Firstly, no they did not decide they juat didn't want to work on it. They tried for years with foundry breaking constantly. It was removed after determining that it was not feasible financially or in man hours to continue, it was a reluctant decision. You are right on one thing though, it is the same here, they have reluctantly decided to remove a little used feature that most didn't even know about, that costs an inordinate amount to maintain.
The attacks on Cryptic, in violation of forum rules, and calling them liars, also a violation of rules, means I have no respect for those making them, and will be responding in that vein. These atacks and accusations are the very definition of hystrionic TRIBBLE, and I won't pretend otherwise.
I've been a Lifer almost since Day 1. I have never ever been contacted by gold farmers using this LTS feature. I do get several e-mails a week from them however.
Everything I loved in the game (The Foundry, this wonderful LTS feature) is slowly being stripped away and replaced with things I hate (Discovery). When was the last time Lifers got something?
I'm curious. How does one send an in-game email to another player? It requires a character name and an @ handle, correct? Isn't that same character name and @ handle used in in-game chat as well? So, one could then monitor in-game chat, gather character names and @ handles, and then spam in-game emails, yes?
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
I'm curious. How does one send an in-game email to another player? It requires a character name and an @ handle, correct? Isn't that same character name and @ handle used in in-game chat as well? So, one could then monitor in-game chat, gather character names and @ handles, and then spam in-game emails, yes?
you could just monitor ingame chats via other ways. xmpp is not required for that as long someone posts in a chat.
Hmmm. Is the external chat system really the issue though? I haven't seen gold spammers in the chats I am a part of in quite some time. However, I still get in-game mail from gold spammers at least a couple of times a week. Does XMPP have something to do with the in-game mail system?
Hmmm. Is the external chat system really the issue though? I haven't seen gold spammers in the chats I am a part of in quite some time. However, I still get in-game mail from gold spammers at least a couple of times a week. Does XMPP have something to do with the in-game mail system?
I do wonder if its a new bug as there does seem to be an increase in gold spammer emails recently. At least I am getting more now then this time last year. How is everyone else finding it?
Hello rubber banding my old friend, time to bounce around the battlezone again, where are all my bug reports going?, out of love with this game I am falling, As Cryptic fail to acknowledge a problem exists, Shakes an angry fist, And from Support all I'm hearing are the sounds of silence.
Now, bearing in mind I haven't played any meaningful amount in months and don't know from experience if there was some sort of recent issue...
To the best of my recollection, gold spammers in chat haven't been a major inconvenience in years. I haven't seen a 1337speak link in zone in a very long time. All the spam I do get is through in-game mail, which has nothing to do with the chat system.
So, unless there's some unchecked problem in Neverwinter that hasn't quite seeped into STO that the devs are trying to stay ahead of, I'm left agreeing with the folks in here who think that that's just a smokescreen to cover for the fact that you've lost the talent who maintained it and either can't or won't hire replacements.
Again, they could be talking about Gold Spammers in Neverwinter or Champions.
The system is being retired across all their games, not just STO. The original message is a generic copy/paste that is posted on each games forums.
The Gold Spamming issue might not be an issue in STO specifically due to the LTS requirement, but the fact that it's a problem in other titles probably contributed to the decision.
Doesn't matter because they're going to remove it either way and there is basically nothing anyone can do about it.
Again, they could be talking about Gold Spammers in Neverwinter or Champions.
The system is being retired across all their games, not just STO. The original message is a generic copy/paste that is posted on each games forums.
The Gold Spamming issue might not be an issue in STO specifically due to the LTS requirement, but the fact that it's a problem in other titles probably contributed to the decision.
Doesn't matter because they're going to remove it either way and there is basically nothing anyone can do about it.
I'm not sure how active they are on Champions. But I've not played that for a long long time. But the last time I did the community was so very small compared to Neverwinter or Sto. When it comes to Pves and Pvpers I think.The Issue would have to be Neverwinter. As they put into the place more restrictions then Sto or Champions. Like you have to do some questlines On Neverwinter just to unlock the ability to do anything but this only needs to be done once per account. If the Xmpp allowed goldspammers to bypass those restrictions well its understandable why they are shutting it down. But they could have made it so Vip doesn't give access to the Xmpp or remove access to it for Vip and have to have some type of expensive pack from their zen store to access.
You can also get handles of people who have purchased stuff from you on the Exchange. It's in the email.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
If the Xmpp allowed goldspammers to bypass those restrictions well its understandable why they are shutting it down. But they could have made it so Vip doesn't give access to the Xmpp or remove access to it for Vip and have to have some type of expensive pack from their zen store to access.
Agreed, I am sure they could have taken steps to prevent it in other titles similar to how it's handled in STO.
What I take from the message is that there were numerous reasons why the decision was made, the use of the application by gold spammers being one of them. Had it been the only issue, then I assume they would have acted in the manner you illustrated, but my impression is that there were more factors then just this one thing.
Foundry was removed because nobody still at Cryptic knew how to fix it anymore, not because they didn't want to. So much hystrionic TRIBBLE on these forums.
Never used XMPP myself. Sounds like there are 2 issues:
losing something some people, apparently, got great use out of
the seemingly dubious excuse of stopping gold-spammers
While I have no knowledge of XMPP workings; many many posters do seem to think that is just an excuse for Cryptic to save some money or work. When Cryptic said keeping the Foundry up was too much work, I respected the honesty even if I didn't like the end result.
But if they are being dishonest about gold-spammers just to save face, or a few bucks, it's not going to work out well in the long run. We've seen plenty of examples lately where game devs have been shady and get called out on it.
We can disagree with the reason(s) to cut XMPP; but no one likes being lied to. The fastest way to drive players away is if they can't believe anything you say. So I hope that gold-spammers is the legitimate reason.
It's about gold spammers. Y'all can quit with your new conspiracy theories.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
It's about gold spammers. Y'all can quit with your new conspiracy theories.
Yeah I think they might be telling the truth on this since their chat system is basically all connected from CO, Neverwinter and Sto. I hope we can get an update or something about this soon either in a live stream or something explaining the reasons behind this decision. Because I do feel it is related to the Gold spammer problem in Neverwinter and the easy access Players from Neverwinter have compared to those of Co or Sto. People might not realize the fact that it is all interconnected or can't see how bots can even use the system to begin with. But then the bots in Sto and Co are not as bad as those that bot Neverwinter. Neverwinter has a serious problem that is less so then it was with gold seller spam since they put the chat restrictions in place. If the Xmpp is being used to bypass the chat restrictions. Then they could come back in full force.
So I agree that the conspiracy theories about them lying about it isn't true at all because why lie about a feature most players might not even know about?
it has been proven that font is a lot harder to see then a figure... normally a screen reader like JAWS would read me what font you would see. well the way STO is written the screen reader can not cut throw the script. In a irc program for example I can have it read because there is no other script to fight with.. We also have problems with websights that have JAVA script of flash. as far as the text in the game I ignore it. there is no training it to read a font that the box is in beaded in a script. you would have to remove all of the other elements of the game. Cryptic if you are listening an idea would be to come up with a chat client that is removed from the game that is ONLY chat. according to federal law as long as they have ANY chat in game they have to make it friendly to the disabled. (already talked to someone I know at the department of Justice who enforces ADA)
You know, I'm not sure. Are there any games that are screen reader friendly?
Games aren't disability friendly just based on how they're designed.
Due to how they're rendered, most "text" in games are just images which look like text. The chat window could even be emulated to support highlighting and copy/paste, but are still not regular UI controls screen readers can identify.
You could make the case to Cryptic to keep it around for that reason, but suing them will go nowhere. But IANAL.
Your best hope is to disable transparency in the chat window, so at least OCR tools have a consistent background color, then try to train it to read STO's specific font.
It
I just hope this doesn't hurt them to the point where they take out text chat altogether. This is the problem I have with this. I understand needing to make it available. Problem is the coding might have to be changed if its a fundamental part of the game. They could keep the Xmpp but unless thye have plans to change the chat interface to comply. Now if this being removed causes them to break law. Well I think they would be breaking it just by the simple reason of how its pay walled to the extreme making it difficult for those with disabilities to access it. . Plus I'm not sure but if the game was released before the law that was signed by obama which I looked it up I think it was. Not sure what type of legal pull that would have. Since its an older game. If the chat system was released before that law. Not sure if they would have to comply with it for Sto. Unless they do something major. Given they possibly know about the law. There could be ways they can avoid it or maybe they are removing the Xmpp so they can do a chat update to include such provisions. The reason for this I'm guessing such an update would make the chat system more vulnerable. As the code would be more accessible and thus bot spammers would be able to get ahold of it. They'd have to find ways to make it so bots can't bot spam the chats and the systems they put into place.
the ADA was long before obama the law went into effect in 1990 and yes they still have to comply with it and as far as the spam bots getting it bull you have to be a lifetime user and no bot is going to run the risk of their account locked when they have to play lots of money
Removing XMPP is not discriminating against anyone, stop it.
They're not targeting people with disabilities, nor are they discriminating against them. Getting a law degree out of a cereal box doesn't make you a lawyer.
it has been proven that font is a lot harder to see then a figure... normally a screen reader like JAWS would read me what font you would see. well the way STO is written the screen reader can not cut throw the script. In a irc program for example I can have it read because there is no other script to fight with.. We also have problems with websights that have JAVA script of flash. as far as the text in the game I ignore it. there is no training it to read a font that the box is in beaded in a script. you would have to remove all of the other elements of the game. Cryptic if you are listening an idea would be to come up with a chat client that is removed from the game that is ONLY chat. according to federal law as long as they have ANY chat in game they have to make it friendly to the disabled. (already talked to someone I know at the department of Justice who enforces ADA)
You know, I'm not sure. Are there any games that are screen reader friendly?
Games aren't disability friendly just based on how they're designed.
Due to how they're rendered, most "text" in games are just images which look like text. The chat window could even be emulated to support highlighting and copy/paste, but are still not regular UI controls screen readers can identify.
You could make the case to Cryptic to keep it around for that reason, but suing them will go nowhere. But IANAL.
Your best hope is to disable transparency in the chat window, so at least OCR tools have a consistent background color, then try to train it to read STO's specific font.
It
I just hope this doesn't hurt them to the point where they take out text chat altogether. This is the problem I have with this. I understand needing to make it available. Problem is the coding might have to be changed if its a fundamental part of the game. They could keep the Xmpp but unless thye have plans to change the chat interface to comply. Now if this being removed causes them to break law. Well I think they would be breaking it just by the simple reason of how its pay walled to the extreme making it difficult for those with disabilities to access it. . Plus I'm not sure but if the game was released before the law that was signed by obama which I looked it up I think it was. Not sure what type of legal pull that would have. Since its an older game. If the chat system was released before that law. Not sure if they would have to comply with it for Sto. Unless they do something major. Given they possibly know about the law. There could be ways they can avoid it or maybe they are removing the Xmpp so they can do a chat update to include such provisions. The reason for this I'm guessing such an update would make the chat system more vulnerable. As the code would be more accessible and thus bot spammers would be able to get ahold of it. They'd have to find ways to make it so bots can't bot spam the chats and the systems they put into place.
the ADA was long before obama the law went into effect in 1990 and yes they still have to comply with it and as far as the spam bots getting it bull you have to be a lifetime user and no bot is going to run the risk of their account locked when they have to play lots of money
Their chat system basically is one chat system for three mmos. So yes people are right that this isn't an issue in Star Trek Online but they are still wrong in that there isn't a gold spam chat problem even if there isn't one in Star Trek Online does not mean its the case with the other two mmos Since there is in fact three Mmo's tied to one chat system. It has to be an issue in one of the others. Champions Online also uses the same lifetime subscription Model as Star Trek Online its unlikely the Bots are using the xmpp system coming from there.
Since there is three mmos there are three different access points to one chat server. This sadly is a code hard fact. Because of the fact the three mmos games chat system is shared through all. Think of it like a secure room that can be accessed from the outside by key card that is only activated after paying real money or fake money. Normally the room would not have a back entrance but Cryptic's Mmos do and its not just one access door its three back access doors. Two of the Doors cost so much money like 300 in fact to access these doors to the back way door to chat room so only few people use these doors. These are the Star Trek Online and Champions Online Doors.. But now you got one door that costs only ten dollars worth of fake currency aka zen which can be farmed or bought with real money which is 90 Percent cheaper basically that is Neverwinter, The Neverwinter door also leading into the same Xmpp Chat Room. Now if you were a botter which door would you take?
Door number one and number three Co and Sto surely not. You go through the second door which is Neverwinter. And then you have access to the the shared friends list ignore list and custom channels through all their games. The Room itself is basically the chat room for all three mmos. Now the Room itself its hard to mess with since its an internal system with no windows or ability to climb into or break into that easily. Its a closed system. Now you have three door that allows you to access that room without even going into that room. That is Xmpp. And three doors that you can access from within the game to get to the chat room that can be unlocked which is really simple. To access the room normally would require either a waiting period in two of the mmos or buy something with zen then its unlocked for the entire account for sto and Champions. But the third mmo neverwinter is different since it has a zombie problem so they made it a to unlock the chat for new players or accounts a lot harder because of the issue of spam zombies within the zone chats. Can't even use the zen method to unlock chat I think Unlike Sto or CO.
Even with restrictions there is a bypass and its because of the way the system works. If you cannot chat within Star Trek Online since your new to it and have to wait out the restrictions and need to pm someone within Sto you can just pm them by using the neverwinter client and you can talk with them normally even if you to use the other cryptic game to do it. So if you have not accessed the ability to talk in one game you can still talk to a person in that game by using the other game you do have chat access with. So don't need Xmpp to chat with someone can just use another mmo that is another weakness but the Xmpp system allows a major vunerablity to be there.
The reason being that same system the Xmpp that allows you to read the code with a screen reader is also another method botters can use to modify the code maybe not sure the code to program automated pms or bypass the system without much of a hassle I imagine. This could be the reason why they are closing those three doors and bricking them up. Because they don't want a huge zombie problem that can't be contained. And if the botters are using Neverwinter Vip to use the system to help their gold selling spam. Then they would have to remedy that but I think their reasoning might be this it might be hard to rework the code to block access plus anger legit players by cutting it off of vip that they might have just decided its time to retire the system rather then try and remedy the complex code.
So in short "We're removing an LTS perk because of gold spammers who don't use the system?" I'm just trying to understand how gold spammers used LTS perks here...
I'm curious. How does one send an in-game email to another player? It requires a character name and an @ handle, correct? Isn't that same character name and @ handle used in in-game chat as well? So, one could then monitor in-game chat, gather character names and @ handles, and then spam in-game emails, yes?
you could just monitor ingame chats via other ways. xmpp is not required for that as long someone posts in a chat.
As someone pointed out, screen readers don't work with the in-game chat. You don't want to actually look at some chat screen rolling by - you want a computer program to scan the chat logs. Though this example might be red herring - I remember that I could see channels across the game, but I don't remember being able to get, say, Earth Space Dock Zone chat, for example, but I could listen in to the Trible Test Server channel and similar custom channels. But maybe there is a way to also address map-specific chats if you know what you're doing?
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I have to agree with alot of people, I seriously doubt goldspammers are buying LTS to use XMPP. If there's some sort of security exploit that's letting them use it without LTS, maybe try patching that instead?
I don't get this decision. A lot of large fleets and player groups use this functionality.
Then a lot of large fleets and player groups will learn to adapt, just as with any change in any game. It's hardly critical funtionality, no matter what some people will hyperbolically claim.
Comments
I've been a Lifer almost since Day 1. I have never ever been contacted by gold farmers using this LTS feature. I do get several e-mails a week from them however.
Everything I loved in the game (The Foundry, this wonderful LTS feature) is slowly being stripped away and replaced with things I hate (Discovery). When was the last time Lifers got something?
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
Moderation Problems/Issues? Please contact the Community Manager
Terms of Service / Community Rules and Policies / FCT
Facebook / Twitter / Twitch
you could just monitor ingame chats via other ways. xmpp is not required for that as long someone posts in a chat.
ingame: @Felisean
Have a thumbs up for making me chuckle
Hello rubber banding my old friend, time to bounce around the battlezone again, where are all my bug reports going?, out of love with this game I am falling, As Cryptic fail to acknowledge a problem exists, Shakes an angry fist, And from Support all I'm hearing are the sounds of silence.
To the best of my recollection, gold spammers in chat haven't been a major inconvenience in years. I haven't seen a 1337speak link in zone in a very long time. All the spam I do get is through in-game mail, which has nothing to do with the chat system.
So, unless there's some unchecked problem in Neverwinter that hasn't quite seeped into STO that the devs are trying to stay ahead of, I'm left agreeing with the folks in here who think that that's just a smokescreen to cover for the fact that you've lost the talent who maintained it and either can't or won't hire replacements.
I Support Disco | Disco is Love | Disco is Life
The system is being retired across all their games, not just STO. The original message is a generic copy/paste that is posted on each games forums.
The Gold Spamming issue might not be an issue in STO specifically due to the LTS requirement, but the fact that it's a problem in other titles probably contributed to the decision.
Doesn't matter because they're going to remove it either way and there is basically nothing anyone can do about it.
I'm not sure how active they are on Champions. But I've not played that for a long long time. But the last time I did the community was so very small compared to Neverwinter or Sto. When it comes to Pves and Pvpers I think.The Issue would have to be Neverwinter. As they put into the place more restrictions then Sto or Champions. Like you have to do some questlines On Neverwinter just to unlock the ability to do anything but this only needs to be done once per account. If the Xmpp allowed goldspammers to bypass those restrictions well its understandable why they are shutting it down. But they could have made it so Vip doesn't give access to the Xmpp or remove access to it for Vip and have to have some type of expensive pack from their zen store to access.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Agreed, I am sure they could have taken steps to prevent it in other titles similar to how it's handled in STO.
What I take from the message is that there were numerous reasons why the decision was made, the use of the application by gold spammers being one of them. Had it been the only issue, then I assume they would have acted in the manner you illustrated, but my impression is that there were more factors then just this one thing.
It's just the one thing everyone is focused on.
Never used XMPP myself. Sounds like there are 2 issues:
While I have no knowledge of XMPP workings; many many posters do seem to think that is just an excuse for Cryptic to save some money or work. When Cryptic said keeping the Foundry up was too much work, I respected the honesty even if I didn't like the end result.
But if they are being dishonest about gold-spammers just to save face, or a few bucks, it's not going to work out well in the long run. We've seen plenty of examples lately where game devs have been shady and get called out on it.
We can disagree with the reason(s) to cut XMPP; but no one likes being lied to. The fastest way to drive players away is if they can't believe anything you say. So I hope that gold-spammers is the legitimate reason.
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
Moderation Problems/Issues? Please contact the Community Manager
Terms of Service / Community Rules and Policies / FCT
Facebook / Twitter / Twitch
Yeah I think they might be telling the truth on this since their chat system is basically all connected from CO, Neverwinter and Sto. I hope we can get an update or something about this soon either in a live stream or something explaining the reasons behind this decision. Because I do feel it is related to the Gold spammer problem in Neverwinter and the easy access Players from Neverwinter have compared to those of Co or Sto. People might not realize the fact that it is all interconnected or can't see how bots can even use the system to begin with. But then the bots in Sto and Co are not as bad as those that bot Neverwinter. Neverwinter has a serious problem that is less so then it was with gold seller spam since they put the chat restrictions in place. If the Xmpp is being used to bypass the chat restrictions. Then they could come back in full force.
So I agree that the conspiracy theories about them lying about it isn't true at all because why lie about a feature most players might not even know about?
the ADA was long before obama the law went into effect in 1990 and yes they still have to comply with it and as far as the spam bots getting it bull you have to be a lifetime user and no bot is going to run the risk of their account locked when they have to play lots of money
They're not targeting people with disabilities, nor are they discriminating against them. Getting a law degree out of a cereal box doesn't make you a lawyer.
Since there is three mmos there are three different access points to one chat server. This sadly is a code hard fact. Because of the fact the three mmos games chat system is shared through all. Think of it like a secure room that can be accessed from the outside by key card that is only activated after paying real money or fake money. Normally the room would not have a back entrance but Cryptic's Mmos do and its not just one access door its three back access doors. Two of the Doors cost so much money like 300 in fact to access these doors to the back way door to chat room so only few people use these doors. These are the Star Trek Online and Champions Online Doors.. But now you got one door that costs only ten dollars worth of fake currency aka zen which can be farmed or bought with real money which is 90 Percent cheaper basically that is Neverwinter, The Neverwinter door also leading into the same Xmpp Chat Room. Now if you were a botter which door would you take?
Door number one and number three Co and Sto surely not. You go through the second door which is Neverwinter. And then you have access to the the shared friends list ignore list and custom channels through all their games. The Room itself is basically the chat room for all three mmos. Now the Room itself its hard to mess with since its an internal system with no windows or ability to climb into or break into that easily. Its a closed system. Now you have three door that allows you to access that room without even going into that room. That is Xmpp. And three doors that you can access from within the game to get to the chat room that can be unlocked which is really simple. To access the room normally would require either a waiting period in two of the mmos or buy something with zen then its unlocked for the entire account for sto and Champions. But the third mmo neverwinter is different since it has a zombie problem so they made it a to unlock the chat for new players or accounts a lot harder because of the issue of spam zombies within the zone chats. Can't even use the zen method to unlock chat I think Unlike Sto or CO.
Even with restrictions there is a bypass and its because of the way the system works. If you cannot chat within Star Trek Online since your new to it and have to wait out the restrictions and need to pm someone within Sto you can just pm them by using the neverwinter client and you can talk with them normally even if you to use the other cryptic game to do it. So if you have not accessed the ability to talk in one game you can still talk to a person in that game by using the other game you do have chat access with. So don't need Xmpp to chat with someone can just use another mmo that is another weakness but the Xmpp system allows a major vunerablity to be there.
The reason being that same system the Xmpp that allows you to read the code with a screen reader is also another method botters can use to modify the code maybe not sure the code to program automated pms or bypass the system without much of a hassle I imagine. This could be the reason why they are closing those three doors and bricking them up. Because they don't want a huge zombie problem that can't be contained. And if the botters are using Neverwinter Vip to use the system to help their gold selling spam. Then they would have to remedy that but I think their reasoning might be this it might be hard to rework the code to block access plus anger legit players by cutting it off of vip that they might have just decided its time to retire the system rather then try and remedy the complex code.
I just hope it works. If it doesn't, then what is PWE's next step to combat the in-game spam?
As someone pointed out, screen readers don't work with the in-game chat. You don't want to actually look at some chat screen rolling by - you want a computer program to scan the chat logs. Though this example might be red herring - I remember that I could see channels across the game, but I don't remember being able to get, say, Earth Space Dock Zone chat, for example, but I could listen in to the Trible Test Server channel and similar custom channels. But maybe there is a way to also address map-specific chats if you know what you're doing?
Then a lot of large fleets and player groups will learn to adapt, just as with any change in any game. It's hardly critical funtionality, no matter what some people will hyperbolically claim.