Capture and Hold...on the STO wiki. I am not sure they have ever done it??? I can't make heads or tails of what they wrote. It comes across as overly complicated.
But then, it could just be me needed to sleep some. LOL!
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
So, Capture and Hold....totally useless map, now, with all the immunities.
Gotcha.
+++++++++++++
Editing this post a little later in the afternoon, here....
I got into the You Tube videos... first thing I notice:
There really isn't anything fast about a PvP battle, is there??? Just starting with these Capture and Hold videos. They are taking anywhere from 20 - 40 mins for one match.
If you want Casual Friendly PvP...there has to be a way to cut down the amount of TIME it takes.
Is Competitive Queues any better at that????? I think I will google that, next.
Now, I am wondering....HOW long do these Onslaught matches last in Champions?
Post edited by where2r1 on
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Hmmm. You are light years ahead of me on thinking this stuff through. LOL!
What was your thoughts for solutions to all those immunities?
Answer that while I attempt to get to speed.
Note: going fast and furious on Delta Recruits for a few. My plan is to at least find a few mins to look into PvP mechanics and maps and even player motivations and feelings about it. <--this is very negative, BTW...on every game that has some PvP going on. Some people take things very personally, I think.
Also, during my reviews....I found a term to describe MDK....it is called "Anti-PKer".
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
You know last year, I was looking to figure out ways to make a bit more of a challenge for me with the Video Game part of this game. Which I wasn't feeling since I had the chance to upgrade everything to Mark 12 Purple.
I thought: moving up from "Normal" to "Advanced" in the difficulty...not. That only triggered a very annoying repair injury BS that did not work all the time.
I bought myself the T-6 Pilot Raptors, collected lockbox traits and cross faction consoles, I even tried some of the fancy stuff I saw the PvPers using (at that time).
Upgrading "stuff" was not adding enough "difference" to the way the game felt to me. It did the opposite...just made things much easier. Much easier. It was slowly making me into a lazy player.
I was getting no practice at honing anything. I wasn't getting better at piloting, I didn't have to pay attention to when I was healing, how was my defenses holding up? Where do I need to go and be."my awareness of surroundings"?
Even though I recognized this problem in me... to this day I have not been able to break the bad habits. I still forget to use my cloaking devices. Well, I always had problems getting into flanking position...but it is worse now. LOL!
+++++++++++
It was flying around using my Pilot Raptors when I saw a bug report....some changes with immunity traits and how they displayed. So...curiosity. That is when I opened my eyes: Holy cows, I am in some sort of immunity almost all the time from Pilot Specializations being used on my Pilot ship!
No wonder I am getting lazy.
I been filling these damn specializations up on all my Main characters since specializations started...I have every single one of them filled on 6 characters. And no way to shut them off....and my request for an off option on them, I may as well shouted it into the wind.
++++++++++++
Solution: End of last year, I started working on leveling up new characters. And I decided...keep the extras off.
Heck with all that extra GRIND. I did all that on 6 characters already....it brought me : BOREDOM. And more GRIND going forward. I am just going to stop.
These new characters would have No Rep, No Specialization, No lockbox or Fleet anything including those cross faction traits/consoles. I am even planning my skill tree to remove things I don't feel are basic skills....like Armor Pen, Shield Pen, no Ultimates.
Basically, going Basic. Old school. I like the basic game in STO.
It is just so sad what has become of it, these days.
+++++++++++++
Anyhoo....what would a PvP "league" be like doing a character this way? OH, I mean if everyone in the league created their characters in this way.
Will still get to level 60, will still have access to T-6 ships, basic gear and consoles, can still upgrade.
I am sure maybe a few more rules....like no consoles or traits from other ships...etc.. I don't know all the nuances.
Post edited by where2r1 on
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
I watched some Competitive Queue videos on You Tube last evening.
Ugh...hated it. It felt claustrophobic...plus I never deal with mazes well. OH and it was TOO DARK! Like the pictures of DS9 on Tribble with Lighting 2.0 turned off.
It was closer to doing an obstacle course, and an obstacle course does not have to be inside tight constricted corridors. I am not surprised these two things died.
Again, watching the clock....this time was harder because a lot of the videos got fast forward through some segment or part....or was just clips of the action happening. But pretty sure with the volume of things going on....it was in that 20-40 minute range.
IF YOU WERE SET UP FOR IT.
This goes back to what you said here: "when I started in STO, you could get together a good 'beginner's build' using blue MkXI gear for PvP."
And until all of this gets back to that point....people will only come back to do Featured missions once every few months because they can, and it is fairly less time consuming. AND no one wants to spend all their game time getting SET UP TO PLAY...somewhere down the road, maybe, if the "meta" doesn't change.
AGAIN.
Post edited by where2r1 on
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
And of course, the big elephant in the room.... how to prevent PvP from becoming an outlet for anti-social behavior.
What I mean by anti-social behavior is the toxic trash talking and the ganging up on the newbies.
(Sorry, still not in the mood to recreate what I wrote the other night, that got eaten by the Edit Monster...
I can't believe I put that much time and self into it and lost it on a quick edit for clarification of one point.)
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
I guess, that is where the Tournament thing would take over...to let teams have their day in the sun and showcase what they can do.
I don't know...some of the other games forums people complain these PvP prizes are not worth it. I am not sure what would be "worth it" if you have to have everything to beat anyone.
We saw in the PvP Bootcamp Tournament....those folks already own the billion EC ship trait (shoot, did they open boxes to find them??) and the 900 Lobi ship consoles (I did not check the prices on that Walker console for KDF).
What prize could they need? And wouldn't they just buy their way through the Tournament? And why would Cryptic give it away on a Tournament when they could sell it to them via lockbox or Lobi Store???
Is Cryptic selling this stuff in Lockboxes and Lobi Store to keep casuals from taking up PvP and to keep PvP population down?
And when are the players with deep pockets and/or lots of grind time get tired of PvP because of Cryptic dangling these "expensive tools to make living easier" over their heads? That would destroy the PvP population, too.
And will PvP players ever find a middle ground where they all can have their fun?
Post edited by where2r1 on
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
1) matchmaking systems to provide 'scenario balancing' by placing more developed characters at a numerical disadvantage vs. less developed characters.
So, you are proposing that it would be less likely for newbies to be ganked because there will be more of them as a guard against having a disadvantage in gear or skill?
(I got a flash of a vision of those wrestling matches with Andre the Giant....where he would be in the ring against a bunch of other smaller "ham and eggers"? Sorry, that was the image that came to my mind when I read your words, again. LOL! BTW....I do believe Andre the Giant still clobbered those guys.)
Uh...you know, that kinda is the lesson they try to instill during Basic Training in the military. You can best and overcome any disadvantages, or enemies, by working together as a unit. So, maybe in PvP queues that would be a good take away on a similar front.
Of course, there was a lot of conflicting personalities and arrogance to break down before any one of us was ready to act like a unit. That would be some serious growing pain and frustration for players of this game. Learning to act in a cooperative way, again.
2) locking rewards behind random queues that prevent large (5 man) premade teams.
OK..this is kinda the opposite of the first idea....breaking up potential "killer gangs" before they can take over.
for method 1 to work, it has to account for synergies-at minimum the intended synergies, but ideally developers should have enough knowledge to account for the current metas.
This I am very dubious of. I think the Devs have lost inventory control!
There is, like, a lot of stuff out there. Zoinks!
something going for tens of millions of EC probably has something broken in its mechanics.
I don't understand if Cryptic is doing this to make money off it or not. It seems to take them a long time to fix broken things. It comes across to me as: to make money off players trying to acquire it, now.
But they, also, seem to be overworked and on production deadlines constantly. And they let the "to be fixed" list get entirely too long before they revisit issues. This is not a place I would want to work.
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
So, there are only 2 (1 space and 1 ground) missions for PvP that is different?
All the rest is first team to 15 kills wins? <-- why they can't get the scoreboard to keep track of this is beyond comprehension.
And then, of course, there is Ker'rat. The most one sided description of Ker'rat on the Wiki. Like the Feds don't go in there for killing at all....just peaceful farmers looking for loot, how innocent they all are.
They really need to take out that sort of opinions from the wiki and just explain the game play in there.
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
As the occasional (disgruntled?) player comes by the forums to state: "STO has no Endgame".
So, I was thinking about this, this morning...
What is the ultimate ending for a PvP game?
Whether it is something half fast, or if there was the perfect scoring and reward system in place, whether it is Vanilla or Cheesiest of cheese....wouldn't it look very similar to what is going on in STO right now?
The cat's know all the mice tricks, and the mice know all the cat's tricks. And either side can learn and can adjust to changes. The cat and mouse game is essentially at the end.
If a stalemate isn't the goal...how do you keep this going?
Isn't what is going on with PvP in STO "IT"?
The ones who have everything is capable of putting themselves back in stalemates in a short period of time. Usually, the length of time it takes them to acquire the new "hotness".
And, of course, everyone else is just trying to catch up.
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
OK...let me try again....because I think I got you off track, again.
The question I am asking is:
If everyone tends to end up at a STALEMATE at the end of a PvP game (no matter how fancy it is)....
HOW do you keep it going?
A stalemate is what is going on in STO's PvP endgame, right?
Everyone knows everyone else's...well....everything....gear, tactics, builds. (this is what I meant by the cat and mouse paragraph...btw)
Everyone is using the same-o, same-o. Predictable.
Also, takes forever to beat each other...
I am not even sure mistakes matter any more thanks to immunities.
ADD: is it because there isn't that much variety in PvP in STO?
You only need to do things in one way....just kill the next guy.
+++++++++++++
I get what you are saying though, I was talking to ColdNapalm about it earlier in the thread.
No wonder no one comes back until they have a real video game mission. LOL!
Post edited by where2r1 on
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
the sort of stalemate you describe is a direct result of the way mechanical development's been handled. In the business model I described, (CCG business model) it's part of the intended result, creating a stalemate, then using rules changes to temporarily stir things up until it settles into a new stalemate, at which point the rules are changed, sets are retired, new sets debut to shake things up for the next few months, and in three months or so, those new rules will then be nerfed to help release the next iteration.
IOW what you're describing as a problem to be solved, is in fact the mechanism's intent.
Hence, my description of 'endgame' as a treadmill. (Lots of motion, but going nowhere).
So, you end up with video game players getting bored and leaving because they are only getting the same thing over and over on different backdrops.
And the different scenery the Devs have no problem delivering because of they have years of Star Trek to use as their theme....and some of them are Star Trek fans themselves. And they just give people enough of a taste to keep them hanging on.
So, the only people who stay around to play....are people like me, who are not really good at video games and this game is fairly easy to figure out...plus tons of non-video game stuff to do.
Or people who like to be the big fishes in a small pond.
Or Star Trek fans.
+++++++++++++++
This is such a shame because the basic space battles part of the game is very good. It is just not being used very purposefully. It has become pretty mindless.
There must be some way to get a better experience out of it, than just following along with the masses in PvP.....or repeating the laid out course over and over in PvE.
Post edited by where2r1 on
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
I think that this Kobyashi Maru would make a good PvP mission. I don't know why there isn't a PvP version.
One side tries to kill off the Maru, the other keeps it healed.
I think they could use that "Neutral Zone" to delineate an area where immunities, traits and specializations won't work.
In otherwords, someone can't park next to the Maru without actually being able to tank and heal without all the doo-hickies to hide.
But then, there should be "something" inside the "Neutral Zone" that debuffs the attackers, too. Don't know what though...maybe some sort of swarming enemies (like the Hur'q). They would have to employ crowd control or something.
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
the 'golden ticket' is to have a situation where nobody can equip ALL the good options simultaneously, and no matter what build, they have to sacrifice something. you can think of it as a situation like the 'tank triad' faced by real world weapons designers in the past;
Speed, firepower, armor, pick two.
Um...in the “real world” one has to think about weight (including that of payload) along with fuel consumption. I know, for rocket launches weight of the fuel is in the mix, too. So, it sounds reasonable for similar limits on tanks…..or airplanes. <--couldn’t stick with an example that was more conventional?
So, due to limitations, there is always compromise, sacrifice of something. It is part of everything in life, really.
Shoot, they even ditched paint for the external fuel tank on the Space Shuttle because of weight, there is only so much lift the rockets (with a particular amount of fuel) have. You can only do so much with what is available to use and still stay "within budget".
I get this.
And I can see your point that in STO, they turned the idea of “player flexibility” and “alliances between factions” into “everyone gets everything”. And that everyone CAN equip all the best options, without restrictions.
So, the Devs effectively leveled competition across the board. And as you say: killed the game with the “one true build”. And why people don’t talk builds...they just list what gear to acquire. (‘won tru build’ <--is this a typo, I assume so)
I would hope that the point of the game is to compete head to head and best another player or the enemy NPCs. Until then you are conditioning yourself to get there…"grinding", whether done with time or wallet, is the just the lead up...it is work. And who wants to do all that work and take a draw?
Obviously, enough players do to make Cryptic a profit.
I can see what you mean that taking the advantage by using attack or movement or defense being gone by Level 50. But these days it is more akin to disappears faster at Level 50. Level 50 brings Starship Traits, Rep, and Specializations to the table.
Even before 50….Players get access to the missions that give out those "sets" at any level, thanks to that skip button and FEs….with free upgrades. Mark 12, and hence Fleet gear, unlocks at Level 45. DOFFs unlock at Level 11. And collection of Genetic Resequencer Traits can start any time for in game currency, thanks to the Exchange, though you won’t have very many trait slots at lower levels.
So,Level 50 being the beginning of nose to grindstone, probably a thing of the past, Patrickngo.
Besides, it doesn’t take but a week, if that, for a dedicated player to get to 50, anyways.
You will have to choose NOT to level up to enjoy PvP at below Level 50 for any length of time...which means doing nothing else with your PvP character...with other characters supporting it with grind.
+++++++++++++++++
The saying you are looking for is “Jack of all trades, master of none”.
And don’t those CCG players eventually go card to card to take each other down?
Can’t protect the kids from competition forever…
Getting late here...so I am closing this out.
Anything you want me to study closer and respond to...leave me a note.
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
What is even the point of min/maxing this, if only needs to figure out one way to set things up? It is barely a puzzle.
You know what is the real puzzle? Figuring out where that 40% IS in this crazy mess. And it is going to include: eliminate (or extremely limit) Starship Traits, Reputation, Specializations and Universal Consoles.
You could have a league set up for it, with no way to verify set ups, so you better trust the other members. Or premade PvP ships but Dev made ships are pretty bad. And not sure there are players that can even come up with a decent PvP build these days....that eliminates all that "extra stuff".
One more point I have on the tip of my tongue...but it escapes me, right now....I will have to make another edit later when I remember what it is. <--oh, the joys of getting old.
So, basically, now, if anyone wants to do anything in this game...
they have to be a follower? And spend their days grinding? LOL!
No thanks. I will continue to play by myself.
I have a good enough time, and plenty of things to do to help me practice video game stuff.
Post edited by where2r1 on
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Comments
But then, it could just be me needed to sleep some. LOL!
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Gotcha.
+++++++++++++
Editing this post a little later in the afternoon, here....
I got into the You Tube videos... first thing I notice:
There really isn't anything fast about a PvP battle, is there??? Just starting with these Capture and Hold videos. They are taking anywhere from 20 - 40 mins for one match.
If you want Casual Friendly PvP...there has to be a way to cut down the amount of TIME it takes.
Is Competitive Queues any better at that????? I think I will google that, next.
Now, I am wondering....HOW long do these Onslaught matches last in Champions?
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
What was your thoughts for solutions to all those immunities?
Answer that while I attempt to get to speed.
Note: going fast and furious on Delta Recruits for a few. My plan is to at least find a few mins to look into PvP mechanics and maps and even player motivations and feelings about it. <--this is very negative, BTW...on every game that has some PvP going on. Some people take things very personally, I think.
Also, during my reviews....I found a term to describe MDK....it is called "Anti-PKer".
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
You know last year, I was looking to figure out ways to make a bit more of a challenge for me with the Video Game part of this game. Which I wasn't feeling since I had the chance to upgrade everything to Mark 12 Purple.
I thought: moving up from "Normal" to "Advanced" in the difficulty...not. That only triggered a very annoying repair injury BS that did not work all the time.
I bought myself the T-6 Pilot Raptors, collected lockbox traits and cross faction consoles, I even tried some of the fancy stuff I saw the PvPers using (at that time).
Upgrading "stuff" was not adding enough "difference" to the way the game felt to me. It did the opposite...just made things much easier. Much easier. It was slowly making me into a lazy player.
I was getting no practice at honing anything. I wasn't getting better at piloting, I didn't have to pay attention to when I was healing, how was my defenses holding up? Where do I need to go and be."my awareness of surroundings"?
Even though I recognized this problem in me... to this day I have not been able to break the bad habits. I still forget to use my cloaking devices. Well, I always had problems getting into flanking position...but it is worse now. LOL!
+++++++++++
It was flying around using my Pilot Raptors when I saw a bug report....some changes with immunity traits and how they displayed. So...curiosity. That is when I opened my eyes: Holy cows, I am in some sort of immunity almost all the time from Pilot Specializations being used on my Pilot ship!
No wonder I am getting lazy.
I been filling these damn specializations up on all my Main characters since specializations started...I have every single one of them filled on 6 characters. And no way to shut them off....and my request for an off option on them, I may as well shouted it into the wind.
++++++++++++
Solution: End of last year, I started working on leveling up new characters. And I decided...keep the extras off.
Heck with all that extra GRIND. I did all that on 6 characters already....it brought me : BOREDOM. And more GRIND going forward. I am just going to stop.
These new characters would have No Rep, No Specialization, No lockbox or Fleet anything including those cross faction traits/consoles. I am even planning my skill tree to remove things I don't feel are basic skills....like Armor Pen, Shield Pen, no Ultimates.
Basically, going Basic. Old school. I like the basic game in STO.
It is just so sad what has become of it, these days.
+++++++++++++
Anyhoo....what would a PvP "league" be like doing a character this way? OH, I mean if everyone in the league created their characters in this way.
Will still get to level 60, will still have access to T-6 ships, basic gear and consoles, can still upgrade.
I am sure maybe a few more rules....like no consoles or traits from other ships...etc.. I don't know all the nuances.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Ugh...hated it. It felt claustrophobic...plus I never deal with mazes well. OH and it was TOO DARK! Like the pictures of DS9 on Tribble with Lighting 2.0 turned off.
It was closer to doing an obstacle course, and an obstacle course does not have to be inside tight constricted corridors. I am not surprised these two things died.
Again, watching the clock....this time was harder because a lot of the videos got fast forward through some segment or part....or was just clips of the action happening. But pretty sure with the volume of things going on....it was in that 20-40 minute range.
IF YOU WERE SET UP FOR IT.
This goes back to what you said here: "when I started in STO, you could get together a good 'beginner's build' using blue MkXI gear for PvP."
And until all of this gets back to that point....people will only come back to do Featured missions once every few months because they can, and it is fairly less time consuming. AND no one wants to spend all their game time getting SET UP TO PLAY...somewhere down the road, maybe, if the "meta" doesn't change.
AGAIN.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
What I mean by anti-social behavior is the toxic trash talking and the ganging up on the newbies.
(Sorry, still not in the mood to recreate what I wrote the other night, that got eaten by the Edit Monster...
I can't believe I put that much time and self into it and lost it on a quick edit for clarification of one point.)
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
I don't know...some of the other games forums people complain these PvP prizes are not worth it. I am not sure what would be "worth it" if you have to have everything to beat anyone.
We saw in the PvP Bootcamp Tournament....those folks already own the billion EC ship trait (shoot, did they open boxes to find them??) and the 900 Lobi ship consoles (I did not check the prices on that Walker console for KDF).
What prize could they need? And wouldn't they just buy their way through the Tournament? And why would Cryptic give it away on a Tournament when they could sell it to them via lockbox or Lobi Store???
Is Cryptic selling this stuff in Lockboxes and Lobi Store to keep casuals from taking up PvP and to keep PvP population down?
And when are the players with deep pockets and/or lots of grind time get tired of PvP because of Cryptic dangling these "expensive tools to make living easier" over their heads? That would destroy the PvP population, too.
And will PvP players ever find a middle ground where they all can have their fun?
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
So, you are proposing that it would be less likely for newbies to be ganked because there will be more of them as a guard against having a disadvantage in gear or skill?
(I got a flash of a vision of those wrestling matches with Andre the Giant....where he would be in the ring against a bunch of other smaller "ham and eggers"? Sorry, that was the image that came to my mind when I read your words, again. LOL! BTW....I do believe Andre the Giant still clobbered those guys.)
Uh...you know, that kinda is the lesson they try to instill during Basic Training in the military. You can best and overcome any disadvantages, or enemies, by working together as a unit. So, maybe in PvP queues that would be a good take away on a similar front.
Of course, there was a lot of conflicting personalities and arrogance to break down before any one of us was ready to act like a unit. That would be some serious growing pain and frustration for players of this game. Learning to act in a cooperative way, again.
OK..this is kinda the opposite of the first idea....breaking up potential "killer gangs" before they can take over.
This I am very dubious of. I think the Devs have lost inventory control!
There is, like, a lot of stuff out there. Zoinks!
I don't understand if Cryptic is doing this to make money off it or not. It seems to take them a long time to fix broken things. It comes across to me as: to make money off players trying to acquire it, now.
But they, also, seem to be overworked and on production deadlines constantly. And they let the "to be fixed" list get entirely too long before they revisit issues. This is not a place I would want to work.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
All the rest is first team to 15 kills wins? <-- why they can't get the scoreboard to keep track of this is beyond comprehension.
And then, of course, there is Ker'rat. The most one sided description of Ker'rat on the Wiki. Like the Feds don't go in there for killing at all....just peaceful farmers looking for loot, how innocent they all are.
They really need to take out that sort of opinions from the wiki and just explain the game play in there.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
So, I was thinking about this, this morning...
What is the ultimate ending for a PvP game?
Whether it is something half fast, or if there was the perfect scoring and reward system in place, whether it is Vanilla or Cheesiest of cheese....wouldn't it look very similar to what is going on in STO right now?
The cat's know all the mice tricks, and the mice know all the cat's tricks. And either side can learn and can adjust to changes. The cat and mouse game is essentially at the end.
If a stalemate isn't the goal...how do you keep this going?
Isn't what is going on with PvP in STO "IT"?
The ones who have everything is capable of putting themselves back in stalemates in a short period of time. Usually, the length of time it takes them to acquire the new "hotness".
And, of course, everyone else is just trying to catch up.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
The question I am asking is:
If everyone tends to end up at a STALEMATE at the end of a PvP game (no matter how fancy it is)....
HOW do you keep it going?
A stalemate is what is going on in STO's PvP endgame, right?
Everyone knows everyone else's...well....everything....gear, tactics, builds.
(this is what I meant by the cat and mouse paragraph...btw)
Everyone is using the same-o, same-o. Predictable.
Also, takes forever to beat each other...
I am not even sure mistakes matter any more thanks to immunities.
ADD: is it because there isn't that much variety in PvP in STO?
You only need to do things in one way....just kill the next guy.
+++++++++++++
I get what you are saying though, I was talking to ColdNapalm about it earlier in the thread.
No wonder no one comes back until they have a real video game mission. LOL!
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
So, you end up with video game players getting bored and leaving because they are only getting the same thing over and over on different backdrops.
And the different scenery the Devs have no problem delivering because of they have years of Star Trek to use as their theme....and some of them are Star Trek fans themselves. And they just give people enough of a taste to keep them hanging on.
So, the only people who stay around to play....are people like me, who are not really good at video games and this game is fairly easy to figure out...plus tons of non-video game stuff to do.
Or people who like to be the big fishes in a small pond.
Or Star Trek fans.
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This is such a shame because the basic space battles part of the game is very good. It is just not being used very purposefully. It has become pretty mindless.
There must be some way to get a better experience out of it, than just following along with the masses in PvP.....or repeating the laid out course over and over in PvE.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
I do not understand how ALL PvP doesn't end up this way?
And I mean....don't care which video game, at all.
With all the people who bought the high end gear, studied and learned tactics, know the way their enemies will respond....be in a stale mate?
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I am sorry that STO has "planned" obsolescence as part and parcel to their marketing and sales.... but it is what it is.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
One side tries to kill off the Maru, the other keeps it healed.
I think they could use that "Neutral Zone" to delineate an area where immunities, traits and specializations won't work.
In otherwords, someone can't park next to the Maru without actually being able to tank and heal without all the doo-hickies to hide.
But then, there should be "something" inside the "Neutral Zone" that debuffs the attackers, too. Don't know what though...maybe some sort of swarming enemies (like the Hur'q). They would have to employ crowd control or something.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
"Neutral Zone" should also have: Friendly Fire on those AOE weapons things. LOL!
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Um...in the “real world” one has to think about weight (including that of payload) along with fuel consumption. I know, for rocket launches weight of the fuel is in the mix, too. So, it sounds reasonable for similar limits on tanks…..or airplanes. <--couldn’t stick with an example that was more conventional?
So, due to limitations, there is always compromise, sacrifice of something. It is part of everything in life, really.
Shoot, they even ditched paint for the external fuel tank on the Space Shuttle because of weight, there is only so much lift the rockets (with a particular amount of fuel) have. You can only do so much with what is available to use and still stay "within budget".
I get this.
And I can see your point that in STO, they turned the idea of “player flexibility” and “alliances between factions” into “everyone gets everything”. And that everyone CAN equip all the best options, without restrictions.
So, the Devs effectively leveled competition across the board. And as you say: killed the game with the “one true build”. And why people don’t talk builds...they just list what gear to acquire. (‘won tru build’ <--is this a typo, I assume so)
I would hope that the point of the game is to compete head to head and best another player or the enemy NPCs. Until then you are conditioning yourself to get there…"grinding", whether done with time or wallet, is the just the lead up...it is work. And who wants to do all that work and take a draw?
Obviously, enough players do to make Cryptic a profit.
I can see what you mean that taking the advantage by using attack or movement or defense being gone by Level 50. But these days it is more akin to disappears faster at Level 50. Level 50 brings Starship Traits, Rep, and Specializations to the table.
Even before 50….Players get access to the missions that give out those "sets" at any level, thanks to that skip button and FEs….with free upgrades. Mark 12, and hence Fleet gear, unlocks at Level 45. DOFFs unlock at Level 11. And collection of Genetic Resequencer Traits can start any time for in game currency, thanks to the Exchange, though you won’t have very many trait slots at lower levels.
So,Level 50 being the beginning of nose to grindstone, probably a thing of the past, Patrickngo.
Besides, it doesn’t take but a week, if that, for a dedicated player to get to 50, anyways.
You will have to choose NOT to level up to enjoy PvP at below Level 50 for any length of time...which means doing nothing else with your PvP character...with other characters supporting it with grind.
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The saying you are looking for is “Jack of all trades, master of none”.
And don’t those CCG players eventually go card to card to take each other down?
Can’t protect the kids from competition forever…
Getting late here...so I am closing this out.
Anything you want me to study closer and respond to...leave me a note.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
What is even the point of min/maxing this, if only needs to figure out one way to set things up? It is barely a puzzle.
You know what is the real puzzle? Figuring out where that 40% IS in this crazy mess. And it is going to include: eliminate (or extremely limit) Starship Traits, Reputation, Specializations and Universal Consoles.
You could have a league set up for it, with no way to verify set ups, so you better trust the other members. Or premade PvP ships but Dev made ships are pretty bad. And not sure there are players that can even come up with a decent PvP build these days....that eliminates all that "extra stuff".
One more point I have on the tip of my tongue...but it escapes me, right now....I will have to make another edit later when I remember what it is. <--oh, the joys of getting old.
So, basically, now, if anyone wants to do anything in this game...
they have to be a follower? And spend their days grinding? LOL!
No thanks. I will continue to play by myself.
I have a good enough time, and plenty of things to do to help me practice video game stuff.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin