More maps to be removed from the RTFO system?

peterconnorfirst

Hey folks, Peter here.

With today’s patch I understand that Cure Ground is being removed from RTFOs. I read that in the patch notes with mixed feelings as I’m well aware of the ups and downs of that map after 7 years of play. Heh, think it was even the first PvE map I ever ended up in.

In any case, I’m very curious as to what you guys think about it. Why this map, why not others? Or on a more list-wide level, are there other maps you liked to see removed and if there are please name them and explain why.

peterconnorfirst

somtaawkhar wrote: »

I've read on Reddit that a number of people are having some sort of issue with Cure. Might be they removed it to make sure it wasn't part of the RTFO system so people weren't thrown into it when there is a known issue.

Yea we had a (let’s say map breaking) bug in Cure Ground but it should be ptached out today. Man, it was just BIG!



Content:

- Resolved an issue that could prevent you from interacting with some interacts while playing the TFO “Cure Applied”.

questerius

The only thing which i would like to see removed is the Azure Nebula travesty.
While it is less buggy than before one is still dependent on a RNG to complete the optional objectives and the rewards are less than stellar on top of that.

protoneous

No, leave all 5 man maps in.

I originally thought Cure Ground was being removed from the RTFO list because of a bug, but that bug is being fixed in today's patch. Unless they're unsure of the fix and want to test it live, I'm don't understand why it would be removed for any greater period of time.

Why this map and not others is indeed a good question.

avoozuul

Well I was lucky quite a lot with that queue.

markhawkman

Yes, they could remove this map as well…

I'd go for Infected Ground myself. The boss room is hard even if your team knows what to do. But it's the puzzling and platforming that are a massive obstacle. Do A, B, C, and D before the timer runs out or it resets. Oh and if you fall into the goop you're gonna die unless you get massively lucky.

I've tried it several times over the last few months and every time it failed.

peterconnorfirst

markhawkman wrote: »

I'd go for Infected Ground myself. The boss room is hard even if your team knows what to do. But it's the puzzling and platforming that are a massive obstacle. Do A, B, C, and D before the timer runs out or it resets. Oh and if you fall into the goop you're gonna die unless you get massively lucky.

I've tried it several times over the last few months and every time it failed.

Oh that hurts. Think Infected Ground is one of my most favorite maps in ever.

But yea, much like cure I can see that to become targeted as well. It requires team play even though only to a mild extend and one could argue against its suitability for a system that puts random players together on purpose.

Still? You think it prudent remove the need to learn rudimentary team play aspects altogether? I mean ad kithomer ground to the list and we only have AFK/autocomplete maps without any noteworthy fail conditions left.

Thats why I got so "alerted" over cure. It's one of those few old time maps where playing it to get through is mandatory and not optional. So many new ones complete on thier own, at least for the most part.

peterconnorfirst

questerius wrote: »

The only thing which i would like to see removed is the Azure Nebula travesty.
While it is less buggy than before one is still dependent on a RNG to complete the optional objectives and the rewards are less than stellar on top of that.

I agree. In its current state the map is a massive turn off. RNG related mark payout is frustrating. But hey it’s not that bad as the actual additional marks one can get for the optionals or the overall # of ships saved are not noteworthy away.

… Wait a sec… That actually makes it worse.

trekpuppy

No, leave all 5 man maps in.

I encourage Cryptic to add even more maps to the RTFO pool since the ones not included today are very difficult to get to pop - especially on KDF side. I'm talking primarily of the Fleet mission like Starbase Incursion and Fleet Alert but also the 5+5 competitive missions. Adding to that they should also add elite level as an option to the RTFO since they too are difficult to get to pop without a pre-made team (with the exception of a few popular ones).

baddmoonrizin

No, leave all 5 man maps in.

If the map/mission is bugged, then yes, it would be best to remove it until it is fixed. Otherwise, missions should stay and not be removed just because someone doesn't like the way it plays. Yeah, it sucks that the RNG factor in Azure Nebula Rescue can cause a team to fail the optionals, but the queue is still playable. Infected Ground may be more difficult than the typical TFO with the puzzle element, but it's still completable as long as players don't quit and abandon the team. However, I believe that Elite should still be excluded. Putting together a premade team is the intent for those queues.

warpangel

No, leave all 5 man maps in.

Meh, I haven't touched RTFO since the personal endeavors, instead preferring to manually pick something that's...on target, shall we say. And based on the increasingly long waits on queues that should be filled from the random, I'm not the only one.

doctorstegi

markhawkman wrote: »

I'd go for Infected Ground myself. The boss room is hard even if your team knows what to do. But it's the puzzling and platforming that are a massive obstacle. Do A, B, C, and D before the timer runs out or it resets. Oh and if you fall into the goop you're gonna die unless you get massively lucky.

I've tried it several times over the last few months and every time it failed.

Because its hard? LOL. Why do you play games if you don't want a challenge. One of the few times where Cryptic actually used something like a Boss mechanic and you want it gone cause its to hard. Wow.

markhawkman

Yes, they could remove this map as well…

peterconnorfirst wrote: »

markhawkman wrote: »

I'd go for Infected Ground myself. The boss room is hard even if your team knows what to do. But it's the puzzling and platforming that are a massive obstacle. Do A, B, C, and D before the timer runs out or it resets. Oh and if you fall into the goop you're gonna die unless you get massively lucky.

I've tried it several times over the last few months and every time it failed.

Oh that hurts. Think Infected Ground is one of my most favorite maps in ever.

But yea, much like cure I can see that to become targeted as well. It requires team play even though only to a mild extend and one could argue against its suitability for a system that puts random players together on purpose.

Still? You think it prudent remove the need to learn rudimentary team play aspects altogether? I mean ad kithomer ground to the list and we only have AFK/autocomplete maps without any noteworthy fail conditions left.

Yesterday, I did it with a premade that knew how to complete the map. heck the team leader was streaming on twitch. You can watch it if you want.

the boss part starts around 4:10:00

peterconnorfirst

reyan01 wrote: »

doctorstegi wrote: »

markhawkman wrote: »

I'd go for Infected Ground myself. The boss room is hard even if your team knows what to do. But it's the puzzling and platforming that are a massive obstacle. Do A, B, C, and D before the timer runs out or it resets. Oh and if you fall into the goop you're gonna die unless you get massively lucky.

I've tried it several times over the last few months and every time it failed.

Because its hard? LOL. Why do you play games if you don't want a challenge. One of the few times where Cryptic actually used something like a Boss mechanic and you want it gone cause its to hard. Wow.

I think you've misunderstood what @markhawkman said.

I find it hard too - mostly because nine times out of ten you find yourself in a team that has literally NO idea what they're doing and more often than not, simply quit - and keep in mind that its a map that REQUIRES at least three players (and players who know what to do for that matter) to complete.
RTFOs haven't helped much in this scenario either. Quite a regular occurence, in my experience, for someone on the team to quit right at the start.

Yea it is one of the few maps where indeed three players out of fife are needed to know (or to learn) what to do and not where a single player can DPS a team through like in its space counterpart.

The map even "explains" what to do a few rooms before. Now is it too much to ask for the playerbase? Non DPS centric teamplay?! Isn't that exactly what "we" always wanted too: A map that is not over in 30 seconds?!

warpangel

No, leave all 5 man maps in.

peterconnorfirst wrote: »

reyan01 wrote: »

doctorstegi wrote: »

markhawkman wrote: »

I'd go for Infected Ground myself. The boss room is hard even if your team knows what to do. But it's the puzzling and platforming that are a massive obstacle. Do A, B, C, and D before the timer runs out or it resets. Oh and if you fall into the goop you're gonna die unless you get massively lucky.

I've tried it several times over the last few months and every time it failed.

Because its hard? LOL. Why do you play games if you don't want a challenge. One of the few times where Cryptic actually used something like a Boss mechanic and you want it gone cause its to hard. Wow.

I think you've misunderstood what @markhawkman said.

I find it hard too - mostly because nine times out of ten you find yourself in a team that has literally NO idea what they're doing and more often than not, simply quit - and keep in mind that its a map that REQUIRES at least three players (and players who know what to do for that matter) to complete.
RTFOs haven't helped much in this scenario either. Quite a regular occurence, in my experience, for someone on the team to quit right at the start.

Yea it is one of the few maps where indeed three players out of fife are needed to know (or to learn) what to do and not where a single player can DPS a team through like in its space counterpart.

The map even "explains" what to do a few rooms before. Now is it too much to ask for the playerbase? Non DPS centric teamplay?! Isn't that exactly what "we" always wanted too: A map that is not over in 30 seconds?!

A lot of players are probably so used to the game pampering them at every turn they stumble and fall as soon as they need to actually do something for a change.

I mean, I played the game before all this autowin stuff was invented and back then not even the worst pug teams ever failed IGE because people weren't paying enough attention to push 3 buttons at once. Lots of teams failed it because the boss was actually pretty hard back then, but never once because of the buttons.

peterconnorfirst

warpangel wrote: »

peterconnorfirst wrote: »

reyan01 wrote: »

doctorstegi wrote: »

markhawkman wrote: »

I'd go for Infected Ground myself. The boss room is hard even if your team knows what to do. But it's the puzzling and platforming that are a massive obstacle. Do A, B, C, and D before the timer runs out or it resets. Oh and if you fall into the goop you're gonna die unless you get massively lucky.

I've tried it several times over the last few months and every time it failed.

Because its hard? LOL. Why do you play games if you don't want a challenge. One of the few times where Cryptic actually used something like a Boss mechanic and you want it gone cause its to hard. Wow.

I think you've misunderstood what @markhawkman said.

I find it hard too - mostly because nine times out of ten you find yourself in a team that has literally NO idea what they're doing and more often than not, simply quit - and keep in mind that its a map that REQUIRES at least three players (and players who know what to do for that matter) to complete.
RTFOs haven't helped much in this scenario either. Quite a regular occurence, in my experience, for someone on the team to quit right at the start.

Yea it is one of the few maps where indeed three players out of fife are needed to know (or to learn) what to do and not where a single player can DPS a team through like in its space counterpart.

The map even "explains" what to do a few rooms before. Now is it too much to ask for the playerbase? Non DPS centric teamplay?! Isn't that exactly what "we" always wanted too: A map that is not over in 30 seconds?!

A lot of players are probably so used to the game pampering them at every turn they stumble and fall as soon as they need to actually do something for a change.

I mean, I played the game before all this autowin stuff was invented and back then not even the worst pug teams ever failed IGE because people weren't paying enough attention to push 3 buttons at once. Lots of teams failed it because the boss was actually pretty hard back then, but never once because of the buttons.

Yup, I agree.

And that is what I'm afraid of the most: The random playerbase of 2019 is not "capable" to master content that the playerbase of 2012 (or 11?) somehow managed to strugle through.

warpangel

No, leave all 5 man maps in.

peterconnorfirst wrote: »

warpangel wrote: »

peterconnorfirst wrote: »

reyan01 wrote: »

doctorstegi wrote: »

markhawkman wrote: »

I'd go for Infected Ground myself. The boss room is hard even if your team knows what to do. But it's the puzzling and platforming that are a massive obstacle. Do A, B, C, and D before the timer runs out or it resets. Oh and if you fall into the goop you're gonna die unless you get massively lucky.

I've tried it several times over the last few months and every time it failed.

Because its hard? LOL. Why do you play games if you don't want a challenge. One of the few times where Cryptic actually used something like a Boss mechanic and you want it gone cause its to hard. Wow.

I think you've misunderstood what @markhawkman said.

I find it hard too - mostly because nine times out of ten you find yourself in a team that has literally NO idea what they're doing and more often than not, simply quit - and keep in mind that its a map that REQUIRES at least three players (and players who know what to do for that matter) to complete.
RTFOs haven't helped much in this scenario either. Quite a regular occurence, in my experience, for someone on the team to quit right at the start.

Yea it is one of the few maps where indeed three players out of fife are needed to know (or to learn) what to do and not where a single player can DPS a team through like in its space counterpart.

The map even "explains" what to do a few rooms before. Now is it too much to ask for the playerbase? Non DPS centric teamplay?! Isn't that exactly what "we" always wanted too: A map that is not over in 30 seconds?!

A lot of players are probably so used to the game pampering them at every turn they stumble and fall as soon as they need to actually do something for a change.

I mean, I played the game before all this autowin stuff was invented and back then not even the worst pug teams ever failed IGE because people weren't paying enough attention to push 3 buttons at once. Lots of teams failed it because the boss was actually pretty hard back then, but never once because of the buttons.

Yup, I agree.

And that is what I'm afraid of the most: The random playerbase of 2019 is not "capable" to master content that the playerbase of 2012 (or 11?) somehow managed to strugle through.

I don't believe the players of 2019 are any dumber than the ones of 2012. The difference is the 2012 players had a reason to pay attention and learn the missions, as it was the only way to get the borg sets.

Whereas the 2019 players can just say, "who cares, I'll just quit and go take it easy in something autowin" and get all the same rewards for zero effort. No surprise when they do just that.

zarasz

No, leave all 5 man maps in.

I didnt see this tfo yet. But why remove it? Are randoms not capable of communicating when at least one knows what to do? Or is it to hard for randoms? Whats the point of the system if the more challenging activities get removed because people cant be randomly grouped together to... well... do something as a group?

ussvaliant

Hopefully they fix it asap as Cure Applied isn't a bad TFO. I'd rather play that all day than a lot of others I won't list

peterconnorfirst

ussvaliant#6064 wrote: »

Hopefully they fix it asap as Cure Applied isn't a bad TFO. I'd rather play that all day than a lot of others I won't list

Think they fix it today alright.

Problem is just that it gets removed from the random tfo system with the same patch so getting a team for it will be more problematic. In short it will never pop for public matches.

Current working theory of this thread seems to be that this is a result of educated laziness of the playerbase as any form motivation via rewards feels out of the question in this game for almost half a decade now.

They rather remove obstacles than making them for peeps more appealing to be overcome.

markhawkman

Yes, they could remove this map as well…

peterconnorfirst wrote: »

reyan01 wrote: »

doctorstegi wrote: »

markhawkman wrote: »

I'd go for Infected Ground myself. The boss room is hard even if your team knows what to do. But it's the puzzling and platforming that are a massive obstacle. Do A, B, C, and D before the timer runs out or it resets. Oh and if you fall into the goop you're gonna die unless you get massively lucky.

I've tried it several times over the last few months and every time it failed.

Because its hard? LOL. Why do you play games if you don't want a challenge. One of the few times where Cryptic actually used something like a Boss mechanic and you want it gone cause its to hard. Wow.

I think you've misunderstood what @markhawkman said.

I find it hard too - mostly because nine times out of ten you find yourself in a team that has literally NO idea what they're doing and more often than not, simply quit - and keep in mind that its a map that REQUIRES at least three players (and players who know what to do for that matter) to complete.
RTFOs haven't helped much in this scenario either. Quite a regular occurence, in my experience, for someone on the team to quit right at the start.

Yea it is one of the few maps where indeed three players out of fife are needed to know (or to learn) what to do and not where a single player can DPS a team through like in its space counterpart.

The map even "explains" what to do a few rooms before. Now is it too much to ask for the playerbase? Non DPS centric teamplay?! Isn't that exactly what "we" always wanted too: A map that is not over in 30 seconds?!

So when is the last time you successfully complete Infected Ground Advanced?

It doesn't HAVE a hard fail. You just end up in a situation where you can't progress because mission completion resets continually. Here's a quickie walkthrough to list the problems:

Step 1: everyone needs to run into the boss room at the same time or part of the team will get locked out.

Step 2: wipe the Borg in the room. Anyone who's gotten to the boss stage shouldn't have an issue here.

step 3: while avoiding the deadly soup, jump across the platforms to one of the sets of consoles in a corner of the room. If someone falls rezzing them is extremely difficult. It can be done, but it's not quick or easy. Which will be an issue later.

Step 4: after you upload the virus into the first console, a timer starts counting down until the Borg computer purges the virus and resets. You need to get all 4 consoles to be virused at the same time, so this is a clock you have to beat in order to force the boss to spawn.

Step 5: parkour to the next set of consoles and repeat step 3

Step 6: usually this is about the time the Borg start respawning and one of their abilities will disable your ability to run..... guess what THAT means... either use a Cordrazine Hypo to counteract it(if you have one) or you can't jump far enough to reach a console. You may have no choice but to wait for it to expire and hope the team can continue the mission without you.

Step 7: repeat steps 3 and 6 until you get all four consoles virused at the same time. Now you can shoot the central pillar to bits.

Step 8: Becky stops hiding and the ACTUAL boss fight starts.

Is it impossible? no. Is it something I think should be inflicted on PUGS? Also NO. It's hard to stress just how much easier it is with the forcefield walkways, like 90% of the deaths don't happen.

Seriously, the run I did yesterday, you can watch it if you want, since it was streamed live on twitch. We started IGA around 4:00:00:

peterconnorfirst

markhawkman wrote: »

peterconnorfirst wrote: »

reyan01 wrote: »

doctorstegi wrote: »

markhawkman wrote: »

I'd go for Infected Ground myself. The boss room is hard even if your team knows what to do. But it's the puzzling and platforming that are a massive obstacle. Do A, B, C, and D before the timer runs out or it resets. Oh and if you fall into the goop you're gonna die unless you get massively lucky.

I've tried it several times over the last few months and every time it failed.

Because its hard? LOL. Why do you play games if you don't want a challenge. One of the few times where Cryptic actually used something like a Boss mechanic and you want it gone cause its to hard. Wow.

I think you've misunderstood what @markhawkman said.

I find it hard too - mostly because nine times out of ten you find yourself in a team that has literally NO idea what they're doing and more often than not, simply quit - and keep in mind that its a map that REQUIRES at least three players (and players who know what to do for that matter) to complete.
RTFOs haven't helped much in this scenario either. Quite a regular occurence, in my experience, for someone on the team to quit right at the start.

Yea it is one of the few maps where indeed three players out of fife are needed to know (or to learn) what to do and not where a single player can DPS a team through like in its space counterpart.

The map even "explains" what to do a few rooms before. Now is it too much to ask for the playerbase? Non DPS centric teamplay?! Isn't that exactly what "we" always wanted too: A map that is not over in 30 seconds?!

So when is the last time you successfully complete Infected Ground Advanced?

2 minutes ago. Did it in an incomplete team to see if there is anything wrong or broken with the map. There is not. We completed it with 9,5 mins time left on the hostage rescue timer and defeated becka without any issues.

Was faster for me to do it that way than to read to your entire post not to mention your video.

warpangel

No, leave all 5 man maps in.

markhawkman wrote: »

Is it impossible? no. Is it something I think should be inflicted on PUGS? Also NO. It's hard to stress just how much easier it is with the forcefield walkways, like 90% of the deaths don't happen.

"Go back to Normal"
-The standard 2012 response to people who can't jump

Not that it was needed very often.

peterconnorfirst

somtaawkhar wrote: »

The old Borg TFOs, Infected, Cure, Khitomer, just remove them from the RTFO system until they can get revamped because they are just awful.

Then make your vote and explain in your usual lenght. Cool to have a topic where not everything game related is awsome for a change hu?

peterconnorfirst

somtaawkhar wrote: »

peterconnorfirst wrote: »

Cool to have a topic where not everything game related is awsome for a change hu?

Not sure what you are talking about.

somtaawkhar wrote: »

The old Borg TFOs, Infected, Cure, Khitomer, just remove them from the RTFO system until they can get revamped because they are just awful.

Elaborate and participate in the poll.

pwstolemyname

No, leave all 5 man maps in.

reyan01 wrote: »

and keep in mind that its a map that REQUIRES at least three players (and players who know what to do for that matter) to complete.

Funny you should say that. But it's not true. If requires two competent people, willing to work together, fail a few times without quitting and willing to exploit anything at their disposal.

A long time ago, in a galaxy far away. In a time before doffs, specializations, universal kit modules, shotguns and what have you. I two maned it with a pug. These days it's waaaay easier thanks to power creep. So it's definitely doable.

Everyone else but me (medic kit) and an engineer (fabrication kit) quit the first time we failed to bring down the first gate. But we stuck with it. Took maybe 2 hours? I forget, it was years ago.

Any way, we were quite lucky to be the right classes and have the right kits. If I hadn't been a medic Armek would have been impossible. Back then you had to have someone hold him in melee or it would be a wipe. And if the other person hadn't been able to put down mortars(for knockback) I don't think we would have been able to bring down the gates with just the two of us.

I recon any two captains could do it these days. does not specifically need to be an engineer or medic any more now that we have had years of power creep.

I really miss STFs that require people to work together. I still hold that the old borg STFs (pre-power creep) were way more fun than any of the new ones. The closest we get to co-ordination these days is people splitting to different sides in some.

protoneous

No, leave all 5 man maps in.

somtaawkhar wrote: »

The old Borg TFOs, Infected, Cure, Khitomer, just remove them from the RTFO system until they can get revamped because they are just awful.

Curious as to what you find awful about them. Tastes vary of course with one person's awful being another person's favorite. Didn't Infected Space just get revamped with the addition of a pause at the beginning or do you think they need revamping in other ways?

For me at least these queues are favorites. I think it was just last Christmas eve when a group of people including myself got together on the OP's channel to do all of them (both normal and advanced) on their most junior toons for accolades and of course for fun.

That was clearly one of STO's 'magic moments' for me - playing as a team not for marks or rewards but just for fun on a special holiday evening.

Quite a stark contrast to playing Defense of Starbase One advanced recently with the sound muted on my computer so it wouldn't interfere with the TV show I was watching

pwstolemyname

No, leave all 5 man maps in.

markhawkman wrote: »

Is it impossible? no. Is it something I think should be inflicted on PUGS? Also NO. It's hard to stress just how much easier it is with the forcefield walkways, like 90% of the deaths don't happen.

The way I see it. If you don't organize a group and just sign up to play with random people, doing random content. Then you are getting exactly what you signed up for.

Did you chose to play with random people? Yes.
Did you chose to play random content? Yes.

Complaining about getting random people and random content after signing up for random people and random content is like complaining about getting pizza after ordering a pizza.

Sure some people are bad. But they aren't going to get any better if they dont push themselves.

I reckon I am pretty awesome at STO. There are a lot of other people who are pretty awesome at it too. Your probably awesome as well markhawkman. I don't know how you became awesome, but I became awesome by failing a LOT. I can not push my boundaries if I don't play at the limit if my capabilities.

So when I get a 'bad' team I accept that not everyone starts out knowing how to do everything, and while I carry them, hopefully one or two of them is learning and improving. Maybe the next person to run with them will have a better time.

Infected ground would be soloable if not for the requirement for three people to press buttons at the same time. Because of that requirement, sometimes you may fail if you get a team that would rather quit then learn. But you know what? Its a game, failure doesn't cost us anything except our time. If you don't have the time to waist? Maybe choose what to play before going straight to the random button?

If we call for things to get removed from random then its whole point is lost. It is meant to get content popping that wouldn't otherwise pop. If something must be removed it shouldn't be infected or cure ground, it should be infected or cure space, because those don't need random for people to play them.