Another Nerf Call - Hive Onslaught

lapprenticel

Another of everyone's favourite threads! I've not played Hive Onslaught in a while but it is\was the recent Endeavour mission so I queued for H.O. - Adv. after mistakenly queuing for (and beating) Infected: The Conduit - Adv. I was running a toon with MK IV er I mean MK XIV weapons and (IMHO) a decent ship, though there's room for improvement if I ever get back into STO more heavily. One of my teammates is Fleet and has a ship significantly more leveled than mine. Can't comment on the calibre of the other 3 but I'd say it was a fairly standard sort of group - not level 50's with MK XII's by any means, but not dps maxxers either. We got absolutely shredded! One guy quit before the failure of the first optional, and another 2 quit prior to the 2nd optional failure - which is something like 30 minutes in. I gave up sometime prior to that when the AI started spawn camping and it became impossible to survive long enough to flee combat. Yes I know fleeing combat isn't what the game's supposed to be about but it is the only viable option for a build that can't slug it out. As the 2nd last to quit I avoided the 30 minute leaver penalty, but it still rankles that we're encouraged to do a mission then get penalised when it proves impossibly hard unless we wait out pretty much everyone else. Replayed on normal difficulty and the mission took all of oh maybe 5 minutes and the only time I got blown out of space was when one of the command vessel's clipped me with it's death ray. Comparing the 2 versions it seems like H.O. Adv. is more like Elite when compared to the Normal version and needs some serious rebalancing!!!

Cue shrill screaming by angry dpsers?

peterconnorfirst

The only thing that bugs me about the difficulty settings in this game is that critter values of the same critters on the same difficulty are just not the same on different maps. Other than that I feel HS is alright balanced on Elite, Advanced and Normal.

Sure some fellow DPSer might argue that it could be made a lot harder but I rather play it with everybody than just with a dozen players in game who could handle it.

seaofsorrows

Yep, it's too hard for you so it must be too hard overall.

I'm going to propose an alternate idea to the OP and I am not being snyde or sarcastic here, I am being totally serious.. just hear me out.

You tried the map, it was really tough and you died a lot. Instead of pushing to change the map, how about pushing yourself instead? Make it a goal to do it better next time.. learn from your mistakes, adapt and find fun in the challenge.

Would that really be so bad? Is the idea of pushing yourself so awful that asking for a global change that effects the entirety of the player base a better option in your mind?

I am not going to lie to you.. yes.. Hive Advanced is a tough queue. As far as advanced queues go it's right there with Counterpoint as one of the toughest you can attempt. Is it impossible? Absolutely not.

Put away your 'nerf bat' and adapt. You had a rough time, try again. Push yourself to do better.. believe it or not, it's actually fun. If in the end it's still too much for you, then simply avoid the content. The queue doesn't need a nerf, it needs players willing to challenge themselves for once. If you just want a faceroll easy time there is plenty of content that fits that description.

tunebreaker

Git gud and mash spacebar harder.

I'm sorry, but given how we already had this discussion under another post made by you, I don't have the energy to answer with anything more productive.

ussvaliant

After running Hive Onslaught the only issue I can find with it extends to all NPC's that fire torpedo's or have some sort of Kinetic weaponry. The high crit value they can hit for and ability to one shot kill you or come pretty close to it can feel like the games using exploitive tactics. Terran Empire and Tzenkethi are the worst for this.

The mission itself is fine its NPC kinetic damage that's a problem I find

peterconnorfirst

ussvaliant#6064 wrote: »

After running Hive Onslaught the only issue I can find with it extends to all NPC's that fire torpedo's or have some sort of Kinetic weaponry. The high crit value they can hit for and ability to one shot kill you or come pretty close to it can feel like the games using exploitive tactics. Terran Empire and Tzenkethi are the worst for this.

The mission itself is fine its NPC kinetic damage that's a problem I find

I agree to that, at least from the perspective of the elite version of that map. For my tank the kinetic impacts can be handled by now but on other toons (also on other elite maps) I have big issues.

At the moment I hold back a bit and still wait it out if cryptic will adjust it or leave it be. Rest assured that if they don’t do anything about it there are some solid choices around to compensate. It will just cost a bit of DPS.

peterconnorfirst

Hey OP!

Please be very careful with the dangerous stuff @reyan01 writes about. I suspect that he is another of those evil DPSer in disguise.

seaofsorrows

reyan01 wrote: »

You say there is "room for improvement" - post your build in the academy section; you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Excellent advice.

Instead of concentrating on lowering the bar, concentrate on raising your own level.

chemistryset

HSA doesn´t need a nerf. That´s all.

warpangel

<yawn>

Unknown

This content has been removed.

vampeiyre

Me no like play things that deeps no kill. Me like hit button get stuff. Me mommy little helper, she say me handsome and smart.

where2r1

ussvaliant#6064 wrote: »

After running Hive Onslaught the only issue I can find with it extends to all NPC's that fire torpedo's or have some sort of Kinetic weaponry. The high crit value they can hit for and ability to one shot kill you or come pretty close to it can feel like the games using exploitive tactics. Terran Empire and Tzenkethi are the worst for this.

The mission itself is fine its NPC kinetic damage that's a problem I find

I agree....there is some oddities going on with NPC kinetic damage. I finally ran across this issue last night.
In a episode mission. On Normal.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

postagepaid

Hive onslaught in endeavour pugs is usually best taken at a steady pace forward clearing as you go.

Full impulse usually leads to ending up between a handful of cubes that rarely ends up in your favour regardless of what mark your gear is at.

spiritborn

I would say the real key to happiness here is to understand that there's always room for improvement and something is too hard for you it's not because the devs hate you personally but rather that you need to get better.

I used to think that best I could do was barely above getting AFK penalty, but Pete and others convinced me I could do better and while I'm still not even close to top DPS ranks I am decent (or so I'm told) and I can be in same groups with high DPS players and still feel I'm contributing to the fight and not just being there cause they needed a 5th member to the group.

peterconnorfirst

spiritborn wrote: »

I would say the real key to happiness here is to understand that there's always room for improvement and something is too hard for you it's not because the devs hate you personally but rather that you need to get better.

I used to think that best I could do was barely above getting AFK penalty, but Pete and others convinced me I could do better and while I'm still not even close to top DPS ranks I am decent (or so I'm told) and I can be in same groups with high DPS players and still feel I'm contributing to the fight and not just being there cause they needed a 5th member to the group.

Of course shim, I’m always happy when you sign up for PvE since you always do you part and the others in the team can count on your contribution.

Often in forums things get out of hand when anything DPS related is brought up. As to what the game expects of us it’s straight forward really:

- Bronze DPS (ISA 10k) and peeps are set for Advanced
- Silver DPS (ISA 40k) and peeps are set for general Elite (there may be one or two exceptions)
- Gold DPS (ISA 80k) and you can do it all
- Diamond DPS (ISA 160k) and you are in overkill mode

Judging from the stuff the game throws at us I don’t see anything in PvE that expects us to relay push stuff beyond 100k. Anything more is just there for me to take in order to be independent and not having to be too selective about the teams I choose. How far peeps want to push it is much more up to them than the game.

darkbladejk

The queue is fine where it's at and like most queues in this game, if you know what to do they fall easily enough. Elite is not made to be a cakewalk and is intended to be an end game difficulty. Unless you have your ducks in a row and know the queue, you don't need to be going into Elites as you will do more to hold back your team than actually help them purely do to the mechanics and requirements of the queue. Advanced is a bit more forgiving though even then I don't advise going in there until you have at least a basic of mk xii gear put together and know the queue. Normal however is where the learning is supposed to take place. You learn the basics there, then move to the higher versions of the queue. Not everything in this game can simply be zerged through

To be perfectly honest it sounds like you just got a group that wasn't ready for the content, which is going to happen from time to time with any random system, be it in STO, WoW, SWTOR or whichever. There's not much Cryptic or any other company can do about that.

spiritborn

darkbladejk wrote: »

To be perfectly honest it sounds like you just got a group that wasn't ready for the content, which is going to happen from time to time with any random system, be it in STO, WoW, SWTOR or whichever. There's not much Cryptic or any other company can do about that.

Well there is but it would be at expense of the enjoyment of everyone else as the solution would be to make the queues so easy that you'd have to go out of your way to fail them if it was possible even then. That said I doubt that many people would find that all that enjoyable, after all overcoming a challenge is much more enjoyble then ticking a box.

theraven2378

It's my build testing ground, I like the fact it's no walk over

leemwatson

theraven2378 wrote: »

It's my build testing ground, I like the fact it's no walk over

^^This.

Normal difficulty should be a walk-over for most, not Advanced. The amount of times someone has said 'I got killed by a torp' and I find they have no Armour consoles on.

But as per usual, I find myself asking the OP, why is it okay for you to vape NPC's, but not vice versa?

bossheisenberg

lapprenticel wrote: »

Another of everyone's favourite threads! I've not played Hive Onslaught in a while but it is\was the recent Endeavour mission so I queued for H.O. - Adv. after mistakenly queuing for (and beating) Infected: The Conduit - Adv. I was running a toon with MK IV er I mean MK XIV weapons and (IMHO) a decent ship, though there's room for improvement if I ever get back into STO more heavily. One of my teammates is Fleet and has a ship significantly more leveled than mine. Can't comment on the calibre of the other 3 but I'd say it was a fairly standard sort of group - not level 50's with MK XII's by any means, but not dps maxxers either. We got absolutely shredded! One guy quit before the failure of the first optional, and another 2 quit prior to the 2nd optional failure - which is something like 30 minutes in. I gave up sometime prior to that when the AI started spawn camping and it became impossible to survive long enough to flee combat. Yes I know fleeing combat isn't what the game's supposed to be about but it is the only viable option for a build that can't slug it out. As the 2nd last to quit I avoided the 30 minute leaver penalty, but it still rankles that we're encouraged to do a mission then get penalised when it proves impossibly hard unless we wait out pretty much everyone else. Replayed on normal difficulty and the mission took all of oh maybe 5 minutes and the only time I got blown out of space was when one of the command vessel's clipped me with it's death ray. Comparing the 2 versions it seems like H.O. Adv. is more like Elite when compared to the Normal version and needs some serious rebalancing!!!

Cue shrill screaming by angry dpsers?

The endeavor is not mandatory - you want to nerf one of the only queues left that is actually challenging because you aren't good enough to beat it in a pug run?

"We got absolutely shredded!" - I bet! Good! Noobs shall not pass! Not all the game's content should be accessible to the novice player. There are players who spend countless hours in HSE testing their builds, but you want to waltz in with no practice and help yourself to the spoils?

where2r1

Well, it just sounds like Cryptic made a bad choice of mission for Endeavors system, as it currently stands.
It probably doesn't need to be looked at any further than that.

rimmarie

If its too hard for you, then maybe you should...
i don't know..
maybe..
skip that Endeavor?

cause it sounds like you are not ready grasshopper, you need moar training

I regularly skip that 'Dance at Nimbus' one. cause I will NEVER dance for that cat! NEVER!

asuran14

I would never say nerfing any content is a good idea, unless it is performing under what the devs developed it to fit into. For me it is just a lack of appealing an worthwhile rewards of the increase in challenge/difficulty, and so like with most other ques a change to address the reward system would be about all needed. There will always be many that see doing higher challenge/difficulty content thru improving their ship/character as enough reward, but you will also have alot of players that need more to appeal to them to improve an do that content over other content. It is good to have two or three tiers of content difficulty even within the same general difficulty setting, but having all fo these give the same general reward (dil, credit/marks) can create a mentality of viewing those other difficulties as wasted effort an time (both to do and even progress to being able to do them) compared o jut doing other difficulties an content.

lapprenticel

I don't play Elite as my ships aren't designed for it, I don't team queue, and I don't have any interest in that level of play. What I initially played was the Advanced queue, except it felt more like an Elite map - the NPCs just shred you. Contrast that with Normal where players generally shred the NPCs. That disparity suggests the Advanced map is grossly imbalanced. You suggested at least MK XII gear, but as I noted I was using MK XIV weapons which suggests the Advanced map requires an absolute minimum of MK XIV gear.

Yes it's possible the group I was placed with wasn't ready for Advanced, but that seems to be the case every time Hive Onslaught is listed as an Endeavour mission. And if players, including myself, are getting tricked into playing a Hive Onslaught they aren't ready for then there ought to be no leaver penalty as players get doubly penalised otherwise - a highly frustrating game followed by a temporary ban unless they're the last or so to leave which generally means enduring an extensive period of frustration or going AFK and grabbing a coffee or something while you wait for the others in the group to accept the penalty instead.

darkbladejk wrote: »

The queue is fine where it's at and like most queues in this game, if you know what to do they fall easily enough. Elite is not made to be a cakewalk and is intended to be an end game difficulty. Unless you have your ducks in a row and know the queue, you don't need to be going into Elites as you will do more to hold back your team than actually help them purely do to the mechanics and requirements of the queue. Advanced is a bit more forgiving though even then I don't advise going in there until you have at least a basic of mk xii gear put together and know the queue. Normal however is where the learning is supposed to take place. You learn the basics there, then move to the higher versions of the queue. Not everything in this game can simply be zerged through

To be perfectly honest it sounds like you just got a group that wasn't ready for the content, which is going to happen from time to time with any random system, be it in STO, WoW, SWTOR or whichever. There's not much Cryptic or any other company can do about that.

peterconnorfirst

lapprenticel wrote: »

I don't play Elite as my ships aren't designed for it, I don't team queue, and I don't have any interest in that level of play. What I initially played was the Advanced queue, except it felt more like an Elite map - the NPCs just shred you. Contrast that with Normal where players generally shred the NPCs. That disparity suggests the Advanced map is grossly imbalanced. You suggested at least MK XII gear, but as I noted I was using MK XIV weapons which suggests the Advanced map requires an absolute minimum of MK XIV gear.

Yes it's possible the group I was placed with wasn't ready for Advanced, but that seems to be the case every time Hive Onslaught is listed as an Endeavour mission. And if players, including myself, are getting tricked into playing a Hive Onslaught they aren't ready for then there ought to be no leaver penalty as players get doubly penalised otherwise - a highly frustrating game followed by a temporary ban unless they're the last or so to leave which generally means enduring an extensive period of frustration or going AFK and grabbing a coffee or something while you wait for the others in the group to accept the penalty instead.

darkbladejk wrote: »

The queue is fine where it's at and like most queues in this game, if you know what to do they fall easily enough. Elite is not made to be a cakewalk and is intended to be an end game difficulty. Unless you have your ducks in a row and know the queue, you don't need to be going into Elites as you will do more to hold back your team than actually help them purely do to the mechanics and requirements of the queue. Advanced is a bit more forgiving though even then I don't advise going in there until you have at least a basic of mk xii gear put together and know the queue. Normal however is where the learning is supposed to take place. You learn the basics there, then move to the higher versions of the queue. Not everything in this game can simply be zerged through

To be perfectly honest it sounds like you just got a group that wasn't ready for the content, which is going to happen from time to time with any random system, be it in STO, WoW, SWTOR or whichever. There's not much Cryptic or any other company can do about that.

Then try out normal mode on that endeavor next time. Should get it done as well.

seaofsorrows

where2r1 wrote: »

Well, it just sounds like Cryptic made a bad choice of mission for Endeavors system

I am a little torn on my opinion here, but I think I am leaning your way on this one.

Part of me wants to say that we need more reasons like this to encourage players to push themselves but the reality is that I know that doesn't work. When you try to push players to improve they usually just retreat further away. Increasing ones performance is something that can only be done because the individual wants to do better. It's not something you can really encourage by offering a 'carrot' such as it is for engaging in harder content.

The honest truth is that Hive even in the advanced form is simply too difficult for a large portion of the player base. Encouraging them to play it anyway is probably not going to change that. The obvious best solution is for players who just want the endeavor to play the normal mode instead, but that doesn't work either because for whatever reason no one plays normal even if the advanced is too hard.

Instead of moving down to normal, they start multiple threads asking for the advanced level to be reduced to a laughable level so that they can feel good about themselves being able to play it. Some people will not be happy unless there is absolutely no challenge in this game at all.

The Hive Queue probably is not a good choice for an Endeavor. They should stick to things like farming materials in space or completing Academy Lore missions. Then everyone gets fuzzy feelings of accomplishment when they get their easy reward.

salazarraze

Like I always say with advanced, if you find that advanced is too hard, play normal. Normal was made for you.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

alexraptorr

Hive is fine, if anything we need more of the queues to be on the same level.
But god forbid players should actually have to think about how they build their characters and compose their teams. I mean god forbid a dedicated tank should actually be needed.