> @silverlobes#2676 said:
> azrael605 wrote: »
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> > @silverlobes#2676 said:
> > azrael605 wrote: »
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> > > @silverlobes#2676 said:
> > > azrael605 wrote: »
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> > > It also wouldn't help for players like me who own all the T1 ships & change out of the starter ship at the earliest possible opportunity (which is the moment you hit sector space, claim the ship from c-store, and switch).
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > So if you were playing the tutorial for the first time as a completely new player, you wouldn't find it educational? Because that's what I thought tutorials are supposed to be
> > >
> > > Also, not every new player is willing to put down hard cssh Right Away until they get a feel for it
> >
> > Back when I first started playing STO the very first thing I did was buy the T1 Connie, before I even started the turorial. I really doubt that such a sequence would be helpful even for brand new players.
> >
> >
> >
> > Okay, two points, and one of them has to touch back on an observation I've directed to you before:
> >
> > -Not everyone else does things like you do. You can't assume that just because you were happy to splash the cash so soon, that every other player potentially will be as well
> >
> > -Okay, let's have a conversation How do you back up that assertion? Why do you think a completely new player, would not find it useful, to be specifically taught (while the character is still 'in learning mode' as a cadet) skills which they will need at a further point in the game?
>
> No not every player does things my way, but I know more players who did buy the T1 connie when starting out than players who bought nothing. I mean that ship is 5 dollars so it isn't "splashing the cash" it costs less than a cup of Starbucks or a burger & fries at McDonald's. Its the classic Trek ship. But I have no issues accepting that some players won't be buying it. Those players will leave the starter ship behind in a matter of hours (seriously tutorial to level 10 takes me 2 hours), so no real point in forming any emotional attachment to it IMO.
>
> On the second point, its just not worth bothering with something at level 0 that you won't run into again until level 50+ (I haven't had a character since DR that didn't hit level 50 before the Cardassian Arc).
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>
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> You're still basing your argument on your own personal experiences though, and trying to leverage that as the only correct perspective. You're also completely missing the point behind my suggestion as a means of getting The Player into the game, and learning in-game mechanics, which again, is the very point behind a tutorial And again, suit control is useful when grinding the purple rock. And again, it would enable the cutting of Some of Kurland's unnecessary interruptions to that level.
>
> But I get that you don't get it. Thanks for your thoughts
I completely get your point, I have not "missed" anything, but I do not have to agree with you .
No, you don't have to agree with me, but when I infited you to explain your reasoning for why you think it wouldn't be useful (as in Educational) all you came back with, was more opinion that people wouldn't keep the ship long enough to care. You never actually answered the question I asked you.
I am also not "basing everything on my personal experience" I'm basing it on the experiences of all the players I have known over 6 years of playing plus the experiences of the players all of them have known since they started playing.
So your own personal experience (plus anecdotes)
Nor do I feel a need to "reduce Kurland" as I have never had even a tiny problem with him or his voice bortius. I replay Boldly They Rode & the whole Cardie arc quite often by the way and this is the only part based on my experiences and opinions.
And yet again, as with most comments you make on these forums, you base your stance entirely on Your in-game experience I've seen a lot of "I've never seen that happen (so neither did you)" "I've never had a problem with doing that (so why do you??)" "I've not got a problem with that (so you shouldn't have a problem with it either) With respect, like I've said before, other people have different experiences to you. They have different thoughts on the same subject. You cannot simply dismiss other people's opinions Just Because it doesn't line up with Your experience. That's not how the world works. That's not how rational debate works. By all means, have a different opinion to mine, but at least back it up with more concrete examples than "Well I just buy the next ship, so no one else would want to do what your suggest, because that's not what I (or the people I know) have done.
If you simply Don't Like the idea, TRIBBLE, dude, just say so, I'm not going to be butthurt about it, but don't just try and dismiss it, without some decent counter arguments as to Why it (learning some more in-game controlls) wouldn't Be Helpful to a completely new player. You've been playing six years, right? Am I the first and only person to comment on how irritating Kurland's dialogue, and how intrusive and interrupting to the flow of the mission, is in Boldly They Rode? You'll have to forgive me if I find that notion hard to believe God forbid someone suggest something which might improve the flow of a very interrupted mission, and actually teach players some skills before they actually need to use them
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Your timing for such a mission is off as far as story flow goes.
Tutorial, graduation day, learn the movement keys, interaction, while getting some story and background on characters you won't see again. Shuttle to the ship and then stop trying to leave on the cadet cruise. Go finish refitting the ship. It is a story break and slows the pace.
If you were not in a tutorial where learning to walk was step one. I would say having you work on an 'un-named' Miranda getting some of the academy extra credits as Flores accuses you of before changing to your school uniform and beaming down for final ship assignments would fit better story wise. But education wise is lacking.
And sadly even if they did implement this. Didn't they say they are not redoing or touching up the previous story arcs like the 2800? So all the Kurland here nonsense would remain anyway?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Your timing for such a mission is off as far as story flow goes.
Tutorial, graduation day, learn the movement keys, interaction, while getting some story and background on characters you won't see again. Shuttle to the ship and then stop trying to leave on the cadet cruise. Go finish refitting the ship. It is a story break and slows the pace.
If you were not in a tutorial where learning to walk was step one. I would say having you work on an 'un-named' Miranda getting some of the academy extra credits as Flores accuses you of before changing to your school uniform and beaming down for final ship assignments would fit better story wise. But education wise is lacking.
And sadly even if they did implement this. Didn't they say they are not redoing or touching up the previous story arcs like the 2800? So all the Kurland here nonsense would remain anyway?
Thanks for the feedback Sure, the placement of the mission idea may not be 100% perfect, I just used that placement as it being the transfer point from ground to space, and, given Elisa's comment about how awesome the new Vesta is, what better juxtaposition to that, to be reporting to a ship which is, not only seriously outdated, but actually In Pieces?
Yeah, wouldn't surprize me if they weren't going to retouch any previous missions, but hey, no harm in hoping
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
First, I have no problem with Kurland in "Boldy They Rode." He's become, in my opinion, a classic element of STO, and I'd hate to see him removed or his presence reduced from the game. "Kurland here" is funny, and brings a smile to my face every time I hear it. I laughed when I heard it again during the final battle of the Iconian War in "Midnight." Moving on...
While, I don't necessarily like the specific idea that you've proposed, I wouldn't mind an expanded tutorial FED side that took us through some Academy training prior to graduation. It could incorporate things like EV suit operations (hulling walking and space walking) as well as other in-game mechanics that, storywise, would make more sense in a training environment, rather than cutting a greenhorn loose, fresh out of the academy, to conduct ship repair operations best left to experienced engineers.
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While, I don't necessarily like the specific idea that you've proposed, I wouldn't mind an expanded tutorial FED side that took us through some Academy training prior to graduation. It could incorporate things like EV suit operations (hulling walking and space walking) as well as other in-game mechanics that, storywise, would make more sense in a training environment, rather than cutting a greenhorn loose, fresh out of the academy, to conduct ship repair operations best left to experienced engineers.
Hmm. Maybe back the steps as it were up a bit. So you begin in one of the unused buildings finishing some of your tests before going out to see your classmates?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
While, I don't necessarily like the specific idea that you've proposed, I wouldn't mind an expanded tutorial FED side that took us through some Academy training prior to graduation. It could incorporate things like EV suit operations (hulling walking and space walking) as well as other in-game mechanics that, storywise, would make more sense in a training environment, rather than cutting a greenhorn loose, fresh out of the academy, to conduct ship repair operations best left to experienced engineers.
Hmm. Maybe back the steps as it were up a bit. So you begin in one of the unused buildings finishing some of your tests before going out to see your classmates?
Maybe. But not exclusively limited to there. First piloting would be done in a shuttle, not a starship, possibly at the Saturn flight range, throwing in some target practice for space weapons familiarity. Ground combat simulation in a holodeck. EV suit operations on the Moon or Mars. Maybe some scanning here and there. Top it all off with a solo version of the Kobayashi Maru to throw it all together.
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Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
To be honest, I don't see this lending anything to the tutorial, nor do I believe it makes much sense to have your character performing these tasks within the existing story structure. Using an EVA suit is not difficult at all really and IMO it's more appropriate to introduce that in the DS9 story arc where it makes sense to be hull walking. Story-wise, you're also not taking ownership of the ship either.
i was just thinking to Enteprise and TMP, dock yards have their own crew members to construct the ships and refit them.
So I had an idea for an addition to the Fed tutorial, to cover something which is missed, and, could have an improving effect for gameplay further down the storyline:
When taking the shuttle from the Academy up to The Ship, this happens:
The Ship is still only partially constructed.
The Player is told that The Ship is undergoing a refit (which explains why a 23rd Century hull is still being used) and The player is assigned the task of taking part in the final construction.
This would involve: Being given a basic suit for the EVA, having to do a little hulł-walking and manipulating dock controls, to bring the nacelles into position (like realigning the Helix arms) Then a little spacejump down onto the nacelle (like in Boldly They Rode) to do some welds on the pylons (like severing the cables on Nimbus) then back to the airlock.
Benefits to this extra training scenario:
The Player gets a basic suit, and learns how to fly it, which is useful for dilithium mining, and saves the need for all that constant 'Kurland here!' BS, which is massively obtrusive in Boldly They Rode, because The Player would already know how to use navigation points
The Player gets to 'take ownership' of the ship, in the same way they take creative control of their toon. There could even be a dialogue along the lines of "We're leaving spacedock without a tractor beam??" "That will be installed Tuesday..."
#JustAThought
i'm not saying no to your idea but could you give some storyline reason for why you as the acting first officer, a cadet could be given the job of walking across the hull instead of workcrews? also what reason Captain Taggert would have to let you do that by yourself?
Supervisory experience, for one, and plain 'lending a hand' for another
Perhaps prior to being given the order to suit up on the bridge, it comes over the intercom that one of the work crew has had a reaction to that Bolian souffle they had for lunch, and so Captain Taggart makes the assignment as it's another pair of hands for the job.
The Origin bridge does have two turbolifts, so maybe have the fore turbolift re-dressed into an airlock for suiting up
The game puts some interesting demands on our hapless cadet, which Only They can solve (or even with the assistance of all those other graduating cadets as a temporary 4 person away team) so why not have them tackle something like this as well? As you point out, The Player is the acting first officer, they have to fulfill all aspects of that role, not just sitting to the captain's right, in the 'break glass in an emergency' seat
Another idea, would be to have three variants of the spacewalk depending on a player's career path: Engineer has to attach a nacelle, science has to install some sensor array, or the deflector pod, and tactical has to install a phaser emitter or the torpedo launcher assembly
the last of your ideas is fair, but if you had an experienced dock worker who knows all about construction to aid you and help out on what you should and shouldn't do in space and on the hull of a ship as well as teaching you how minigames work, that might just be enough.
First, I have no problem with Kurland in "Boldy They Rode." He's become, in my opinion, a classic element of STO, and I'd hate to see him removed or his presence reduced from the game. "Kurland here" is funny, and brings a smile to my face every time I hear it. I laughed when I heard it again during the final battle of the Iconian War in "Midnight." Moving on...
In your opinion I laughed when I heard it in Midnight, but I don't like those constant pop ups in Boldy They Rode, when I'm trying to spacewalk across the hull, and the pop up blocks my view of the navigation beacon, so figured that a tutorial addition, could potentially ease some of that intrusion
While, I don't necessarily like the specific idea that you've proposed, I wouldn't mind an expanded tutorial FED side that took us through some Academy training prior to graduation. It could incorporate things like EV suit operations (hulling walking and space walking) as well as other in-game mechanics that, storywise, would make more sense in a training environment, rather than cutting a greenhorn loose, fresh out of the academy, to conduct ship repair operations best left to experienced engineers.
So perhaps a case of, at the holodeck, in addition to the Shoot the Klingon, there simply being extra scenarios to run as well? A bit like in Of Bajor, The Player has to do those holodeck missions of running down a changeling, and having a space battle? That could certainly work as well
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
How many times must I say that I am not basing anything off of just my experience before you stop ignoring it? I flat out said my stance is based on what I experienced AS WELL AS the experiences of every player I know & all the players they know (at least in so far as they have shared with me) & you just ignored it. That means the people I talk to in game every day, on the biggest channel in the game, plus people in zone chat, plus people on the forums (including you), plus all of their friends I may or may not know. Talking the whole time I'm logged in, every day, without exception. Now respectfully stop acting like a brick wall and claiming I'm saying something I'm not.
The only, ONLY, part based solely on my opinion was that there is nothing wrong with Kurland, Boldly they Rode, or the Cardassian arc. No other part of my stance is based on just my opinion, no matter how many times you claim otherwise.
It's not a matter of 'how many times', but a matter of when will you Actually Answer the question I posed you with a relevant answer to that question (And please note, I'm using laughy faces to try and show that I'm trying to keep the tone light, not as personal attacks, nor laughing At you)
You said that the scenario wouldn't be helpful to players (in terms of 'bonding with the ship') who would be purchasing another ship right away. To which I questioned wether you would find the situation itself educational if playing it for the first time. You replied that the very first thing you did was to buy a Connie, and that you doubted that the scenario would be helpful, even to new players.
So I then asked you why you thought the proposed scenario wouldn't be educational, and you replied, that the other ship options weren't expensive, and you felt it wouldn't be of any benefit forming a connection.
So yes, of course I'm going to ignore the answer you give, if it's not answering the question asked, because it's not answering the question I asked you for the time, and you told me it looks like rain
I agree, doing stuff to a base Miranda isn't going to help The Player form any connection, especially if the plan is to switch to a different ship immediately(more on that subject later) and absolutely, the cost might indeed be very small, but someone might not want to spend any money on a game, until they've actually played it for a while, and decided if they like it or not. But that doesn't negate the fact that the scenario would be teaching The Player useful skills which Will be needed later in the game, and so would eliminate the need for that flow-breaking 'how to' later
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
To be honest, I don't see this lending anything to the tutorial, nor do I believe it makes much sense to have your character performing these tasks within the existing story structure. Using an EVA suit is not difficult at all really and IMO it's more appropriate to introduce that in the DS9 story arc where it makes sense to be hull walking. Story-wise, you're also not taking ownership of the ship either.
i was just thinking to Enteprise and TMP, dock yards have their own crew members to construct the ships and refit them.
So I had an idea for an addition to the Fed tutorial, to cover something which is missed, and, could have an improving effect for gameplay further down the storyline:
When taking the shuttle from the Academy up to The Ship, this happens:
The Ship is still only partially constructed.
The Player is told that The Ship is undergoing a refit (which explains why a 23rd Century hull is still being used) and The player is assigned the task of taking part in the final construction.
This would involve: Being given a basic suit for the EVA, having to do a little hulł-walking and manipulating dock controls, to bring the nacelles into position (like realigning the Helix arms) Then a little spacejump down onto the nacelle (like in Boldly They Rode) to do some welds on the pylons (like severing the cables on Nimbus) then back to the airlock.
Benefits to this extra training scenario:
The Player gets a basic suit, and learns how to fly it, which is useful for dilithium mining, and saves the need for all that constant 'Kurland here!' BS, which is massively obtrusive in Boldly They Rode, because The Player would already know how to use navigation points
The Player gets to 'take ownership' of the ship, in the same way they take creative control of their toon. There could even be a dialogue along the lines of "We're leaving spacedock without a tractor beam??" "That will be installed Tuesday..."
#JustAThought
i'm not saying no to your idea but could you give some storyline reason for why you as the acting first officer, a cadet could be given the job of walking across the hull instead of workcrews? also what reason Captain Taggert would have to let you do that by yourself?
Supervisory experience, for one, and plain 'lending a hand' for another
Perhaps prior to being given the order to suit up on the bridge, it comes over the intercom that one of the work crew has had a reaction to that Bolian souffle they had for lunch, and so Captain Taggart makes the assignment as it's another pair of hands for the job.
The Origin bridge does have two turbolifts, so maybe have the fore turbolift re-dressed into an airlock for suiting up
The game puts some interesting demands on our hapless cadet, which Only They can solve (or even with the assistance of all those other graduating cadets as a temporary 4 person away team) so why not have them tackle something like this as well? As you point out, The Player is the acting first officer, they have to fulfill all aspects of that role, not just sitting to the captain's right, in the 'break glass in an emergency' seat
Another idea, would be to have three variants of the spacewalk depending on a player's career path: Engineer has to attach a nacelle, science has to install some sensor array, or the deflector pod, and tactical has to install a phaser emitter or the torpedo launcher assembly
the last of your ideas is fair, but if you had an experienced dock worker who knows all about construction to aid you and help out on what you should and shouldn't do in space and on the hull of a ship as well as teaching you how minigames work, that might just be enough.
Sure, that would also be a good alternative, if The Player is simply being told to report to the construction area, and the Dock Master says what needs to be done and guides The Player through the necessary operations. That could definitely work just as well
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
While, I don't necessarily like the specific idea that you've proposed, I wouldn't mind an expanded tutorial FED side that took us through some Academy training prior to graduation. It could incorporate things like EV suit operations (hulling walking and space walking) as well as other in-game mechanics that, storywise, would make more sense in a training environment, rather than cutting a greenhorn loose, fresh out of the academy, to conduct ship repair operations best left to experienced engineers.
I think this would be prohibitive to adding new mechanics into the game. Each time the Devs wanted to add something new like the grapple gun, they would have to modify the tutorial to accommodate "training" on the new item.
Personally, I think having to run around doing stuff like scanning, EV walks, grappling, etc. would be too dry as from my experience most players want to jump right into piloting a ship.
There is a slight difference though. Grappling, is a 'click the dialogue box and mash the spacebar' scenario. Adjusting a mining drill (or radiation scan) takes a bit more coordination, and so does long-distance spacewalking (ie clicking the next nav point and hitting spacejump before reaching the first one being travelled towards.) For example, in Boldly They Rode, it is possible (if timed right, and Kurnland keeps his yap off the comm) to glide from the isolinear reconfiguring game, along the arm, up the wall, to the top where the next cutscene occurs. But that takes a bit of practice to be able to do (and it is often interrupted by Tubby K) And if as you say, most (which I consider purely speculative) want to just jump straight into piloting a ship, then as BMR suggested, have several training scenarios, after Shoot the Klingon, and it wouldn't be hard to have a piloting exercise, placed before the EVA training New Player gets their early dose of piloting, and gets to learn some skillz at the same time
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Adjusting mining drills, scanning mini-games, spacewalking and the like (which takes place using way points in only 1 or 2 missions) are not difficult to master at all. The missions they occur in do an adequate job teaching a player how to use them IMO. Not to mention, spacewalking is something that happens so very little in the game, it doesn't make much sense to waste time on it in a tutorial. The existing tutorial I believe does an adequate job of demonstrating the basics. Anything beyond that is best left to tribal knowledge from other players, which is always going to be far superior to anything the Developers can implement.
And again, I'm not saying that those things are difficult, but that having to work them out (even if a few moments) during gameplay, is a distraction from the flow of the game. Covering them in the tutorial and earliest missions, would prepare The Player for when hose things do crop up. Who knows, perhaps there will be more spacewalk missions in future, or everyone gets an invite the the annual Dilithium Jamboree, where there's nothing to do But mine the purple rock.
That it's not necessarily heavily featured now, doesn't mean that it might no t be featured again in future missions. Once upon a time, the notion of a T6 Connie was CrazyTalk, yet here they are
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
I don't find them to be distracting at all to be honest. I believe it preferable to have these specific training scenarios occur in the mission(s) where they are used rather than showing it to you once when you start the tutorial and then coming back to it at a later time.
Personally, I think the spacewalk on DS9 is just fine as it is, even with the annoyance of that pimply, effeminate voice of Kurlands'. It doesn't upset the flow of the story as it makes sense he is guiding you to what you need to do in order to get inside the station. Kurland is more familiar with the station than your Captain.
You might not, but others might. Personally, I do, which is why I offered a suggestion for an alternative. You don't agree with that, fine, but at least have the courtesy not to TRIBBLE on other people's ideas or argue with them for a justification.
I've justified my thoughts. Nikeix and I don't see eye to eye on everything, if much, but what was their response, before you threw your hat in the ring? Massive endorsement of the idea. BMR and I, again, don't see eye to eye at all. He disagreed with some of my proposal' but still came up with additional suggestions which were, IMO, even better than my proposal. You've made clear you disagree. Fine. Thanks for your thoughts
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
There are any number of tasks/skills like mining, piloting shuttles, repelling, mini-games/puzzles and the like that aren't covered in the tutorial...
I'd be hard-pressed to include rappelling as a skill since it just seems to be kind of a "press here to make the game do something for you now" sort of affair. (I was a bit disappointed when I saw it in game because I'd been hoping it would have been player-directed not plot-directed.) Likewise the in-mission shuttle "piloting" purely for transportation.
I kind of like the OP's ideas, still. Previewing the mining by welding down hull plates with that UI seems like something that might be interesting to do--although only engineering officers would be sent out to do it. "Dammit, Jim, I'm a doctor, not a welder!"--right?
There are any number of tasks/skills like mining, piloting shuttles, repelling, mini-games/puzzles and the like that aren't covered in the tutorial...
I'd be hard-pressed to include rappelling as a skill since it just seems to be kind of a "press here to make the game do something for you now" sort of affair. (I was a bit disappointed when I saw it in game because I'd been hoping it would have been player-directed not plot-directed.) Likewise the in-mission shuttle "piloting" purely for transportation.
I kind of like the OP's ideas, still. Previewing the mining by welding down hull plates with that UI seems like something that might be interesting to do--although only engineering officers would be sent out to do it. "Dammit, Jim, I'm a doctor, not a welder!"--right?
Thanks This was why I came up with the secondary suggestion, that while an engineer could do something like aligning and welding a nacelle, science could do something related to the deflector, or a sensor palette, and tactical could do something related to the torpedo launcher or a phaser array, so it could be a career-specific activity
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
I think the OP's idea is good, especially with baddmoonrizin's improvements. I would have no objection to the idea.
But an idea I would support wholeheartedly is that the tutorial also include explanations of how ships and characters are built in this game and how that interacts with your character build and BOff powers. Later, as each new feature is implemented, DOffing, Traits, etc. there should be a mini-tutorial to explain how those interact with your build. (Not your specific build, but in general.)
For example, you have just received your orders to assume command of your starter ship. Quinn says something like, "She's berthed in the San Francisco Fleet Shipyards, (or Utopia Planetia, since Mars Orbit map exists but is seldom used,) undergoing repairs. You need to get those repairs completed and get underway in seventy-two hours. Dismissed."
From there you go to the yard where you have options between weapons, ship gear, consoles, and consumables, Mk II of course. The Yard engineer explains that each component can interact with others, how power levels affect gear, how to set up a basic powers tray for ease of use, etc, and finally, how to integrate the captain's abilities into the build.
At T1 all of these choices are limited, so such a tutorial would be simple. Doing it at level 50 would require a whole new game, but the current system of hinting here and there leads to great angst every time a player hits 60 and discovers that his jack of all trades rainbow build won't cut it in the queues.
Assume all gear in the following example is Mk II White or Infinity, (levels with you at white quality.)
Starfleet Engineer: The Warp Core is your primary power supply for the ship. In time you may choose to learn the skills Warp Core Potential and Warp Core Efficiency, which will improve warp core performance. The type of warp core you choose can also affect your ship's performance in other areas. We have four warp core types which will fit your ship:
Standard = Mk II upgradeable. Default warp core for starter ships.
Weapons = Mk Infinity with +5 weapon power "This will improve the damage your energy weapons can do, but does not help Torpedoes."
Auxiliary = Mk Infinity with +5 auxiliary power "This will improve many Science and Engineering BOff Powers which are based on Auxiliary Power setting."
Engines = Mk Infinity with +5 Engine power "This will improve your ship's turn rate and speed."
And as the Engineer leads you through gear selection each piece you add is explained not only in what it does, but in how it affects each other piece. Impulse Engine selection will discuss engine power levels, flight speed, and turn rate, while shield selection will discuss Shield Hardness, both the skill and its effect in battle, etc.
The existing tutorials teach you how to do things in game, but nothing in game begins to prepare the player for end game content. Doing so starting at Tier 1 will make each bite smaller and easier to chew, and by the time a player gets to level 50 he will understand that there are interrelations between various aspects of a build. Heck, it doesn't even show you that you don't get accurate numbers on your ship stats page if you aren't in space.
And of course, it should be skippable so the guys who know everything already don't have to do it again
You might not, but others might. Personally, I do, which is why I offered a suggestion for an alternative. You don't agree with that, fine, but at least have the courtesy not to **** on other people's ideas or argue with them for a justification.
I've justified my thoughts. Nikeix and I don't see eye to eye on everything, if much, but what was their response, before you threw your hat in the ring? Massive endorsement of the idea. BMR and I, again, don't see eye to eye at all. He disagreed with some of my proposal' but still came up with additional suggestions which were, IMO, even better than my proposal. You've made clear you disagree. Fine. Thanks for your thoughts
I've never claimed to speak for anyone else, nor have I said anyone's ideas are invalid, nor am I arguing. You're more than welcome to continue to support your idea. No one has said you should not. I'm simply offering an opinion based on my own point of view. I just don't find the idea worthwhile as it I don't feel it lends anything to the tutorial in terms of story or gameplay, especially for mechanics that are used so infrequently in the game.
To be honest, I don't see this lending anything to the tutorial, nor do I believe it makes much sense to have your character performing these tasks within the existing story structure. Using an EVA suit is not difficult at all really and IMO it's more appropriate to introduce that in the DS9 story arc where it makes sense to be hull walking. Story-wise, you're also not taking ownership of the ship either.
There are any number of tasks/skills like mining, piloting shuttles, repelling, mini-games/puzzles and the like that aren't covered in the tutorial and IMO aren't needed to be included at that time. As far as having an attachment to your starter ship or gaining a sense of scale, you're in the tutorial ship for such a short period of time it's not worth the added time to the mission IMO. Your character will command many ships throughout their in-game career (most of which will probably be far larger than the Miranda) and you never get a sense of their true scale either, even if they happen to be the ships shown inside ESD.
And even if you don't have any of the C-Store ships, you're in your starter Miranda for such a short time, the average player is going to be excited to try a newer ship anyway once they finish the tutorial and first 1 or 2 missions.
To be honest, I don't know that shipbuilding is something I would be trusting on a whim to a recent Academy graduate with no shipbuilding experience.
Don't try and claim that that's 'constructive criticism', because it's not. Not by any stretch of the imagination. It's outright dismissal of the suggestion and the idea. BMR might not have agreed with all of my premise, but he at least had the courtesy to offer some alternative (and IMO better) suggestions. What've you done? Dismissed the idea because you disagree (your right, I suppose, but I'm not sure why you even felt the need to comment anyway, if you were only going to be dismissive, rather than actually adding to a conversation) and then kept doubling down trying to defend your dismissal, with notions of things which are either premises upon which the entire game is based, such as Advanced Beyond Ones Years, and Only You Can Fix It, or conflating skills which require a modicum of coordination and interactivity, with something which requires nothing more than a Click Here and Leave It To The Game.
I've already acknowledged that you don't agree with the notion, said to leave it at that, so let's do just that
*Extra text to thwart edit bug*
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Maybe. But not exclusively limited to there. First piloting would be done in a shuttle, not a starship, possibly at the Saturn flight range, throwing in some target practice for space weapons familiarity. Ground combat simulation in a holodeck. EV suit operations on the Moon or Mars. Maybe some scanning here and there. Top it all off with a solo version of the Kobayashi Maru to throw it all together.
Piloting a shuttle might be deceptive for a player though. Shuttles perform far differently in terms of speed and maneuverability as opposed to larger starships. You would be presenting a player with one flight experience then putting them into another. It might come off as confusing to some.
Think of it like the finishing touches to your training: passing the shuttle exams around Saturn before you are given control over the Miranda class ship later on. In any examination you intend to pass, learning is apart of the process.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Think of it like the finishing touches to your training: passing the shuttle exams around Saturn before you are given control over the Miranda class ship later on. In any examination you intend to pass, learning is apart of the process.
Oh I can understand it from a story perspective just fine. However, I was talking about player experience which is something noted as important throughout the discussion here. I think it might confuse some people as to why they are suddenly experiencing a much slower, less maneuverable ship once they graduate.
And again, piloting a shuttle is something we do so infrequently throughout the game. The tutorial should stick to the very basic things a player needs to know in my opinion. "One-off" training is covered just fine in the missions where it is required.
Your right, sorry valoreah. There should be something noted in the storyline itself that will prepare the player for a slower ship like Captain Taggart mentioning that larger ships are usually slower to turn and speed up depending on what their purposes is, escort, cruisers and science ships, perhaps a holodeck simulator on what it's like to work with a larger ship again as another form of preparation besides the phaser holodeck simulation.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Comments
So your own personal experience
And yet again, as with most comments you make on these forums, you base your stance entirely on Your in-game experience
If you simply Don't Like the idea, TRIBBLE, dude, just say so, I'm not going to be butthurt about it, but don't just try and dismiss it, without some decent counter arguments as to Why it (learning some more in-game controlls) wouldn't Be Helpful to a completely new player. You've been playing six years, right? Am I the first and only person to comment on how irritating Kurland's dialogue, and how intrusive and interrupting to the flow of the mission, is in Boldly They Rode? You'll have to forgive me if I find that notion hard to believe
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Tutorial, graduation day, learn the movement keys, interaction, while getting some story and background on characters you won't see again. Shuttle to the ship and then stop trying to leave on the cadet cruise. Go finish refitting the ship. It is a story break and slows the pace.
If you were not in a tutorial where learning to walk was step one. I would say having you work on an 'un-named' Miranda getting some of the academy extra credits as Flores accuses you of before changing to your school uniform and beaming down for final ship assignments would fit better story wise. But education wise is lacking.
And sadly even if they did implement this. Didn't they say they are not redoing or touching up the previous story arcs like the 2800? So all the Kurland here nonsense would remain anyway?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Yeah, wouldn't surprize me if they weren't going to retouch any previous missions, but hey, no harm in hoping
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
While, I don't necessarily like the specific idea that you've proposed, I wouldn't mind an expanded tutorial FED side that took us through some Academy training prior to graduation. It could incorporate things like EV suit operations (hulling walking and space walking) as well as other in-game mechanics that, storywise, would make more sense in a training environment, rather than cutting a greenhorn loose, fresh out of the academy, to conduct ship repair operations best left to experienced engineers.
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Hmm. Maybe back the steps as it were up a bit. So you begin in one of the unused buildings finishing some of your tests before going out to see your classmates?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Maybe. But not exclusively limited to there. First piloting would be done in a shuttle, not a starship, possibly at the Saturn flight range, throwing in some target practice for space weapons familiarity. Ground combat simulation in a holodeck. EV suit operations on the Moon or Mars. Maybe some scanning here and there. Top it all off with a solo version of the Kobayashi Maru to throw it all together.
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the last of your ideas is fair, but if you had an experienced dock worker who knows all about construction to aid you and help out on what you should and shouldn't do in space and on the hull of a ship as well as teaching you how minigames work, that might just be enough.
hahaha
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
So perhaps a case of, at the holodeck, in addition to the Shoot the Klingon, there simply being extra scenarios to run as well? A bit like in Of Bajor, The Player has to do those holodeck missions of running down a changeling, and having a space battle? That could certainly work as well
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
You said that the scenario wouldn't be helpful to players (in terms of 'bonding with the ship') who would be purchasing another ship right away. To which I questioned wether you would find the situation itself educational if playing it for the first time. You replied that the very first thing you did was to buy a Connie, and that you doubted that the scenario would be helpful, even to new players.
So I then asked you why you thought the proposed scenario wouldn't be educational, and you replied, that the other ship options weren't expensive, and you felt it wouldn't be of any benefit forming a connection.
So yes, of course I'm going to ignore the answer you give, if it's not answering the question asked, because it's not answering the question
I agree, doing stuff to a base Miranda isn't going to help The Player form any connection, especially if the plan is to switch to a different ship immediately(more on that subject later) and absolutely, the cost might indeed be very small, but someone might not want to spend any money on a game, until they've actually played it for a while, and decided if they like it or not. But that doesn't negate the fact that the scenario would be teaching The Player useful skills which Will be needed later in the game, and so would eliminate the need for that flow-breaking 'how to' later
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
That it's not necessarily heavily featured now, doesn't mean that it might no t be featured again in future missions. Once upon a time, the notion of a T6 Connie was CrazyTalk, yet here they are
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
I've justified my thoughts. Nikeix and I don't see eye to eye on everything, if much, but what was their response, before you threw your hat in the ring? Massive endorsement of the idea. BMR and I, again, don't see eye to eye at all. He disagreed with some of my proposal' but still came up with additional suggestions which were, IMO, even better than my proposal. You've made clear you disagree. Fine. Thanks for your thoughts
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
I'd be hard-pressed to include rappelling as a skill since it just seems to be kind of a "press here to make the game do something for you now" sort of affair. (I was a bit disappointed when I saw it in game because I'd been hoping it would have been player-directed not plot-directed.) Likewise the in-mission shuttle "piloting" purely for transportation.
I kind of like the OP's ideas, still. Previewing the mining by welding down hull plates with that UI seems like something that might be interesting to do--although only engineering officers would be sent out to do it. "Dammit, Jim, I'm a doctor, not a welder!"--right?
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
But an idea I would support wholeheartedly is that the tutorial also include explanations of how ships and characters are built in this game and how that interacts with your character build and BOff powers. Later, as each new feature is implemented, DOffing, Traits, etc. there should be a mini-tutorial to explain how those interact with your build. (Not your specific build, but in general.)
For example, you have just received your orders to assume command of your starter ship. Quinn says something like, "She's berthed in the San Francisco Fleet Shipyards, (or Utopia Planetia, since Mars Orbit map exists but is seldom used,) undergoing repairs. You need to get those repairs completed and get underway in seventy-two hours. Dismissed."
From there you go to the yard where you have options between weapons, ship gear, consoles, and consumables, Mk II of course. The Yard engineer explains that each component can interact with others, how power levels affect gear, how to set up a basic powers tray for ease of use, etc, and finally, how to integrate the captain's abilities into the build.
At T1 all of these choices are limited, so such a tutorial would be simple. Doing it at level 50 would require a whole new game, but the current system of hinting here and there leads to great angst every time a player hits 60 and discovers that his jack of all trades rainbow build won't cut it in the queues.
Assume all gear in the following example is Mk II White or Infinity, (levels with you at white quality.)
Starfleet Engineer: The Warp Core is your primary power supply for the ship. In time you may choose to learn the skills Warp Core Potential and Warp Core Efficiency, which will improve warp core performance. The type of warp core you choose can also affect your ship's performance in other areas. We have four warp core types which will fit your ship:
Standard = Mk II upgradeable. Default warp core for starter ships.
Weapons = Mk Infinity with +5 weapon power "This will improve the damage your energy weapons can do, but does not help Torpedoes."
Auxiliary = Mk Infinity with +5 auxiliary power "This will improve many Science and Engineering BOff Powers which are based on Auxiliary Power setting."
Engines = Mk Infinity with +5 Engine power "This will improve your ship's turn rate and speed."
And as the Engineer leads you through gear selection each piece you add is explained not only in what it does, but in how it affects each other piece. Impulse Engine selection will discuss engine power levels, flight speed, and turn rate, while shield selection will discuss Shield Hardness, both the skill and its effect in battle, etc.
The existing tutorials teach you how to do things in game, but nothing in game begins to prepare the player for end game content. Doing so starting at Tier 1 will make each bite smaller and easier to chew, and by the time a player gets to level 50 he will understand that there are interrelations between various aspects of a build. Heck, it doesn't even show you that you don't get accurate numbers on your ship stats page if you aren't in space.
And of course, it should be skippable so the guys who know everything already don't have to do it again
And your second?
And your third?
Don't try and claim that that's 'constructive criticism', because it's not. Not by any stretch of the imagination. It's outright dismissal of the suggestion and the idea. BMR might not have agreed with all of my premise, but he at least had the courtesy to offer some alternative (and IMO better) suggestions. What've you done? Dismissed the idea because you disagree (your right, I suppose, but I'm not sure why you even felt the need to comment anyway, if you were only going to be dismissive, rather than actually adding to a conversation) and then kept doubling down trying to defend your dismissal, with notions of things which are either premises upon which the entire game is based, such as Advanced Beyond Ones Years, and Only You Can Fix It, or conflating skills which require a modicum of coordination and interactivity, with something which requires nothing more than a Click Here and Leave It To The Game.
I've already acknowledged that you don't agree with the notion, said to leave it at that, so let's do just that
*Extra text to thwart edit bug*
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Think of it like the finishing touches to your training: passing the shuttle exams around Saturn before you are given control over the Miranda class ship later on. In any examination you intend to pass, learning is apart of the process.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Your right, sorry valoreah. There should be something noted in the storyline itself that will prepare the player for a slower ship like Captain Taggart mentioning that larger ships are usually slower to turn and speed up depending on what their purposes is, escort, cruisers and science ships, perhaps a holodeck simulator on what it's like to work with a larger ship again as another form of preparation besides the phaser holodeck simulation.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.