klingon elite to'duj fighter squadron broken?

t0m

is there a reason elite hangars make like 1000k dmg less than die blue regular build in pets?

i use them with
- ship trait: Superior Area Denial
- space trait: Wing Commander
- space-skills, coordination protocols + offensice coordination, hangar health + hangar weaponry


see elite pet dmg

blue hangar pets

phoenixc

It is probably from the problem the AI has with fighters and cannon firing arcs. If they have single cannons at blue then upgrade to dual canons later chances are they will miss more often than hit because of the narrower arc. Sometimes cannon armed fighters never hit with anything except their turrets for instance.

burstorion

Yeah...rule of thumb is for dps either go beam using pets or stick to the highest level pet before they get dual cannons... Cryptic could easily fix this without AI work by making pet dual cannons have 180 arc but..y'know...cryptic.

voodoopokey

t0m#2593 wrote: »

is there a reason elite hangars make like 1000k dmg less than die blue regular build in pets?

i use them with
- ship trait: Superior Area Denial
- space trait: Wing Commander
- space-skills, coordination protocols + offensice coordination, hangar health + hangar weaponry


see elite pet dmg

blue hangar pets

This has been covered in many other threads at this point AND on the sto wiki.

Hangar pets that use cannons often have a turret, but at basic and advanced levels they get a lesser type of turret called a Pulse Cannon. This is typically replaced with a real turret at the elite level. Ordinarily that's a good thing... but pulse cannons interact with the Superior Area Denial trait to do more damage than a turret would.. or even regular cannons... SAD turns pulse cannons into a 360 degree dual heavy cannon or something nastier.

That's why, with SAD, you're often going to have higher damage with Advanced pets than Elite pets. It has nothing to do with firing arcs or AI, just a quirky trait thing.

If you stop using SAD you'll see the average damage ramps down and the elite pets will do more than the advanced or basic.

t0m

voodoopokey wrote: »

This has been covered in many other threads at this point AND on the sto wiki.

thanks for summen it up anyway

voodoopokey wrote: »

but pulse cannons interact with the Superior Area Denial trait to do more damage than a turret would.. or even regular cannons

i thoughts went in the same direction. but i thoguh about those two different fire modes. not seeing that the weaponry actually change or that SAD do more bonus to pulse versions of those cannons

voodoopokey wrote: »

If you stop using SAD you'll see the average damage ramps down and the elite pets will do more than the advanced or basic.

i can see that while testing. but not entirely as you discribe. it either comes down to the fact, that pulse versions of those cannons are plain higher in dmg, or that they might just mixed up the blue and elite DMG for klingon TO'DUJ pets. i just tested it and the advanced fighters still clearly do more dmg than elite. even without SAD trait. roughly up to 2/3 more. the blue ones do the 1k easily without SAD which makes them even stronger than advanced version. using SAD with those two will end up in roughly identical dmg between blue and advanced. only elite shows way less dmg with both settings (SAD/no SAD). so my initial thinking, about those elite fighters beeing broken might just be true. reports from a fleet mate with jem'hadar carrier says, that those new jem'hadar pets do the dmg properly from blue to elite. it climbs up as one can expect. a test of another fleet mate with romulan version indicates, that the fighters are just as broken as the klingon version. blue dmg there is also easy up around 1k dmg. but since romulan reputation is currently unavailable we weren't able to test the romulan elite pets to compare.

buttom line: i'm more than happy with the adavend fighters + SAD combined dmg output for pve. you litrally just need to stand there and let them do the rest after seeing those new carriers and love them for their design i just saw the weaponry 3:3 and was like "no way i'm buying those". but i cought myself thinking "what if those new pets make up for those missing weapons and tactic consoles i so much like and need for my overload-buil" ... so then i got zen left over and just bought the klingon for the love of having a good looking ship for my klingon char. the amount of fighters with dmg between 1,5k to 2k, even crits with 10k was mindblowing for me as u can imagine, since they appear with only having the blue fighters installed i just love them! small adjustments on that overload build to get some hangar-bonuses and the party is about to start

i just wish i had knew that before spending 80k dilithium into the elite squadrons i was expecting even higher dmg with those than the 1 to 2k i had right from the start with blue pets^^

darknovasc01

Is there a list somewhere of which pets are, for want of a better word 'broken', in terms of damage being reduced on higher level versions, whether in general or in specific circumstances such as use of SAD?

I know of one or two that are often discussed, but if there is a complete list it would be very helpful - possibly something to be stickied on the forums, if it is not already?

t0m

i dont't know. but i am testing further more with my mates with those new pets. i think it's save to say, that the new pets make much more dmg than any older ones. they are higher in numbers and higher in dmg they deal. and that combination makes them quit lethal in pve (given a prooper general build as foundation).

when it comes to the jem'hadar pets switching from having pulse cannons to real cannons, it seems there is no difference in dmg dealt. but i can double check that specificly later this day.

i also have the caitian carrier. but without any trait except fleet general (which has only an effect on the pets EP). the pets also make the expectet "dmg-climb-up" from blue to elite. i can't wait to get my hands on scramble fighters trait and SAD for that one too to finish a full build up exotic dmg dealer with those escalating pets around but what i figured with that carrier so far, is that the console reinforcing squadrons seems to be broken here too. i can't see any fighters entering the scene while using it on caitan carrier (console is from temporal flight deck carrier). different char with promo-miracle-version of that ship shows clearly new fighters entering the scene with huge graphical effects when using this consoles click-ability.

(i forgot to mention that i also use scramble fighters trait on that klingon of mine since i was lucky enough to get one out of delta dof box. quit hard to get SAD trait on starfleet side though )

voodoopokey

t0m wrote:

i thoughts went in the same direction. but i thoguh about those two different fire modes. not seeing that the weaponry actually change or that SAD do more bonus to pulse versions of those cannons

I can assure you that pulse cannons will be doing the vast majority of your damage if you use Superior Area Denial - in everyone's tests the pulse cannon scatter volley has typically accounted for 70% or more of a given pet's damage dealt. This isn't new to the Support Carriers pets, it has been the case for a while now, and is the reason that for cannon-using pets the Advanced versions are preferred to the Elite versions in most cases, assuming the use of SAD.

t0m wrote:

i can see that while testing. but not entirely as you discribe. it either comes down to the fact, that pulse versions of those cannons are plain higher in dmg, or that they might just mixed up the blue and elite DMG for klingon TO'DUJ pets. i just tested it and the advanced fighters still clearly do more dmg than elite. even without SAD trait.

Pulse cannons do less damage than turrets ordinarily, but when under the effects of scatter volley they do significantly more.

If you're doing your own testing then don't do the mix-and-match test where you use two different types of hangar pets at the same time and compare their performance - you want to have exclusively one type or the other and just do the same content more than once. Unequip your ship weapons too while you do it. Other sources of damage and effect will result in inconsistency in your results.

t0m wrote:

i think it's save to say, that the new pets make much more dmg than any older ones.

This is not a consistent truth, no. The squadron pets are a mixed bag... primarily the inconsistencies with their non-squadron counterparts are mistakes in their weapon loadout. They are meant to be identical to their non-squadron versions in performance, just different cosmetically.

The elite scorpion squadron still has its pulse cannon rather than a turret, so without SAD they will be inferior to normal elite scorpions. With SAD they will be superior to them.

The elite jem'hadar squadron does have the expected turret but also has a pulse cannon - they forgot to have it be a trade-off - so it is superior to the normal elite jem'hadar fighters both with and without SAD.

I have not test the stalkers (because I consider them a waste of resources... pets limited to only 2 ships, only one of which is T6) or the To'duj. I'll go check the latter at some point, but I'm never in a hurry to get new KDF pets - I've never seen anything I like better than House Mokai Raiders.

westx211

voodoopokey wrote: »

t0m#2593 wrote: »

is there a reason elite hangars make like 1000k dmg less than die blue regular build in pets?

i use them with
- ship trait: Superior Area Denial
- space trait: Wing Commander
- space-skills, coordination protocols + offensice coordination, hangar health + hangar weaponry


see elite pet dmg

blue hangar pets

This has been covered in many other threads at this point AND on the sto wiki.

Hangar pets that use cannons often have a turret, but at basic and advanced levels they get a lesser type of turret called a Pulse Cannon. This is typically replaced with a real turret at the elite level. Ordinarily that's a good thing... but pulse cannons interact with the Superior Area Denial trait to do more damage than a turret would.. or even regular cannons... SAD turns pulse cannons into a 360 degree dual heavy cannon or something nastier.

That's why, with SAD, you're often going to have higher damage with Advanced pets than Elite pets. It has nothing to do with firing arcs or AI, just a quirky trait thing.

If you stop using SAD you'll see the average damage ramps down and the elite pets will do more than the advanced or basic.

Nah, it has a lot to do with hangar pet AI, the AI is too poor to properly use cannons, its why cannons on pets are worse than beams.

I mean you are correct at how SAD works with pulse canons, but again there's a reason why cannon pets are generally considered bad and its because the devs refuse to revamp/rework their ai to actually use firing arcs properly