My question is, why can't Cryptic give it a rest with big bad enemies that are only going to last for about a year before being defeated and never touched again? If you ask me, the Iconian threat should have spanned the entire game. It should have remained a faceless threat, even after we learned that they were the ones pulling all the strings. They should have remained the demons of air and darkness. With an ever present threat from beyond the galaxy, coupled with threats from other dimensions and timelines, there is a substantial reason for the primary civilizations to remain allies in more than name. Not only to stand united against the threats, but also to actively work together to seek out the means of leveling the playing field.
Because that ultimately isn't good planning, or narrative design.
Keeping the Iconians around as the badguy throughout the whole game only leads to the possibility of the game shutting down without the major plot arc finished. There also comes a point where it simply because too ridiculous that any one power is behind so much stuff in the game, and leads to a lot of meandering plot problems, and a "I'll get you next time Gadget!" villain that loses any credibility.
This same applies to smaller threats. Despite how much people love to meme it, most story arcs STO has done haven't presented the villains as giant, galaxy ending, threats. Because, you know, most things realistically aren't. Most problems are local problems, with the enemy faction being after a very specific objective. By the end of that arc, that objective has either been accomplished, removed, or put outside the enemy's ability to affect, so why would they stay around?
Not to mention, a year in game terms in an eon. Two years is an eternity. At some point people start to grow bored of the current story, and want something else, so they can see new things, places, etc. etc. You can't just keep dragging one story along year, after year, after year, and expect people to stay interested in it.
With the Iconians, they actually kept things interesting for quite some time. It's not an I'll get you next time Gadget!" villain if that villain never really tries its best and only uses others to stir up trouble.
The Iconians got several powers to work for them. They never really stopped us in the end, but they did postpone the moment where they had to get their hands dirty in the conflict for a long time, while seriously damaging those who opposed them. Several Delta Quadrant powers were wiped out or had their power greatly reduced. Multiple species were completely dominated by them. Thanks to the Undine, there was years of infighting and unnecessary death and destruction among what would become the members of the Alliance. The Romulan Republic lost several worlds to one of their puppets at a critical point in its development.
Sure, at some point you want to move on. But STO's writers have proven they're capable of keeping an enemy interesting and threatening for a longer period of time. Actually, I'd argue that their enemies became less interesting once they started to focus less on one overarching enemy and made every bad guy more or less stand on its own. See Mirror Leeta for example, if you want a true Dr. Claw-like enemy.
As for seeing new things and places: that's perfectly possible when one big enemy doesn't show its face and tries to influence everything that happens from behind the curtain. The game is not limited to one or two instances or moments, exactly because this big bad enemy can be influencing everything.
With the Iconians, they actually kept things interesting for quite some time. It's not an I'll get you next time Gadget!" villain if that villain never really tries its best and only uses others to stir up trouble.
The Iconians got several powers to work for them. They never really stopped us in the end, but they did postpone the moment where they had to get their hands dirty in the conflict for a long time, while seriously damaging those who opposed them. Several Delta Quadrant powers were wiped out or had their power greatly reduced. Multiple species were completely dominated by them. Thanks to the Undine, there was years of infighting and unnecessary death and destruction among what would become the members of the Alliance. The Romulan Republic lost several worlds to one of their puppets at a critical point in its development.
Sure, at some point you want to move on. But STO's writers have proven they're capable of keeping an enemy interesting and threatening for a longer period of time. Actually, I'd argue that their enemies became less interesting once they started to focus less on one overarching enemy and made every bad guy more or less stand on its own. See Mirror Leeta for example, if you want a true Dr. Claw-like enemy.
As for seeing new things and places: that's perfectly possible when one big enemy doesn't show its face and tries to influence everything that happens from behind the curtain. The game is not limited to one or two instances or moments, exactly because this big bad enemy can be influencing everything.
The Iconians were only interesting for so long because they weren't actually there 99% of the time, and the stories were more about the races they manipulated rather then the Iconians themselves. However, even before Delta Rising hit, I recall a lot of people asking if we could just get to the Iconians already, because they felt the narrative had been dragged out way too long. And not every enemy can be such high level galactic manipulators.
I also generally prefer the villains we have gotten since the Iconians, compared to the ones before them. The Temporal Liberation Front powers, Noye, the Sphere Builders, and Na'kuhl, all had some fairly legitimate reasons to hate us beyond "we want more power", Neth Parr and the whole Tzenkethi arc was great stuff, as was Victory is Life. I even prefer J'Ula over past villains like B'vat, or Hakeev. She at least has a reason to believe the things she does, coming from an era where the Klingon Empire was on the brink of collapse after a century of civil war, after having lost traditional Klingon ideals. Rather then Hakeev or B'vat, who were just kind of dumb.
I do enjoy the rare moments when you are not being a white knight and we can agree on something.
I quite liked how they tied in the bugs from the TNG episode "Conspiracy" into the game, always annoyed me that they basicly just dropped that whole storyline.
I think revisiting the post Hur'q invasion Tzenkethi could be interesting or even revisiting the Hur'q themselves. Doing a storyline based around the Hur'q, helping them put down a faction wanting to return to the old days of swarming and eating perhaps? That way we can explore and develop a unique, non-humanoid faction.
I do enjoy the rare moments when you are not being a white knight and we can agree on something.
I quite liked how they tied in the bugs from the TNG episode "Conspiracy" into the game, always annoyed me that they basicly just dropped that whole storyline.
I think revisiting the post Hur'q invasion Tzenkethi could be interesting or even revisiting the Hur'q themselves. Doing a storyline based around the Hur'q, helping them put down a faction wanting to return to the old days of swarming and eating perhaps? That way we can explore and develop a unique, non-humanoid faction.
I wish I could say that I enjoyed the moments where you didn't try to boil down anyone who systematically disagrees with you to "white knight". But alas, such civility is obviously beyond your reach.
They didn't drop the Bluegill storyline in STO. We found out they were infesting the Vaadwaur, and later tracked down their hive, and killed their queen, in the Bug Hunt TFO, ending that problem. Unless you meant you were annoyed that TNG dropped that storyline.
The Hur'q never had "old days" of swarming an eating. The old days of the Hur'q was that they were a completely pacifist species, that didn't have guns on their spaceships, when the Dominion found them. They only started swarming because the Dominion's removal of the fungus that they ate on their homeworld caused a brain imbalance that blocked off their ability to feel things like emotions, turning them into nearly mindless eating machines working on instinct. No Hur'q liked doing what they did.
Reading comprehension has never been your thing. Yes, I meant how TNG droped it.
Clearly you have an MPD problem as you are the ONLY person I have called a white knight.....
My question is, why can't Cryptic give it a rest with big bad enemies that are only going to last for about a year before being defeated and never touched again? If you ask me, the Iconian threat should have spanned the entire game. It should have remained a faceless threat, even after we learned that they were the ones pulling all the strings. They should have remained the demons of air and darkness. With an ever present threat from beyond the galaxy, coupled with threats from other dimensions and timelines, there is a substantial reason for the primary civilizations to remain allies in more than name. Not only to stand united against the threats, but also to actively work together to seek out the means of leveling the playing field.
Up until the Iconian War, the Iconians WERE the threat that spanned the entire game. But there's only so many proxy wars you can have before certain actions start to draw attention, and prompt a more direct response. If Sela hadn't poked the Andromeda Sphere, its entirely possible the Iconians would have waited longer.
Its possible as time goes on we may have another multi arc hidden enemy, maybe even one from Andromeda. But for now its arc based.
I still feel that access to Andromeda through the Gateways may open up things more. I seriously doubt the Iconians didn't leave space gates in Andromeda, as those would have made resource gathering easier. And we know the Kelvans came from Andromeda.
Exploration is a nice thought...but, there hasn't been plan of any kind for that in a long time.
...There are some novels that are out showing things moving forward after Voyager's return and TNG with Riker and wife *out currently*, but anyone else?
But every show *film/tv* after 2009, has been past related, nothing forward, and no, I don't count S-T-D as a progression point. Cause it jumped ahead and left a near thousand years in the past of stories not told...
Yea as I identified above I'd like to revisit previous planets like we did with Iconia prior to it being destroyed, to see in the years since the peace accord if they've terra-formed. There's also a lot of other planets, that could use a 2nd map showing progression, why I'd like to see a 2411 thread, and close the longest running year of 2410.
I know they had worked on plan for Mirror Leeta to conclude her story, as they did with Tasha Yar; it's possible it may have tie in with Cardassia (being near badlands) as well, as a few very subtle hints dropped on one occasion.
Players have also for years expressed interest in visiting both Cardassia and Ferenginar. Especially finding somewhere they could go like the Commerce Authority, to speak of the value of GPL at least to Ferengi.
I would like to see some exploration of the Liberated Borg or current Cardassian situation.
But yes, I also like the Exploration idea...
...
It also be great to see a new aspect of the game introduced that deals with Exploration, Diplomacy, and Tactic's across the Alliance as well -- as a challenge for the DEVs to find a workable, yet new aspect to game play -- not previously explored.
And it would be amazing to have Riker perhaps involved, yet I'd greatly love to see Q, or if not him then certainly Q Junior (His son in real life) as an Alternative. That's the one thing I'm really missing from Discover, Picard, and possible Strange New World's as well; someone to Represent the Continuum.
Maybe after YoK, Leeta's defeat and PIC content, J'mpok and his loyal Klingon allies recruit the Zhat Vash,, Terran Empire and the remaining True Way members to form the Anti-Alliance, as a way to discredit the Alliance and make us look like the bad guys.
While the story of the Klingon Civil War won't reach it's conclusion until the spring
Though, I would like to see the Sheliak, or the Kelvans, show up myself.
I agree with these choices. It would be great in one mission we have to play a mini-game in where we need to use the "treaty" to talk our way to convince the Sheliak to listen to us. etc.. As for the Kelvan-verse, since it seems we may never get another film from that series then the STO staff can really make that canon their own.
I remember in an old interview the developers commented that they like to work on stuff that is very obscure to the franchise since they have more freedom on what to do with it.
Totally agree with this point. After all I think Romulan faction only includes: Romulans, Remans, & Alien still.
IIRC, the Suliban were going to be part of the Romulan faction in LoR, but they got cut because the story was too focused on the Romulans/Remans for it to really make sense why a Suliban would be there/feel the same way. This is why you go to a Suliban Helix early on, and the Romulan sector space service ship is a Suliban ship.
Though I will agree they should be added to the Romulan faction, instead of being made badguys. The Sulbian, as a species, weren't evil. Only the Cabal was. And its mentioned in Enterprise that the Cabal lacked the ability to time travel, and thus, only operated in the ENT-era timeframe.
Oh wow, that's some cool insight, somtaawkhar, & I wish Cryptic had gone ahead & included them.
The easier thing would be scrap the entire game and make a STO 2
Discussion about a hypothetical STO 2 is forbidden. Thus Sayeth Cryptic...
Even if it weren't, it is far from the easiest thing to do. You do know that it takes anywhere from 4 to 6 years for an MMO to be produced? And it will require a full development team, not just a skeleton crew like Cryptic has to develop it that quickly...
The only reason why Cryptic was able to deliver STO after only 2 years in development is because they already had a working engine that was highly adaptable, which eliminated the need to build core functionality from the ground up. But, because of the specific needs of the game according to original design goals declared by Jack Emmert, the amount of work was still way more than just 2 years would allow. That is why the game launched with only the UFP faction being complete in terms of being capable of full PvE and PvP, while the KDF was almost exclusively PvP. It HAD to be this way... Because all of Star Trek canon has been UFP-centric, and at least that aspect had to be delivered to satisfy CBS' requirement that a viable product be deliverable before the existing license period expired. Perpetual Entertainment squandered half of the licensing period, putting out fake images showing what they said were in-engine examples, when they hadn't even really begun heavy development. When CBS audited them on their progress, they determined that they would not be ready in time, so the license was stripped from them. However, Perpetual did suggest that they pass the existing license over to someone else, and Cryptic was recommended.
Cryptic has always been a small team. Way smaller than the Trek license should have gone to. But they got a once in a lifetime chance to build an MMO based on one of the largest IPs in the world, and what they did manage to accomplish in only two years was nothing short of phenomenal.
But the core game was designed so tightly around the concept of two opposing factions that every system in the game was HARDCODED to that effect, and that everything from playable races to costume parts to ships, to BOFFs to gear were restricted to one faction or another... This is why we could not get a true 3rd faction when LoR came out. It's also why that characters on the KDF side cannot group with characters on the UFP side, even though the Alliance narrative that Cryptic has embraced says we should.
The only way the hardcoded mechanics will allow everyone to be able to group together is for everyone to be in the same faction... Or more accurately, in NO faction. Faction 0. I think that this is what the whole "fly any ship in the game" change is inbound. It would not surprise me that as they have been adding all the Faction 2 ships to faction 1 and vice versa, they have also been adding all Faction 1 and 2 ships to Faction 0.
I predict that the next step will be to do the same with character races and all the elements that come with it.
After that, the mechanics for all other existing faction-specific elements will be added to Faction 0. When everything from Factions 1 and 2 become homogenized with each other and in Faction 0, which will probably take the rest of the year, possibly into the next, I predict that there will be a new origin story, that of the Galactic Alliance which will start and STAY in faction 0 and at level 65, like the JH
Factions 1 and 2 will have the option of converting to Faction 0, which will be viable because everything already available to both factions would be available in it. Except for PvP, which does not fit the alliance narrative anyway. The conversion to Faction 0 would be facilitated by the optional attendance of the formal signing of the Galactic Union Charter in which all member civilizations would be seen as equals. This would not happen until Level 65 is achieved, but once the signing ceremony is attended by a player, all the walls come down. Chosing not to attend would allow the status quo to be maintained, with PvP options still available IF that is a make-or-break item. But, going forward all new ships, races, costumes, whatever would be added to Faction 0 ONLY. The formalization of the Alliance/Union would mark the beginning of a new era where the conflicts of the past are no more, But anyone wishing to start or continue to play in the 2409 era would still be able to do so, which would included all other origin stories.
The ability to fly all ships does change the face of the game. At least in space. But it does not signal the felling of the walls tht divide the factions. So what we've been officially told is true. But I cannot see them stopping with ships. As to the stories they can tell going forward, I maintain that exploration of the galaxies together would be good if the narrative is a quest to find the means of leveling the playing field beteween the alliance and the existential threats coming from extragalactic and extradimensional forces that keep rearing their ugly heads.
Sure, i didn't mean to start flame or anyting, i was just considering previous discussions and the times Cryptic guys mentioned problems with the old code.
That's why i said "Not for fanrage", but trying to give actual discussion as the resul of that move would have lead to much more freedom for developers without encumberance but, surely, would be costly.
Of course the thing they do, working around the flaws and limitations to do their thing is admirable and i am content as is, just giving my bucks to the discussion.
Speaking of story arcs, i do hope for the Terran Empire to be a thing, or Cardassia to be involved... expecially due to how they interact with most powers throughout the show.
Exploration returning though would be a very welcome surprise.
Mirror Leeta and Killy is definitely a lingering thread. Something that reveals who the Emperor is now since James O'Brien no longer exists.
I'd like to see them do something for ENT's 20th this year. Maybe a Section 31 themed episode that undoes that god awful finale by giving us a Vulcan contact played by Connor Trinneer...
If there's more plot to be had with the Borg that'd be nice, an xB faction would be fun but would need justification and I doubt an origin of the Borg story would be allowed by CBS.
Maybe a coda to the temporal war arc. One last set of battles, bring back the Guardian and be there when time travel is made illegal. Bonus dialogue to TOS and DSC era characters who have to accept their arbitrary new forever home in 2411 or 12.
Whatever happened to the Enterprise-E? Probably can't tell that story.
Is there a story about holographic sentience still be told? I mean, we can have androids left right and centre in Starfleet and the KDF so maybe not but it would be a fun way of bringing back the Doctor and holo-Stamets and the Burnham simulacrum, the latter of which would be fun to see in today's uniform.
What kind of plot could bring us an appearance by Ezri on the Aventine or show us if the Cerritos is still around or I don't know give us Captain Vale on the Titan? Sod it. Fen Domar. I want a Fen Domar plot. Teased as aggressive aliens, complete blank slate. Go for it.
Whatever happened to the Enterprise-E? Probably can't tell that story.
Cryptic has mentioned in the past that CBS has explicitly forbid them saying what happened to the ENT-E in-game, in case they do something with it.
There was a non-canon sotry from one of the STO writers in an issue of Star Trek magazine years ago that said the ENT-E was sent to investigate why the Federation lost contact with a starbase, and it turned out the Undine had destroyed it, and then they attack and destroy the ENT-E, but Captain Data and most of the crew, get out in the escape pods.
Mirror Leeta and Killy is definitely a lingering thread. Something that reveals who the Emperor is now since James O'Brien no longer exists.
I'd like to see them do something for ENT's 20th this year. Maybe a Section 31 themed episode that undoes that god awful finale by giving us a Vulcan contact played by Connor Trinneer...
If there's more plot to be had with the Borg that'd be nice, an xB faction would be fun but would need justification and I doubt an origin of the Borg story would be allowed by CBS.
Maybe a coda to the temporal war arc. One last set of battles, bring back the Guardian and be there when time travel is made illegal. Bonus dialogue to TOS and DSC era characters who have to accept their arbitrary new forever home in 2411 or 12.
Whatever happened to the Enterprise-E? Probably can't tell that story.
Is there a story about holographic sentience still be told? I mean, we can have androids left right and centre in Starfleet and the KDF so maybe not but it would be a fun way of bringing back the Doctor and holo-Stamets and the Burnham simulacrum, the latter of which would be fun to see in today's uniform.
What kind of plot could bring us an appearance by Ezri on the Aventine or show us if the Cerritos is still around or I don't know give us Captain Vale on the Titan? Sod it. Fen Domar. I want a Fen Domar plot. Teased as aggressive aliens, complete blank slate. Go for it.
Maybe undo Trip Tucker's death, along the way, Denobulans were know to do genetic research, who's to say that Phlox didn't clone Trip like he did with Sim, maybe have a prime timeline version of Lorian who was like a big brother to Spock.
Comments
I quite liked the Lizards, would be nice to revisit them.
With the Iconians, they actually kept things interesting for quite some time. It's not an I'll get you next time Gadget!" villain if that villain never really tries its best and only uses others to stir up trouble.
The Iconians got several powers to work for them. They never really stopped us in the end, but they did postpone the moment where they had to get their hands dirty in the conflict for a long time, while seriously damaging those who opposed them. Several Delta Quadrant powers were wiped out or had their power greatly reduced. Multiple species were completely dominated by them. Thanks to the Undine, there was years of infighting and unnecessary death and destruction among what would become the members of the Alliance. The Romulan Republic lost several worlds to one of their puppets at a critical point in its development.
Sure, at some point you want to move on. But STO's writers have proven they're capable of keeping an enemy interesting and threatening for a longer period of time. Actually, I'd argue that their enemies became less interesting once they started to focus less on one overarching enemy and made every bad guy more or less stand on its own. See Mirror Leeta for example, if you want a true Dr. Claw-like enemy.
As for seeing new things and places: that's perfectly possible when one big enemy doesn't show its face and tries to influence everything that happens from behind the curtain. The game is not limited to one or two instances or moments, exactly because this big bad enemy can be influencing everything.
I do enjoy the rare moments when you are not being a white knight and we can agree on something.
I quite liked how they tied in the bugs from the TNG episode "Conspiracy" into the game, always annoyed me that they basicly just dropped that whole storyline.
I think revisiting the post Hur'q invasion Tzenkethi could be interesting or even revisiting the Hur'q themselves. Doing a storyline based around the Hur'q, helping them put down a faction wanting to return to the old days of swarming and eating perhaps? That way we can explore and develop a unique, non-humanoid faction.
Reading comprehension has never been your thing. Yes, I meant how TNG droped it.
Clearly you have an MPD problem as you are the ONLY person I have called a white knight.....
Up until the Iconian War, the Iconians WERE the threat that spanned the entire game. But there's only so many proxy wars you can have before certain actions start to draw attention, and prompt a more direct response. If Sela hadn't poked the Andromeda Sphere, its entirely possible the Iconians would have waited longer.
Its possible as time goes on we may have another multi arc hidden enemy, maybe even one from Andromeda. But for now its arc based.
I still feel that access to Andromeda through the Gateways may open up things more. I seriously doubt the Iconians didn't leave space gates in Andromeda, as those would have made resource gathering easier. And we know the Kelvans came from Andromeda.
Yea as I identified above I'd like to revisit previous planets like we did with Iconia prior to it being destroyed, to see in the years since the peace accord if they've terra-formed. There's also a lot of other planets, that could use a 2nd map showing progression, why I'd like to see a 2411 thread, and close the longest running year of 2410.
I know they had worked on plan for Mirror Leeta to conclude her story, as they did with Tasha Yar; it's possible it may have tie in with Cardassia (being near badlands) as well, as a few very subtle hints dropped on one occasion.
Players have also for years expressed interest in visiting both Cardassia and Ferenginar. Especially finding somewhere they could go like the Commerce Authority, to speak of the value of GPL at least to Ferengi.
And it would be amazing to have Riker perhaps involved, yet I'd greatly love to see Q, or if not him then certainly Q Junior (His son in real life) as an Alternative. That's the one thing I'm really missing from Discover, Picard, and possible Strange New World's as well; someone to Represent the Continuum.
Why not just add them to the Romulan faction instead?
Totally agree with this point. After all I think Romulan faction only includes: Romulans, Remans, & Alien still.
I agree with these choices. It would be great in one mission we have to play a mini-game in where we need to use the "treaty" to talk our way to convince the Sheliak to listen to us. etc.. As for the Kelvan-verse, since it seems we may never get another film from that series then the STO staff can really make that canon their own.
I remember in an old interview the developers commented that they like to work on stuff that is very obscure to the franchise since they have more freedom on what to do with it.
Oh wow, that's some cool insight, somtaawkhar, & I wish Cryptic had gone ahead & included them.
I wonder what is Cryptic's excuse nowadays lol.
Sure, i didn't mean to start flame or anyting, i was just considering previous discussions and the times Cryptic guys mentioned problems with the old code.
That's why i said "Not for fanrage", but trying to give actual discussion as the resul of that move would have lead to much more freedom for developers without encumberance but, surely, would be costly.
Of course the thing they do, working around the flaws and limitations to do their thing is admirable and i am content as is, just giving my bucks to the discussion.
Speaking of story arcs, i do hope for the Terran Empire to be a thing, or Cardassia to be involved... expecially due to how they interact with most powers throughout the show.
Exploration returning though would be a very welcome surprise.
I'd like to see them do something for ENT's 20th this year. Maybe a Section 31 themed episode that undoes that god awful finale by giving us a Vulcan contact played by Connor Trinneer...
If there's more plot to be had with the Borg that'd be nice, an xB faction would be fun but would need justification and I doubt an origin of the Borg story would be allowed by CBS.
Maybe a coda to the temporal war arc. One last set of battles, bring back the Guardian and be there when time travel is made illegal. Bonus dialogue to TOS and DSC era characters who have to accept their arbitrary new forever home in 2411 or 12.
Whatever happened to the Enterprise-E? Probably can't tell that story.
Is there a story about holographic sentience still be told? I mean, we can have androids left right and centre in Starfleet and the KDF so maybe not but it would be a fun way of bringing back the Doctor and holo-Stamets and the Burnham simulacrum, the latter of which would be fun to see in today's uniform.
What kind of plot could bring us an appearance by Ezri on the Aventine or show us if the Cerritos is still around or I don't know give us Captain Vale on the Titan? Sod it. Fen Domar. I want a Fen Domar plot. Teased as aggressive aliens, complete blank slate. Go for it.
So, that happened...
Maybe undo Trip Tucker's death, along the way, Denobulans were know to do genetic research, who's to say that Phlox didn't clone Trip like he did with Sim, maybe have a prime timeline version of Lorian who was like a big brother to Spock.