone else. It's a question of having a CM that engages with the community regardless of the disrespect of a few people, because "the needs of the many outweights the needs of the few... or the one".
As I said above, it's a cycle that must be broken, but it needs both parts for that: we can argue all day about how people need to stop harping on them whenever they communicate something, but ultimately if the communication stops almost as soon as it has begun because of a few uncivil TRIBBLEs, then the cycle will continue on exactly as it is and we'll never go anywhere.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.