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Question About Tanks

BACKGROUND...
I blew an embarrassing amount of cash when I first picked up the game, trying out different ships and gear sets. I was told early on energy weapons were the way to go. Science was interesting, but not really a viable end-game option. Neither was tanking. Eventually, I settled on beams, learned how to set up a decent macro, and got my numbers up a bit, nothing fancy, but enough to fit in. A couple of years in, I took my first break. I popped back in about a year later, got caught up, and was happy to see science had become a viable option. Having recently re-watched one of the series, I got in the mood to pop back in after another year off. I blew some accumulated lifetime Zen, and upgraded a few things. I ran through the last expansion, and read up on the new items. I messed around with some ground combat and Borg runs, looking for something different to do. After about a week, I fell back into the usual Crystalline runs and selling off rewards, cycling through all characters, essentially grinding slowly toward another ship.

I play a few tacs for the buffs, but prefer science captains for photonic fleet. When they introduced SRO, I put more focus on my Fed Roms. I keep a Klingon around because his carrier looks like a crawfish and his pirate boffs help a bit, but don't spend much time on that side. I made a few aliens because they were funny to look at. Once I realized how important DPS is to the end game, and how great SRO was for getting those numbers up, I dumped a couple. I kept my first non-Rom captain, despite his lack of SRO, because I invested so much into trying out different ships with him. I made a temporal captain to check that out when that was going on, and made it human so I could fly the old Enterprise with it. But, I usually sacrifice the option to fly Fed ships and go with Roms for SRO and SRO boffs. I love the thought of flying an Enterprise type ship, but I always wind up in an account wide unlock or lock box ship to get those numbers up. I've got a couple of traditional beam warbirds, but find gravity well AoE torpedo boats more fun. I prefer four torpedoes up front, so while I do enjoy the science ships, I tend toward carriers with Scorpions. I've always wanted a reason to play the Picard Enterprise long-term. Min maxing a glass cannon is great, but it gets old after a while. Playing science with AoE lowers the numbers a bit, but it's a fun option that can be viable. But, the tank has always been hanging out there, an entire slice of the pie that can't be enjoyed at end game.

TO THE POINT...
My question is, have they changed anything to make tanking count toward things like Crystalline? I see they've added a couple of more cruisers during this last break. So, I'm hoping this has been addressed in some way. The last time I played, being a tank meant never winning anything and literally getting cursed at for low DPS. There was no incentive in the end game to continue playing one.

If you're going to tell me how I should play whatever I want and ignore people who yell, etc. I know. I know. I'm just looking to find out if anything has changed since a year ago, for tanking in the end game. If not, no big deal. I'll just keep playing what works for a while.

Comments

  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 10,696 Arc User
    Tanking is still a distant second to doing DPS.

    DPS can be done most easily with beams and FAW. but cannons and <dolby> SCIENCE! </dolby> are both viable. Even a Torp ship with the right rep sets and consoles.

    They finally fixed New Romulus so that if you park a Rom there you will get the Romulan boff recruitment missions again, and eventually get them with SRO. Blue boffs can have SRO, and greens can have basic RO. Try that with your original character.

    Feds can get some ROs through the Embassy fleet holding. You can also boost crit through the Vulnerability Locator fleet consoles and some rep and lobi consoles. Even without all that Feds are perfectly viable since 60-70% of captains are Feds.
  • orangenee#2931 orangenee Member Posts: 837 Arc User
    It's still pretty much deepies >>>> all in some players minds. That's other players though.

    Tanking or even heal boats are viable, from what I see. I mean no tac pilot will really mind somebody drawing some fire or catching a heal, nor will tanks for that matter.

    I haven't been playing that long, just getting what I can and trying stuff out. So any specific mechanics I'll leave to the veterans.
  • vampeiyrevampeiyre Member Posts: 633 Arc User
    You know, if you like doing Fed-aligned Romulan Science captains, you just might want to look at the Crossfield Class, which is what the U.S.S. Discovery is: A true Science ship (secondary deflector with sensor scan and subsystem targeting), a 4/3 weapon layout, cruiser-like tanking capability, and it can be flown by Fed-aligned Romulans.
    "I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am."
  • darkbladejkdarkbladejk Member Posts: 3,822 Community Moderator
    You can definitely be a tank in game as that's what I play as when I'm on. I very rarely die and pull between 40k-50k dps on average. To some that may not be alot but even when running with friends and some folks capable of pulling 100k+ I never have issues keeping threat over them. STO is one of the games where the traditional holy trinity system is not enforced, but is still possible to carry out. You can make heal boats, tanks, and even do crazy amounts of damage with science based powers alone. I'm a firm believer in the saying, you can't dps if you're dead. For sake of argument lets assume you could drop 1m+ dps. That's cool but if you're dying when the enemy so much as sneezes in your direction, not even sneezes on you but just in your direction, then you're a glass cannon and it's not helping you much. On the flip side it's possible to be a turtle as well. You can never die but you're not going to kill them either if you're too far into the tanking side of the spectrum. You can also be a classic Fire At Will or Scatter Volley disco ball throwing alot of energy weapons out there also if you fancy that type of damage dealing.

    If you want to be a tank, you can definitely do so in today's game. You won't be pulling 300k+ dps as a tank like some folks try to do, but you can still do enough damage to where you can kill anything in game and clear all the content no problems. Personally I hate the DPS>Everything mindset some folks have. There's an entire game out there to enjoy if they would just look up from the meters for a second. However that's a different debate/rant for a different day. If you're interested in tanking drop me a PM and I can help you out some.
    "Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations

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  • casualstocasualsto Member Posts: 672 Arc User
    You need to plan and build better for a tanking build. Things have changed and tanks have Miracle Worker specialization now, Miracle Worker ships rock and tanking as a high DPS tac is no longer applicable since smart threat management and proper damage output are the strong points of a well built-tac. Engineering is hands-down the best tank suited for the role and can do it flawlessly if built right.

    Reply up with questions and they'll be enthusiastically answered.
  • zizuphzizuph Member Posts: 9 Arc User
    Ok, so the turtle concept is my first concern. I want to put out just enough DPS so I don't get yelled at during advanced runs. But, every time I've tried playing a tank, I've fallen short of that mark.

    My second concern is end game reward runs, especially crystalline. If I heal others' shields with my tachyon beam, that raises my chances of placing and getting a reward worth significant EC. But, if I meat shield that doesn't count... or does it now?
  • pwstolemynamepwstolemyname Member Posts: 1,417 Arc User
    A high DPS captains point of view on tanks:

    I primarily fly a science damage build. Every slot, and ability on my captain is dedicated to either increase my damage, or increasing the size of my gravity well (24km diameter). I have a fair number of heals, but i use them all on my way to the enemy as they proc things which boost my exotic damage. So when I am engaged everything that could help me stay alive is already on cool down. (Thank Q for lingering resistance boosts)

    Thanks to the aforementioned Mega-Well and the fact that all my damage doing is not only AOE but also extremely high Alpha strike, I get all of the agro from all of the things all of the time.

    Now hear is where my experience becomes relevant to the tanks. I don't die. Well ok a bit, If I mess up and don't pay attention, or if i'm sleepy, I do die from time to time. But by and large I don't, and I like having all the agro. If i didn't have anything shooting at me nothing would proc reciprocity and then i wouldn't be able to five off torpedo spreads as often as I do.

    So I run threatening stance, with the captain ability to enhance its threat generation, because I don't want tanks pulling aggro from me. I live for the thrill of life on the edge in my little science ship that's already used all its heals and just made every single enemy very very unhappy at it.

    .. and I don't die.

    With the way STO is built, tanks are unnecessary. Whats more if they are actually successful in pulling aggro (best of luck to you in my case, you will need it) they can hurt the damage doers potential. There are a number of traits, both personal and starship, which require that something hits you in order to boost your damage output in one way or another.

    If some one were to pull aggro from me (which isn't happening but speaking hypothetically) I would probably be quite annoyed by them.

    Now of course I am talking about end game builds. Its so long since i have flown with anything else that i am certainly not qualified to talk about builds put together on a budget. But I recon there probably is a place for tanks in a group of fresh level 60s. But how often do you fly in a group that does not have at least one or two veterans in it any more? Actually my perspective on that might be a little screwy as I am incapable of ever flying in a group without at least myself in it. Maybe lowbie groups are more common then I am aware?

    The effect of stat boosts from equipment in STO is far far weaker then most people realise. 90% of your performance comes down to build synergy, bridge officer abilities and your own personal piloting. You might think I am exaggerating, but just try parsing yourself in a repeatable scenario, such as a foundry mission, with and without consoles equipped. You will wonder why you spent so much on them I promise.

    Once you start using cool down reduction traits and doffs to put everything on global, escorts and science ships typical have almost as many tanking abilities, if not as many, as tank built cruisers. The principle difference between a tank build and a damage one is usually just the equipment people chose, at least for the most part. But that equipment accounts for 10%-ish of their overall performance. So the DPS monkeys end up tanking almost as well. Conversely tank-Monkeys have no excuse for not doing reasonably high DPS.

    So yeah any way, fly what ever you want however you want, the important thing is to have fun. But don't fly a tank with the idea in mind that your doing it for the team. Because no one on the team needs a tank. In fact the best scenario for efficiency in sto is to have the NPCs targeting every one equally, distributed damage is easier to deal with then focused damage, and it helps proc verius traits that your team mates might be using.
  • casualstocasualsto Member Posts: 672 Arc User
    A Tank can be effective in terms of dps. It's a mix containing Attack Pattern Delta Prime, Improved Feedback Pulse, Honored Dead and the Tactical Miracle Worker trait that extends BFAW's duration based on times being hit for up to 15 seconds. It all relies on taking hits, taking threat, being boosted by that and dishing out enough beam array based damage against multiple targets.

    But you require to have your skills up way better than a exotic build or a pure tac build. And the skilltree requires some serious reworking/skilltree min-maxing to get the best out of getting hit, being an engineer and maintaining an aggresive profile.

    Best four ships in which you can achieve this as a fed: Tac Miracle Worker - Tucker class, Intel Dreadnought Vengeance class, Tactical Odyssey - Endeavour Class and the 31rd Century Temporal Dreadnought (has an interesting taunting console that synergises really well with this).
  • tunebreakertunebreaker Member Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    Tanking is in a weird position. People who have never tried elite content (or can't handle it, yet love to show off with their high advanced queue parses) will tell you tanking is completely pointless and you should go full DPS. And yes, in normal/advanced queues - they are mostly right. Tanking in content that easy can be fun and even helpful to some degree, but not really necessary in an experienced team. To use your own example, Crystalline Catastrope (CCA) - that map ends before you can start "tanking".

    However, let's move to elite queues and man, how tanks can shine. A (somewhat) popular map among high end players, Hive Onslaught Elite (HSE) benefits absolutely from the presence of a tank (and/or a healer). Yes, of course you *can* complete it without a good tank, but you need a very coordinated team with everyone doing at least 100k DPS. That's something only approx. 50 players in total are capable of doing. However, add a good tank to team to take aggro off others and it becomes much easier to complete.

    However, as you mentioned turtling, then indeed, a good tank also puts out fair amount of DPS, among other things. Aggro in STO is determined by 3 things: your damage, your heals and your proximity to enemies. That is then modified by various things like Embassy science consoles or Threat Control. So it's not uncommon to see team's tank being ranked high in DPS as well.

    I'm by no means an expert of tanking, but I'll leave those links for you to go through: written by the absolute best of tanks in game:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/stobuilds/comments/6dwxvd/uss_bedivere_jayiies_s13_science_star_cruiser_t6/
    https://www.reddit.com/r/stobuilds/comments/766t52/florians_nautilus_a_yorktown_heavy_tank_tac/
    https://www.reddit.com/r/stobuilds/comments/6oz1a4/rommies_lancers_hope_100k_jemhadar_dreadnought/
    https://www.reddit.com/r/stobuilds/comments/79i55a/atems_hatmehyt_operations_miracle_worker_t6/

    And @pwstolemyname, I encourage you to play more elite content. You'll learn to appreciate the presence of a good tank very quickly.
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  • pwstolemynamepwstolemyname Member Posts: 1,417 Arc User
    edited March 2018
    And @pwstolemyname, I encourage you to play more elite content. You'll learn to appreciate the presence of a good tank very quickly.

    Sorry tub breaker, but your assumption is false. I love elite content and play hive regularly. When its just me and some pugs pulling 10k to 15k I have to ber very careful about my maneuvering, If i dont stay at the edge of weapons range so that I can manage income damage it can be painful, but as my damage comes from hazards doing so doesn't really hurt my damage potential.

    When its me and one of my friends who focuses on tanking its not realy any better at all, because he cant hold aggro.

    When its me and other high DPS builds its generally Alright, because even with their massive HP multiplication we clear out the spheres quickly enough that they don't become an issue. Once the spheres are gone the cubes aren't that bad.

    Now running elite with a group of cruisers who are trying to tank, but still pumping, each pumping out 30k+ isnt a bad thing at all but the same can be said of running it with a group of escorts/raiders/science ships doing the same. wether or not their trying to tank doesn't really help.

  • tunebreakertunebreaker Member Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    Sorry tub breaker, but your assumption is false. I love elite content and play hive regularly. When its just me and some pugs pulling 10k to 15k I have to ber very careful about my maneuvering, If i dont stay at the edge of weapons range so that I can manage income damage it can be painful, but as my damage comes from hazards doing so doesn't really hurt my damage potential.

    You claim you're pugging HSE... and completing it with people doing 10-15k. Yeah, right. :D
    When its me and one of my friends who focuses on tanking its not realy any better at all, because he cant hold aggro.
    Then your friend is not really a tank, is he?
    When its me and other high DPS builds its generally Alright, because even with their massive HP multiplication we clear out the spheres quickly enough that they don't become an issue. Once the spheres are gone the cubes aren't that bad.
    Would love to hear specific numbers - what is "high DPS" for you?
    Now running elite with a group of cruisers who are trying to tank, but still pumping, each pumping out 30k+ isnt a bad thing at all but the same can be said of running it with a group of escorts/raiders/science ships doing the same. wether or not their trying to tank doesn't really help.
    Yeah, no. You won't beat HSE with 30k builds. Definitely not without a tank.

    Now, if you have any videos or even parses to prove me otherwise, I'd be happy to eat crow, but right now I have to call BS on your post. Your forum handle obviously don't correlate with your in-game one, so I can't look you up from SCM leaderboards myself either.
  • pwstolemynamepwstolemyname Member Posts: 1,417 Arc User

    ...You claim you're pugging HSE... and completing it with people doing 10-15k. Yeah, right. :D

    ...Then your friend is not really a tank, is he?

    ...Would love to hear specific numbers - what is "high DPS" for you?

    ...Yeah, no. You won't beat HSE with 30k builds. Definitely not without a tank.

    Now, if you have any videos or even parses to prove me otherwise, I'd be happy to eat crow, but right now I have to call BS on your post. Your forum handle obviously don't correlate with your in-game one, so I can't look you up from SCM leaderboards myself either.

    See now this is why I don't typically give out numbers. Because every time I do some one wants to start a fight. Honestly your opinion isn't important enough to me for me to make a video or provide a special parse just for you. But hear are my credentials:

    When I quote DPS numbers I like to provide average condition numbers, not special circumstance highest i ever got numbers. I don't play the DPS leaderboard game. I play the big fish little pond game, where I que with pugs or my fleet mates and enjoy being the best. Carrying a hopeless team to victory is far more enjoyable to me then playing with the best of the best. That's why I go with ctrlx to 400 builds over part gens all the way. Massive gravity wells make everything easy mode... Except for korfez, which used to be easy mode until cryptic gave the boss ship massive resistance, but that's another gripe for another time.

    I used to do all my mechanics and build testing with a stop watch. I only downloaded a parser for the first time a couple of years ago. I usually use foundry missions which i can control the conditions in to reduce variables. The DPS community seems to like infected, why i will never know, but they do, and every one always seems gives the highest number they have ever passed in it as their DPS. Which is typically a gross misrepresentation.

    So if you want a number I think the highest I ever parsed in an infected was 95k-ish? Not sure its been a while. For Hive i dont think ive parsed more then 50k-ish. But it dose have a lot of downtime. For Crystalline it was something over 200k... i think. And if you want to look me up to confirm, then look for Temo@ctcc42. Fed science captain. I rarely bother to upload results though. I only parse to test game mechanics, because you cant trust what people say on the forums, and you definitely cant trust the tool tips.

    Now I don't know what your credentials or background is in the game tunebreaker. Im guessing your probably some one who parses quite high as your so confident. But i'm also guessing your not running with randoms enough if you think content requires so much. It really doesn't, not even elite... well except Kofez... damn resistant end boss.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,698 Community Moderator
    I can vouch for pwstolemyname. He is a fleetmate and he is a very skilled Sci Captain. He's not interested in climbing leaderboards. He enjoys just making things disappear with SCIENCE!

    I can parse around 15k with a Phaser build on a Walker so I'm pretty decent. Temo is lightyears over me unless I'm on my Temporal Recruit. We actually tried to do three megawells on the boss ship in Korfez... and the blasted thing didn't go below 90%! Whatever was going on... I think Korfez got broke.

    But we're not number crunchers for the sake of number crunching. We still play for fun.
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  • tunebreakertunebreaker Member Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    First of all, I apologize if I came off as too aggressive, I don't want to pick a fight, but I do have a very low tolerance about misinformation. And when someone says something ridiculous like "tanks are unnecessary in this game", I will challenge that information.

    And just like you, pwstolemyname, I dislike people using their ISA (or even worse, CCA... how people think *that* map is a good representation of their overall skill totally eludes me) high score, and high score only as a general representation of their overall skill. And like you, I fly an exotic-heavy build.

    However, I have run elite queues over the years for too many times, with totally different teams, and talked to players far more knowledgeable than myself. I parse 100k in HSE on average and I was one of the 5 who used to hold HSE speed record for a while. I also have plenty of videos you are free to check out, including one where I 2-manned HSE with a friend (not to mention a good tank), or where we completed HSE with science vessels only. And just because both you and rattler mentioned it, I have completed Korfez post S13 buffs. Just providing this information to show I'm not talking out of my TRIBBLE.

    And having done HSE countless times, I can guarantee you it's absolutely easier to complete it with a tank who draws aggro off everyone else and can sustain it. Again, with proper coordination and people who know the mission, it's absolutely possible to complete it without a tank. But it's definitely a lot harder. If *you* have done it that way, you have my admiration. Not to mention there have been several times when I've gotten too cocky and agreed to carry 4 not-really-prepared players through it (I'm not a tank myself), only to see everyone die in flames.
    rattler2 wrote: »
    But we're not number crunchers for the sake of number crunching. We still play for fun.

    If you believe number crunchers don't play for fun, you are gravely mistaken.
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    zizuph wrote: »

    TO THE POINT...
    My question is, have they changed anything to make tanking count toward things like Crystalline? I see they've added a couple of more cruisers during this last break. So, I'm hoping this has been addressed in some way. The last time I played, being a tank meant never winning anything and literally getting cursed at for low DPS. There was no incentive in the end game to continue playing one.

    If you're going to tell me how I should play whatever I want and ignore people who yell, etc. I know. I know. I'm just looking to find out if anything has changed since a year ago, for tanking in the end game. If not, no big deal. I'll just keep playing what works for a while.

    Even though not needed to complete any of the content the concept of tanking in PvE works and we even get a few game sided features offered to underline tanking. Those features either involve means to increase your threat (embassy consoles, AP Delta Doff e.g.) to be able to grab aggro for your team or means to turn aggro back into more damage you can deal yourself (Improved Feedback pulse, Delta Prime, Redirecting Arrays).

    Problem why tanks have the reputation they do is because on the one hand there are only very few situations where the game itself makes having them beneficial (tzenkethi front and viscous cycle come to mind) while on the other hand they are always a two edged sword for the teams they play with. That’s simply because for some builds out there having a tank in team is a great asset (for example for fragile build sci ships wanting to launch wide range area of effect attacks at dense mobs). For other builds however tanks present get highly disrupting (for example tacs wishing to use +aggro benefits for themselves without the means to absorb the damage for longer durations).

    So in short it highly depends on the team you play in if your intended role as a tank is put to good use or a total waste.
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    felisean wrote: »
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  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,254 Arc User
    zizuph wrote: »
    question is, have they changed anything to make tanking count toward things like Crystalline? I see they've added a couple of more cruisers during this last break. So, I'm hoping this has been addressed in some way. The last time I played, being a tank meant never winning anything and literally getting cursed at for low DPS. There was no incentive in the end game to continue playing one.
    Tanking and healers which are not 100% the same thing have always counted towards stuff like the Crystalline. I often come in 1st place without being highest in DPS.

    DPS isn't everything my 50k DPS build often kills faster and comes better ranked then my 70k DPS build.
  • dracounguisdracounguis Member Posts: 5,358 Arc User
    Not much to tank when people blow through a Borg Cube in 2 seconds.
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,254 Arc User
    Not much to tank when people blow through a Borg Cube in 2 seconds.
    Strangely the Borg content is now the easy content. Some of the harder ones like I think it was Dranuur Guntlet have a use for multiple tanks.
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