Star Trek and Captains....

kiksken

Hail

Most of you probably know me, I think.

I cam here before you with a few thoughts, remarks, about the known (both series and movies) Captains.
Let me sum these up, and give you my personal thoughts:

1) Star Trek, the series: Kaptain Kirk:
Now, before I go on to this person, let me say, that I AM aware of the time setting here on Earth: the mid sixties (1966 to be more precise), about the time we got to end the Wild West.
Still VERY there though in Kirk's time line, he's the epitome of the Wild West sherif, gunslinger extraordinaire, shooting his ways through heaps of Klingons and whatnot, a mediocre fella in mediocre settings.
Do not get me wrong, he's a fine actor, but the timeline on Earth in which all was recorded made it a bit... held back.
Imagine, he did this this day in time, it would have been a MUCH different thing.
I remembered him, saw him as a young kid, and back in them days, it was quite awesome: lasers, starships, aliens... but his role was... meh.
If i remember ANY role from then... it would be Mr. Spock.
Hotdang, what a fella this was.
Leonard Nimoy was quite the aqctor, not just in movie art, but as individual as well.
I mean, see him in other movies: for one the old Invasion of the body snatchers, where he played this "Spocky" type psychiater... MARVELOUS...

2) ST-NG:
1987: The Next-Gen: Captain Jean-Luc Picard.
MY GOD, what a captain...
He is the epitome of Captains, he set a bar so high...
A believeable character in sometimes mediocre settings, and he still made it grand.
But not just Sir Patrick Steward is to thank for it, so is the ENTIRE cast.
They all contributed to what to me is, the standard (sadly never even close redone).
Will riker, Cmdr Data, all off them made it into a reall visionary fest to behold...

DS9:
Benjamin Sisko, unlike previous Captains, this one had no starship, but a space station.
Not a very remarkable personae, but not too bad, quite watchable.
Far more inspiring was the good doctor Bashir, and the MAGNIFCENT Garak, Elim.
Boy did i love that fella...

ST-V:
Captain Janeway: Oh come on, REALLY?
My GOD what a waste of good resources, that series is.
Either under- or overperformed, blant, clueless, a big mistake, IMHO.
Best ep, in my opinion, was Drone.
But only because of One.

ST-E:
Enterprise?
My God...
See ST-V...

ST-D:
Discovery: Now this one has my attention, if the next eps will be as good as it was with the first season... hmmm....

ST-JLP:
The Picard Series...
OMG, this makes me drool.
I am not kidding, I am SO looking forward to it.
At last they figured the true captain should return!
I hope they delete ST-V and ST-E from my mind.

The Phillippa series...
Meh, I'lkl stick with JLP, thank you.


How do you see all this?

rattler2

Voyager suffered from "Too many cooks in the Kitchen". Too many writers wanting to take characters in different directions. The Actors did what they could but... you can only do so much when the script makes you do a complete 180 from the previous script.

Enterprise was set in a time before the Federation, and Starfleet was very much the new kid on the block. All the other Captains, including Kirk, had The Book to work off of. Archer... was literally writing The Book. So him being relatively inexperienced and unprepared unlike the other Captains kinda makes sense.

But... to each their own.

To add on however... Just wanna say that the TNG crew, while still amazing... came across as tired in Nemesis. Honestly I think First Contact and Insurrection were better. First Contact was darker, had action, and made the TNG ultimate evil (Borg) even scarier, while Insurrection actually dealt with morality and even managed some humor. Generations was a "Passing of the Torch" movie for the crews.

The Kelvin Timeline movies did pretty good at bringing the TOS crew to the 21st Century so to speak. The actors did a good job playing the roles, although I think pretty much everyone agrees that Karl Urban absolutely NAILED McCoy. Chris Pine did pretty good as a more rebelious Kirk, especially since this version didn't have his father as an inspiration factor. Until he ran into Pike in that Iowa bar, he really didn't have a role model. Just a ghost.

theboxisred

I'm amazed at how many people misrepresent Kirk. It's almost as though they are reacting to the legend and not the character. This is especially true of those responsible for the JJverse. Just to get this out of the way; Yes, it is.

Perhaps a re-watch is in order.

jeff

Captain Picard is the epitome of what a naval officer should be.

Intelligent.
Polite, but the aura about him commanded respect.
Standing firm on beliefs of morals, right and wrong, and the chain of command.
Compassionate and understanding at the appropriate times.
And will unleash hell upon his enemies when all other options have been exhausted.
Should be the absolute without question firm example for the doctrine of Starfleet academy and officer training.

And surrounded by a stellar supporting crew and actors, will forever be hard to beat...

ryan218

Now see, what I like about Sisko is exactly that he isn't remarkable (being Emissary of the Prophets notwithstanding). He's an ordinary, flawed, human being doing a job. A lot of Sci-Fi captains (Kirk especially) are defined by their role. Sisko's command style was informed by his character, rather than the other way around. He was a Starfleet Officer who lost his wife and was given command of a run-down space station in the middle of nowhere, basically being told to 'get on with it'. You could have made him any other character and it still would have worked, because there's nothing inherently special about his character. He's not Space-Horatio Hornblower; he's not a Paragon of Virtue; he's a man doing a difficult job with what he has available.

Picard's still my fav though.

starswordc

rattler2 wrote: »

The Kelvin Timeline movies did pretty good at bringing the TOS crew to the 21st Century so to speak. The actors did a good job playing the roles, although I think pretty much everyone agrees that Karl Urban absolutely NAILED McCoy. Chris Pine did pretty good as a more rebelious Kirk, especially since this version didn't have his father as an inspiration factor. Until he ran into Pike in that Iowa bar, he really didn't have a role model. Just a ghost.

Oh, please. In the first two movies Kelvin!Kirk is an arrogant, insubordinate, entitled whiny little prick who isn't worthy to command a wheelbarrow, never mind a ship capable of glassing inhabited worlds.

mirrorchaos

Archer is prideful, stubborn, not very open to new ideas and aggressive.
JJtrek Kirk is grandiosly arrogant, reckless, aggressive and self destructive.
Prime Kirk is always a bar room brawler, petty, prideful and aggressive.
Picard is prideful, stubborn, and lacks patience when under pressure.
Sisko is sometimes cautious, arrogant, cold, aggressive and not very open to new ideas.
Janeway is grandiosly arrogant, reckless, aggressive and generally tactless.

Of all of these captains, Janeway is the one that has as much subtly being a captain as a jumbo jet taking off next to a church in quiet meditation.

rattler2

starswordc wrote: »

Oh, please. In the first two movies Kelvin!Kirk is an arrogant, insubordinate, entitled whiny little prick who isn't worthy to command a wheelbarrow, never mind a ship capable of glassing inhabited worlds.

Which is due to not having a father figure. In Into Darkness he was kinda out for revenge after the man he did look up to was killed, but stuck to the law and the ideals of the Federation. He matured in Beyond and was less of a wildcard, especially after losing the Enterprise.

While me may have started out as the prick that you described... he did change through experience.

mirrorchaos

rattler2 wrote: »

starswordc wrote: »

Oh, please. In the first two movies Kelvin!Kirk is an arrogant, insubordinate, entitled whiny little prick who isn't worthy to command a wheelbarrow, never mind a ship capable of glassing inhabited worlds.

Which is due to not having a father figure. In Into Darkness he was kinda out for revenge after the man he did look up to was killed, but stuck to the law and the ideals of the Federation. He matured in Beyond and was less of a wildcard, especially after losing the Enterprise.

While me may have started out as the prick that you described... he did change through experience.

He didn't change that much, he still conducted a very risky longshot plan in that prisoner camp and with an ancient ship and still manages to beach the damn thing afterwards. Then there is the whole starbase gravity thing, that was reckless even for him and if he wasn't saved at the 11th hour by his fellow crewmate, he would of been sucking vacuum.

starswordc

mirrorchaos wrote: »

rattler2 wrote: »

starswordc wrote: »

Oh, please. In the first two movies Kelvin!Kirk is an arrogant, insubordinate, entitled whiny little prick who isn't worthy to command a wheelbarrow, never mind a ship capable of glassing inhabited worlds.

Which is due to not having a father figure. In Into Darkness he was kinda out for revenge after the man he did look up to was killed, but stuck to the law and the ideals of the Federation. He matured in Beyond and was less of a wildcard, especially after losing the Enterprise.

While me may have started out as the prick that you described... he did change through experience.

He didn't change that much, he still conducted a very risky longshot plan in that prisoner camp and with an ancient ship and still manages to beach the damn thing afterwards. Then there is the whole starbase gravity thing, that was reckless even for him and if he wasn't saved at the 11th hour by his fellow crewmate, he would of been sucking vacuum.

Yeah, but at least in Beyond he finally displays the professionalism he was missing in the previous two outings. I.e. he's actually credible as somebody Starfleet would've given a capital ship.

And no: daddy issues don't excuse being an entitled prick. The Academy isn't about giving a free ride to partying frat boys, it trains officers, officers who are expected to do such things as command spacers in combat and represent the Federation to foreign nations. You either shape up in first year, or they toss you out on your TRIBBLE. What he pulled in the opening of Into Whiteness should've gotten him court-martialed, not just because he broke the Prime Directive due to incompetence, but also because he lied about it, and incompetently at that.

rattler2

At least Kirk was better than how Anakin was portrayed in Star Wars Ep 2 and 3. My GOD that was horrible.

ryan218

rattler2 wrote: »

At least Kirk was better than how Anakin was portrayed in Star Wars Ep 2 and 3. My GOD that was horrible.

Not exactly setting the bar very high.

rattler2

Kirk at least evolved over time. Anakin, on the other hand, was a whiny, entitled brat through and through. Vader didn't get his badass back until Rogue One.

starkaos

rattler2 wrote: »

Kirk at least evolved over time. Anakin, on the other hand, was a whiny, entitled brat through and through. Vader didn't get his badass back until Rogue One.

And yet he is only a whiny b**** during the movies not the Clone Wars series. Kirk had the excuse of no experience due to gaining command of the Enterprise straight out of the Academy while TOS Kirk spent a few years rising up the ranks to gain command of the Enterprise.

luminaire

starkaos wrote: »

rattler2 wrote: »

Kirk at least evolved over time. Anakin, on the other hand, was a whiny, entitled brat through and through. Vader didn't get his badass back until Rogue One.

And yet he is only a whiny b**** during the movies not the Clone Wars series. Kirk had the excuse of no experience due to gaining command of the Enterprise straight out of the Academy while TOS Kirk spent a few years rising up the ranks to gain command of the Enterprise.

Hack writing isn't an excuse. It's one of the dumber things about the JJTrek Universe, that they had to do because they wanted the young, hip "College age" TOS crew...but also needed them to be in the positions everyone remembers from TOS, so for no apparent reason one of the changes brought by the timeline split is that Starfleet now makes it a policy to hand out state of the art starships to anyone who has completed a summer annex course at the Academy.

mirrorchaos

starswordc wrote: »

mirrorchaos wrote: »

rattler2 wrote: »

starswordc wrote: »

Oh, please. In the first two movies Kelvin!Kirk is an arrogant, insubordinate, entitled whiny little prick who isn't worthy to command a wheelbarrow, never mind a ship capable of glassing inhabited worlds.

Which is due to not having a father figure. In Into Darkness he was kinda out for revenge after the man he did look up to was killed, but stuck to the law and the ideals of the Federation. He matured in Beyond and was less of a wildcard, especially after losing the Enterprise.

While me may have started out as the prick that you described... he did change through experience.

He didn't change that much, he still conducted a very risky longshot plan in that prisoner camp and with an ancient ship and still manages to beach the damn thing afterwards. Then there is the whole starbase gravity thing, that was reckless even for him and if he wasn't saved at the 11th hour by his fellow crewmate, he would of been sucking vacuum.

Yeah, but at least in Beyond he finally displays the professionalism he was missing in the previous two outings. I.e. he's actually credible as somebody Starfleet would've given a capital ship.

professionalism requires reliability, discretion, the ability to organise properly and being fair, and yet all through beyond he showed:
-a lack of reliability due to his aggressiveness, entitled behavior and reckless streak.
-his organisational skills were haphazard at best and his plans were on the fly.
-he isn't exactly the soul of discretion anyway, more so since he still acted in a manner stood-out too much and it showed frequently.
-when has the jjkirk ever acted fair with others? his actions with spock, pike, uhura, scotty and his enemies left a lot to be desired.

sgtken60

I guess I am just different, at almost 59yrs young, I have seen my fair share of Sci-Fi shows - from Doctor Who to Star Trek. And I see all the stuff posted about this show or that, and how it does not follow canon or the Captain is worst than the last.

So for me all it matters that it is a Star Trek show, heck there was a time that TOS was NOT popular. I have enjoyed everyone of the ST Captains each one of them has done something to impress me - from Kirk to the New Captain Pike.

I.E. Like Sisko punching Q, one of my favorite moments of DS9.

But IF I would have to choose just one Captain it would have to be James T. Kirk. But that might because of all the great memories that I have of TOS, since it was the only Sci-Fi show my Dad would watch.

As far as Star Wars, well I will not post my opinion on them - LoL

marty123

I liked Enterprise, Humans have worked for nearly a century developing warp technology and finally we’ve made it to space, but there’s the sense of “wtf do we do know?”

jeff

marty123#3757 wrote: »

I liked Enterprise, Humans have worked for nearly a century developing warp technology and finally we’ve made it to space, but there’s the sense of “wtf do we do know?”

This...