What is the point of this nonsense? People don't need to finish a game to play it, and certainly not to make alts.
There are lots of games I have never finished but played them a lot. In some games that final stretch isn't all that compelling and I'm not really driven to finish the game but I want to play another character to enjoy the experience differently. I don't think I ever finish a lot of RPGs I've played, instead I make a new character to play through with a different playstyle.
STO and MMORPGs in general can't actually be finished, and even if you go and expect a player to finish all the story to call it "finished" well then again, I also haven't finished STO, as there are a few episodes I've never played at all, yet I still have 10+ characters and have been playing since launch.
Now how many people play like I do? Who knows, but I can safely say that completion isn't relevant, and doesn't give any indication towards having alts.
Good question! I think it's that forum members bring in the argumentation that 80% of people who buy games of any genre never finish them in order to underline why Crytic has chosen this most annoying way of ship trait unlocks for us in STO.
In any case it is fascinating why anybody (especialy no stakeholder) would even feel the need to justify it. Whatever, super fun to read so please continue. I'm sure we can reach a new low in the STO forum absurdity limbo here before the thread discontinues.
Post edited by peterconnorfirst on
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Sliding back towards the issue, stats and gaming culture aside. Even if there is a vast majority or a visible minority (I hope this is visible) who want to Alt, they shouldn't be penalized for doing such.
You want to play our game MORE then everyone else? Okay we'll increase your "funload" (workload) by a order of magnitude.
That seems like an odd statement. Why would a player who wants to play the game more complain about having more game to play?
It is not players who want to play more that complain about having to play more. It is the people for whom the game is "work" who just want it to be over who complain about that.
Sliding back towards the issue, stats and gaming culture aside. Even if there is a vast majority or a visible minority (I hope this is visible) who want to Alt, they shouldn't be penalized for doing such.
You want to play our game MORE then everyone else? Okay we'll increase your "funload" (workload) by a order of magnitude.
That seems like an odd statement. Why would a player who wants to play the game more complain about having more game to play?
It is not players who want to play more that complain about having to play more. It is the people for whom the game is "work" who just want it to be over who complain about that.
I personally don't find it fun to have to fly a ship that my character doesn't have the equipment for, but I have to because I want the trait. Yes, it is work to grind out traits in most cases, to me. Consider I may like that ship perfectly fine, but I fly it as the main ship on one character, but want the trait for a different character. This second character is destined for a different playstyle with a different ship, and that's what I'll be having fun with, not playing a ship I already play to a better degree on another character.
My characters are geared generally towards ship types and weapon types. Phaser beams in a cruiser. Polaron cannons in an escort. It varies widely, but you can easily see that with those themes in mind per character, it lets me focus easily on what to upgrade and what not to upgrade, what reputation equipment to get and not get, what other sets to get or not get, different for each captain, and so much of that is character bound. If I want to play a ship type or weapon type, I already have options for that playstyle, so why would I want to duplicate that?
And lets be clear, the upgrade system, as well as so many character bound items, is definitely a huge part of the frustration here, because you can't necessarily switch equipment and ship types due to what you've spent upgrading stuff for a particular ship.
For example, I have a number of captains that fly escort type ships with mk 15 cannons. Well guess how fun it is to find that I want a trait on a science ship or cruiser and now have to cobble together a mk12 beam build with a lot of space for consoles that I don't use on an escort. I generally can't swap anything from another character, and even if I could, that would prevent me from playing that character until I finished grinding the trait. Then I have to spend a lot of time setting up BOFFS to function at the LTC and Commander level on a ship when normally I'd only care about their LT powers. They aren't going to use those powers again, unless there's another trait to grind on a similar ship.
Such a necessary grind is annoying to say the least, and its more annoying when I already like that ship and play it on another character, and know how well that ship can perform with a proper build instead of the ad hoc one cobbled together just long enough for the trait. I'm of the opinion that after a few times unlocking this trait, it should be unlocked account wide. If I've gone through that frustration so many times, why do I need to continue doing so? As someone else said, it doesn't need to be the full mastery, just the trait.
Why would a player who wants to play the game more complain about having more game to play?
It is not players who want to play more that complain about having to play more. It is the people for whom the game is "work" who just want it to be over who complain about that.
That's actually a warp of the intent of the statement... I want to build new ships, explore new builds, try content with different ships, Replay stories with different characters. Which is all within the exact scope of what STO intends. Literally their entire design is based on those concepts.
I already "worked" to get those traits, and ships, equiptment, credits and trained up to get my manuels and materials for crafting... All of that is transferable between characters to ease the creation of new alts... EXCEPT traits. (and reputation - At least reputation I can set for less than a minute of gameplay and come back the next day) But traits are so many hours which acts as a barrier to testing new builds, or trying content out with a fully developed concept.
WE can all agree to disagree about what there is to do in STO, but the honest truth will always be, it's about building your ships. Making a build and trying it out. IF the making it takes forever, when does the trying it out occur?
But I agree it is a lot of work. What we are looking at doing is something more like the Rep Sponsorship. That is, if you complete starship mastery in, say, the Galaxy Cruiser, all your alts could get a significant increase in progressing through starship mastery in a Galaxy Cruiser.
We still have a lot of investigating to do, but I could see this happening.
Al "Captain Geko" Rivera
Found this quote by the lead developer in 2014, Acknowledging at least minorly that it is "A lot of work", That was 5 years and probably over 200 ships with new traits to unlock, ago. And we haven't even seen this idea yet.
I'm not a programmer but I can't see it being more difficult data wise than unlocking a BUTT ton of Romulus ships for all factions. or an increase of (~5) new character slots all with their own independent data.
(Interesting side note, very very few developer posts in the last 4 years)
Skeleton staff, they can't fix the bugs in the game as it is without risking adding more. Possibly the release of a ship to a specific faction is indeed a simple checkbox on a spreadsheet and what some are asking for here may be significantly more difficult, or like the foundry, the person who introduced the mastery system has long since departed and "nobody knows how to do it". Who knows, but clearly I doubt this forum thread will even be viewed by a Dev let alone responded to, better to post it on Reddit.
Is reddit really that much more effective than their own forums? That seems counter-intuitive. If this statement were to be true that is very disheartening that a game literally can fall into a form of disrepair simply due to a absence, or most disheartening if Devs aren't even checking their own forums to see what people have greatest issue with. Just on a short scour I have seen at least 8 different posts about this all with a furious revel of activity before it dies down to a new major issue... Anyone aware of a reddit they know the devs monitor?
They didn't forsee anyone having 5 alts and wanting to unlock multiple masteries?
Most MMO players in general tend to simply have one main, and rarely, if ever, make alts.
Altaholics who create 5+ alts are in the extreme minority, so game devs rarely, if ever, design things in their favor.
^^^
Yeah no.
People with one single character are in the minority in most MMOs (and I'm talking about those that find something they like and play past the first month or so.) Hell, if they like an MMO a lot many make a character of each class. Played with 5 large Guilds across most MMOs since EQ in 1999 - an I was usually the person with the least amount of Alts in any game (I averaged 3) until there were MMOs in genres I liked, such as CoH, CoV, CO, STO (yeah I wasn't much for 'High Fantasy' MMOs like EQ or WoW - but most of my in game friends were. most had 5+ characters in a game minimum.)
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Skeleton staff, they can't fix the bugs in the game as it is without risking adding more. Possibly the release of a ship to a specific faction is indeed a simple checkbox on a spreadsheet and what some are asking for here may be significantly more difficult, or like the foundry, the person who introduced the mastery system has long since departed and "nobody knows how to do it". Who knows, but clearly I doubt this forum thread will even be viewed by a Dev let alone responded to, better to post it on Reddit.
Is reddit really that much more effective than their own forums? That seems counter-intuitive. If this statement were to be true that is very disheartening that a game literally can fall into a form of disrepair simply due to a absence, or most disheartening if Devs aren't even checking their own forums to see what people have greatest issue with. Just on a short scour I have seen at least 8 different posts about this all with a furious revel of activity before it dies down to a new major issue... Anyone aware of a reddit they know the devs monitor?
Sigh.
The devs do read the forums, quite a bit actually. Just because they dont respond doesnt mean they arent listening. Sometimes they let feedback gather, then take it back internally to discuss and think it out. Additionally, some feedback takes time for the devs to answer to. Cause they want a plan of action or at least official direction they are considering before responding to the playerbase.
The devs have more than learned that knee jerk reactions to a small section of the community providing feedback has blown up in their faces. Additionally they have also learnt in Kael's words "We do not discuss upcoming content" until they are ready to, Since plans change.
More than a few times (especially in the first couple of years) the devs would respond to player feedback or suggestions with "We are thinking about it" or "We would like to do X". They dont do it, for multiple of reasons and alot of players come out and call them liars. When they never said exactly "We WILL do X".
They are listening, they are observing and taking your feedback.
They didn't forsee anyone having 5 alts and wanting to unlock multiple masteries?
Most MMO players in general tend to simply have one main, and rarely, if ever, make alts.
Altaholics who create 5+ alts are in the extreme minority, so game devs rarely, if ever, design things in their favor.
^^^
Yeah no.
People with one single character are in the minority in most MMOs (and I'm talking about those that find something they like and play past the first month or so.) Hell, if they like an MMO a lot many make a character of each class. Played with 5 large Guilds across most MMOs since EQ in 1999 - an I was usually the person with the least amount of Alts in any game (I averaged 3) until there were MMOs in genres I liked, such as CoH, CoV, CO, STO (yeah I wasn't much for 'High Fantasy' MMOs like EQ or WoW - but most of my in game friends were. most had 5+ characters in a game minimum.)
I have no idea what the alt numbers are for STO players who continue to play the game vs. creating their first Federation character then leaving, which skews Cryptic's infographics.
I do agree that creating some alts is common and expected for players that keep playing a game.
Most online games I've played spent the development time to create a cross-character shared bank, and many F2P ones monetize it by selling expansions. Both would be pointless if almost no on created alts. Many single-player and co-op games do it too, especially action RPGs and also loot shooters like Borderlans 1-2. BL2 even wrote a silly quest with voice acting for it (Claptrap's secret stash).
SWTOR has (had?) achievements that require cross-class activities by your alts. Also pointless if everyone was just creating one Jedi, Sith, or Smuggler.
The devs do read the forums, quite a bit actually. Just because they dont respond doesnt mean they arent listening. Sometimes they let feedback gather, then take it back internally to discuss and think it out. Additionally, some feedback takes time for the devs to answer to. Cause they want a plan of action or at least official direction they are considering before responding to the playerbase.
The devs have more than learned that knee jerk reactions to a small section of the community providing feedback has blown up in their faces. Additionally they have also learnt in Kael's words "We do not discuss upcoming content" until they are ready to, Since plans change.
More than a few times (especially in the first couple of years) the devs would respond to player feedback or suggestions with "We are thinking about it" or "We would like to do X". They dont do it, for multiple of reasons and alot of players come out and call them liars. When they never said exactly "We WILL do X".
They are listening, they are observing and taking your feedback.
That is comforting, I almost never post on forums so I appreciate the education (No sarcasm) Cause I'd rather stay on point with this thread. The unfortunate position is though that I think the point is made. And I've yet to encounter an oppositional position that isn't rooted in "I don't care" and "don't complain" and the far more nefarious "immersivly it makes sense" which if I wanted to experience all the disappointments of real life I'd stop playing games all together.
I'm very interested in creative ideas, but other than - making them account wide or a mastery system, or make an EASY way to level our mastery on all our BOUGHT ships. I don't see much other way they could go other than 'ignore the problem' and I think it is a valid problem
Well tonight I had to kill 30 Tzen'kethi Ships for the Hard Endeavor. Killed them and left. Got 7 Ship Mastery. One of the Patrols I did for the Event, 'The Ninth Rule' awarded me some 2300 Specialization XP but only got about 850 Ship Mastery.
The other Discovery Patrol I did, 'Sentinal' awarded about 2300 Specialization XP and gave me that amount of of Ship Mastery.
This thing is all over the place.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
When I finished Argala tonight, I got about 5400 Specialization XP. Over twice what those Discovery Patrols gave.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I got no issues levelling tiers 1-4 for the bonuses as tbh they don't make that much of difference to the ships performance so no urgency in maxing those out, but the trait really should come as a unlock as its part of the selling point of the ship, like the console, Boff seating, weapon Layout and console slots.
Hello rubber banding my old friend, time to bounce around the battlezone again, where are all my bug reports going?, out of love with this game I am falling, As Cryptic fail to acknowledge a problem exists, Shakes an angry fist, And from Support all I'm hearing are the sounds of silence.
I got no issues levelling tiers 1-4 for the bonuses as tbh they don't make that much of difference to the ships performance so no urgency in maxing those out, but the trait really should come as a unlock as its part of the selling point of the ship, like the console, Boff seating, weapon Layout and console slots.
Oh I agree. I don’t know how many traits I have unlocked on my 12 chars the past years. Never even once a ship encouraged me to stick on it longer than I had to while I did.
The whole concept of it is faulty. Traits could easily unlock with the ship right away or could be adjusted to unlock at lvl.1 of the system instead of lvl. 5 or 6 as somebody suggested a few months back. Would be cool as well.
The argumentation of cryptic cheerleaders and justice league representatives around here underlining how this all makes sense the way it is is a big laugh. I mean they can fly whatever ship they want for however long they like independent of any masteries. Fun is also that every time they start to bring their arguments they later turn out to have no stakes in the whole thing at all as they only have a toon or two and don’t collect masteries that “much” anyway. They never buy ships for a trait but like things the way it is, yea.
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I got no issues levelling tiers 1-4 for the bonuses as tbh they don't make that much of difference to the ships performance so no urgency in maxing those out, but the trait really should come as a unlock as its part of the selling point of the ship, like the console, Boff seating, weapon Layout and console slots.
Oh I agree. I don’t know how many traits I have unlocked on my 12 chars the past years. Never even once a ship encouraged me to stick on it longer than I had to while I did.
The whole concept of it is faulty. Traits could easily unlock with the ship right away or could be adjusted to unlock at lvl.1 of the system instead of lvl. 5 or 6 as somebody suggested a few months back. Would be cool as well.
The argumentation of cryptic cheerleaders and justice league representatives around here underlining how this all makes sense the way it is is a big laugh. I mean they can fly whatever ship they want for however long they like independent of any masteries. Fun is also that every time they start to bring their arguments they later turn out to have no stakes in the whole thing at all as they only have a toon or two and don’t collect masteries that “much” anyway. They never buy ships for a trait but like things the way it is, yea.
Agreed, the system sucks and the only people advocating for it are the people that aren't effected by it.
Tying traits to Ship Mastery is ridiculous, tedious, and should be done away with immediately.
And with the recent proclivity to release non-Fleet grade ships to the C-Store pretty much exclusively, you end up having to Mastery up the 'same' Ship to T4 twice (if you want Fleet grade). I'm sure that plopping in that extra console and armor to the Hull makes the thing fly very different from its C-Store brother.
Just look at the Lobi/Lockbox Ships that had Faction specific releases. You get to buy the Trait/Console for your Character's non-Factions. The Trait is immediately availible to use. Pretty much indicates that the Trait should unlock immediately on use of the Ship.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Is it absolutely necessary to be insulting towards people, who may happen to agree with or advocate for Cryptic, by use of name calling? Cheerleader, white knight, shill, dev sock puppet, now justice league representative? They're all derogatory in their use, and do nothing to contribute positively to any forum dialogue. The same goes for those on the opposite side, who would use equally disparaging terms, or those who call others trolls for simply disagreeing with their opinions.
I'm sorry, not only is such behavior against forum rules due it's flaming/trolling nature, but in my book, you automatically lose the debate, because you've reduced yourself and your argument by attacking your opponent instead of the idea.
Please, let's refrain from the name calling and the insults and attacking one another. I promise you, it'll raise the level of your debates even when disagreeing, as well as help promote a more friendly, less hostile forum environment where everyone can feel welcome to participate. Thank you.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
Tying traits to Ship Mastery is ridiculous, tedious, and should be done away with immediately.
Agreed. I like the ship trait system, because it makes the "construction" of new builds more fun. Sometimes it's frustrating, because you see a trait that, on paper, would do wonders for what you're working on... but then you unlock it and you try it out and realize that, for whatever reason, it may works well but not for you on that particular toon flying that particular ship.
That said, there are some traits that I use on a good number of characters, 90% coming from C-Store ships.
Now, when we buy ships we buy the trait, too - whether you buy the ship ONLY for the trait or not, it's irrelevant to this discussion - so why "lock" the trait behind another wall?
If they really don't want to give us account-wide unlocks for "free", why not make it go faster once you've unlocked the trait for the first time? Why not give it a boost, so that it takes half the time?
@baddmoonrizin You said that an account-wide unlock would reduce in-game time. You might be right, but couldn't that very same argument be made for the (now old) change from per character unlock to account-wide for the seasonal events ships?
Or for the new event system? Even the old one was account-wide, at least for the big reward.
But since some people seems to be really opposed to the idea, make it like the sponsorship tokens: you gain the ability, if you so choose, to "buy" a sponsorship. Payment could be expertise, energy credits (iirc, it was Borticus who, a few months back, asked for ways to create energy credit sinks, and this could be part of it) or even some dilithium. I wouldn't pay Zen for it because we already paid for the ship in the first place, (unless of course it's one of the free ones that we can get from events).
This way, everyone would be happy(ier): those that doesn't think the system should be changed, and those that feels it's a pain.
Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
Payment could be expertise, energy credits (iirc, it was Borticus who, a few months back, asked for ways to create energy credit sinks, and this could be part of it) or even some dilithium.
This way, everyone would be happy(ier): those that doesn't think the system should be changed, and those that feels it's a pain.
Hm… I have payed worse to skip activities in STO I don’t like and making it a sink is something I could learn to live with here. The idea is really not bad if it would spare me the trouble to regularly tend to this. It’s not as if I would not have enough resources from here to the next ice age on my account.
I’m curious how the (I hope the term is ok) no-stake holder of this idea think of the concept. Would it be ok for you if I pay out of trait unlocks somehow (and perhaps support STO more than I already do) in order not to have to tend to an activity I dislike but which is in the way of my character progression? Or is the latter too big of a problem for you so that you want me to suffer accordingly? Again, no argument has been presented why you even have a stake in this in the first place.
@baddmoonrizin
As a matter of fact I find it very hard to respond in any other way as it is barely tolerable to even read such responses. But yea, it is clearly my mistake for doing either. I apologize to you for disturbing the forum peace with those replies. I'll do better from now on.
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I have to think that I'm not alone in making a real mental/emotional distinction between being forced to stay in game longer to grind a trait, or wanting to stay in the game longer for fun. Personally I resent it when a game expects me to grind more, especially so when I can't reasonably level mastery by just playing the game. This is one of the problems I have with dailies. I like a game more when I can take a break from it and not feel like I have to play catch up or that I've been left behind somehow.
Grinding out the EWC trait from the Aribiter/Kurak/Morrigu for the 10+ time does not make me have more fun. It might be fun if the character's actual ship is similar enough, but if its very different, it usually feels like more of a chore because my equipment isn't right for that ship and it makes it a difficult grind.
Think about flying a cannon equipped raider like T6 B'rel and then you want to get the trait from the Kurak. Now you've got cannons equipped on a slow turning cruiser and since you fly a raider you may entirely pass on a turn console, so you've got to struggle with using what you have on a ship that isn't right for it, or you get a bunch of equipment just to grind through it either poaching from another character which may render them useless for the duration of the grind, or you spend a bunch of EC for some throwaway gear just to get through the grind. You may even need to swap a bunch of personal traits out and hope you remember to swap them back. Is that fun and exciting gameplay? I don't find it so.
Further, consider that the mismatch may be so bad that you can't continue to do content at the difficulty you normally run. Do you like running missions at a lower difficulty, STFs at a lower difficulty, just because you want to grind out the trait? I don't like that, it doesn't make the game more fun.
I mean I've already bought the three pack (of course now apparently you only need the Morrigu) so why is that $50 still requiring such a repetitive grind? How many times of grinding it out should it be before its just an account unlock? Why is that not reasonable with so many other things being account (at least factionwide on the account) unlocks?
And don't get me started on the stupidity of Fleet ships. Now I largely ignore that, but knowing there is a +1 version of a ship I bought with real money is more than annoying, as is the expectation that someone plops out another few bucks to get their ship up to par with everyone else. I sympathize with the double grind, even if no one really cares much about mastery beyond the trait.
Agreed. I like the ship trait system, because it makes the "construction" of new builds more fun. Sometimes it's frustrating, because you see a trait that, on paper, would do wonders for what you're working on... but then you unlock it and you try it out and realize that, for whatever reason, it may works well but not for you on that particular toon flying that particular ship.
That said, there are some traits that I use on a good number of characters, 90% coming from C-Store ships.
Now, when we buy ships we buy the trait, too - whether you buy the ship ONLY for the trait or not, it's irrelevant to this discussion - so why "lock" the trait behind another wall?
If they really don't want to give us account-wide unlocks for "free", why not make it go faster once you've unlocked the trait for the first time? Why not give it a boost, so that it takes half the time?
Exactly, traits are part of build experimentation and it's really annoying when a build idea for a certain ship hits you and you realize that before you even try it, you have to take one or more ships and level them for traits before you can even try it. There are times when the trait layout is a key part of the build and you simply can't test it's effectiveness without unlocking them first. This really makes the 'trait grind' annoying and on more then one occasion, I have scrapped an idea just because I didn't want to spend the time getting all the traits unlocked.
Hm… I have payed worse to skip activities in STO I don’t like and making it a sink is something I could learn to live with here. The idea is really not bad if it would spare me the trouble to regularly tend to this. It’s not as if I would not have enough resources from here to the next ice age on my account.
While I wouldn't outright object to the idea of a cost to just unlock the trait, I don't like the idea overall. I have already paid 3k Zen for the ship (or the associated lock box cost) is it really necessary to charge me yet again to get the trait unlock?
As far as I am concerned, when I buy the ship, I buy the entire package.. including the trait. I see no reason why I should have to do extra to unlock what I already bought, much less pay more to bypass that pointless extra work.
If they did a system where you unlock the trait once and it unlocks for the account, I could live with that. Most of the suggestions offered in this thread are all better then the current system.
Comments
There are lots of games I have never finished but played them a lot. In some games that final stretch isn't all that compelling and I'm not really driven to finish the game but I want to play another character to enjoy the experience differently. I don't think I ever finish a lot of RPGs I've played, instead I make a new character to play through with a different playstyle.
STO and MMORPGs in general can't actually be finished, and even if you go and expect a player to finish all the story to call it "finished" well then again, I also haven't finished STO, as there are a few episodes I've never played at all, yet I still have 10+ characters and have been playing since launch.
Now how many people play like I do? Who knows, but I can safely say that completion isn't relevant, and doesn't give any indication towards having alts.
Good question! I think it's that forum members bring in the argumentation that 80% of people who buy games of any genre never finish them in order to underline why Crytic has chosen this most annoying way of ship trait unlocks for us in STO.
In any case it is fascinating why anybody (especialy no stakeholder) would even feel the need to justify it. Whatever, super fun to read so please continue. I'm sure we can reach a new low in the STO forum absurdity limbo here before the thread discontinues.
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It is not players who want to play more that complain about having to play more. It is the people for whom the game is "work" who just want it to be over who complain about that.
I personally don't find it fun to have to fly a ship that my character doesn't have the equipment for, but I have to because I want the trait. Yes, it is work to grind out traits in most cases, to me. Consider I may like that ship perfectly fine, but I fly it as the main ship on one character, but want the trait for a different character. This second character is destined for a different playstyle with a different ship, and that's what I'll be having fun with, not playing a ship I already play to a better degree on another character.
My characters are geared generally towards ship types and weapon types. Phaser beams in a cruiser. Polaron cannons in an escort. It varies widely, but you can easily see that with those themes in mind per character, it lets me focus easily on what to upgrade and what not to upgrade, what reputation equipment to get and not get, what other sets to get or not get, different for each captain, and so much of that is character bound. If I want to play a ship type or weapon type, I already have options for that playstyle, so why would I want to duplicate that?
And lets be clear, the upgrade system, as well as so many character bound items, is definitely a huge part of the frustration here, because you can't necessarily switch equipment and ship types due to what you've spent upgrading stuff for a particular ship.
For example, I have a number of captains that fly escort type ships with mk 15 cannons. Well guess how fun it is to find that I want a trait on a science ship or cruiser and now have to cobble together a mk12 beam build with a lot of space for consoles that I don't use on an escort. I generally can't swap anything from another character, and even if I could, that would prevent me from playing that character until I finished grinding the trait. Then I have to spend a lot of time setting up BOFFS to function at the LTC and Commander level on a ship when normally I'd only care about their LT powers. They aren't going to use those powers again, unless there's another trait to grind on a similar ship.
Such a necessary grind is annoying to say the least, and its more annoying when I already like that ship and play it on another character, and know how well that ship can perform with a proper build instead of the ad hoc one cobbled together just long enough for the trait. I'm of the opinion that after a few times unlocking this trait, it should be unlocked account wide. If I've gone through that frustration so many times, why do I need to continue doing so? As someone else said, it doesn't need to be the full mastery, just the trait.
That's actually a warp of the intent of the statement... I want to build new ships, explore new builds, try content with different ships, Replay stories with different characters. Which is all within the exact scope of what STO intends. Literally their entire design is based on those concepts.
I already "worked" to get those traits, and ships, equiptment, credits and trained up to get my manuels and materials for crafting... All of that is transferable between characters to ease the creation of new alts... EXCEPT traits. (and reputation - At least reputation I can set for less than a minute of gameplay and come back the next day) But traits are so many hours which acts as a barrier to testing new builds, or trying content out with a fully developed concept.
WE can all agree to disagree about what there is to do in STO, but the honest truth will always be, it's about building your ships. Making a build and trying it out. IF the making it takes forever, when does the trying it out occur?
Found this quote by the lead developer in 2014, Acknowledging at least minorly that it is "A lot of work", That was 5 years and probably over 200 ships with new traits to unlock, ago. And we haven't even seen this idea yet.
I'm not a programmer but I can't see it being more difficult data wise than unlocking a BUTT ton of Romulus ships for all factions. or an increase of (~5) new character slots all with their own independent data.
(Interesting side note, very very few developer posts in the last 4 years)
Is reddit really that much more effective than their own forums? That seems counter-intuitive. If this statement were to be true that is very disheartening that a game literally can fall into a form of disrepair simply due to a absence, or most disheartening if Devs aren't even checking their own forums to see what people have greatest issue with. Just on a short scour I have seen at least 8 different posts about this all with a furious revel of activity before it dies down to a new major issue... Anyone aware of a reddit they know the devs monitor?
Yeah no.
People with one single character are in the minority in most MMOs (and I'm talking about those that find something they like and play past the first month or so.) Hell, if they like an MMO a lot many make a character of each class. Played with 5 large Guilds across most MMOs since EQ in 1999 - an I was usually the person with the least amount of Alts in any game (I averaged 3) until there were MMOs in genres I liked, such as CoH, CoV, CO, STO (yeah I wasn't much for 'High Fantasy' MMOs like EQ or WoW - but most of my in game friends were. most had 5+ characters in a game minimum.)
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Sigh.
The devs do read the forums, quite a bit actually. Just because they dont respond doesnt mean they arent listening. Sometimes they let feedback gather, then take it back internally to discuss and think it out. Additionally, some feedback takes time for the devs to answer to. Cause they want a plan of action or at least official direction they are considering before responding to the playerbase.
The devs have more than learned that knee jerk reactions to a small section of the community providing feedback has blown up in their faces. Additionally they have also learnt in Kael's words "We do not discuss upcoming content" until they are ready to, Since plans change.
More than a few times (especially in the first couple of years) the devs would respond to player feedback or suggestions with "We are thinking about it" or "We would like to do X". They dont do it, for multiple of reasons and alot of players come out and call them liars. When they never said exactly "We WILL do X".
They are listening, they are observing and taking your feedback.
I have no idea what the alt numbers are for STO players who continue to play the game vs. creating their first Federation character then leaving, which skews Cryptic's infographics.
I do agree that creating some alts is common and expected for players that keep playing a game.
Most online games I've played spent the development time to create a cross-character shared bank, and many F2P ones monetize it by selling expansions. Both would be pointless if almost no on created alts. Many single-player and co-op games do it too, especially action RPGs and also loot shooters like Borderlans 1-2. BL2 even wrote a silly quest with voice acting for it (Claptrap's secret stash).
SWTOR has (had?) achievements that require cross-class activities by your alts. Also pointless if everyone was just creating one Jedi, Sith, or Smuggler.
That is comforting, I almost never post on forums so I appreciate the education (No sarcasm) Cause I'd rather stay on point with this thread. The unfortunate position is though that I think the point is made. And I've yet to encounter an oppositional position that isn't rooted in "I don't care" and "don't complain" and the far more nefarious "immersivly it makes sense" which if I wanted to experience all the disappointments of real life I'd stop playing games all together.
I'm very interested in creative ideas, but other than - making them account wide or a mastery system, or make an EASY way to level our mastery on all our BOUGHT ships. I don't see much other way they could go other than 'ignore the problem' and I think it is a valid problem
The other Discovery Patrol I did, 'Sentinal' awarded about 2300 Specialization XP and gave me that amount of of Ship Mastery.
This thing is all over the place.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Hello rubber banding my old friend, time to bounce around the battlezone again, where are all my bug reports going?, out of love with this game I am falling, As Cryptic fail to acknowledge a problem exists, Shakes an angry fist, And from Support all I'm hearing are the sounds of silence.
Oh I agree. I don’t know how many traits I have unlocked on my 12 chars the past years. Never even once a ship encouraged me to stick on it longer than I had to while I did.
The whole concept of it is faulty. Traits could easily unlock with the ship right away or could be adjusted to unlock at lvl.1 of the system instead of lvl. 5 or 6 as somebody suggested a few months back. Would be cool as well.
The argumentation of cryptic cheerleaders and justice league representatives around here underlining how this all makes sense the way it is is a big laugh. I mean they can fly whatever ship they want for however long they like independent of any masteries. Fun is also that every time they start to bring their arguments they later turn out to have no stakes in the whole thing at all as they only have a toon or two and don’t collect masteries that “much” anyway. They never buy ships for a trait but like things the way it is, yea.
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Agreed, the system sucks and the only people advocating for it are the people that aren't effected by it.
Tying traits to Ship Mastery is ridiculous, tedious, and should be done away with immediately.
Just look at the Lobi/Lockbox Ships that had Faction specific releases. You get to buy the Trait/Console for your Character's non-Factions. The Trait is immediately availible to use. Pretty much indicates that the Trait should unlock immediately on use of the Ship.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I'm sorry, not only is such behavior against forum rules due it's flaming/trolling nature, but in my book, you automatically lose the debate, because you've reduced yourself and your argument by attacking your opponent instead of the idea.
Please, let's refrain from the name calling and the insults and attacking one another. I promise you, it'll raise the level of your debates even when disagreeing, as well as help promote a more friendly, less hostile forum environment where everyone can feel welcome to participate. Thank you.
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Agreed. I like the ship trait system, because it makes the "construction" of new builds more fun. Sometimes it's frustrating, because you see a trait that, on paper, would do wonders for what you're working on... but then you unlock it and you try it out and realize that, for whatever reason, it may works well but not for you on that particular toon flying that particular ship.
That said, there are some traits that I use on a good number of characters, 90% coming from C-Store ships.
Now, when we buy ships we buy the trait, too - whether you buy the ship ONLY for the trait or not, it's irrelevant to this discussion - so why "lock" the trait behind another wall?
If they really don't want to give us account-wide unlocks for "free", why not make it go faster once you've unlocked the trait for the first time? Why not give it a boost, so that it takes half the time?
@baddmoonrizin You said that an account-wide unlock would reduce in-game time. You might be right, but couldn't that very same argument be made for the (now old) change from per character unlock to account-wide for the seasonal events ships?
Or for the new event system? Even the old one was account-wide, at least for the big reward.
But since some people seems to be really opposed to the idea, make it like the sponsorship tokens: you gain the ability, if you so choose, to "buy" a sponsorship. Payment could be expertise, energy credits (iirc, it was Borticus who, a few months back, asked for ways to create energy credit sinks, and this could be part of it) or even some dilithium. I wouldn't pay Zen for it because we already paid for the ship in the first place, (unless of course it's one of the free ones that we can get from events).
This way, everyone would be happy(ier): those that doesn't think the system should be changed, and those that feels it's a pain.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
Hm… I have payed worse to skip activities in STO I don’t like and making it a sink is something I could learn to live with here. The idea is really not bad if it would spare me the trouble to regularly tend to this. It’s not as if I would not have enough resources from here to the next ice age on my account.
I’m curious how the (I hope the term is ok) no-stake holder of this idea think of the concept. Would it be ok for you if I pay out of trait unlocks somehow (and perhaps support STO more than I already do) in order not to have to tend to an activity I dislike but which is in the way of my character progression? Or is the latter too big of a problem for you so that you want me to suffer accordingly? Again, no argument has been presented why you even have a stake in this in the first place.
@baddmoonrizin
As a matter of fact I find it very hard to respond in any other way as it is barely tolerable to even read such responses. But yea, it is clearly my mistake for doing either. I apologize to you for disturbing the forum peace with those replies. I'll do better from now on.
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Grinding out the EWC trait from the Aribiter/Kurak/Morrigu for the 10+ time does not make me have more fun. It might be fun if the character's actual ship is similar enough, but if its very different, it usually feels like more of a chore because my equipment isn't right for that ship and it makes it a difficult grind.
Think about flying a cannon equipped raider like T6 B'rel and then you want to get the trait from the Kurak. Now you've got cannons equipped on a slow turning cruiser and since you fly a raider you may entirely pass on a turn console, so you've got to struggle with using what you have on a ship that isn't right for it, or you get a bunch of equipment just to grind through it either poaching from another character which may render them useless for the duration of the grind, or you spend a bunch of EC for some throwaway gear just to get through the grind. You may even need to swap a bunch of personal traits out and hope you remember to swap them back. Is that fun and exciting gameplay? I don't find it so.
Further, consider that the mismatch may be so bad that you can't continue to do content at the difficulty you normally run. Do you like running missions at a lower difficulty, STFs at a lower difficulty, just because you want to grind out the trait? I don't like that, it doesn't make the game more fun.
I mean I've already bought the three pack (of course now apparently you only need the Morrigu) so why is that $50 still requiring such a repetitive grind? How many times of grinding it out should it be before its just an account unlock? Why is that not reasonable with so many other things being account (at least factionwide on the account) unlocks?
And don't get me started on the stupidity of Fleet ships. Now I largely ignore that, but knowing there is a +1 version of a ship I bought with real money is more than annoying, as is the expectation that someone plops out another few bucks to get their ship up to par with everyone else. I sympathize with the double grind, even if no one really cares much about mastery beyond the trait.
Exactly, traits are part of build experimentation and it's really annoying when a build idea for a certain ship hits you and you realize that before you even try it, you have to take one or more ships and level them for traits before you can even try it. There are times when the trait layout is a key part of the build and you simply can't test it's effectiveness without unlocking them first. This really makes the 'trait grind' annoying and on more then one occasion, I have scrapped an idea just because I didn't want to spend the time getting all the traits unlocked.
While I wouldn't outright object to the idea of a cost to just unlock the trait, I don't like the idea overall. I have already paid 3k Zen for the ship (or the associated lock box cost) is it really necessary to charge me yet again to get the trait unlock?
As far as I am concerned, when I buy the ship, I buy the entire package.. including the trait. I see no reason why I should have to do extra to unlock what I already bought, much less pay more to bypass that pointless extra work.
If they did a system where you unlock the trait once and it unlocks for the account, I could live with that. Most of the suggestions offered in this thread are all better then the current system.