I went ahead and patched my launcher and signed in today. It wasn't as bad as most have made it out to be.
Yes I can see it being incredibly annoying when it pops up on character change, with lots of characters, but all I'm doing right now is the MI on two accts, so it really isn't that big of an annoyance. I don't even have to do anything when exiting the game except exit even though it pops up on pressing the esc key.
All in all, I've seen a lot of overreacting, IMO.
Now a LTS and loving it.
Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,559Community Moderator
You know... something like a PADD interface. This is a Star Trek game after all. Maybe the team could actually get creative and literally have your character pull out a PADD on the first login and put that PADD up in view to look at (like a first person view) and review the content PWE wants us to see. Once we click to close it, it gets put away and we get to continue on our grind.
Pretty clever idea. Would probably work better if this was a 1st person game rather than the 3rd person it is. Not only that, but you can't visibly pull out a PADD in game if you log in out in space.
But I kinda do like the idea of changing the window to look more like a PADD interface. Now... we're gonna end up with 4-5 diffent PADD frames though if we go that route as there would be Federation, TOS, Klingon, Romulan, and Dominion...
Have we seen a Dominion PADD before? I don't remember. I know we saw Bajoran and Cardassian...
This is why the devs don't take the forums seriously. It's just a landing page, not the end of the world. It could be a picture of flying monkey waste and still not be worth anywhere near this much drama. They'll fix the repetition eventually, until then just close it.
The one thing it really does need to display is events. Those are the #1 source of "why wasn't I informed of this" -threads.
And moving the exit menu a few inches to the left is absolutely no issue whatsoever.
You know... something like a PADD interface. This is a Star Trek game after all. Maybe the team could actually get creative and literally have your character pull out a PADD on the first login and put that PADD up in view to look at (like a first person view) and review the content PWE wants us to see. Once we click to close it, it gets put away and we get to continue on our grind.
Pretty clever idea. Would probably work better if this was a 1st person game rather than the 3rd person it is. Not only that, but you can't visibly pull out a PADD in game if you log in out in space.
But I kinda do like the idea of changing the window to look more like a PADD interface. Now... we're gonna end up with 4-5 diffent PADD frames though if we go that route as there would be Federation, TOS, Klingon, Romulan, and Dominion...
Have we seen a Dominion PADD before? I don't remember. I know we saw Bajoran and Cardassian...
If your character is in space, they could have it pop up as a hail with your camera zooming in through the Bridge window and right on to the viewscreen.
Once upon a time, there was a first person toggle for ground. I think it is still there but it was so poorly done, I couldn't stand using it. The Dominion has those awesome monocular things that the camera could zoom into. I don't recall a Cardassian PADD off hand either but they could always design one if one doesn't exist.
Either way, it seems like there hasn't been a lot of thought put into the whole idea. PWE doesn't give the players enough credit when it comes to our feedback! If they would have posted something in the news area a couple of months ago asking us how they could have done this in a way that the players wouldn't actually mind. They could have fished through the thread, selected the ideas they wanted, and did it right.
Absolutely. And my personal opinion happens to agree with your suggestions.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
Move the menu somewhere it won't be a bother to us, like the aforementioned J key menu (Even though that menu already gives us all the information the new clustertruck UI brings). Having it in the Esc menu is a terrible decision and annoys me every time I see it.
As for the information in the menu? Maybe instead of listing month old updates and missions, it could list the **events and sales that were already running on launch**. I mean, DOff infinity is on, Mirror Invasion is up, but nooo. Better put that sweet sweet key and minefield up instead.
And how about information that players are going to ALWAYS be looking for, during event periods and not? How about dilithium numbers, time to next refine/mark bonus/Admirality mission completion? Reputation project finish time? Show us the current endeavor?
All of this is stuff people will actually be looking to find, rather than "Play this month old mission" and "Here's details on a queue that's been massively overshadowed by another".
There is no need "Welcome to Star Trek Online" when u try to LOG OUT or EXIT game.
plz REMOVE it from ESC menu, or make additional "Welcome to STO" tap in ESC menu (and only when u press it ull see this pop-up).
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,559Community Moderator
I decided to cycle through this thread and count the number of different posters and their general feelings about the landing page. Mind you, I counted names and not number of posts. So if one person posted a lot, they were only counted once. Obviously, these are the numbers so far, and anyone posting after this are not counted. Also, these are my findings before any potential edits and such.
Number of posters asking for the landing page to be removed: 22
Number of posters asking for an option to disable it: 44
Number of posters with negative feelings about the landing page that did not ask for it's removal nor ask for a disable option: 34
Number of posters who want the landing page modified: 16
Number of posters who were "cast into Gre'thor" by baddmoonrizin: 6
Number of posts by baddmoonrizin warning the community of forum rules: 3
Number of posters who have positive feelings about the landing page, including anyone who said they like it, were actively defending it in the thread, and (to be generous) anyone who said it's not as bad as people say: 6
If anyone disagrees with my findings, please, feel free to recount the posters yourself. Better yet, start a poll. For now, I think I'll just leave these numbers here.
Wow Cryptic! You really know how to anger your user base. I am a veteran player & this new "feature" is just plain annoying. I don't need to see this every time I logon with any of my toons. Please add an option to disable it.
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,559Community Moderator
Statistics on a forum can also be unreliable as well. Especially when unnecessary drama is a factor.
Survey says:
Probably not helpful, but interesting numbers. You sir... have Garumba for taking the time to note all that.
If anyone disagrees with my findings, please, feel free to recount the posters yourself. Better yet, start a poll. For now, I think I'll just leave these numbers here.
Fun fact: statistics is a complex discipline that requires thorough experimental design to be carried out effectively. Point you may want to consider: sampling bias. We're discussing a feature in a venue which is designed makes landing pages unnecessary as a critical information dump. Ie. a website. The folks you find here will be much more likely to find landing pages unnecessary for this game. The interaction between these users may also result in an autocorrelation in responses (an interaction in addition to the main effect). That, in turn, will have an unaccounted for impact on your numbers, rendering them incapable of delivering an accurate picture of what the effect is on the game's total population (who typically is in greater need of basic information.) The numbers may still be able to deliver you to the same yes/no answer, but that is technically an assumption whose validity depends on the quality of the judgement call the numbers were intended to test.
Now that's not to say that this feature isn't massively unpopular (refuting a lack of reliable evidence isn't evidence in favor of an alternative). It is to say though that if you're going to start throwing numbers around one should also start adopting procedures and controls too. Otherwise, the violations to scientific principle will do more to undermine the case that the landing page should be changed/removed than the numbers will help it. In the absence of good experimental design, you may as well go with a judgement call and avoid the appearance of misrepresenting data.
Ie. look at the thread, get a sense for patterns, aggregate accordingly with context in mind. The human brain is adapted for that type of operation.
TL/DR: SCIENCE IS NOT FOR THE FEINT OF HEART
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Number of posters asking for the landing page to be removed: 22
Number of posters asking for an option to disable it: 44
Number of posters with negative feelings about the landing page that did not ask for it's removal nor ask for a disable option: 34
Number of posters who want the landing page modified: 16
Number of posters who have positive feelings about the landing page, including anyone who said they like it, were actively defending it in the thread, and (to be generous) anyone who said it's not as bad as people say: 6
I'd say this is representative of the playerbase, though I believe if one expresses negative opinions on the landing page it's safe to assume they would support it's removal/disabling.
NO to ARC RIP KDF and PvP 2014-07-17 Season 9.5 - Death by Dev
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,559Community Moderator
I'd say this is representative of the playerbase, though I believe if one expresses negative opinions on the landing page it's safe to assume they would support it's removal/disabling.
Perhaps, but at the same time some of the reasoning is totally irrational, focusing on conspiracy theories about the purpose behind it or hatred over just one aspect of it alone as if it is the only thing that matters.
Something I just noticed is that this new landing page is only popping for my higher level toons so I think that it is being targeted at more experienced players and whales. It just seems like a blatant attempt to encourage us to spend more money by annoying us. This will not work on me.
Something I just noticed is that this new landing page is only popping for my higher level toons so I think that it is being targeted at more experienced players and whales. It just seems like a blatant attempt to encourage us to spend more money by annoying us. This will not work on me.
i think the new 'landing page' hase been the cause of a few crashes on my log into a character. just get in , no landing page, i move or do somthing, then crash!
I'd say this is representative of the playerbase, though I believe if one expresses negative opinions on the landing page it's safe to assume they would support it's removal/disabling.
Perhaps, but at the same time some of the reasoning is totally irrational, focusing on conspiracy theories about the purpose behind it or hatred over just one aspect of it alone as if it is the only thing that matters.
Conspiracy theories? Did I miss something in the last 10 pages or are you just parroting a term that was used in somebody else's post?
It almost seems that any negative feedback or alternative explanations, even when given in a respectful manner, are being labelled all sorts of interesting things in an effort to quell or dispel them. In a way it's admirable some folks are so protective of the game they love, but also consider that many of the people reacting strongly in the negative or providing alternative explanations are equally passionate about STO. I would agree though that some of the posts were inappropriate and look forward to it being changed as stated to appear once per account, not per character.
Edit: it looks like somebody else has already dug into the marketing and promotional aspects. Cheers for that. It was what I was hinting at last page when I was offered a tin foil hat. After two weeks of seeing it per character, you'll be grateful for any small change. Mission accomplished.
i think the new 'landing page' hase been the cause of a few crashes on my log into a character. just get in , no landing page, i move or do somthing, then crash!
Not related to the landing page. Have heard multiple reports of CTD's and have experienced a few myself, even after the 5/11/18 patch related to this issue.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,559Community Moderator
Conspiracy theories? Did I miss something in the last 10 pages or are you just parroting a term that was used in somebody else's post?
"Targeted at whales"
"ONLY purpose is to shove ads for lockbox keys in our faces"
"ONLY purpose is to make us spend money"
THAT's where the conspiracy theories come in. Completely ignoring the fact this could keep players up to date on other things, and focusing solely on the monetization.
There've been a few rampant conspiracies in this thread regarding the "purpose" of the landing page, usually something dark and devious passed down from the overlords on high to the Dev Team.
I'm surprised someone isn't coming up with the wild theory that its gonna start costing zen to see anything other than the landing screen at this rate.
If I'm coming across as irritated right now... I kinda am.
Most of the feedback is people want it gone or the power to turn it off. Its unneeded and worthless at the end of the day. If a player can't hit the J key see whats going on in game then they are to lazy to help.
Yea that was exactly my comment. I mean if they wanted a welcome page that only popped up on login I'm fine with how it is now.
But then I have to immediately ask the question isn't that what HAIL or J should already provide? Perhaps make Calendar stand out a bit more; but then all they'd need to do is update HAPPENING THIS WEEKEND to be NEWS &/OR PROMOTIONS with left & right scroll buttons.
But I'm trying to stay positive... hoping that binding the login to the main menu or being present every time I hit ESC is likely a bit much. I just want a simple small dialog centered in the center of the screen like we had before when I hit ESC to logout or change character.
Perhaps, but at the same time some of the reasoning is totally irrational, focusing on conspiracy theories about the purpose behind it or hatred over just one aspect of it alone as if it is the only thing that matters.
Indeed, a survey doesn't justify complex opinions. It's simply a tool for data analysis under the categorization method used. You can look at a survey and say "hey, X out of Y folks agree with me. So long as that frequency is greater than 0.50, I'm in the right" but what you may find is that the original reasoning behind some of those responses (having simplified complex opinion into discrete categories) is less than substantial. They don't become more substantial by association with earnest feedback that incidentally happens to agree with them.
Thus, what an opinion survey or a poll on a forum describes is the demographics of an argument. That can be useful to passively describe trends (assuming of course that you have a sufficient sample size for valid statistical inferences) but it does not replace argumentation. That must still stand on its own merits and endure critical review for a consensus. I don't think there's much chance of mistaking what that consensus is here. Hence: folks should not worry about the numbers, just have a discussion.
PS. why does the cardi padd look so delicious? There's a tardigrade joke here somewhere, not sure if I see it yet.
I mean if they wanted a welcome to feature why not just open J on first login each day. Perhaps make Calendar stand out a bit more; but then all they'd need to do is update HAPPENING THIS WEEKEND to be NEWS &/OR PROMOTIONS with left & right scroll buttons.
Also: update the now generic PVE listing to promote the latest queue or queues. PVP might also be able to get away with a smaller text based button to make room for other changes (the current art isn't essential to selling the experience, fairly nondescript but that's simply my take on it.)
Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Conspiracy theories? Did I miss something in the last 10 pages or are you just parroting a term that was used in somebody else's post?
"Targeted at whales"
"ONLY purpose is to shove ads for lockbox keys in our faces"
"ONLY purpose is to make us spend money"
THAT's where the conspiracy theories come in. Completely ignoring the fact this could keep players up to date on other things, and focusing solely on the monetization.
There've been a few rampant conspiracies in this thread regarding the "purpose" of the landing page, usually something dark and devious passed down from the overlords on high to the Dev Team.
I'm surprised someone isn't coming up with the wild theory that its gonna start costing zen to see anything other than the landing screen at this rate.
If I'm coming across as irritated right now... I kinda am.
I'll recheck the posts prior to the term first being used. Please accept my apologies if I came across wrong. Am also mildly irritated as in missing those references I may have come to the inappropriate conclusion that the reference was aimed squarely at me (I didn't suggest any of what you mentioned). It's a long thread. It is a business though and I don't discount that marketing will be one of it's uses. I am in-game and can see the C-store link is only a small portion of the landing and would expect it to it to be there.
I do stand behind everything below the horizontal line in my last post. Sometimes it seems almost like mentioning certain things is almost forbidden (perhaps unpopular would be a better term), which is why I personally don't like people's views being labelled as conspiracy theories, even the ones you included in your post.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,559Community Moderator
Apology accepted.
And yea... there have been some instances of people focusing on that one corner alone as if its everything. And some people have actually attacked others who don't agree. Makes them come off looking like Crusaders, and not willing to listen to reason or even outside opinions.
On the forums there are a few hot button topics. Two of which (Enterprise and the Kelvin Timeline) aren't as hot as they used to be. Others like Discovery and in some cases the direction of the game are red hot and tend to polarize the community almost as much as the current political climate in Washington DC.
Aweful addition not worth the effort you put in to impliment.
Does not even have a calander or information regarding current events. The whats new section gets enough attention because it flashes endlessly when a new mod comes out pointless to have on the landing page.
Comments
Yes I can see it being incredibly annoying when it pops up on character change, with lots of characters, but all I'm doing right now is the MI on two accts, so it really isn't that big of an annoyance. I don't even have to do anything when exiting the game except exit even though it pops up on pressing the esc key.
All in all, I've seen a lot of overreacting, IMO.
Pretty clever idea. Would probably work better if this was a 1st person game rather than the 3rd person it is. Not only that, but you can't visibly pull out a PADD in game if you log in out in space.
But I kinda do like the idea of changing the window to look more like a PADD interface. Now... we're gonna end up with 4-5 diffent PADD frames though if we go that route as there would be Federation, TOS, Klingon, Romulan, and Dominion...
Have we seen a Dominion PADD before? I don't remember. I know we saw Bajoran and Cardassian...
The one thing it really does need to display is events. Those are the #1 source of "why wasn't I informed of this" -threads.
And moving the exit menu a few inches to the left is absolutely no issue whatsoever.
If your character is in space, they could have it pop up as a hail with your camera zooming in through the Bridge window and right on to the viewscreen.
Once upon a time, there was a first person toggle for ground. I think it is still there but it was so poorly done, I couldn't stand using it. The Dominion has those awesome monocular things that the camera could zoom into. I don't recall a Cardassian PADD off hand either but they could always design one if one doesn't exist.
Either way, it seems like there hasn't been a lot of thought put into the whole idea. PWE doesn't give the players enough credit when it comes to our feedback! If they would have posted something in the news area a couple of months ago asking us how they could have done this in a way that the players wouldn't actually mind. They could have fished through the thread, selected the ideas they wanted, and did it right.
And... behold. Cardi PADD.
Absolutely. And my personal opinion happens to agree with your suggestions.
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As for the information in the menu? Maybe instead of listing month old updates and missions, it could list the **events and sales that were already running on launch**. I mean, DOff infinity is on, Mirror Invasion is up, but nooo. Better put that sweet sweet key and minefield up instead.
And how about information that players are going to ALWAYS be looking for, during event periods and not? How about dilithium numbers, time to next refine/mark bonus/Admirality mission completion? Reputation project finish time? Show us the current endeavor?
All of this is stuff people will actually be looking to find, rather than "Play this month old mission" and "Here's details on a queue that's been massively overshadowed by another".
plz REMOVE it from ESC menu, or make additional "Welcome to STO" tap in ESC menu (and only when u press it ull see this pop-up).
Number of posters asking for the landing page to be removed: 22
Number of posters asking for an option to disable it: 44
Number of posters with negative feelings about the landing page that did not ask for it's removal nor ask for a disable option: 34
Number of posters who want the landing page modified: 16
Number of posters who were "cast into Gre'thor" by baddmoonrizin: 6
Number of posts by baddmoonrizin warning the community of forum rules: 3
Number of posters who have positive feelings about the landing page, including anyone who said they like it, were actively defending it in the thread, and (to be generous) anyone who said it's not as bad as people say: 6
If anyone disagrees with my findings, please, feel free to recount the posters yourself. Better yet, start a poll. For now, I think I'll just leave these numbers here.
Fed/Vulcan: T'jar Voltek Fleet: Section 31
Fed/Andorian: Lissan Ek'Noor sh'Aqabaa Fleet: Section 31
KDF/Cardi: K'Im Qah da Sian Fleet: Klingon Intelligence
KDF/Reman: R'Chras Jonzor Fleet: Klingon Intelligence
Survey says:
Probably not helpful, but interesting numbers. You sir... have Garumba for taking the time to note all that.
Fun fact: statistics is a complex discipline that requires thorough experimental design to be carried out effectively. Point you may want to consider: sampling bias. We're discussing a feature in a venue which is designed makes landing pages unnecessary as a critical information dump. Ie. a website. The folks you find here will be much more likely to find landing pages unnecessary for this game. The interaction between these users may also result in an autocorrelation in responses (an interaction in addition to the main effect). That, in turn, will have an unaccounted for impact on your numbers, rendering them incapable of delivering an accurate picture of what the effect is on the game's total population (who typically is in greater need of basic information.) The numbers may still be able to deliver you to the same yes/no answer, but that is technically an assumption whose validity depends on the quality of the judgement call the numbers were intended to test.
Now that's not to say that this feature isn't massively unpopular (refuting a lack of reliable evidence isn't evidence in favor of an alternative). It is to say though that if you're going to start throwing numbers around one should also start adopting procedures and controls too. Otherwise, the violations to scientific principle will do more to undermine the case that the landing page should be changed/removed than the numbers will help it. In the absence of good experimental design, you may as well go with a judgement call and avoid the appearance of misrepresenting data.
Ie. look at the thread, get a sense for patterns, aggregate accordingly with context in mind. The human brain is adapted for that type of operation.
TL/DR: SCIENCE IS NOT FOR THE FEINT OF HEART
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
I'd say this is representative of the playerbase, though I believe if one expresses negative opinions on the landing page it's safe to assume they would support it's removal/disabling.
RIP KDF and PvP 2014-07-17 Season 9.5 - Death by Dev
Perhaps, but at the same time some of the reasoning is totally irrational, focusing on conspiracy theories about the purpose behind it or hatred over just one aspect of it alone as if it is the only thing that matters.
With what they have done to improve the look of DS9. Those should be a piece of cake compared to the poster sized panels on the Promenade.
Fed/Vulcan: T'jar Voltek Fleet: Section 31
Fed/Andorian: Lissan Ek'Noor sh'Aqabaa Fleet: Section 31
KDF/Cardi: K'Im Qah da Sian Fleet: Klingon Intelligence
KDF/Reman: R'Chras Jonzor Fleet: Klingon Intelligence
Its not targeting anyone. Its bugged.
Edit: it looks like somebody else has already dug into the marketing and promotional aspects. Cheers for that. It was what I was hinting at last page when I was offered a tin foil hat. After two weeks of seeing it per character, you'll be grateful for any small change. Mission accomplished.
"Targeted at whales"
"ONLY purpose is to shove ads for lockbox keys in our faces"
"ONLY purpose is to make us spend money"
THAT's where the conspiracy theories come in. Completely ignoring the fact this could keep players up to date on other things, and focusing solely on the monetization.
There've been a few rampant conspiracies in this thread regarding the "purpose" of the landing page, usually something dark and devious passed down from the overlords on high to the Dev Team.
I'm surprised someone isn't coming up with the wild theory that its gonna start costing zen to see anything other than the landing screen at this rate.
If I'm coming across as irritated right now... I kinda am.
Yea that was exactly my comment. I mean if they wanted a welcome page that only popped up on login I'm fine with how it is now.
But then I have to immediately ask the question isn't that what HAIL or J should already provide? Perhaps make Calendar stand out a bit more; but then all they'd need to do is update HAPPENING THIS WEEKEND to be NEWS &/OR PROMOTIONS with left & right scroll buttons.
But I'm trying to stay positive... hoping that binding the login to the main menu or being present every time I hit ESC is likely a bit much. I just want a simple small dialog centered in the center of the screen like we had before when I hit ESC to logout or change character.
Indeed, a survey doesn't justify complex opinions. It's simply a tool for data analysis under the categorization method used. You can look at a survey and say "hey, X out of Y folks agree with me. So long as that frequency is greater than 0.50, I'm in the right" but what you may find is that the original reasoning behind some of those responses (having simplified complex opinion into discrete categories) is less than substantial. They don't become more substantial by association with earnest feedback that incidentally happens to agree with them.
Thus, what an opinion survey or a poll on a forum describes is the demographics of an argument. That can be useful to passively describe trends (assuming of course that you have a sufficient sample size for valid statistical inferences) but it does not replace argumentation. That must still stand on its own merits and endure critical review for a consensus. I don't think there's much chance of mistaking what that consensus is here. Hence: folks should not worry about the numbers, just have a discussion.
PS. why does the cardi padd look so delicious? There's a tardigrade joke here somewhere, not sure if I see it yet.
Also: update the now generic PVE listing to promote the latest queue or queues. PVP might also be able to get away with a smaller text based button to make room for other changes (the current art isn't essential to selling the experience, fairly nondescript but that's simply my take on it.)
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
I do stand behind everything below the horizontal line in my last post. Sometimes it seems almost like mentioning certain things is almost forbidden (perhaps unpopular would be a better term), which is why I personally don't like people's views being labelled as conspiracy theories, even the ones you included in your post.
And yea... there have been some instances of people focusing on that one corner alone as if its everything. And some people have actually attacked others who don't agree. Makes them come off looking like Crusaders, and not willing to listen to reason or even outside opinions.
On the forums there are a few hot button topics. Two of which (Enterprise and the Kelvin Timeline) aren't as hot as they used to be. Others like Discovery and in some cases the direction of the game are red hot and tend to polarize the community almost as much as the current political climate in Washington DC.
Does not even have a calander or information regarding current events. The whats new section gets enough attention because it flashes endlessly when a new mod comes out pointless to have on the landing page.