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Is this the first time they have made enemies hit less hard?

At the bottom of the Peril over Pahvo! page. Is this game wide?

"In addition, we'll be rolling out some changes to enemy difficulty with this new update. We've heard your feedback on high level battles, and after a lot of internal testing, we're going to be making our first changes to that difficulty to hopefully make those big fights a little more tenable. You'll notice enemies at levels 55 and above will be hitting a little less hard."

https://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/11106393-peril-over-pahvo!
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Comments

  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 48,644 Arc User
    There might have been a scaling issue. Its most noticable against Terrans, who seem to hit like a ton of bricks. Especially those Torp Spreads from Command Cruisers.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • parish#5017 parish Member Posts: 87 Arc User
    Those Command Cruisers are deadly, but I love the challenge.
  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 3,296 Arc User
    At the bottom of the Peril over Pahvo! page. Is this game wide?

    "In addition, we'll be rolling out some changes to enemy difficulty with this new update. We've heard your feedback on high level battles, and after a lot of internal testing, we're going to be making our first changes to that difficulty to hopefully make those big fights a little more tenable. You'll notice enemies at levels 55 and above will be hitting a little less hard."

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/11106393-peril-over-pahvo!

    Nope. Happened a few times, most notably with Delta Rising IIRC.
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,217 Arc User
    Those Command Cruisers are deadly, but I love the challenge.

    Same here but not when they are 1 shotting you with Torp Spread and Tractor Beams.
    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 48,644 Arc User
    Yea... its like they got Torp Spread 4 and the damage was ramped up. I enjoy a challenge too, especially when an enemy has access to some of the same abilities as a player, but those Command Cruisers ramp it up a little too much.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • natureyouscarynatureyouscary Member Posts: 46 Arc User
    Ya tzenkethi and Terran torp spreads can literally do 200k+ per ship using it on normal. So can totally understand the adjustment.
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 9,640 Arc User
    I'd like the Borg Tachyon Beam to be as effective as ours. ;)
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!
    Judge Dan Haywood
  • zerokillcf2011zerokillcf2011 Member Posts: 545 Arc User
    Not the first time, but it is rare. They had to turn down NPC damage after Delta Rising was launched with the new T6 level, they overestimated.

    Ironically, they need to turn UP damage on some old baddies (looking at you Borg)
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,503 Arc User
    ltminns wrote: »
    I'd like the Borg Tachyon Beam to be as effective as ours. ;)

    It actually might be, NPCs just have more shield points than we do. :(
    On the other hand, they also rarely have miracleous self-repair powers that turn them from almost exploding to pristine in 0.5 seconds. (NPCs would be far worse if they had that - because then low DPS builds would never kill anything.)
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 48,644 Arc User
    Ironically, they need to turn UP damage on some old baddies (looking at you Borg)

    Never been hit by an insta-kill Invisitorp have you? ;)
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 6,229 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Never been hit by an insta-kill Invisitorp have you? ;)
    TBH I've not been hit by one of those in such a long time that I have assumed they fixed it some time ago.

  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 48,644 Arc User
    Oh its still around. Pretty rare these days, but its still around.

    People try to say its just because its a heavy that doesn't render because of everything else... but when the damage log says "Plasma Torpedo" and a ludicris amount of damage after you go from full health/full shield to DEAD... that ain't an unrendered High Yield you can shoot down. That's just a straight up murder torp Skipper Missile. lol
    Cyber cookie for anyone who gets the reference. ;)

    But other than that, current heavy hitting NPC groups are Tzenkethi and Terran/Fed. I put Fed in as well because they both use the same assets and powers as the Terrans. Its just that Terrans are more accessable for everyone.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • avoozuulavoozuul Member Posts: 2,406 Arc User
    Korfez seemed to have scaling issues.
    We did not come here to tell people what and what not to believe in, everyone awakens at their own pace and way.

    Love is what truly matters.
  • ichaerus1ichaerus1 Member Posts: 793 Arc User
    Not the first time they lowered the damage, no. And it won't be the last. Really does seem that they're dumbing it down to the lowest common denominator.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 48,644 Arc User
    Wouldn't say it like that.The only content that really can be gated is Korfez and other Elite level stuff. Everything else is generally accessable to everyone. But when you have certain enemy groups hitting harder than they should... that's a problem.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • coldnapalmcoldnapalm Member Posts: 7,483 Arc User
    I'm still not sure that the problem was a scaling issue and not a bug on kinetic damage. I had some runs where those tzen would do 300k TS and I would be doing 65k with a MISSLE. No HY, no TS...no consoles buffing it. If it was a straight up scaling issue, my dual cannons should be hitting for like 300k per shot.
  • theraven2378theraven2378 Member Posts: 5,567 Arc User
    I like challenge
    NMXb2ph.png



  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 7,888 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Wouldn't say it like that.The only content that really can be gated is Korfez and other Elite level stuff. Everything else is generally accessable to everyone. But when you have certain enemy groups hitting harder than they should... that's a problem.

    I still say that while there was/is obviously an issue with Kinetic Scaling, that it's been blown pretty much out of proportion. I have been hit with a 'super torp,' from time to time.. yeah, it can be a bit of an inconvenience, but I just take it for what it is.. respawn if it manages to kill me and press on.

    I really don't think it was a reason to perform a global change to difficulty. I realize that some players struggle when they get to a certain point in the story arc, but I never really saw that as a major problem just because most online games I have played had this functionality. I liked that the story content forced you to get better, I think it's best overall for the game as it helps get more educated and overall better players into group queues. STO has a community that's very quick to help new or struggling players, I would prefer to see players take advantage of the community and rise to the challenge as opposed to having the content made easier. I understand why cryptic did what they did, it's just not the method I personally like. It's always nice to help a struggling player and then have then report back that they are now having success. I am afraid that if single player content is too easy then players believe they are doing everything correctly and then they go into Advanced Queues and they can't hold their own. It's not even the players fault, they have been led to believe up to that point that they're killing it and then all the sudden they're blowing up left and right.
    I like challenge

    So do I, but unfortunately we're not the majority that the developers need to cater to. For those like us, we have Elite Queues at least.
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  • laughinxanlaughinxan Member Posts: 83 Arc User
    edited March 16
    (Edit: I know, ended up with a wall of text here my bad :smiley:, I put in some bold text in to separate some of my points )

    "They catering to the lowest common denominator"

    I agree with the upcoming change. And no this is so not catering to "Lowest common denominator". But because of how unapproachable the game suddenly becomes hitting 60-65 for a newer player.

    Consecutive normal torpedoes!*player is instantly evaporated!*

    I always thought, with the absurd torpedo damage, a better analagy was every npc with torpedo spread was a flying saitama. I mean the OP torpedoes are not the targettable kind but always some mundane normal shot or torpedo spread, kind of like Saitama's "Consecutive normal punches"(basically, INSTANTLY cause monster to EXPLODE, like they instantly make YOU explode in one shot with a mundane torpedo). Just as well have all the npc's say "Normal consecutive torpedoes" when they do that.

    I've figured out more or less how to defend myself and how to destroy enemies especially fast now(heck, even stop most of the cheap-shots they use). At the very least I can solo missions if I want and have some fun doing it. But the enemies being overpowered in solo content 60-65 or so certainly rubbed some people the wrong way(heck, just look online at the complaints people had I'm sure a good number didn't say anything at all and just left). New players have to be able to get into this game likewise to really discover the depth it has gameplay wise.

    Advanced/elite content having things be harder imo is fine. I'd expect that. But normal difficulty and seeing normal mundane torpedoes crit for 100k and torpedo spreads consisting of multiple 100k hits against you all of a sudden isn't fun for 99% players, even people who enjoy a challenge. Only complete sado-masochists can enjoy that.

    "But the game is to easy you can respawn endlessly!"

    It's also not fun respawning 4-5+ times in a mission and some like me prefer to do a section of a mission death-less. In fact it should feel like a section CAN be done without dying. Maybe different tactics or maybe even just better gear, it should feel like a section can be doable without dying once. TFO's is another matter entirely, but in solo content a player should be, if failing, they should feel like they can do better.

    When players feel like they can do better they are often eager to try again and improve on their strategies and builds. That keeps them around and causes them to improve. When instead players just die instantly for no clear reason and see that torpedoes are one-shotting them, I think it kills that feeling of "I can do better" and replaces it with "what the heck? Is this a joke?".

    When I died in missions at earlier levels, I could generally tell what was killing me and i'd try again after changing my strategy a little. Once the instant-death torps started appearing on my first grind to the 60s however, I was well, screaming "WTF WAS THAT!?", look through combat logs, see I was hit by mundane torpedoes for 60-100k/hit, that was the end of soloing normal missions for me for a very, very long time. Because it wasn't fun.

    "STO has a learning curve, learn to play N00b"

    Even when I did start doing well the first time(on an advanced escort t5 with a science captain) it still felt like I was brutally underpowered in every fight, and it still wasn't very fun. And enemies felt like major damage sponges even when I was using EPtW(actually may have been EPtS because enemy torp damage way to high) and all the damage consoles. And at that time I was being carried by photonic fleet. I didn't know how to hit especially hard yet and was still using dual beam banks/turrets(something I don't do anymore, if it doesn't kill efficiently I don't use it). It didn't help some people I thought were friends, really weren't. Heck, they actually got upset at me when I started feeling successful and had to announce my achievement when I was starting to do better.

    I learned, but I'm still left asking myself why I haven't played so much of the story solo.

    STO is fun for me again, not because of the upcoming change but because now I've got enough of a grasp it's playable again solo if I desire. And course, making much better friends.

    Although 90% of the time I tend to just play TFO's, since I find teaming with people to be much funner. But it took me a LONG time to get the confidence to play missions solo again. Because of the difficulty spike. The damage is at the moment of writing this a bit to high especially for newer players so I agree with lowering it. I mean they aren't going to have mk13+ weapons with a t6 ship and a build they can execute to brilliance. They'll be likely sporting a t5 ship, maybe escort or bird of pray or cruiser(or even science vessel) that is fragile enough it just as well be cardboard against the current enemy damage as of writing this post.

    The game has to continue being fun and people have to be able to get into the game. Approachable really isn't a dirty word. People won't get better at a game when it suddenly spikes up super hard in an instant that they just quit.
    Post edited by laughinxan on


    It takes a strong man to deny whats right in front of him. And when the truth is undeniable, you create your own. - Conrad - Spec ops the Line

    Every time I see a wannabe-pro-gamer, the tryhard, I'm instantly thinking of how they often think they are the heroes of supposedly hard games. How it's there words that make sense only to them, but in the end, they are the ones actually hurting and harming the challenging game industry. From defending obvious game-breakers, or demanding others use a mechanic that fundamentally removes challenge. Sorry dudes, your not helping. Your not even helping games become challenging or hard in a good way again.

    Games don't feel like games when you can't lose, and also don't feel the same if you can't win fairly either.
  • laughinxanlaughinxan Member Posts: 83 Arc User
    edited March 16
    There is a difference between challenge and instantly being destroyed by a 100k damage torpedo or 100k/hit torpedo spread one just as well call "Consecutive normal torpedoes". I don't mind challenge in fact, welcome it but it's not very fun trying to solo with npc's having such absurd amounts of firepower. And I certainly don't think people have fun dying 5-6 times in an instance when trying to solo.

    And it wasn't just newbies complaining about the insane damage npc's put out, even some veterans were annoyed at the torpedoes. It's just not fun to have over 50-70% shield resistance and max resistance and still be destroyed with ease.

    My understanding it's a slight decrease in npc damage. We'll see what the actual numbers will be when it goes live. Honestly I tend to only die to feedback pulse(only due to it not being telegraphed well), and normal 80-100k crit torpedoes and spread. Any other time I die I can usually tell why and come up with a counter to it.


    It takes a strong man to deny whats right in front of him. And when the truth is undeniable, you create your own. - Conrad - Spec ops the Line

    Every time I see a wannabe-pro-gamer, the tryhard, I'm instantly thinking of how they often think they are the heroes of supposedly hard games. How it's there words that make sense only to them, but in the end, they are the ones actually hurting and harming the challenging game industry. From defending obvious game-breakers, or demanding others use a mechanic that fundamentally removes challenge. Sorry dudes, your not helping. Your not even helping games become challenging or hard in a good way again.

    Games don't feel like games when you can't lose, and also don't feel the same if you can't win fairly either.
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 9,640 Arc User
    Especially in the day the Enterprise's shields could withstand the energy of 450 Photon Torpedoes.
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!
    Judge Dan Haywood
  • theraven2378theraven2378 Member Posts: 5,567 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Wouldn't say it like that.The only content that really can be gated is Korfez and other Elite level stuff. Everything else is generally accessable to everyone. But when you have certain enemy groups hitting harder than they should... that's a problem.

    I still say that while there was/is obviously an issue with Kinetic Scaling, that it's been blown pretty much out of proportion. I have been hit with a 'super torp,' from time to time.. yeah, it can be a bit of an inconvenience, but I just take it for what it is.. respawn if it manages to kill me and press on.

    I really don't think it was a reason to perform a global change to difficulty. I realize that some players struggle when they get to a certain point in the story arc, but I never really saw that as a major problem just because most online games I have played had this functionality. I liked that the story content forced you to get better, I think it's best overall for the game as it helps get more educated and overall better players into group queues. STO has a community that's very quick to help new or struggling players, I would prefer to see players take advantage of the community and rise to the challenge as opposed to having the content made easier. I understand why cryptic did what they did, it's just not the method I personally like. It's always nice to help a struggling player and then have then report back that they are now having success. I am afraid that if single player content is too easy then players believe they are doing everything correctly and then they go into Advanced Queues and they can't hold their own. It's not even the players fault, they have been led to believe up to that point that they're killing it and then all the sudden they're blowing up left and right.
    I like challenge

    So do I, but unfortunately we're not the majority that the developers need to cater to. For those like us, we have Elite Queues at least.

    Advanced queues tend to cut the wheat from the chaff in terms of player and build quality, you can generally tell if it's going to be a bad round just off the amount of times someone goes boom.

    NMXb2ph.png



  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 1,677 Arc User
    ltminns wrote: »
    I'd like the Borg Tachyon Beam to be as effective as ours. ;)

    It actually might be, NPCs just have more shield points than we do. :(
    On the other hand, they also rarely have miracleous self-repair powers that turn them from almost exploding to pristine in 0.5 seconds. (NPCs would be far worse if they had that - because then low DPS builds would never kill anything.)
    Actually that engineering ability has a rather long CD if you're not taking massive amounts of damage relative to your max HP so low DPS builds will probably not trigger the CD reduction (assuming NPCs would even have that it's a trait).
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,503 Arc User
    spiritborn wrote: »
    ltminns wrote: »
    I'd like the Borg Tachyon Beam to be as effective as ours. ;)

    It actually might be, NPCs just have more shield points than we do. :(
    On the other hand, they also rarely have miracleous self-repair powers that turn them from almost exploding to pristine in 0.5 seconds. (NPCs would be far worse if they had that - because then low DPS builds would never kill anything.)
    Actually that engineering ability has a rather long CD if you're not taking massive amounts of damage relative to your max HP so low DPS builds will probably not trigger the CD reduction (assuming NPCs would even have that it's a trait).
    I wasn't just alluding to the Engineer's Miracle Worker ability, but the general repertoire of heals players can have on their ship.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 48,644 Arc User
    I wasn't just alluding to the Engineer's Miracle Worker ability, but the general repertoire of heals players can have on their ship.

    The problem is the current meta is "it can't hurt you if its already dead". So people tend to slap on as much damage as possible for the quick kill. Yea it makes them generally more vulnerable if the enemy survives that first attack, but the idea is that the best defense is a good offense.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • coldnapalmcoldnapalm Member Posts: 7,483 Arc User
    spiritborn wrote: »
    ltminns wrote: »
    I'd like the Borg Tachyon Beam to be as effective as ours. ;)

    It actually might be, NPCs just have more shield points than we do. :(
    On the other hand, they also rarely have miracleous self-repair powers that turn them from almost exploding to pristine in 0.5 seconds. (NPCs would be far worse if they had that - because then low DPS builds would never kill anything.)
    Actually that engineering ability has a rather long CD if you're not taking massive amounts of damage relative to your max HP so low DPS builds will probably not trigger the CD reduction (assuming NPCs would even have that it's a trait).
    I wasn't just alluding to the Engineer's Miracle Worker ability, but the general repertoire of heals players can have on their ship.

    You can't heal if you are dead. When sometimes normal mode is doing 300+k damage in one go..THROUGH SHIELD...there is nothing you can do other than be immune to damage.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 7,888 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    The problem is the current meta is "it can't hurt you if its already dead". So people tend to slap on as much damage as possible for the quick kill. Yea it makes them generally more vulnerable if the enemy survives that first attack, but the idea is that the best defense is a good offense.

    Half true.

    Most 'meta' builds.. or close variations include a fair amount of survivability. These things are done mostly through traits (Repair Crews, Ablative Shell, Context is for Kings, Honored Dead, etc.) consoles like the Protomatter, reiterative structural capacitor, etc. or though bridge officer skills like Emergency Power to Shields, Reverse Shield Polarity, etc.

    Yes, the focus is on Damage.. killing the enemy before they can kill you. But anyone that knows what they're doing brings plenty of things that help them survive being under heavy fire. People tend to think that since we don't waste console slots with with bad consoles like Armor consoles, that we're building without any survivability, but that's just not true.

    The trick is always to bring as much damage as you can while still maintaining ability to stay in the fight. When you're looking at the respawn screen, your DPS is always zero. :wink:

    Most of the 'problems' that new or inexperienced players are having are just result of poorly optimized builds. Making the content easier might help them a little, but the real answer is teaching people to do things better.. not constantly lowering the bar.
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    Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
    For tips, builds, guides and advice, be sure to visit The DPS League Site for all your needs.
  • azrael605azrael605 Member Posts: 10,133 Arc User
    > @coldnapalm said:
    > mustrumridcully0 wrote: »
    >
    > spiritborn wrote: »
    >
    > mustrumridcully0 wrote: »
    >
    > ltminns wrote: »
    >
    > I'd like the Borg Tachyon Beam to be as effective as ours. ;)
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > It actually might be, NPCs just have more shield points than we do. :(
    > On the other hand, they also rarely have miracleous self-repair powers that turn them from almost exploding to pristine in 0.5 seconds. (NPCs would be far worse if they had that - because then low DPS builds would never kill anything.)
    >
    >
    >
    > Actually that engineering ability has a rather long CD if you're not taking massive amounts of damage relative to your max HP so low DPS builds will probably not trigger the CD reduction (assuming NPCs would even have that it's a trait).
    >
    >
    >
    > I wasn't just alluding to the Engineer's Miracle Worker ability, but the general repertoire of heals players can have on their ship.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > You can't heal if you are dead. When sometimes normal mode is doing 300+k damage in one go..THROUGH SHIELD...there is nothing you can do other than be immune to damage.

    Still never seen this happen even once.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 7,888 Arc User
    edited March 17
    azrael605 wrote: »
    Still never seen this happen even once.

    Yeah, me either.

    I have heard about it on the boards.. but never seen anything like that in Normal. I won't say it's never happened, but if it has it's rare enough that it's not a good reason to restructure combat difficulty in order to fix.
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 48,644 Arc User
    Most of the 'problems' that new or inexperienced players are having are just result of poorly optimized builds. Making the content easier might help them a little, but the real answer is teaching people to do things better.. not constantly lowering the bar.

    The problem though is that for all intents and purposes no one is willing to teach people to do better. There are people who will attack others who don't "measure up", and there are people who will just flat out ignore. A few people, like myself, are willing to go over someone's build to see what could be improved. My approach is much more balanced than most people, but IMO the more generalist builds are a good foundation to build on while not catering to a meta playstyle requiring large investments of ECs and potentially Zen. I also feel that personal playstyle shouldn't be sacrificed for DPS. If you're a more conservative, defensive player, an aggressive offensive build isn't going to be fun.

    While a few of us on the forums are quite willing to help, not everyone comes on the forums.

    So essentially you just highlighted a COMMUNITY issue that needs to be addressed. Cryptic can only teach us the basics of ship builds. It is the Players that know the true ins and outs. What works and what doesn't. And it is interaction with players that may help identify particular playstyles and help with optimized builds that compliment that person's playstyle rather than just give out cookie cutter builds.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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