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Discovery 2x12: Through the Valley of Shadows (spoilers)

thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,165 Arc User
So, I think Pike is now Starfleet's greatest hero. Plenty of people have sacrficed their lives to save others, and that is obviously heroic. But knowing you would actually have to live on for years in the horrible condition he saw is an even greater sacrifice than the temporary pain that comes before a "typical" sacrificial death (Spock or Kirk). While I don't love everything about discovery, Pike is just incredible (IMO).

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Join Date: Sep 2008

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  • theraven2378theraven2378 Member Posts: 5,985 Arc User
    latest?cb=20190405063327&path-prefix=en
    Love the rework of the classic D7
    NMXb2ph.png
      "The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
      -Lord Commander Solar Macharius
    • marty123#3757 marty123 Member Posts: 670 Arc User
      What was up with the uniforms I’m the future that Pike saw?
    • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,165 Arc User
      What was up with the uniforms I’m the future that Pike saw?

      At that time he was a fleet captain and those were cadets. So neither of those would be the standard uniform that regular officers of the time were wearing.

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    • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,165 Arc User
      latest?cb=20190405063327&path-prefix=en
      Love the rework of the classic D7

      Yep, and the Enterprise bridge(from the promo for next week):

      xpryzg43lfq21.jpg

      The-Grand-Nagus
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    • marty123#3757 marty123 Member Posts: 670 Arc User
      > @thegrandnagus1 said:
      > marty123#3757 wrote: »
      >
      > What was up with the uniforms I’m the future that Pike saw?
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > At that time he was a fleet captain and those were cadets. So neither of those would be the standard uniform that regular officers of the time were wearing.

      Ah, that makes sense
    • marty123#3757 marty123 Member Posts: 670 Arc User
      > @reyan01 said:
      > Still wondering if this leads to the 'fate' we saw for the USS Discovery in 'Calypso'.
      >
      > Time crystal shenanigans ensue; 1000 years to Zora but only hours/days/weeks for the Crew?

      How do time crystals work exactly, do they naturally allow you to manipulate time is is there something you need to do to it (i.e. some reaction or something) to make it able to manipulate time?
    • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
      Pike certainly is a dedicated man. But what else could he be? He's one of the top Starfleet Captains, according to Season 1 already!
      latest?cb=20190405063327&path-prefix=en
      Love the rework of the classic D7

      Forgot about the DSC Enterprise - where and when can I get the DSC D7, and would you accept two kidneys?
      Paging @ambassadorkael#6946?

      Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
    • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
      edited April 2019
      Interesting the choice Pike made, i can understand it very much so. He knows what is waiting for him, so that explains to a point how spock knew and in a previous episode, the Talosians can reach out to talk to Pike by telepathy and projection. So presumably the Talosians knew about Pike's condition or Spock would of and they help him to get at what he wants so much, away from his crippled existence and be with Vena.

      Now i'm starting to understand why Pike was at his end in TOS.
      latest?cb=20190405063327&path-prefix=en
      Love the rework of the classic D7

      at least the discovery creators are mostly sticking canon with the D7, only major difference being the nacelles and pylons.
      Yep, and the Enterprise bridge(from the promo for next week):

      xpryzg43lfq21.jpg

      so odd that the enterprise in a decade from that point would be using crude tech barely worth being called tech with duotronics.
      I wonder what happened to revert their tech like that on the enterprise?
      T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
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    • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,165 Arc User
      > @mirrorchaos said: so odd that the enterprise in a decade from that point would be using crude tech barely worth being called tech with duotronics.
      > I wonder what happened to revert their tech like that on the enterprise?

      To prevent evil AI from doing bad stuff?

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    • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
      > @mirrorchaos said: so odd that the enterprise in a decade from that point would be using crude tech barely worth being called tech with duotronics.
      > I wonder what happened to revert their tech like that on the enterprise?

      To prevent evil AI from doing bad stuff?

      no, because there was still intership systems running, even with slower duotronics and the enterprise had a computer as well.
      T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
      Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
    • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
      I personally think the story is unbelievably silly. Time crystals that seal your fate? Klingons being time lords? Is L'Rells face getting even puffier every time she's on screen? Control going all T-1000 with a bit of Alien? Will Martin-Green deliver her lines just once without tilting her head like a confused puppy?
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      ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
      "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
      "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
      "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
    • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
      angrytarg wrote: »
      Time crystals that seal your fate? Klingons being time lords? Is L'Rells face getting even puffier every time she's on screen? Control going all T-1000 with a bit of Alien? Will Martin-Green deliver her lines just once without tilting her head like a confused puppy?

      time crystals that are harvested seal his fate, he could of just as easily said no and his fate would of been different to the one he saw within.

      These Klingons clearly understand time, the concept and possibly have contact with temporal agents as well. Who knows how far it goes. I think a time lord does sound a bit silly, but then again Klingons not showing the same murderous bloodlust around humans is just as silly.

      Control wants to wipe everything out. it is more like the T-X model than the T-1000 which is sigificantly less advanced and the T-X can inject into mechanical and technological devices, including the T-800 and shut it down.
      T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
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    • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,165 Arc User
      angrytarg wrote: »
      I personally think the story is unbelievably silly. Time crystals that seal your fate? Klingons being time lords? Is L'Rells face getting even puffier every time she's on screen? Control going all T-1000 with a bit of Alien? Will Martin-Green deliver her lines just once without tilting her head like a confused puppy?

      :D

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    • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,165 Arc User
      angrytarg wrote: »
      Time crystals that seal your fate?
      The crystal itself did nothing. Him taking the crystal allows them to defeat Control, creating a future where he lives long enough for said accident to occur. Pike, being the upstanding man that he is, wouldn't walk away from trying to save those cadets, even if he knew what happened to him.

      Yeah, but obviously if he knew the accident was going to occur (even seeing the SPECIFIC people in the room at the time) he could prevent that specific situation from happening. The fact that he apparently could not prevent it, even knowing about it ahead of time, suggests something was literally "sealed" or locked in place and nothing he could do would ever change it.

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    • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,165 Arc User
      Yeah, but obviously if he knew the accident was going to occur (even seeing the SPECIFIC people in the room at the time) he could prevent that specific situation from happening. The fact that he apparently could not prevent it, even knowing about it ahead of time, suggests something was literally "sealed" or locked in place and nothing he could do would ever change it.
      This implies he got a good view of what was going on. He barely saw any specific faces just a bunch of people in a room with a radiation leak. The only face he got a clear view of was his own broken face, and himself in the chair.

      Neither of us know what he got a good view of, so we'll set that point aside since it cannot proven either way.

      The-Grand-Nagus
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    • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,165 Arc User
      Pike certainly is a dedicated man. But what else could he be? He's one of the top Starfleet Captains, according to Season 1 already!
      latest?cb=20190405063327&path-prefix=en
      Love the rework of the classic D7

      Forgot about the DSC Enterprise - where and when can I get the DSC D7, and would you accept two kidneys?
      Paging @ambassadorkael#6946?

      Disco D7 is confirmed:

      https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline#/discussion/1248040/lots-of-info-from-todays-livestream-3-27/p1

      The-Grand-Nagus
      Join Date: Sep 2008

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    • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
      Yeah, but obviously if he knew the accident was going to occur (even seeing the SPECIFIC people in the room at the time) he could prevent that specific situation from happening. The fact that he apparently could not prevent it, even knowing about it ahead of time, suggests something was literally "sealed" or locked in place and nothing he could do would ever change it.
      This implies he got a good view of what was going on. He barely saw any specific faces just a bunch of people in a room with a radiation leak. The only face he got a clear view of was his own broken face, and himself in the chair.
      Neither of us know what he got a good view of, so we'll set that point aside since it cannot proven either way.
      The real crux of discussion is if Pike knew how to make such a fate come to be. Seemingly, he did not. So he chose the least bad option he saw available.
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    • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
      Yeah, but obviously if he knew the accident was going to occur (even seeing the SPECIFIC people in the room at the time) he could prevent that specific situation from happening. The fact that he apparently could not prevent it, even knowing about it ahead of time, suggests something was literally "sealed" or locked in place and nothing he could do would ever change it.
      This implies he got a good view of what was going on. He barely saw any specific faces just a bunch of people in a room with a radiation leak. The only face he got a clear view of was his own broken face, and himself in the chair.
      Neither of us know what he got a good view of, so we'll set that point aside since it cannot proven either way.
      The real crux of discussion is if Pike knew how to make such a fate come to be. Seemingly, he did not. So he chose the least bad option he saw available.

      If he saw a bunch of cadets in his vision, then he could easily avoid this future by not dealing with cadets. However, being afraid of a future will cause Pike to no longer be Captain Pike, but a shell of his former self.
    • saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 4,385 Arc User
      Am I the only one who thought Future!Pike's sequence was the scariest (and best) thing of the episode, especially with the breath practically being a 1:1 copy of the original from TOS?

      Because unlike Control that keeps getting more and more over-the-top and ridiculous OP powers that makes it less and less believable and scary (yay, techno-lovecraftian-styled superpowers and assuming direct control to an entire fleet, to add to superhuman speed, invulnerability, strength and healing factor), Pike's fate taps into your fears of scary and believable conditions (being paralyzed, unable to speak, horribly disfigured, forced to live on life-support for the rest of your life) as well as probably triggering memories of the TOS episode which may have been disturbing at its time for younger viewers.
      #TASforSTO
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    • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
      as well as probably triggering memories of the TOS episode which may have been disturbing at its time for all viewers of all ages.
      fixed that for you.
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    • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
      so odd that the enterprise in a decade from that point would be using crude tech barely worth being called tech with duotronics.
      I wonder what happened to revert their tech like that on the enterprise?
      Nothing, because the tech hasn't reverted. Hell, Discovery uses duotronics, they have mentioned it a few times.
      I said the tech reverted, i didn't say that duotronics was made obsolete.

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    • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
      edited April 2019
      reyan01 wrote: »
      How are 'Time Crystals' more silly than:
      - a sentient gateway that can send people thorough time
      - a stone portal left by an 'ancient civilsation' able to send people back in time at least 300 years
      - certain Orbs that represent wisdom, prophecy and time
      - being transported to a mirror universe via transporter + storm
      - being transported through time via transporter and particles
      - 'Red Matter'

      You know this is strictly subjective. But why does somebody always relent to whataboutism any time someone criticizes DSC?

      To me personally "time crystals" are way, way more silly than any of the mentioned, however, that doesn't mean everything prior was gold. But that isn't what I mean when I find the idea of "crystals" that not only tell you the time but influence the "flow" of time itself AND "seal your fate" when you take them from Boreth, which is now the home of Klingon timelords, way more silly than an advanced, forgotten time portal on a deserted planet.

      Am I the only one who thought Future!Pike's sequence was the scariest (and best) thing of the episode, especially with the breath practically being a 1:1 copy of the original from TOS?

      Because unlike Control that keeps getting more and more over-the-top and ridiculous OP powers that makes it less and less believable and scary (yay, techno-lovecraftian-styled superpowers and assuming direct control to an entire fleet, to add to superhuman speed, invulnerability, strength and healing factor), Pike's fate taps into your fears of scary and believable conditions (being paralyzed, unable to speak, horribly disfigured, forced to live on life-support for the rest of your life) as well as probably triggering memories of the TOS episode which may have been disturbing at its time for younger viewers.

      No, this was really well done and reasonably scary. For the first time I felt DSC touched upon a real, relatable fear (in contrast to jumping around magic mushrooms and the time crystals themselves) and it was a great character moment for Pike. I will say again, in my opinion we didn't need that "bridge" between the pilot and TOS, nor did I ever question what Pike and Spock did in the meantime, however the portrayal of the Enterprise crew is solid, at least not terrible, and I would have watched THAT show over Discovery if this was a possibility.​​
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      ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
      "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
      "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
      "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
    • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
      starkaos wrote: »
      Yeah, but obviously if he knew the accident was going to occur (even seeing the SPECIFIC people in the room at the time) he could prevent that specific situation from happening. The fact that he apparently could not prevent it, even knowing about it ahead of time, suggests something was literally "sealed" or locked in place and nothing he could do would ever change it.
      This implies he got a good view of what was going on. He barely saw any specific faces just a bunch of people in a room with a radiation leak. The only face he got a clear view of was his own broken face, and himself in the chair.
      Neither of us know what he got a good view of, so we'll set that point aside since it cannot proven either way.
      The real crux of discussion is if Pike knew how to make such a fate come to be. Seemingly, he did not. So he chose the least bad option he saw available.

      If he saw a bunch of cadets in his vision, then he could easily avoid this future by not dealing with cadets. However, being afraid of a future will cause Pike to no longer be Captain Pike, but a shell of his former self.

      Well, but if the accident happens without him, someone else will die trying to save the cadets. Or the cadets will die.

      See it like this. His fate isn't magically and deterministically fixed - but every time he is making a decision, he will be guided by his decision here. If he is willing to sacrifice himself for those cadets, if he's willing to sacrifice himself for the future of all sentient life, then every point he has a decision to make in the future will lead him to his fate. Not because the rules of time crystal say so, or because the universe is deterministic - but because that is who he is.

      Another analogy perhaps: A kid is crossing the street in front of you, while you're driving down the road. You have the choice to accelerate and hit it with deadly force, not do anything and probably severely injure it, or break. Which of these decisions are you going to make? With your free will, you could pick any one of them - but by what you know about yourself, and by what kind of person you want to be - you probably will know what kind of decision you make. So, does that actually mean you don't have free will, that it was per-ordained and you could never decide something else?

      Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
    • saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 4,385 Arc User
      starkaos wrote: »
      Yeah, but obviously if he knew the accident was going to occur (even seeing the SPECIFIC people in the room at the time) he could prevent that specific situation from happening. The fact that he apparently could not prevent it, even knowing about it ahead of time, suggests something was literally "sealed" or locked in place and nothing he could do would ever change it.
      This implies he got a good view of what was going on. He barely saw any specific faces just a bunch of people in a room with a radiation leak. The only face he got a clear view of was his own broken face, and himself in the chair.
      Neither of us know what he got a good view of, so we'll set that point aside since it cannot proven either way.
      The real crux of discussion is if Pike knew how to make such a fate come to be. Seemingly, he did not. So he chose the least bad option he saw available.

      If he saw a bunch of cadets in his vision, then he could easily avoid this future by not dealing with cadets. However, being afraid of a future will cause Pike to no longer be Captain Pike, but a shell of his former self.

      Well, but if the accident happens without him, someone else will die trying to save the cadets. Or the cadets will die.

      See it like this. His fate isn't magically and deterministically fixed - but every time he is making a decision, he will be guided by his decision here. If he is willing to sacrifice himself for those cadets, if he's willing to sacrifice himself for the future of all sentient life, then every point he has a decision to make in the future will lead him to his fate. Not because the rules of time crystal say so, or because the universe is deterministic - but because that is who he is.

      Another analogy perhaps: A kid is crossing the street in front of you, while you're driving down the road. You have the choice to accelerate and hit it with deadly force, not do anything and probably severely injure it, or break. Which of these decisions are you going to make? With your free will, you could pick any one of them - but by what you know about yourself, and by what kind of person you want to be - you probably will know what kind of decision you make. So, does that actually mean you don't have free will, that it was per-ordained and you could never decide something else?

      Also, maybe some events don't seem to be able to change without causing catastrophic timeline incidents, similar to the temporal nexuses in Dr Who.

      Also, based on what is said in the Kelvin Timeline movies, novels and comics, it seems time in Star Trek is kinda, sorta semi-sentient, allowing it to attempt to fix severe temporal mistakes, like how despite everything the Narada caused, the Enterprise still ended up existing and having the same main crew, Kirk became its captain despite having a vastly different childhood, etc.

      So maybe Pike's fate is something that is bound to happen no matter what.
      #TASforSTO
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    • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
      starkaos wrote: »
      Yeah, but obviously if he knew the accident was going to occur (even seeing the SPECIFIC people in the room at the time) he could prevent that specific situation from happening. The fact that he apparently could not prevent it, even knowing about it ahead of time, suggests something was literally "sealed" or locked in place and nothing he could do would ever change it.
      This implies he got a good view of what was going on. He barely saw any specific faces just a bunch of people in a room with a radiation leak. The only face he got a clear view of was his own broken face, and himself in the chair.
      Neither of us know what he got a good view of, so we'll set that point aside since it cannot proven either way.
      The real crux of discussion is if Pike knew how to make such a fate come to be. Seemingly, he did not. So he chose the least bad option he saw available.

      If he saw a bunch of cadets in his vision, then he could easily avoid this future by not dealing with cadets. However, being afraid of a future will cause Pike to no longer be Captain Pike, but a shell of his former self.

      Well, but if the accident happens without him, someone else will die trying to save the cadets. Or the cadets will die.

      See it like this. His fate isn't magically and deterministically fixed - but every time he is making a decision, he will be guided by his decision here. If he is willing to sacrifice himself for those cadets, if he's willing to sacrifice himself for the future of all sentient life, then every point he has a decision to make in the future will lead him to his fate. Not because the rules of time crystal say so, or because the universe is deterministic - but because that is who he is.

      Another analogy perhaps: A kid is crossing the street in front of you, while you're driving down the road. You have the choice to accelerate and hit it with deadly force, not do anything and probably severely injure it, or break. Which of these decisions are you going to make? With your free will, you could pick any one of them - but by what you know about yourself, and by what kind of person you want to be - you probably will know what kind of decision you make. So, does that actually mean you don't have free will, that it was per-ordained and you could never decide something else?

      Also, maybe some events don't seem to be able to change without causing catastrophic timeline incidents, similar to the temporal nexuses in Dr Who.

      Also, based on what is said in the Kelvin Timeline movies, novels and comics, it seems time in Star Trek is kinda, sorta semi-sentient, allowing it to attempt to fix severe temporal mistakes, like how despite everything the Narada caused, the Enterprise still ended up existing and having the same main crew, Kirk became its captain despite having a vastly different childhood, etc.

      So maybe Pike's fate is something that is bound to happen no matter what.

      There is no evidence that time is semi-sentient, but there are omnipotent being in Star Trek that could fix severe temporal mistakes. It seems like the main goal of every organization that controls time is to ensure their own existence and the same could be said for these omnipotent beings.

      As far as Kirk being the captain of the Enterprise and having the same crew in Star Trek 2009 just proves that the Star Trek universe is a deterministic universe where free will doesn't exist.
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