Federation and KDF Characters cannot select Romulan Mirror Ships from the T5 Selection Box but can open and use the individual T5 Romulan Mirror Ship Boxes.
Romulan Characters cannot select Federation or KDF Mirror Ships from the T5 Selection Box and cannot open or use the individual T5 Federation or KDF Mirror Ship Boxes.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I just had an idea for a community based PvP event.
Mirror Universe Battle T5.
Rules:
T5 Mirror Ships
Green quality weapons/gear Mk XII
stock BOff abilities and traits
Only real variable then would be Spec Trees.
By limiting to T5 ships we remove Specialist seating and also make it more accessable. By making it MIRROR ships, it not only makes those mirror ships a bit more valuable, but puts pretty much everyone on an even playing field of accessability. Limiting the quality of the gear means you don't have someone coming in with a fully gold plated ship with a min/maxed build and rep gear.
If it works, a second event could expand to include other T5 "booby Prize" ships.
The goal is to level the playing field as much as possible, while still giving players some flexability to set up builds.
I may not be a PvPer, but it would make an interesting concept and also bring some new life into those old booby prize ships. Especially KDF side as KDF doesn't have as many customization options, and they do have at least 3 ships that CAN use Mirror skins at T6.
That's essentially the old Vanilla PvP ruleset (I'll see if I can dig up the original post). It did work rather well.
Edit: Here it is.
I have started a channel called VPvP for the vanilla PvP idea I suggested. It is for forming PvP with basic ships and gear in a fun and balanced environment. We are also trying to get a ground section started.
We can have any kind of games we want, like a classic T5 deathmatch (the usual format), or first guy to evasive out of 15km forfeits, or T2s vs the T5, etc. PM me or another admin with your in-game handle for an invite.
Note: The views and opinions of these folks do not necessarily represent those of VPvP as a whole, except for those explicitly stated by me (Voporak) to represent VPvP.
Current member count: 110
The rules are as follows (see bottom of rules for ground):
Space
Ships
Ship tier depends on whatever match we want to do - could be T2, 3, 4, or basic 5 (free leveling ships and mirror. Nothing from fleet shipyards, such as the Odyssey)
The channel standard is plain T5/mirror (9-console non-Cstore in other words) unless otherwise agreed upon by match participants
Just in case you didn't get that, only free Rear Admial ships from leveling up and mirror ships are allowed, except for the few C-Store exceptions
no Obelisk
no Dyson ships from the anniversary event
And let me make this abundantly clear: Please do not ask for a particular C-Store ship to be allowed, because we are only allowing certain ones in after specific consideration.
In other words, I'm not interested in whatever justification or argument for a C-store ship, because said justification will not be taken into consideration.
See bottom of rules for full list of ships
Equipment
Equipment up to Mk XI blue is allowed (Mk XI blue is equivalent to Mk X purple). One-off Mk XI purple items from missions like Hargh'Peng are allowed (fun fact, Hargh'Peng used to be blue quality)
Storyline sets (Breen, Jem'hadar) are banned. This includes stuff like the Obelisk warp core, but does not include one-off pieces like the Paratrinic shield array
no preorder items allowed (Red matter capacitor for example)
If [Borg] weapons ever existed as Mk X and someone has them, they are allowed
no Reman shield from the story mission
no quad cannons
no universal consoles
no omni beams
no Nimbus pirates
no Jevonite hardpoints
no Scorpion fighters from the Vault mission
no Devidian phase modulator
no deuterium
no Breen cluster torp
no tractor mines
Carrier pets: See ship list
batteries are okay
Bridge officers
No boffs with the rare Veteran trait
Limit 1 Human boff per ship and 1 Nausicaan boff per ship, OR 1 Hierarchy boff per ship (they have efficient and pirate)
No boffs with Superior Subterfuge, Infiltrator or Operative allowed
Saurians with Efficient are allowed
General
no starship traits
Romulans allowed
no using warp core/singularity active powers
no Romulans using fleet support as the NPC can use tractor mines
no rep passives/actives
no traits - this means all must be unslotted
no doffs
no items with special crafted traits
no fleet items
no reputation items
no C-store items (ships are not items; see ship section)
nothing that comes out of lockbox at all (except mirror ships)
nothing from the lobi store at all
be courteous
be honorable
Most recent rule changes
The Gateway thing is needed so that we can check ship gear before matches. This system relies on honor, and unfortunately there are some people who are not honorable. If anyone is caught intentionally breaking these rules (we will be able to tell if it's intentional. If you're all strapped up with clicky consoles and stuff we would see during a fight, you probably just forgot to swap your stuff), you get a first warning and a kick from the channel a second time.
I predict that, within a year, PvP will be removed from this game on the grounds of it being too hard to fix and/or maintain. There will be a rage storm from all the PvP players who left the game but hoping to return when Cryptic finally decides to take it seriously. Discussion of PvP being brought back will be added to the FCT list, and that will be that.
If I am wrong, then fantastic. But based on their track record, first they neglect something long enough for it to degrade into an unfixable mess, and then they remove it.
Exploration... Foundry... The in-game calendar... All went neglected, unfixed and finally removed. I cannot se PvP faring any better.
We have to remember here, PvP was Gozer's addition to the game, he coded it. He left Cryptic back in the 2013-14 range after Geko's rant about hating PvP when his personally designed ship, the Excelsior, failed horribly at PvP. There were two other developers that were brought in to work on PvP. Again, Gozer's brainchild, and he didn't leave any documentation on his coding. They following two developers didn't stay with Cryptic long, and like Gozer, left under amicable conditions.
The Competitive maps were Cryptic's way of trying to revitalize PvP, and, well, as we know, they failed horribly.
It still amazes me that PvP is still in the game, especially after the exodus of players at Delta Rising. Which took a good chunk of the PvP player out of the game.
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,595Community Moderator
I don't know if they can though. Or even should try considering how integrated it is into the base code. Honestly... in this case better to just leave it as it is.
So when I PvPed, it started off with Cannon Rapid Fire III and Torp III. That was ripping ships apart unless they had excellent shield healing abilities, and even then it took everything they had to keep their shields up and they had to be quick to respond...any hesitation and their ship went boom. However, ANYONE could pull it off. None of the tactics or play-styles had anything to do with special ships or special BOFs.
I had a Tank ship in those days that could take it....I built the Tank ship in response to the outcry on the forums in those days against Rapid Fire III. It was tested with one of the best PvPers in the game, verses my Tank build that I built to see if it was truly that OP, or if it was the lack of skill/knowledge of the players entering in to PvP. We made a video of the test, posted it and time and again, test after test, no matter how hard he tried, he could not bring down my ship. Nor, could I take down his bird of Prey or his tactical fed ship.
None of that mattered, the Developers nerfed Cannon Rapid Fire III anyway and made it pretty much useless.
So the response we had, was to switch to Beams instead of Cannons. Now, instead of Cannon Rapid Fire III, we started using Beam Overload III. It was not quite as powerful, but it had a quicker response time required for ships to stay alive under the payload being dealt to them. Smaller ships with lesser shields would sometimes go boom instantly with lucky critts.
The outcry on the forums once against commenced and once against Beam Overload III was tested against my Tank ship. It survived the onslaught and continued on. We found that using Tactical Team I was enough to counter Beam Overload III. It was always easy to tell when they were about to open fire because you could hear all of the tactical buffs initiating, which gave me an easy way to time Tactical Team I and prevent them from instantly dropping my shields with lucky critts. and again, no matter how hard he tried, he could not take down my ship.
Once again, Devs nerfed it and made it close to useless in PvP.
After that nerf, me and another PvPer wondered what would happen if we used Beam Fire at Will III and if we could manage to focus that on a single target rather than multiple targets. We found that it ripped through shields and hull like paper. So we started using that.
Again, we tested this against my Tank...and found that my Tank had to struggle to stay alive against it. Proving once again before anyone had a chance to complain on the forums that a ship if built right could still survive through it one on one.
Sure enough, the outcry on the forums came and the ability was nerfed anyway.
After the ability was nerfed, I decided to start playing my Tank ship full time at which point then people were coming to the forums making claims that I was hacking because my ship was unkillable. Before, it only took 2 tactical ships to destroy my Tank ship, but since all the nerfs, my Tank ship was recorded by somebody frustrated at me, showing 5 tactical ships trying to bring down my Tank ship and none of them were having any luck.
It took team work to bring down my Tank Ship...and most of all, it took a Science ship that knew how to build for PvP to roll with them.
In team situations, it felt pretty well balanced. Ships would heal their team mates, focus fire was required to bring down other ships and when playing against other players who were known for being good in PvP, it felt balanced. It felt balanced even before the very first nerf in PvP to Rapid Fire III.
It was not until after Beam Fire at Will III was nerfed until PvP started feeling the first indication of unbalance. At this point I gave up on trying to figure out the next best thing right around the same time that Cloaking graphics were nerfed. At that point, I knew, it was time to move on from this game because it got tiring trying to constantly figure out the next best thing just for the Devs to turn right around and nerf it. So with this, along with the Cloaking graphics nerf, I decided to retire my ship and moved on to a different game.
I wish honestly that I could go back in time before the first nerfs and play again, that was some of the best and fun PvP I have had in any game, second only to SWTOR in its early days. Sadly, I will have to agree with the rest of you that PvP in this game's current state is not worth the time or effort.
I am however amazed at how powerful they made these consoles after they went through all that trouble to nerf Rapid Fire, Beam Overload and Fire at Will. I honestly have to scratch my head on that one, lol.
I don't know if they can though. Or even should try considering how integrated it is into the base code. Honestly... in this case better to just leave it as it is.
Don't get me wrong. I don't WANT them to remove PvP. I don't WANT them to remove any aspect of the game that people enjoy. But their neglect of PvP is consistent with their neglect of every other thing they've removed. And they can remove it without touching the code base. All they have to do is remove access to the maps in which PVP takes place. The code would remain intact, but nothing would be referencing it.
You know they built an entire Rep system based around PvP right?
I just had an idea for a community based PvP event.
Mirror Universe Battle T5.
Rules:
T5 Mirror Ships
Green quality weapons/gear Mk XII
stock BOff abilities and traits
Only real variable then would be Spec Trees.
By limiting to T5 ships we remove Specialist seating and also make it more accessable. By making it MIRROR ships, it not only makes those mirror ships a bit more valuable, but puts pretty much everyone on an even playing field of accessability. Limiting the quality of the gear means you don't have someone coming in with a fully gold plated ship with a min/maxed build and rep gear.
If it works, a second event could expand to include other T5 "booby Prize" ships.
The goal is to level the playing field as much as possible, while still giving players some flexability to set up builds.
I may not be a PvPer, but it would make an interesting concept and also bring some new life into those old booby prize ships. Especially KDF side as KDF doesn't have as many customization options, and they do have at least 3 ships that CAN use Mirror skins at T6.
That's basically the Vanilla PvP ruleset. It worked for us for a couple months, and we had some fun. Here's where VPvP last was (the rules had been relaxed over time as we determined what was reasonable):
I have started a channel called VPvP for the vanilla PvP idea I suggested. It is for forming PvP with basic ships and gear in a fun and balanced environment. We are also trying to get a ground section started.
We can have any kind of games we want, like a classic T5 deathmatch (the usual format), or first guy to evasive out of 15km forfeits, or T2s vs the T5, etc. PM me or another admin with your in-game handle for an invite.
Note: The views and opinions of these folks do not necessarily represent those of VPvP as a whole, except for those explicitly stated by me (Voporak) to represent VPvP.
Current member count: 110
The rules are as follows (see bottom of rules for ground):
Space
Ships
Ship tier depends on whatever match we want to do - could be T2, 3, 4, or basic 5 (free leveling ships and mirror. Nothing from fleet shipyards, such as the Odyssey)
The channel standard is plain T5/mirror (9-console non-Cstore in other words) unless otherwise agreed upon by match participants
Just in case you didn't get that, only free Rear Admial ships from leveling up and mirror ships are allowed, except for the few C-Store exceptions
no Obelisk
no Dyson ships from the anniversary event
And let me make this abundantly clear: Please do not ask for a particular C-Store ship to be allowed, because we are only allowing certain ones in after specific consideration.
In other words, I'm not interested in whatever justification or argument for a C-store ship, because said justification will not be taken into consideration.
See bottom of rules for full list of ships
Equipment
Equipment up to Mk XI blue is allowed (Mk XI blue is equivalent to Mk X purple). One-off Mk XI purple items from missions like Hargh'Peng are allowed (fun fact, Hargh'Peng used to be blue quality)
Storyline sets (Breen, Jem'hadar) are banned. This includes stuff like the Obelisk warp core, but does not include one-off pieces like the Paratrinic shield array
no preorder items allowed (Red matter capacitor for example)
If [Borg] weapons ever existed as Mk X and someone has them, they are allowed
no Reman shield from the story mission
no quad cannons
no universal consoles
no omni beams
no Nimbus pirates
no Jevonite hardpoints
no Scorpion fighters from the Vault mission
no Devidian phase modulator
no deuterium
no Breen cluster torp
no tractor mines
Carrier pets: See ship list
batteries are okay
Bridge officers
No boffs with the rare Veteran trait
Limit 1 Human boff per ship and 1 Nausicaan boff per ship, OR 1 Hierarchy boff per ship (they have efficient and pirate)
No boffs with Superior Subterfuge, Infiltrator or Operative allowed
Saurians with Efficient are allowed
General
no starship traits
Romulans allowed
no using warp core/singularity active powers
no Romulans using fleet support as the NPC can use tractor mines
no rep passives/actives
no traits - this means all must be unslotted
no doffs
no items with special crafted traits
no fleet items
no reputation items
no C-store items (ships are not items; see ship section)
nothing that comes out of lockbox at all (except mirror ships)
nothing from the lobi store at all
be courteous
be honorable
Most recent rule changes
The Gateway thing is needed so that we can check ship gear before matches. This system relies on honor, and unfortunately there are some people who are not honorable. If anyone is caught intentionally breaking these rules (we will be able to tell if it's intentional. If you're all strapped up with clicky consoles and stuff we would see during a fight, you probably just forgot to swap your stuff), you get a first warning and a kick from the channel a second time.
There is one INDIRECT PvP that I do like. Twin Tribulations. Its basically two teams of 5 racing to the finish. Its more of a mechanics race than anything. Whoever can do the mechanics in the chambers faster wins. Core Assault is similar, but with direct PvP at the end.
Yeah - although it does need to be said that, whilst I have no recent experience of it, I used to find PvP players/teams queueing for Core Assault and it seemed pretty clear they only did so to vape the oposing PuG team.
PVP has gone the way of the dinosaur in this game. Only place you will get a good fight is in the Ker'rat System. It has gone from who can muster the highest DPS to science abilities now.
Ker'rat is a mixed blessing too. Last time I was there, fairly recently, there was this total idiot in the instance. I won't name his @handle but his username contained the words "Unkillable Warmaster". And he was a nightmare! If he was killed he logged right before his ship exploded and the claimed that it "didn't count" beause his ship didn't actually explode. He also blamed his performance on lag and if was beaten too quickly accused the player of "freeze hacking his internet".
Mind you, I've met other players who've encountered this person and they've said he's even WORSE in Ground PvP.
He is WORSE in ground. He pulled out of a 2v2 after being the 8th kill and left his team mate to fight 2v1 for the rest of the 30. As for 'Unkillable' He renamed himself again after losing a single round of a 5 round ground to Elektra.
PVP has its dedicated players, like the Ker'rat crowd and some of the Risa Regulars, then you have the 'alleged' elite PVP kings claiming to have never lost yet rage quit after losing a single round with 29 rounds to go. There should be some kind of penalty for rage quitting PVP matches.
This used to be the absolute best PVP that I've ever seen in a game, before the dark time, before F2P. You could build a tank ship but all that changed when they started selling power. I left the game shortly thereafter.
Last time I logged in, I didn't remember how to move the ship but I had over 30K zen from the sub I made. lol
Comments
Romulan Characters cannot select Federation or KDF Mirror Ships from the T5 Selection Box and cannot open or use the individual T5 Federation or KDF Mirror Ship Boxes.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
That's essentially the old Vanilla PvP ruleset (I'll see if I can dig up the original post). It did work rather well.
Edit: Here it is.
I personally ignore its existence, even with the endeavor system. It hasn't been supported since 2013.
We have to remember here, PvP was Gozer's addition to the game, he coded it. He left Cryptic back in the 2013-14 range after Geko's rant about hating PvP when his personally designed ship, the Excelsior, failed horribly at PvP. There were two other developers that were brought in to work on PvP. Again, Gozer's brainchild, and he didn't leave any documentation on his coding. They following two developers didn't stay with Cryptic long, and like Gozer, left under amicable conditions.
The Competitive maps were Cryptic's way of trying to revitalize PvP, and, well, as we know, they failed horribly.
It still amazes me that PvP is still in the game, especially after the exodus of players at Delta Rising. Which took a good chunk of the PvP player out of the game.
I had a Tank ship in those days that could take it....I built the Tank ship in response to the outcry on the forums in those days against Rapid Fire III. It was tested with one of the best PvPers in the game, verses my Tank build that I built to see if it was truly that OP, or if it was the lack of skill/knowledge of the players entering in to PvP. We made a video of the test, posted it and time and again, test after test, no matter how hard he tried, he could not bring down my ship. Nor, could I take down his bird of Prey or his tactical fed ship.
None of that mattered, the Developers nerfed Cannon Rapid Fire III anyway and made it pretty much useless.
So the response we had, was to switch to Beams instead of Cannons. Now, instead of Cannon Rapid Fire III, we started using Beam Overload III. It was not quite as powerful, but it had a quicker response time required for ships to stay alive under the payload being dealt to them. Smaller ships with lesser shields would sometimes go boom instantly with lucky critts.
The outcry on the forums once against commenced and once against Beam Overload III was tested against my Tank ship. It survived the onslaught and continued on. We found that using Tactical Team I was enough to counter Beam Overload III. It was always easy to tell when they were about to open fire because you could hear all of the tactical buffs initiating, which gave me an easy way to time Tactical Team I and prevent them from instantly dropping my shields with lucky critts. and again, no matter how hard he tried, he could not take down my ship.
Once again, Devs nerfed it and made it close to useless in PvP.
After that nerf, me and another PvPer wondered what would happen if we used Beam Fire at Will III and if we could manage to focus that on a single target rather than multiple targets. We found that it ripped through shields and hull like paper. So we started using that.
Again, we tested this against my Tank...and found that my Tank had to struggle to stay alive against it. Proving once again before anyone had a chance to complain on the forums that a ship if built right could still survive through it one on one.
Sure enough, the outcry on the forums came and the ability was nerfed anyway.
After the ability was nerfed, I decided to start playing my Tank ship full time at which point then people were coming to the forums making claims that I was hacking because my ship was unkillable. Before, it only took 2 tactical ships to destroy my Tank ship, but since all the nerfs, my Tank ship was recorded by somebody frustrated at me, showing 5 tactical ships trying to bring down my Tank ship and none of them were having any luck.
It took team work to bring down my Tank Ship...and most of all, it took a Science ship that knew how to build for PvP to roll with them.
In team situations, it felt pretty well balanced. Ships would heal their team mates, focus fire was required to bring down other ships and when playing against other players who were known for being good in PvP, it felt balanced. It felt balanced even before the very first nerf in PvP to Rapid Fire III.
It was not until after Beam Fire at Will III was nerfed until PvP started feeling the first indication of unbalance. At this point I gave up on trying to figure out the next best thing right around the same time that Cloaking graphics were nerfed. At that point, I knew, it was time to move on from this game because it got tiring trying to constantly figure out the next best thing just for the Devs to turn right around and nerf it. So with this, along with the Cloaking graphics nerf, I decided to retire my ship and moved on to a different game.
I wish honestly that I could go back in time before the first nerfs and play again, that was some of the best and fun PvP I have had in any game, second only to SWTOR in its early days. Sadly, I will have to agree with the rest of you that PvP in this game's current state is not worth the time or effort.
I am however amazed at how powerful they made these consoles after they went through all that trouble to nerf Rapid Fire, Beam Overload and Fire at Will. I honestly have to scratch my head on that one, lol.
My character Tsin'xing
That's basically the Vanilla PvP ruleset. It worked for us for a couple months, and we had some fun. Here's where VPvP last was (the rules had been relaxed over time as we determined what was reasonable):
He is WORSE in ground. He pulled out of a 2v2 after being the 8th kill and left his team mate to fight 2v1 for the rest of the 30. As for 'Unkillable' He renamed himself again after losing a single round of a 5 round ground to Elektra.
Last time I logged in, I didn't remember how to move the ship but I had over 30K zen from the sub I made. lol