Think they ever raised that continent?

usskentucky

In TNG Picard is nearly recruited by an organization seeking to raise up a continent from the ocean floor. Do you think there’s a new continent in the STO version of Earth? How much closer are we to continent raising technology since the episode aired? I’d think we would have it about figured out by now. Also, if there is a new continent in STO-verse, do you think any of our duty officers or bridge officers are from there? Maybe Admiral Quinn is from there and that’s why he is so awkward at parties. Who knows what new cultural habits they have developed? It could have been colonized by the talaxians, and now they are interbreeding into human culture. I think an injection of talaxian blood into the global mix would make us a more agreeable and industrious species. You?

jonsills

They never raised a new continent, because that would cause global upheaval. A planetary crust is not clay, and any attempt to mold it like clay will break large sections elsewhere. (I'm guessing one of the reasons Jean-Luc went back to Starfleet, besides his ongoing career, was because after thinking about the matter for a few moments he realized it was nonsense. People fall for all sorts of silly ideas even in an educated society - look at how many adherents such ridiculous concepts as the Hollow Earth and Flat Earth ideas have even today!)

starkaos

crashdragon wrote: »

Interbreeding with Talaxians would explain Trump.

And interbreeding with Ferengi would explain most politicians.

As for raising a new continent, there would need to be a necessity to do it. The more things change, the more people want to keep some things the same. Adding a new continent would change the Earth too much unless there was a lack of space on Earth that required it.

silverlobes

jonsills wrote: »

They never raised a new continent, because that would cause global upheaval. A planetary crust is not clay, and any attempt to mold it like clay will break large sections elsewhere. (I'm guessing one of the reasons Jean-Luc went back to Starfleet, besides his ongoing career, was because after thinking about the matter for a few moments he realized it was nonsense. People fall for all sorts of silly ideas even in an educated society - look at how many adherents such ridiculous concepts as the Hollow Earth and Flat Earth ideas have even today!)

'Any attempt'? I'm not so sure... I've read (or rather 'seen', not studied') a few articles about how the Chinese use land-reclamation techniques. Might it be possible, with 24th Century technology, to precisely shear through the crust around said continent (to minimize the effect on other plates) then use some manner of 'land reclamation' technique beneath said continent, to effectively raise it?

What's the worst that's going to happen? Magma displacement becoming underwater lava-flow? (I believe, something like that created the Giant's Causeway in Ireland) It's not as if the planet will deflate like a burst balloon I would have thought that nanite-controlled, or even transporter-based land-reclamation techniques would be able to 'plug any leaks'

starswordc

^You're going to dramatically alter the shape of the surrounding oceans, which will drastically alter currents and therefore weather patterns and ecosystems worldwide. And if you're stupid enough to try to use ubertech to do it all at once, you'll in all likelihood cause an earthquake that would make the 9.0 that caused the Indian Ocean tsunami in 2004 look like a baby knocking over his bottle.

starkaos

There is a huge difference between humans from the 21st Century raising a continent and humans from the 24th Century raising a continent. If we were to do it, then we would have to worry about drastically alter water currents, currents, weather patterns, ecosystems, and massive earthquakes. If humans from the 24th Century were to do it, then they could their extremely advanced science to accomplish it with little risk. If humans from the 24th Century can't do it, then some future humans will have the technology to do it. Just because something is impossible for us to accomplish doesn't mean it is impossible for future humans to do.

silverlobes

starswordc wrote: »

^You're going to dramatically alter the shape of the surrounding oceans, which will drastically alter currents and therefore weather patterns and ecosystems worldwide. And if you're stupid enough to try to use ubertech to do it all at once, you'll in all likelihood cause an earthquake that would make the 9.0 that caused the Indian Ocean tsunami in 2004 look like a baby knocking over his bottle.

Never suggested any such thing... The Chinese process is pretty gradual, and that's how I envisage such a process, albeit with nanites/transporter technology to be depositing the new material in a more controlled and precise manner (and very gradually) If the Enterprise-D was able to alter the tectonics of a planet pretty much on the fly, over the course of a few hours, then I don't see why a much more long-term project would present the kind of problems you speculate

Change to the weather patterns and ecosystems, I wouldn't imagine to be a significant issue, given the 24th Century's weather-modification capabilities

*ExtraForTheEditMonster

angrytarg

starkaos wrote: »

There is a huge difference between humans from the 21st Century raising a continent and humans from the 24th Century raising a continent. If we were to do it, then we would have to worry about drastically alter water currents, currents, weather patterns, ecosystems, and massive earthquakes. If humans from the 24th Century were to do it, then they could their extremely advanced science to accomplish it with little risk. If humans from the 24th Century can't do it, then some future humans will have the technology to do it. Just because something is impossible for us to accomplish doesn't mean it is impossible for future humans to do.

Future tech can magically alter anything at some point, but the problems of changing the ocean structure and thus influencing abiotic factors at a global scale is something I could not possibly imagine what kind of magic technology would suffice to minimize those effects.

But in Sci-Fi or especially Star Trek, I'd think it's an interesting idea to have another continent on Earth. Handwavium could, well, wave all the actual science away like they did with literally everything else in the show, so why not this time? Just never honestly claim that any of this could work out in real life ​​

starkaos

valoreah wrote: »

silverlobes#2676 wrote: »

Never suggested any such thing... The Chinese process is pretty gradual, and that's how I envisage such a process, albeit with nanites/transporter technology to be depositing the new material in a more controlled and precise manner (and very gradually) If the Enterprise-D was able to alter the tectonics of a planet pretty much on the fly, over the course of a few hours, then I don't see why a much more long-term project would present the kind of problems you speculate

Constructing artificial islands on top of the existing crust is a lot different than raising the planets' crust to create a new continent as was described on TNG.

And doing something with 24th Century technology is a lot different than doing it with 21st Century technology. Besides we have to base it on 24th Century Federation technology not on reality. As long as technobabble is used, then the continent can be raised.

mirrorchaos

usskentucky wrote: »

In TNG Picard is nearly recruited by an organization seeking to raise up a continent from the ocean floor. Do you think there’s a new continent in the STO version of Earth? How much closer are we to continent raising technology since the episode aired? I’d think we would have it about figured out by now. Also, if there is a new continent in STO-verse, do you think any of our duty officers or bridge officers are from there? Maybe Admiral Quinn is from there and that’s why he is so awkward at parties. Who knows what new cultural habits they have developed? It could have been colonized by the talaxians, and now they are interbreeding into human culture. I think an injection of talaxian blood into the global mix would make us a more agreeable and industrious species. You?

it is a massive undertaking even with such technologies, they may still not be ready yet as even with these technologies it might not be viable.

jonsills

The technology of the 24th Century, as shown in TNG, is amazingly advanced - but it's not magic. They're still subject to the laws of physics.

Reshaping a planetary crust such that you can cause a continent to exist that had not already without destroying the rest of the world requires something more akin to the abilities of the Q.

starkaos

jonsills wrote: »

Reshaping a planetary crust such that you can cause a continent to exist that had not already without destroying the rest of the world requires something more akin to the abilities of the Q.

A few years improving the Genesis Device would fix that problem. Reshaping a planetary crust seems incredibly simple compared to converting a dead world into a living world.

starkaos

patrickngo wrote: »

starkaos wrote: »

jonsills wrote: »

Reshaping a planetary crust such that you can cause a continent to exist that had not already without destroying the rest of the world requires something more akin to the abilities of the Q.

A few years improving the Genesis Device would fix that problem. Reshaping a planetary crust seems incredibly simple compared to converting a dead world into a living world.

um, not if you want the world to be alive when you're done reshaping that crust it isn't. It's actually easier to imagine a 'terraforming wave' that reshapes a dead world, because you're not trying to reshape that world while NOT killing all the life and life systems on it. Seriously, we're talking some HUGE energies involved here. The waste-heat alone would be enough to boil the oceans and light every bit of flammable matter on earth by itself. Then, there's the changing of the mass of the planet (unless you're going to subtract that much mass FROM the planet), disruption of the balance of the core, orbital changes that are likely...

I mean, seriously. you're adding a continent, where's all that displaced water going to go if you can MANAGE to not boil the oceans off, what's it going to do to your weather? sea life? biosphere??

With a dead world, you're really only reorganizing a big pile of raw materials. A Genesis-Bomb isn't that dangerous in that context, since it's a dead planet. Reshaping an already habitable, already inhabited world? in ways it's not already inclined to be reshaped at a pace that is by definition faster than it's geared to go on it's own?? Oy, that's MUCH harder-unless mass death and displacement isn't a problem for you on the moral or political scale.

The Lukari are capable of doing it since they decided to work on Protomatter until they got it working properly instead of being marked as too dangerous. The Genesis Device is the brute force method of dealing with Protomatter while the Lukari use it like a work of art.

Of course, the Lukari are STO canon and not Star Trek canon, but if Star Trek introduced an alien race that has mastered protomatter technology, then they would be capable of the same feats of terraforming.

silverlobes

valoreah wrote: »

silverlobes#2676 wrote: »

Never suggested any such thing... The Chinese process is pretty gradual, and that's how I envisage such a process, albeit with nanites/transporter technology to be depositing the new material in a more controlled and precise manner (and very gradually) If the Enterprise-D was able to alter the tectonics of a planet pretty much on the fly, over the course of a few hours, then I don't see why a much more long-term project would present the kind of problems you speculate

Constructing artificial islands on top of the existing crust is a lot different than raising the planets' crust to create a new continent as was described on TNG.

valoreah wrote: »

silverlobes#2676 wrote: »

Never suggested any such thing... The Chinese process is pretty gradual, and that's how I envisage such a process, albeit with nanites/transporter technology to be depositing the new material in a more controlled and precise manner (and very gradually) If the Enterprise-D was able to alter the tectonics of a planet pretty much on the fly, over the course of a few hours, then I don't see why a much more long-term project would present the kind of problems you speculate

Constructing artificial islands on top of the existing crust is a lot different than raising the planets' crust to create a new continent as was described on TNG.

valoreah wrote: »

starkaos wrote: »

And doing something with 24th Century technology is a lot different than doing it with 21st Century technology. Besides we have to base it on 24th Century Federation technology not on reality. As long as technobabble is used, then the continent can be raised.

Never said otherwise, so not sure what you're on about. All I said was lifting the tectonic plates/crust of a planet is a different method than piling more stuff on top of it.

And what I originally said, was "Might it be possible, with 24th Century technology, to precisely shear through the crust around said continent (to minimize the effect on other plates) then use some manner of 'land reclamation' technique beneath said continent, to effectively raise it?"
So not building up a new continent, in the way which a broken tooth can be capped, but built up from beneath, in the way new skin forms beneath a scab

silverlobes

jonsills wrote: »

The technology of the 24th Century, as shown in TNG, is amazingly advanced - but it's not magic. They're still subject to the laws of physics.

Reshaping a planetary crust such that you can cause a continent to exist that had not already without destroying the rest of the world requires something more akin to the abilities of the Q.

Nonsense... Phaser drills to cut through the crust, and some kind of nanite-distribution/transporter-insertion of reclaimed material beneath the existing (and now separated) area Not something which we can do, but with the technology of Picard's era (and carried out milimeter by milimeter, or even less, over years/decades) totally achievable

legendarylycan

starkaos wrote: »

patrickngo wrote: »

starkaos wrote: »

jonsills wrote: »

Reshaping a planetary crust such that you can cause a continent to exist that had not already without destroying the rest of the world requires something more akin to the abilities of the Q.

A few years improving the Genesis Device would fix that problem. Reshaping a planetary crust seems incredibly simple compared to converting a dead world into a living world.

um, not if you want the world to be alive when you're done reshaping that crust it isn't. It's actually easier to imagine a 'terraforming wave' that reshapes a dead world, because you're not trying to reshape that world while NOT killing all the life and life systems on it. Seriously, we're talking some HUGE energies involved here. The waste-heat alone would be enough to boil the oceans and light every bit of flammable matter on earth by itself. Then, there's the changing of the mass of the planet (unless you're going to subtract that much mass FROM the planet), disruption of the balance of the core, orbital changes that are likely...

I mean, seriously. you're adding a continent, where's all that displaced water going to go if you can MANAGE to not boil the oceans off, what's it going to do to your weather? sea life? biosphere??

With a dead world, you're really only reorganizing a big pile of raw materials. A Genesis-Bomb isn't that dangerous in that context, since it's a dead planet. Reshaping an already habitable, already inhabited world? in ways it's not already inclined to be reshaped at a pace that is by definition faster than it's geared to go on it's own?? Oy, that's MUCH harder-unless mass death and displacement isn't a problem for you on the moral or political scale.

The Lukari are capable of doing it since they decided to work on Protomatter until they got it working properly instead of being marked as too dangerous. The Genesis Device is the brute force method of dealing with Protomatter while the Lukari use it like a work of art.

Of course, the Lukari are STO canon and not Star Trek canon, but if Star Trek introduced an alien race that has mastered protomatter technology, then they would be capable of the same feats of terraforming.

and did it escape your notice that the only time the lukari used protomatter in the same way genesis was intended to be used was on a celestial body that had recently been STERILIZED of all life?​​

starkaos

shadowfang240 wrote: »

starkaos wrote: »

patrickngo wrote: »

starkaos wrote: »

jonsills wrote: »

Reshaping a planetary crust such that you can cause a continent to exist that had not already without destroying the rest of the world requires something more akin to the abilities of the Q.

A few years improving the Genesis Device would fix that problem. Reshaping a planetary crust seems incredibly simple compared to converting a dead world into a living world.

um, not if you want the world to be alive when you're done reshaping that crust it isn't. It's actually easier to imagine a 'terraforming wave' that reshapes a dead world, because you're not trying to reshape that world while NOT killing all the life and life systems on it. Seriously, we're talking some HUGE energies involved here. The waste-heat alone would be enough to boil the oceans and light every bit of flammable matter on earth by itself. Then, there's the changing of the mass of the planet (unless you're going to subtract that much mass FROM the planet), disruption of the balance of the core, orbital changes that are likely...

I mean, seriously. you're adding a continent, where's all that displaced water going to go if you can MANAGE to not boil the oceans off, what's it going to do to your weather? sea life? biosphere??

With a dead world, you're really only reorganizing a big pile of raw materials. A Genesis-Bomb isn't that dangerous in that context, since it's a dead planet. Reshaping an already habitable, already inhabited world? in ways it's not already inclined to be reshaped at a pace that is by definition faster than it's geared to go on it's own?? Oy, that's MUCH harder-unless mass death and displacement isn't a problem for you on the moral or political scale.

The Lukari are capable of doing it since they decided to work on Protomatter until they got it working properly instead of being marked as too dangerous. The Genesis Device is the brute force method of dealing with Protomatter while the Lukari use it like a work of art.

Of course, the Lukari are STO canon and not Star Trek canon, but if Star Trek introduced an alien race that has mastered protomatter technology, then they would be capable of the same feats of terraforming.

and did it escape your notice that the only time the lukari used protomatter in the same way genesis was intended to be used was on a celestial body that had recently been STERILIZED of all life?​​

Because the vast majority of the time, the Lukari don't need to be drastic with their Protomatter use. They need to be extremely precise with their Protomatter usage due to not wanting to STERILIZE all life. The Genesis Device is an extremely crude tool at manipulating Protomatter while Lukari use Protomatter like a paintbrush.

jonsills

I can't speak to the internal structure of the world that the Ent-D drilled into, but attempting to shear through a large section of Earth's crust will result in some really dramatic volcanic action - the more so if you're cutting through the seafloor, so you'll start with seawater hitting magma and vaporizing rather rapidly.

Then there are the objections raised above concerning matters like waste heat and weather patterns. The planet drilled in TNG was about to be destroyed, and things couldn't possibly be made much worse. Earth, on the other hand, is extremely stable, and there's little if any reason to even want a new continent, much less risk the world to make one.

Overall, the only way such a project would be approved on Earth would be if the future encountered were that of Idiocracy, rather than Trek.

silverlobes

jonsills wrote: »

I can't speak to the internal structure of the world that the Ent-D drilled into, but attempting to shear through a large section of Earth's crust will result in some really dramatic volcanic action - the more so if you're cutting through the seafloor, so you'll start with seawater hitting magma and vaporizing rather rapidly.

Which could then be reclaimed, via nanites or transporter (or other abrasive method), and re-laid, beneath the footprint of the Atlantic continent, molecule by molecule, if need be... The in-verse technology of Picard's era makes this possible

Then there are the objections raised above concerning matters like waste heat and weather patterns.

An utter irrelevance, given the in-verse existence of weather-modification technology.

The planet drilled in TNG was about to be destroyed, and things couldn't possibly be made much worse.

Utterly irrelevant to the conversation at hand though...

Earth, on the other hand, is extremely stable, and there's little if any reason to even want a new continent

Additional habitable landmass, is one potential reason... Another, would be for the same reason Kirk went rock-climbing: The challenge of doing so (and I thought according to Picard, their deal was all about working for the betterment of all mankind... Or even, best reason of all for doing anything: For the lulz

much less risk the world to make one.

No need for hyperbole, it doesn't strengthen your argument. What you laughably call 'really dramatic volcanic action', is how the Giant's Causeway was formed (and I believe other under-sea masses) It's not as if there's going to be plumes of lava shooting into the sky, or boiling the ocean away, so there really is no 'risk [to]the world' Don't be silly...

Overall, the only way such a project would be approved on Earth would be if the future encountered were that of Idiocracy, rather than Trek.

In your (clearly disprovable) opinion...

starkaos

jonsills wrote: »

Overall, the only way such a project would be approved on Earth would be if the future encountered were that of Idiocracy, rather than Trek.

Considering the idiocy of the past couple of years, some people are considering that Idiocracy is a prophetic documentary instead of a comedy. Although, another possibility is that we will end up with the Eloi and Morlocks instead of Idiocracy.

silverlobes

azrael605 wrote: »

> @silverlobes#2676 said:
> jonsills wrote: »
>
> I can't speak to the internal structure of the world that the Ent-D drilled into, but attempting to shear through a large section of Earth's crust will result in some really dramatic volcanic action - the more so if you're cutting through the seafloor, so you'll start with seawater hitting magma and vaporizing rather rapidly.
>
>
>
> Which could then be reclaimed, via nanites or transporter (or other abrasive method), and re-laid, beneath the footprint of the Atlantic continent, molecule by molecule, if need be... The in-verse technology of Picard's era makes this possible
> Then there are the objections raised above concerning matters like waste heat and weather patterns.
>
>
>
> An utter irrelevance, given the in-verse existence of weather-modification technology.
> The planet drilled in TNG was about to be destroyed, and things couldn't possibly be made much worse.
>
>
>
> Utterly irrelevant to the conversation at hand though...
> Earth, on the other hand, is extremely stable, and there's little if any reason to even want a new continent
>
>
>
> Additional habitable landmass, is one potential reason... Another, would be for the same reason Kirk went rock-climbing: The challenge of doing so (and I thought according to Picard, their deal was all about working for the betterment of all mankind... Or even, best reason of all for doing anything: For the lulz
> much less risk the world to make one.
>
>
>
> No need for hyperbole, it doesn't strengthen your argument. What you laughably call 'really dramatic volcanic action', is how the Giant's Causeway was formed (and I believe other under-sea masses) It's not as if there's going to be plumes of lava shooting into the sky, or boiling the ocean away, so there really is no 'risk [to]the world' Don't be silly...
> Overall, the only way such a project would be approved on Earth would be if the future encountered were that of Idiocracy, rather than Trek.
>
>
>
> In your (clearly disprovable) opinion...

Except you disproved nothing and you contradicted canon at multiple places.

A couple of points:
1) I have absolutely disproven jon's assertions that such a feat would be impossible with the standard technology of Picard's era.
2) Canon doesn't even come into the discussion, other than as a point of reference for what the technology of the era could accomplish.

So please, explain why you think I haven't disproven anything, and what these multiple violations of canon you are infering, are