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@Cryptic: Operation Gamma to hard for new players on normal.
doctorstegi
Member Posts: 1,193 Arc User
I know it sounds kinda stupid but one of our fleet members gave up on this mission. After making some fun of him I decided to try it myself under the same circumstances. I disabled all my space and starship traits, i changed my personal space traits to the regular free ones and disabled specializations and doff system. I did use some mix between green and purple mk xii gear on a standard Shuttle.
The Jem'Hadar attacking you with dual cannons and quantum torpedoes while you shields get fast drained the quantum's shot at you don't really care if you got shields on or not. It took me (a Veteran Player) several tries to get through the first part and past the attack ship. I don't know how you guys to expect new players to get through there. The character used was a science on LVL 65.
Of course the mission has 0 challenge when i go in there with a mk xv geared toon with rep system, all the traits bells and whistles.
The reason i post that is because the our new player nearly quit this game cause he wasted half a day on this one mission and wonder if you guys could test this missions under the same circumstances to maybe adjust the Jem'Hadar Fighters.
The Jem'Hadar attacking you with dual cannons and quantum torpedoes while you shields get fast drained the quantum's shot at you don't really care if you got shields on or not. It took me (a Veteran Player) several tries to get through the first part and past the attack ship. I don't know how you guys to expect new players to get through there. The character used was a science on LVL 65.
Of course the mission has 0 challenge when i go in there with a mk xv geared toon with rep system, all the traits bells and whistles.
The reason i post that is because the our new player nearly quit this game cause he wasted half a day on this one mission and wonder if you guys could test this missions under the same circumstances to maybe adjust the Jem'Hadar Fighters.
C-Store Inc. is still looking for active members on the fed side. If you don't have a fleet feel free to contact me in game @stegi.
Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
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Did the shuttle have any mark XII consoles like a neutronium + shield buff + tactical console?
You could also use a turret (from doff diplomacy) or the scorpions from The Vault.
I agree though that it's one of the harder ones for many people, especially since they are in a shuttle they might have only used once or twice before then.
There seems to be a crushingly bad scaling issue with level 60-65 in normal missions. Enemies do high damage(absurd with torpedoes, see my post in the bugs section on 30k-80k torpedo hits, and I'm not talking targetable torpedoes) and take much more than you'd expect. It's like, durability wise, they are for people who have mk 14 weapons or at least high damage bridge officer abilities.
Effectively normal mode seems more like it's where advanced should probably be at level 65. And even then, torpedoes doing such extreme damage seems to have gotten to absurd amounts that it all but guarantees a lot of deaths that the player will certainly have been left feeling there was nothing they could do.
Sometimes I think the devs seriously need to watch this video because of how badly the enemies are scaling 60-65.
All the hard games that are popular tend to follow those rules. I think cryptic should simply cause all they've done is create a cliff and a brick wall that feels punishing rather than challenging.
Edit: I'd even say this game feels HARDER than dark souls, without being fun at that level.
Thinking of ideas from lots of games for, dunno how long now.
Best thing to do for now is report it in the feedback or bugs section and give the player a helping hand whenever he needs it. Hopefully he realizes that there's no shame in accepting help. Even on normal difficulty.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Died 3 times on the first phase but got all the workbees in time despite an unlucky respawn delay cutting a bit close on the last one. Died once against the attack ship.
Considering that disabling all the "bells and whistles" on a level 65 actually makes it much harder than a real low-level toon due to scaling, I don't think that's bad at all. It would've been easy at level 43.
And besides knowing to shoot the workbees first and to circle behind the enemies to avoid their forward weapons, there isn't really any veteran knowledge involved either.
So no, I don't think there's anything wrong with the mission. If your fleetmate is having trouble with it, I recommend teaming up and doing it together.
Some kind of AoE helps a lot. Even a turret would help out a lot.
I admit that I haven't tried it since ViL, but I plan to when my JHs start doing the mission sims now that I've finally gotten them through ViL.
At its native level, it isn't really very challenging at all, but starting at around level 55, and especially at level 65, like how Jem'Hadar have to do it, it ramps up a lot, as do all shuttle missions and most missions with a preset ship. The scaling is off a bit, or at least assumes that you've upgraded things beyond Mk XII.
You have to consider that newbies are not likely to have omni weapons nore best equipment. They may not even find missions where you could get the gear that'd help most with this mission to be all that doable.
There is a fine line between "challenging" and "punishing". When players are finding it such you have to have a 2 million EC weapon, are getting one shot by a lucky torpedo and generally unapproachable with 4-5 days grinding EC on tours of the galaxy ect just to be able to do ONE mission I say the line has been crossed. It's a massive difficulty spike. It doesn't help that the game doesn't teach things like the value of shield resistances(especially vs high damage torps including the 30-80k untargetable photon torp or similar) or consoles so when they get that high they hit a brick wall.
Seems to me that, with the scaling broken as it is, that double exp is more of a curse than a blessing and we are seeing people pay for it. Leveling faster = bad in this situation.
That said I have seen some good suggestions for someone in a situation like this where they have to do this mission at 65. Seems to me that doing the breen missions is probably better done early and as efficiently as possible rather than putting them off so they are done at a lower level. Team up with someone who has a more powerful level 65 fit-for-combat setup.
Thinking of ideas from lots of games for, dunno how long now.
ingame: @Felisean
FYI, shuttles come with an omni beam-S, or you can use a turret.
It's not broken at all. Just focus on the Worker Bees. If people are struggle with surviving it, equip an Armour Console AND Hazard Emitters.
The mission is easy for me to play with regular gear ect... So yeah from that point of view its not even challenging, however for somebody who just started the game is a complete different story and that's what the mission should be judged by when played on the easiest level. There is a reason for why we have difficulty levels like normal, advanced and elite. But if a mission is that hard on normal for a player who just started playing the game then it is not right.
I also shouldn't expect a new player to play missions who come in later arcs to get gear for the arc he currently is on. I hope the new system will fix these issues.
Even though I don't have any issue with Advance, that doesn't mean I am against Normal being too hard for players. I don't know how their normal to advance and elite works in this game but I don't want normal being easier to dumb down advance unless they ensure there is a full list of elite queues. The real question is... Are the majority of players playing this queue on normal having issues playing through it?
And how many new players are going to have the best neutronium armor console for that? Or mk14+ weapons when they don't drop anymore past 50 as some have said? This game has become punishing past 50 end of story on that. Besides not really teaching players tools to deal with things, it stops rewarding those tools and expects them to grind tons of dilithium and energy credits to upgrade things. Equipment less than 14 is unfit for combat, just as well say ships with mk12 stuff just as well be made of cardboard.
It's not just this mission which feels unapproachable. I was just going through "Minescape" and besides the strange fact the game forced me into using Tovan when I'd have rather used a much better equipped science officer I had, I was seeing cooper do 500-800 damage/hit with his main antiproton attack. I got killed inspite religious use of phasic shroud and nanite health monitor and as many defenses as I could muster. I feel there was no way I could have done it better, and that is what angers and annoys me about this game and the scaling at 65. In fact I am honestly seriously reconsidering touching this game anymore, it does nothing but fill me with rage as it's not fun anymore.
And course, I took in both attempts to get through the mission 100% deathless(from last checkpoint, I'm not satisfied with getting through anything after a respawn); torpedo(undodgable+untargetable one) taking me from full hull and shields to 20-30% health in space combat(so I tried to let voyager do most of the work) and that was with emergency power to shields 3 up. How are people expecting newcomers to stick around this game when the game does this to them with no warning or telegraphing routinely?
In fact it feels that near every other mission once you hit 65 is an unfair slog thats just insanely hard for no good reasons. Even with a very good bridge officer setup and stacked to the defenses it feels like without being loaded with max gear the game just sucks.
Torpedoes near or totally one-shotting the t-5 ships the newbies are likely to be flying, some bosses in ground combat one shotting you and even the bridge officers repeatedly, enemies not really following the rules, players not given enough tools to work with at first(newbies aren't given any kind of training manuals for useful bridge off skills and only have tour the galaxy for energy credits to get the bridge officer abilities that are important nore told where to get sufficient EC to buy those training manuals)....
This game consequently feels punishing. Like cryptic is trying to defeat players and make them lose rather than challenge them, which is why I shared the video above. That applies to everything when any amount of difficulty is apparent. Cryptic needs to learn that, they should be WANTING players to succeed inspite any difficulty, rather than simply keeping them from succeeding.
Also a player shouldn't have to respawn to beat a mission. That just makes it feel "cheap". Like theres no way you could win fairly so the game is allowing you to cheat through it. That isn't good.
Thinking of ideas from lots of games for, dunno how long now.
It's not a queue, it's a regular mission your expected to be able to solo. I'm noticing that outside of queues, the game is absurd in it's scaling in normal missions right now. Enough that new players quitting and feeling it's far to hard is actually extremely understandable. Sure it's much easier when you have all your reps and gear and whatnot but there is a massive power level difference between someone who just got to the 60s on the very first character with only mk12 gear and no reps, and someone who has near every rep, mk15 and t6 ships.
Near every newbie I'm seeing online is having huge problems like this. Including me about a month ago and even then on chars without reps or mk14+ gear I still struggle for the wrong reasons.
Thinking of ideas from lots of games for, dunno how long now.
Oh. I thought the thread about about the PvE queue. I haven't really bothered with the Jem stuff. When we got the Delta stuff though, content was unbalanced for a while at first though. PWE basically does it to push people into spending money.
#1 thing with workbees is to face center before activating nodes. Makes it a lot easier to target them before they make it to the nodes.
My character Tsin'xing
Bro..! You are speaking out of my heart and soul!!!
It is exactly as you said. I can sign every word you wrote!!!
Best regards
Cryptic seem to have eventually noticed that but the response was to "streamline" the missions instead so a levelling player will hit higher missions sooner and if they go back in theory will have the gear to cope better.
Flaw in that thinking though is that fewer missions means fewer rewards and forcing people to rerun things over and over should really be a last resort for stuff that isn't the set gear.
Be careful what you wish for.
This is an MMORPG, repeating everything should be standard. I'd have put the set items as 10% random drops.