Gravity Kills is a better TFO simply because you actually have to DO something,
Your not wrong. I very much like gravity kills. Though I am sad they took away Tzenkethi pool. Punting them into the black hole was a lot of fun.
The borg STFs used to be a lot more fun. It's not their design that is bad, its power creep. Getting the optional on infected ground used to take teamwork, co-ordination and specific tactics. Back in the day my fleetmates and I ran It a whole lot to get the achievement, which wasn't easy and by no means a sure thing. 15 minutes just wasn't long enough to rescue all the ensigns without doing everything perfectly.
Likewise Cure and Khitomer ground required that people knew the mechanics and co-ordinated to bring down shields. Infected space had the 10% rule regarding the popping of generators and if you had someone just parked on probe duty in Khitomer space you were doing it wrong. Emergency power to engines has always been a great ability even before it got its uptime buffed.
Honestly I think the original borg STFs were the best designed of any we have had. The possibility of failure and the need for team play made them a lot more fun. What has ruined them is power creep.
As you know the Borg missions are my absolute favorites and which pulled me into PVE in the first place. This was when you had random rewards, which i liked because it gave you purpose to get that rare items. Very different from now which you just filling in marks into reps, ... Your needed to collaborate to get pass the mission, which was a good thing. Not just about hitting key F.
I used to love playing these maps over and over again.. especially the ground maps because of collaboration needed to pass the tasks. It gave purpose. And because you had to collaborate, you meet new people and create friendships during the missions. Some of these players have become true friends in the game ( and sadly some don't play anymore). I hope they return because I need my borg TFOs back again.
Why do they need to pull it, can't they just let it stay in until they rework the map or whatever?
The old Borg TFOs, Infected, Cure, Khitomer, just remove them from the RTFO system until they can get revamped because they are just awful.
That was clearly one of STO's 'magic moments' for me - playing as a team not for marks or rewards but just for fun on a special holiday evening.
This is exactly what Star Trek Online PvE should be all about,.. somehow this has been lost over the years. Although random queues are all effective and all that,.. you loose the community feel over it. People in such public TFOs very rarely talk,.. because they don't need to.
People are dense. These were removed from the RTFO because they were problematic. They are the first round of revamping of Borg content to 'change the face of the game'. The only ones taken out will be those that will be revamped. Probably brought back as Featured TFOs when done and added back to the RTFO system.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Is it impossible? no. Is it something I think should be inflicted on PUGS? Also NO. It's hard to stress just how much easier it is with the forcefield walkways, like 90% of the deaths don't happen.
The way I see it. If you don't organize a group and just sign up to play with random people, doing random content. Then you are getting exactly what you signed up for.
Did you chose to play with random people? Yes.
Did you chose to play random content? Yes.
Complaining about getting random people and random content after signing up for random people and random content is like complaining about getting pizza after ordering a pizza.
Were you paying attention? I said that yesterday I played it with a premade that knew the map and we failed because we kept having people rubber band while tying to platform.
Yeah, I am going to be temporarily unpopular with some of my buddies.. but I am in favor of Cure Applied being removed.
Not because it's hard.. because it's not.. but because it's just bad.
The map is not fun.. it's too long and boring, and I hate it like poison. I don't mind running it with fleet mates from time to time, but in a PUG it just adds another layer of annoyance that just makes it not worth doing.
I hate this map, I have always hated it.. and I am 100% cool with pulling it from RTFO's. It was pulled because it sucks, and that was a good call.
In the old days before Omega became a rep like it is now, I once DCed and had to relog just as Armek went down. I missed my loot because it took too long to run from the spawn point to the boss loot area. Nowadays loot doesn't work like that and there are multiple respawn points, but it highlights just how long it takes to run the length of that trench on Vorn.
The only thing which i would like to see removed is the Azure Nebula travesty.
While it is less buggy than before one is still dependent on a RNG to complete the optional objectives and the rewards are less than stellar on top of that.
Yeah....the RNG SUCKS! Haven't seen a Scim spawn in forever...barely see anything beyond T'varo after T'varo.
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
They accidently used the special Lockbox Pseudo-RNG routine for Azure instead of the normal Pseudo-RNG.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Yeah, I am going to be temporarily unpopular with some of my buddies.. but I am in favor of Cure Applied being removed.
Not because it's hard.. because it's not.. but because it's just bad.
The map is not fun.. it's too long and boring, and I hate it like poison. I don't mind running it with fleet mates from time to time, but in a PUG it just adds another layer of annoyance that just makes it not worth doing.
I hate this map, I have always hated it.. and I am 100% cool with pulling it from RTFO's. It was pulled because it sucks, and that was a good call.
Hey Sea I would not want to have it any other way. Your honest opinion on topics is more important to me than for you to support just mine.
As for what you said, Cure definitely a longer map for sure and things can get annoying there fast if one tends to it with a team of monkeys. For me there is just too much of a difference to let’s say Days of Doom or Storming the Spire simply because on Cure your actions do matter for a change. Too much terrain to cover? Just bring a motion accelerator and winter boots and the problem is solved. Don’t want to run back for samples? Just pay attention!
On the other maps I brought up there is nothing to contribute to their conclusion. No matter if you end up in it with a group of monkeys or the DPS league admin team. The maps just conclude on their own (ok aside from a single kill or a single transport action). There is nothing to learn, nothing to get better at and you end up getting the best reward/effort ratio out of them if you don’t even try.
Personal preferences towards single maps aside the concept of a PvE game where you just line up in order to wait for timer to elapse is just absurd for me but clearly seems to be the path this game is taking simply because it sits better with its player base.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
The old Borg TFOs, Infected, Cure, Khitomer, just remove them from the RTFO system until they can get revamped because they are just awful.
That was clearly one of STO's 'magic moments' for me - playing as a team not for marks or rewards but just for fun on a special holiday evening.
This is exactly what Star Trek Online PvE should be all about,.. somehow this has been lost over the years. Although random queues are all effective and all that,.. you loose the community feel over it. People in such public TFOs very rarely talk,.. because they don't need to.
Yep I'm afraid so. There is no need to chat over mission details as it does not matter if you are even in front of your computer while tending to them.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
On the other maps I brought up there is nothing to contribute to their conclusion. No matter if you end up in it with a group of monkeys or the DPS league admin team. The maps just conclude on their own (ok aside from a single kill or a single transport action). There is nothing to learn, nothing to get better at and you end up getting the best reward/effort ratio out of them if you don’t even try.
Absolutely.. that is far more annoying. Players should always be able to reduce their time by accomplishing goals, it is the best motivator to make people want to do things. I'll give Cure that, it doesn't have any silly time gates, but I still just overall don't like the mission design.
I am however, curious what caused them to pull it. There are a lot of 'unpopular' missions, this is the first time I have seen them actually pull one though. While I am cool with Cure getting the Axe, it's certainly not something I want to see become a trend.
It's not like they ever made it that they stopped coming through after you closed say 40 rifts or something.
Oh, wait they did, they just refused to end it before the timer expired, so they modified it to just let rifts infinitely spawn until the timer ran out.
They won't bring back Mirror Incursion until they release the new Engineering Science vessels that close rifts AND power up the transmitters at fast speed.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Leave it to you to actually oppose encouraging players to complete objectives. Amazing.
If a computer needs to be TRIBBLE by a specialist, and you have to defend said specialist while they hack the computer, nothing you do should be able to reduce how long it takes to hack said computer below a minimum amount of time. Your ability to DEEPS has no logical tie to how long it takes the other guy to hack the computer.
First, you can take your judgment, and shove it.
I said that players should be able to reduce timers, you're the one that went all Anti DPS. In that scenario you just proposed, what is so wrong with allowing one or two team mates to help with the hack? or find another way to speed up the process?
Or, for a more STO example, in something like Pahvo Dissension, nothing you do should logically reduce how long it takes the crystals to be purified, because nothing you are doing is directly tied to it.
Nothing is tied to it in it's current form, but that doesn't mean a mechanic cannot be introduced to allow the player to help the process along. Just because you lack imagination doesn't mean the Dev team does.
The same is true for something like Mirror Invasion, or any other TFO where you are fighting off waves/hordes of enemies. If the enemy has enough ships to throw waves at you for 5 minutes straight, then they have that many ships. Your DEEPS can only make you kill the ships that have arrived faster, not the ships lightyears away that haven't arrived yet.
Again, your bias comes forward.. and again you can cram it with walnuts.
Armies are never endless in size. If they send 100 ships through and they get wiped out, does it really make sense to say 'well, the first 100 ships died in 2 seconds, lets try sending in another wave of 50?" You could allow portals to be closed and have those objectives based on Engineering or Science related objectives.. and that's just 2 seconds off the top of my head. It's not hard to find ways to let players have an actual effect on the map, you are just opposing it because your inventing a scenario were it's all about DPS.
Making these situations that shouldn't be affected by DEEPS into situations where DEEPS does affect them doesn't motivate people to do thing, it just instills the mentality that DEEPS is the only thing that matters, which is the last thing a game should be doing.
Man, someone is really riled up huh? All I did was suggest that players should be allowed to perform actions to lessen timegates.. something that anyone with even a shred of common sense would advocate.. but here you are using it as a soapbox for your silly 'anti DPS agenda.' It's transparent, it's weak and it's pathetic. No one said a word about wanting to be able to DPS away everything.. that was all you buddy.
On the other maps I brought up there is nothing to contribute to their conclusion. No matter if you end up in it with a group of monkeys or the DPS league admin team. The maps just conclude on their own (ok aside from a single kill or a single transport action). There is nothing to learn, nothing to get better at and you end up getting the best reward/effort ratio out of them if you don’t even try.
Absolutely.. that is far more annoying. Players should always be able to reduce their time by accomplishing goals, it is the best motivator to make people want to do things. I'll give Cure that, it doesn't have any silly time gates, but I still just overall don't like the mission design.
I am however, curious what caused them to pull it. There are a lot of 'unpopular' missions, this is the first time I have seen them actually pull one though. While I am cool with Cure getting the Axe, it's certainly not something I want to see become a trend.
We just wait and hope for the best. I have been so impressed how well we deal with all elite maps by now. We always have something to be good at. And, on an optimistic tone, I think the the Disco maps we used to complete our reps are all somewhat fine mechanic wise. A good compromise between timer, teamwork, DPS and motivation. As for DPS, one just needs it on Elite or otherwise is down to advance or normal we can easily ignore now. We have the DEEPZ and all it takes for those who have it is one single mark weekend to pull all thier chars through that rep, lol. Good Rewards there so easy peasy mate.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
And, on an optimistic tone, I think the the Disco maps we used to complete our reps are all somewhat fine mechanic wise. A good compromise between timer, teamwork, DPS and motivation.
Agreed, the new maps have been a welcomed addition. I have quite enjoyed playing them.
As for DPS, one just needs it on Elite or otherwise is down to advance or normal we can easily ignore now. We have the DEEPZ and all it takes for those who have it is one single mark weekend to pull all thier chars through that rep, lol. Good Rewards there so easy peasy mate.
Absolutely, DPS is only really required in the Elite versions and that's perfectly fine by me. We can have an area to play in pre-made teams that caters to our style, while the Normal and Advanced versions can be enjoyed by all different types of play styles. I see nothing at all wrong with that.
I agree with @seaofsorrows , player actions, by completing objectives, should be able to reduce timers. Using the example of Mirror Invasion, I've long held that powering the station to level 5 should end the timer and trigger the dreadnought spawn. Doing so would encourage players to actually play the map to speed it along rather than AFK waiting out a timer.
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Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
I agree with @seaofsorrows , player actions, by completing objectives, should be able to reduce timers. Using the example of Mirror Invasion, I've long held that powering the station to level 5 should end the timer and trigger the dreadnought spawn. Doing so would encourage players to actually play the map to speed it along rather than AFK waiting out a timer.
If the power stations were able to do that, why wouldn't the design of the TFO be to turn them on to do THAT from the get go, rather then wasting all that time feeding power into the stations other defenses when said defenses wouldn't be needed if they just tried to close the portals from the begining?
The problem with these kinds of suggestions is that you are advocating for what amounts to the complete removal of the objective, since you are invalidating the objective's reason for existence. Why have the objective at all, and not just start at the Dred fight, in that scenario?
As usual, you just totally don't listen.
badmoon's idea gets you to the dread phase by actually DOING something... as opposed to the current system you advocate for where players just sit AFK because they know it makes no difference at all what they do or don't do. If players are not able to power up the stations, then the full timer runs and the event takes longer.
We're advocating for conditions where players actually do something.. you're pushing for time gates, AFK events and making the players actions as meaningless as possible. As usual, you're just arguing against anything anyone suggests about anything because it's what you do in every single case.
I agree with @seaofsorrows , player actions, by completing objectives, should be able to reduce timers. Using the example of Mirror Invasion, I've long held that powering the station to level 5 should end the timer and trigger the dreadnought spawn. Doing so would encourage players to actually play the map to speed it along rather than AFK waiting out a timer.
yea and in addition, enemies should continue shooting at something even when the player is too far away and in addition dead station = queue failed
I agree with @seaofsorrows , player actions, by completing objectives, should be able to reduce timers. Using the example of Mirror Invasion, I've long held that powering the station to level 5 should end the timer and trigger the dreadnought spawn. Doing so would encourage players to actually play the map to speed it along rather than AFK waiting out a timer.
If the power stations were able to do that, why wouldn't the design of the TFO be to turn them on to do THAT from the get go, rather then wasting all that time feeding power into the stations other defenses when said defenses wouldn't be needed if they just tried to close the portals from the begining?
The problem with these kinds of suggestions is that you are advocating for what amounts to the complete removal of the objective, since you are invalidating the objective's reason for existence. Why have the objective at all, and not just start at the Dred fight, in that scenario?
We're advocating for conditions where players actually do something.. you're pushing for time gates, AFK events and making the players actions as meaningless as possible.
Yub, think the reason for it is that R-TFO, or rather PvE in general, is not part of his activities in STO at all.
Reminds me a bit of the Dranuur discussion back at the day where he was all for the massive costs involved and it later turned out that he did not belong to the crowds tending to them in any relevant amounts. No idea why he does that but no reason to waste any energy on futile discussions either.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Comments
Your not wrong. I very much like gravity kills. Though I am sad they took away Tzenkethi pool. Punting them into the black hole was a lot of fun.
The borg STFs used to be a lot more fun. It's not their design that is bad, its power creep. Getting the optional on infected ground used to take teamwork, co-ordination and specific tactics. Back in the day my fleetmates and I ran It a whole lot to get the achievement, which wasn't easy and by no means a sure thing. 15 minutes just wasn't long enough to rescue all the ensigns without doing everything perfectly.
Likewise Cure and Khitomer ground required that people knew the mechanics and co-ordinated to bring down shields. Infected space had the 10% rule regarding the popping of generators and if you had someone just parked on probe duty in Khitomer space you were doing it wrong. Emergency power to engines has always been a great ability even before it got its uptime buffed.
Honestly I think the original borg STFs were the best designed of any we have had. The possibility of failure and the need for team play made them a lot more fun. What has ruined them is power creep.
As you know the Borg missions are my absolute favorites and which pulled me into PVE in the first place. This was when you had random rewards, which i liked because it gave you purpose to get that rare items. Very different from now which you just filling in marks into reps, ... Your needed to collaborate to get pass the mission, which was a good thing. Not just about hitting key F.
I used to love playing these maps over and over again.. especially the ground maps because of collaboration needed to pass the tasks. It gave purpose. And because you had to collaborate, you meet new people and create friendships during the missions. Some of these players have become true friends in the game ( and sadly some don't play anymore). I hope they return because I need my borg TFOs back again.
Why do they need to pull it, can't they just let it stay in until they rework the map or whatever?
This is exactly what Star Trek Online PvE should be all about,.. somehow this has been lost over the years. Although random queues are all effective and all that,.. you loose the community feel over it. People in such public TFOs very rarely talk,.. because they don't need to.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
My character Tsin'xing
Not because it's hard.. because it's not.. but because it's just bad.
The map is not fun.. it's too long and boring, and I hate it like poison. I don't mind running it with fleet mates from time to time, but in a PUG it just adds another layer of annoyance that just makes it not worth doing.
I hate this map, I have always hated it.. and I am 100% cool with pulling it from RTFO's. It was pulled because it sucks, and that was a good call.
My character Tsin'xing
Yeah....the RNG SUCKS! Haven't seen a Scim spawn in forever...barely see anything beyond T'varo after T'varo.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Hey Sea I would not want to have it any other way. Your honest opinion on topics is more important to me than for you to support just mine.
As for what you said, Cure definitely a longer map for sure and things can get annoying there fast if one tends to it with a team of monkeys. For me there is just too much of a difference to let’s say Days of Doom or Storming the Spire simply because on Cure your actions do matter for a change. Too much terrain to cover? Just bring a motion accelerator and winter boots and the problem is solved. Don’t want to run back for samples? Just pay attention!
On the other maps I brought up there is nothing to contribute to their conclusion. No matter if you end up in it with a group of monkeys or the DPS league admin team. The maps just conclude on their own (ok aside from a single kill or a single transport action). There is nothing to learn, nothing to get better at and you end up getting the best reward/effort ratio out of them if you don’t even try.
Personal preferences towards single maps aside the concept of a PvE game where you just line up in order to wait for timer to elapse is just absurd for me but clearly seems to be the path this game is taking simply because it sits better with its player base.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Yep I'm afraid so. There is no need to chat over mission details as it does not matter if you are even in front of your computer while tending to them.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Absolutely.. that is far more annoying. Players should always be able to reduce their time by accomplishing goals, it is the best motivator to make people want to do things. I'll give Cure that, it doesn't have any silly time gates, but I still just overall don't like the mission design.
I am however, curious what caused them to pull it. There are a lot of 'unpopular' missions, this is the first time I have seen them actually pull one though. While I am cool with Cure getting the Axe, it's certainly not something I want to see become a trend.
Oh, wait they did, they just refused to end it before the timer expired, so they modified it to just let rifts infinitely spawn until the timer ran out.
They won't bring back Mirror Incursion until they release the new Engineering Science vessels that close rifts AND power up the transmitters at fast speed.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Leave it to you to actually oppose encouraging players to complete objectives. Amazing.
First, you can take your judgment, and shove it.
I said that players should be able to reduce timers, you're the one that went all Anti DPS. In that scenario you just proposed, what is so wrong with allowing one or two team mates to help with the hack? or find another way to speed up the process?
Nothing is tied to it in it's current form, but that doesn't mean a mechanic cannot be introduced to allow the player to help the process along. Just because you lack imagination doesn't mean the Dev team does.
Again, your bias comes forward.. and again you can cram it with walnuts.
Armies are never endless in size. If they send 100 ships through and they get wiped out, does it really make sense to say 'well, the first 100 ships died in 2 seconds, lets try sending in another wave of 50?" You could allow portals to be closed and have those objectives based on Engineering or Science related objectives.. and that's just 2 seconds off the top of my head. It's not hard to find ways to let players have an actual effect on the map, you are just opposing it because your inventing a scenario were it's all about DPS.
Man, someone is really riled up huh? All I did was suggest that players should be allowed to perform actions to lessen timegates.. something that anyone with even a shred of common sense would advocate.. but here you are using it as a soapbox for your silly 'anti DPS agenda.' It's transparent, it's weak and it's pathetic. No one said a word about wanting to be able to DPS away everything.. that was all you buddy.
We just wait and hope for the best. I have been so impressed how well we deal with all elite maps by now. We always have something to be good at. And, on an optimistic tone, I think the the Disco maps we used to complete our reps are all somewhat fine mechanic wise. A good compromise between timer, teamwork, DPS and motivation. As for DPS, one just needs it on Elite or otherwise is down to advance or normal we can easily ignore now. We have the DEEPZ and all it takes for those who have it is one single mark weekend to pull all thier chars through that rep, lol. Good Rewards there so easy peasy mate.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Agreed, the new maps have been a welcomed addition. I have quite enjoyed playing them.
Absolutely, DPS is only really required in the Elite versions and that's perfectly fine by me. We can have an area to play in pre-made teams that caters to our style, while the Normal and Advanced versions can be enjoyed by all different types of play styles. I see nothing at all wrong with that.
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Works wonders.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
As usual, you just totally don't listen.
badmoon's idea gets you to the dread phase by actually DOING something... as opposed to the current system you advocate for where players just sit AFK because they know it makes no difference at all what they do or don't do. If players are not able to power up the stations, then the full timer runs and the event takes longer.
We're advocating for conditions where players actually do something.. you're pushing for time gates, AFK events and making the players actions as meaningless as possible. As usual, you're just arguing against anything anyone suggests about anything because it's what you do in every single case.
yea and in addition, enemies should continue shooting at something even when the player is too far away and in addition dead station = queue failed
and for cure, hope it will be back soon
ingame: @Felisean
Yub, think the reason for it is that R-TFO, or rather PvE in general, is not part of his activities in STO at all.
Reminds me a bit of the Dranuur discussion back at the day where he was all for the massive costs involved and it later turned out that he did not belong to the crowds tending to them in any relevant amounts. No idea why he does that but no reason to waste any energy on futile discussions either.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.