The way I understood it is that Section 31 is an un-official organisation that uses a loophole in the federation charter to appear "official" but they have no oversight or official authority but thanks to that loophole no-one can openly confront them and I also suspect that those who'd try to close said loophole would meet with accidents.
In essence Section 31 is pro-UFP terrorist organization that cannot be officially disbanded due a legal loophole but they aren't official agents of the UFP goverment either or at least they're not that because they're members of section 31 and just because some members of section 31 are members of Starfleet or civilian goverment of the Federation it doesn't mean section 31 is an official federation agency.
That wouldn't work. It's either specifically mentioned in the charter and exists or isn't and dosn't. They're officially part of Starfleet and specifically Starfleet Intelligence. There's no loophole there, the Charter can be checked by anybody I'd imagine.
why do you think the organization "section 31" is specifically mentioned in the Federation charter, rather then section 31 of the federation charter having some vague (presumebly intentionally so seeing as S31 predates the UFP) wording that terrorist organization of the same name uses as a cover to remain in a legally/officially grey area.
When it comes to the official status of Section 31 members of said organization are probably the worst source possible, a much better idea of what real legal status of section 31 can be gotten from how Starfleet officers or Federation authorities react to them which is essentially arrest if their involvement can be proven without a shadow of a dout, that doesn't sound like section 31 is officially sanctioned does it?
The way I understood it is that Section 31 is an un-official organisation that uses a loophole in the federation charter to appear "official" but they have no oversight or official authority but thanks to that loophole no-one can openly confront them and I also suspect that those who'd try to close said loophole would meet with accidents.
In essence Section 31 is pro-UFP terrorist organization that cannot be officially disbanded due a legal loophole but they aren't official agents of the UFP goverment either or at least they're not that because they're members of section 31 and just because some members of section 31 are members of Starfleet or civilian goverment of the Federation it doesn't mean section 31 is an official federation agency.
That wouldn't work. It's either specifically mentioned in the charter and exists or isn't and dosn't. They're officially part of Starfleet and specifically Starfleet Intelligence. There's no loophole there, the Charter can be checked by anybody I'd imagine.
why do you think the organization "section 31" is specifically mentioned in the Federation charter, rather then section 31 of the federation charter having some vague (presumebly intentionally so seeing as S31 predates the UFP) wording that terrorist organization of the same name uses as a cover to remain in a legally/officially grey area.
In fact, ISTR that when the organization (if it is an organization - we've only ever seen one representative of it at a time) was introduced, it was mentioned that the name derived from "Article XIV, Section 31 of the Federation Charter," which permits Federation members to defend themselves by whatever means they deem necessary during times of emergency. All you have to do is keep redefining what "emergency" is, and you can justify your existence. On the other hand, the representatives also always seemed to me like high-budget versions of the US' "sovereign citizens", who seize upon all manner of weird interpretations of law to claim they aren't really citizens of the US. (My favorite is probably the claim that if your name is spelled in all caps on a document, it isn't your "real" name, so the document doesn't apply to you. Either that, or the one where if there's a gold fringe on a US flag in a courtroom, that means it must be a maritime court, and unable to enforce landbound law - that one's good for a chuckle or two.) In this case, they seem like extremists who really, really want to interpret Article XIV Section 31 to mean they get to run around the galaxy playing Space James Bond, and in a post-scarcity society money isn't really a limitation any more (they don't need to go online and beg for snacks!).
The way I understood it is that Section 31 is an un-official organisation that uses a loophole in the federation charter to appear "official" but they have no oversight or official authority but thanks to that loophole no-one can openly confront them and I also suspect that those who'd try to close said loophole would meet with accidents.
In essence Section 31 is pro-UFP terrorist organization that cannot be officially disbanded due a legal loophole but they aren't official agents of the UFP goverment either or at least they're not that because they're members of section 31 and just because some members of section 31 are members of Starfleet or civilian goverment of the Federation it doesn't mean section 31 is an official federation agency.
That wouldn't work. It's either specifically mentioned in the charter and exists or isn't and dosn't. They're officially part of Starfleet and specifically Starfleet Intelligence. There's no loophole there, the Charter can be checked by anybody I'd imagine.
why do you think the organization "section 31" is specifically mentioned in the Federation charter, rather then section 31 of the federation charter having some vague (presumebly intentionally so seeing as S31 predates the UFP) wording that terrorist organization of the same name uses as a cover to remain in a legally/officially grey area.
When it comes to the official status of Section 31 members of said organization are probably the worst source possible, a much better idea of what real legal status of section 31 can be gotten from how Starfleet officers or Federation authorities react to them which is essentially arrest if their involvement can be proven without a shadow of a dout, that doesn't sound like section 31 is officially sanctioned does it?
Because to see it the way you do requires mental gymnastics of a very bendy sort. You might have been able to claim it from DS9 alone but if you think a bunch of terrorists bluffed Starfleet into giving them a space station and all the funding and resources needed to build a ship more powerful than anything else in Starfleet then you're barking up the wrong tree.
I think also that the amount of high ranking Federation officers including Sisko and Ross that have enough even circumstantial evidence to arrest Slone shows it's sanctioned. Plus their bloody starbase.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
The way I understood it is that Section 31 is an un-official organisation that uses a loophole in the federation charter to appear "official" but they have no oversight or official authority but thanks to that loophole no-one can openly confront them and I also suspect that those who'd try to close said loophole would meet with accidents.
In essence Section 31 is pro-UFP terrorist organization that cannot be officially disbanded due a legal loophole but they aren't official agents of the UFP goverment either or at least they're not that because they're members of section 31 and just because some members of section 31 are members of Starfleet or civilian goverment of the Federation it doesn't mean section 31 is an official federation agency.
That wouldn't work. It's either specifically mentioned in the charter and exists or isn't and dosn't. They're officially part of Starfleet and specifically Starfleet Intelligence. There's no loophole there, the Charter can be checked by anybody I'd imagine.
why do you think the organization "section 31" is specifically mentioned in the Federation charter, rather then section 31 of the federation charter having some vague (presumebly intentionally so seeing as S31 predates the UFP) wording that terrorist organization of the same name uses as a cover to remain in a legally/officially grey area.
When it comes to the official status of Section 31 members of said organization are probably the worst source possible, a much better idea of what real legal status of section 31 can be gotten from how Starfleet officers or Federation authorities react to them which is essentially arrest if their involvement can be proven without a shadow of a dout, that doesn't sound like section 31 is officially sanctioned does it?
Because to see it the way you do requires mental gymnastics of a very bendy sort. You might have been able to claim it from DS9 alone but if you think a bunch of terrorists bluffed Starfleet into giving them a space station and all the funding and resources needed to build a ship more powerful than anything else in Starfleet then you're barking up the wrong tree.
Does this Section 31 station you're referring to appear anywhere other than STID, where Starfleet itself was commanded by a member of Section 31 that could have easily pulled some strings and had the station, and other resources, sorta just... disappear, for Section 31's use?
Winning.
It's what I do. It's what I just did. It's what I'm about to do again. It's being undisputed emperor of an empire that cannot be disproved as the most powerful intergalactic empire in the entire universe; I always win, and everything I've won will definitely be won again... by me. It's my signature move, and thus, it's my signature. Problem, Sonic? Yeah, I mean you, Sonic, because you're being beat up, despite your being super. You can't even hit Shadow back, can you? Nope, he's too strong for you. Of course, I'm not Shadow, I'm the Super Emerald fueled fox that's pulling the strings; trust me, the fight would only be a few frames long if I were in it personally. Oh, and here's something for all you guys thinking you can win Last Post Wins 3.0; trust me, I'll be around a long while after the sun has already consumed the Earth while I sit out with the forum servers on Titan. Yes, I mean Titan... that comparatively little moon orbiting Saturn. It's a nice little place in a version of our solar system where the sun is a lot bigger. I mean, Mars will last longer than your precious Earth, but by then, it'll be one hot planet... and I figure Saturn's moon will be about the right temperate for a super-powered warlord. Oh, and trust me, I packed a lot of rings, and I mean a lot. Trillions, in fact, so I'll never run out of rings to power my super form. Besides, if I start to run out, I can just chaos control more rings into my reach. It's quite easy, really. You should try it. Granted, you'll never have the 7 Super Emeralds that I have in my possession, nor the Master Emerald that I've got hidden away somewhere... absorbed into my body thanks to Sonic logic, but whatever. I win. Again. I'm not kidding, either. Just check Last Post Wins, and if the last post isn't mine, it soon will be. Very, very soon. You can count on it. Seriously. By the way, if you're wondering, there's a really great Super Tails sprite sheet out there... somewhere... by some guy named shadow_91. These sprites are really great. Like, really good. Quality. Just like what I like to see in a sprite sheet. Also, credit to Joe T.E., his Sonic Battle style Super Sonic sprites have a great palette for a Super Sonic being beat up by Super Shadow, who's palette is from a Super Shadow sheet of unknown origin, but it turns out they were "borrowed" from a better sheet made by a certain Domenico. Oh, and the gif is actually a custom made super version of a similar gif, of which there are only 3 or 4 copies to be found by Google, and even then, evidently of an unknown source. Yep, it's one of those things. Stuff people have made, spread around, only for it to vanish and you to be the only person who still has a copy, not even knowing where it came from... like, literally at all. Oh, and anyone notice that Shadow's little chaos snap blast thingies are red and blue now? Yeah, I changed it. Problem, fans of purple? Yeah, I know you got a problem with that one, but you can just deal with it. After all, according to all known laws of aviation, there is no way a bee should be able to fly... alright, alright, I'll spare you the entire Bee Movie script, just Google it if you want. By the way, ever wonder how your characters would've ended up if they evolved in another universe? Yeah, that. Think about it. Ok, so you probably didn't bother reading up to here, but whatever, here's a surprise for you guys over at ESD (RP) who were crazy enough to read this: Emperor Nat of the mcfreakin' Terran Empire is gonna be right all along! The universe is gonna go BOOM! *Thumbs up to the insanity*
Oh, now don't tell me you want in on all this! Well, ok. Look this that Egg Pawn hanging outside your window, pointing his laser rifle at you, waiting for my next order. He's doing his part. He helps conquer the weak-minded. He roboticizes the weak-bodied. Heck, he even helps keep the useless people from causing any trouble, but you know what? Join. Find the closest Nataran Empire roboticization center near you and join the ranks, before the ranks find you. Oh, I know, you figure it must be so satisfying to know I basically rule the world now, and you know what? It is, but do you want to know the true definition of satisfaction? Well, let me tell you a little story. One day, you see a brand new event. They're giving out boxes that give old event stuff. Your dilithium is plentiful. You buy a whole lot of Phoenix packs on your main, and open them all. You get one epic token. Then, you decide, that since you have all the Breen ships and don't give a damn about the others, you exchange it for an ultra rare, and grab yourself a Jem'Hadar Attack Ship and for the hell of it, a Voth Bulwark. You open both, leaving the Bulwark in your vast masses of starships as you jump into the bugship and deck it out, deck by deck, into the most awesome Jem'Hadar ship you can. You fly it. You enjoy it. Eventually, you get bored and leave, leaving the old Bulwark never flown... until later. Your main is long complete. Your new alt main, based off some character you pulled out of nothing just to explain away some starship being in service without the command of your dear admiral, is also complete. Mostly. Their reps and doffs are hard at work, getting you stuff. You realize the potential, and head back for your dear admiral, pull the most Voth themed build you can out of thin air, and suit up in your giant ship in the shape of you know what. You head out... and cause all sorts of havoc. Enemies scream out your name as their very life is drained away by your swarms of Aceton Assimilators. They complain to the devs of your OPness when you revive yourself from death every time you die. Do you show any form of mercy? No. After all, this isn't the United Federation of Planets, this is mother frakkin' Starfleet, where you explore strange new worlds and kick butt never kicked before. Oh, and you realize that I just wrote another speech rivaling your own signature. Cool. Oh, wait, that's just the original draft, it is part of my signature now. Oh, and yes, I am aware that I have become a Canadian Regent; one day, sooner than you'd expect, we'll suddenly decide to take over the world and declare an "alliance", and I shall become it's Regent. You know, like the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance in the mirror universe of our beloved Star Trek. Oh, who'll we be taking over with? I dunno, maybe [REDACTED], or maybe aliens from outer space. Guess you'll have to wait and find out, won't we? Until then, don't ask too many questions, or else my Breen allies on Titania might pick up on your -- [REDACTED BY BREEN CONFEDERACY FOR REASONS] Also, psst... keep an eye out for flying Tribbles! Also walls. Big, great walls, separating entire continents apart. Walls patrolled by Tribbles. Flying Tribbles. Flying Nukara Tribbles. Don't worry, it's not like they were on Venus with a herd of Tholians or anything, they just like the extreme heat and brutal weather like acid rain and hurricane force winds as the norm. Oh, and definitely keep your eye out on any two-tailed foxes, because if they ain't glowing, they're definitely an imposter. Possibly an Undine, we caught one of those once in my place once. Oh, and if you find a two-tailed fox that doesn't like the cold... most certainly ask him to say sorry. If he refuses, DESTROY HIM WITH A DOOMSDAY MACHINE, BECAUSE THERE'S NOTHING ELSE THAT WOULD BE ENOUGH AGAINST SUCH AN OVERPOWERED IMPOSTER!
tr;dr, I am winning last post wins 3.0. Thank you for your time.
Also where was it said that the Dreadnaught-class was section 31 project (and more importantly who said it), it wouldn't be that odd that Starfleet would have top secret projects known only to the top brass (you know the same top brass that was killed with exception of Adm. Marcus), for all we know the Dreadnaught-class was starfleet response to the Narada and Marcus and section 31 made use of that project for their own ends.
Also where was it said that the Dreadnaught-class was section 31 project (and more importantly who said it), it wouldn't be that odd that Starfleet would have top secret projects known only to the top brass (you know the same top brass that was killed with exception of Adm. Marcus), for all we know the Dreadnaught-class was starfleet response to the Narada and Marcus and section 31 made use of that project for their own ends.
It is made clear that Khan helped in the Dreadnought class's design. Sure, he was given the alias of John Harrison, but one thing is clear; the Vengeance wasn't just designed and built by Starfleet only for Section 31 to take it for themselves. They had a hand in it's creation.
Also, the top brass wasn't all killed, the meeting of various admirals and captains that got attacked by Khan were the senior commanders of the local sector, not just, you know, the admiralty itself.
Winning.
It's what I do. It's what I just did. It's what I'm about to do again. It's being undisputed emperor of an empire that cannot be disproved as the most powerful intergalactic empire in the entire universe; I always win, and everything I've won will definitely be won again... by me. It's my signature move, and thus, it's my signature. Problem, Sonic? Yeah, I mean you, Sonic, because you're being beat up, despite your being super. You can't even hit Shadow back, can you? Nope, he's too strong for you. Of course, I'm not Shadow, I'm the Super Emerald fueled fox that's pulling the strings; trust me, the fight would only be a few frames long if I were in it personally. Oh, and here's something for all you guys thinking you can win Last Post Wins 3.0; trust me, I'll be around a long while after the sun has already consumed the Earth while I sit out with the forum servers on Titan. Yes, I mean Titan... that comparatively little moon orbiting Saturn. It's a nice little place in a version of our solar system where the sun is a lot bigger. I mean, Mars will last longer than your precious Earth, but by then, it'll be one hot planet... and I figure Saturn's moon will be about the right temperate for a super-powered warlord. Oh, and trust me, I packed a lot of rings, and I mean a lot. Trillions, in fact, so I'll never run out of rings to power my super form. Besides, if I start to run out, I can just chaos control more rings into my reach. It's quite easy, really. You should try it. Granted, you'll never have the 7 Super Emeralds that I have in my possession, nor the Master Emerald that I've got hidden away somewhere... absorbed into my body thanks to Sonic logic, but whatever. I win. Again. I'm not kidding, either. Just check Last Post Wins, and if the last post isn't mine, it soon will be. Very, very soon. You can count on it. Seriously. By the way, if you're wondering, there's a really great Super Tails sprite sheet out there... somewhere... by some guy named shadow_91. These sprites are really great. Like, really good. Quality. Just like what I like to see in a sprite sheet. Also, credit to Joe T.E., his Sonic Battle style Super Sonic sprites have a great palette for a Super Sonic being beat up by Super Shadow, who's palette is from a Super Shadow sheet of unknown origin, but it turns out they were "borrowed" from a better sheet made by a certain Domenico. Oh, and the gif is actually a custom made super version of a similar gif, of which there are only 3 or 4 copies to be found by Google, and even then, evidently of an unknown source. Yep, it's one of those things. Stuff people have made, spread around, only for it to vanish and you to be the only person who still has a copy, not even knowing where it came from... like, literally at all. Oh, and anyone notice that Shadow's little chaos snap blast thingies are red and blue now? Yeah, I changed it. Problem, fans of purple? Yeah, I know you got a problem with that one, but you can just deal with it. After all, according to all known laws of aviation, there is no way a bee should be able to fly... alright, alright, I'll spare you the entire Bee Movie script, just Google it if you want. By the way, ever wonder how your characters would've ended up if they evolved in another universe? Yeah, that. Think about it. Ok, so you probably didn't bother reading up to here, but whatever, here's a surprise for you guys over at ESD (RP) who were crazy enough to read this: Emperor Nat of the mcfreakin' Terran Empire is gonna be right all along! The universe is gonna go BOOM! *Thumbs up to the insanity*
Oh, now don't tell me you want in on all this! Well, ok. Look this that Egg Pawn hanging outside your window, pointing his laser rifle at you, waiting for my next order. He's doing his part. He helps conquer the weak-minded. He roboticizes the weak-bodied. Heck, he even helps keep the useless people from causing any trouble, but you know what? Join. Find the closest Nataran Empire roboticization center near you and join the ranks, before the ranks find you. Oh, I know, you figure it must be so satisfying to know I basically rule the world now, and you know what? It is, but do you want to know the true definition of satisfaction? Well, let me tell you a little story. One day, you see a brand new event. They're giving out boxes that give old event stuff. Your dilithium is plentiful. You buy a whole lot of Phoenix packs on your main, and open them all. You get one epic token. Then, you decide, that since you have all the Breen ships and don't give a damn about the others, you exchange it for an ultra rare, and grab yourself a Jem'Hadar Attack Ship and for the hell of it, a Voth Bulwark. You open both, leaving the Bulwark in your vast masses of starships as you jump into the bugship and deck it out, deck by deck, into the most awesome Jem'Hadar ship you can. You fly it. You enjoy it. Eventually, you get bored and leave, leaving the old Bulwark never flown... until later. Your main is long complete. Your new alt main, based off some character you pulled out of nothing just to explain away some starship being in service without the command of your dear admiral, is also complete. Mostly. Their reps and doffs are hard at work, getting you stuff. You realize the potential, and head back for your dear admiral, pull the most Voth themed build you can out of thin air, and suit up in your giant ship in the shape of you know what. You head out... and cause all sorts of havoc. Enemies scream out your name as their very life is drained away by your swarms of Aceton Assimilators. They complain to the devs of your OPness when you revive yourself from death every time you die. Do you show any form of mercy? No. After all, this isn't the United Federation of Planets, this is mother frakkin' Starfleet, where you explore strange new worlds and kick butt never kicked before. Oh, and you realize that I just wrote another speech rivaling your own signature. Cool. Oh, wait, that's just the original draft, it is part of my signature now. Oh, and yes, I am aware that I have become a Canadian Regent; one day, sooner than you'd expect, we'll suddenly decide to take over the world and declare an "alliance", and I shall become it's Regent. You know, like the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance in the mirror universe of our beloved Star Trek. Oh, who'll we be taking over with? I dunno, maybe [REDACTED], or maybe aliens from outer space. Guess you'll have to wait and find out, won't we? Until then, don't ask too many questions, or else my Breen allies on Titania might pick up on your -- [REDACTED BY BREEN CONFEDERACY FOR REASONS] Also, psst... keep an eye out for flying Tribbles! Also walls. Big, great walls, separating entire continents apart. Walls patrolled by Tribbles. Flying Tribbles. Flying Nukara Tribbles. Don't worry, it's not like they were on Venus with a herd of Tholians or anything, they just like the extreme heat and brutal weather like acid rain and hurricane force winds as the norm. Oh, and definitely keep your eye out on any two-tailed foxes, because if they ain't glowing, they're definitely an imposter. Possibly an Undine, we caught one of those once in my place once. Oh, and if you find a two-tailed fox that doesn't like the cold... most certainly ask him to say sorry. If he refuses, DESTROY HIM WITH A DOOMSDAY MACHINE, BECAUSE THERE'S NOTHING ELSE THAT WOULD BE ENOUGH AGAINST SUCH AN OVERPOWERED IMPOSTER!
tr;dr, I am winning last post wins 3.0. Thank you for your time.
Also where was it said that the Dreadnaught-class was section 31 project (and more importantly who said it), it wouldn't be that odd that Starfleet would have top secret projects known only to the top brass (you know the same top brass that was killed with exception of Adm. Marcus), for all we know the Dreadnaught-class was starfleet response to the Narada and Marcus and section 31 made use of that project for their own ends.
It is made clear that Khan helped in the Dreadnought class's design. Sure, he was given the alias of John Harrison, but one thing is clear; the Vengeance wasn't just designed and built by Starfleet only for Section 31 to take it for themselves. They had a hand in it's creation.
Also, the top brass wasn't all killed, the meeting of various admirals and captains that got attacked by Khan were the senior commanders of the local sector, not just, you know, the admiralty itself.
Though in all fairness, this is Starfleet we're talking about, the same organization where the Enterprise has managed to be the only Starfleet vessel in the Sol System in peacetime at least twice.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
The way I understood it is that Section 31 is an un-official organisation that uses a loophole in the federation charter to appear "official" but they have no oversight or official authority but thanks to that loophole no-one can openly confront them and I also suspect that those who'd try to close said loophole would meet with accidents.
In essence Section 31 is pro-UFP terrorist organization that cannot be officially disbanded due a legal loophole but they aren't official agents of the UFP goverment either or at least they're not that because they're members of section 31 and just because some members of section 31 are members of Starfleet or civilian goverment of the Federation it doesn't mean section 31 is an official federation agency.
That wouldn't work. It's either specifically mentioned in the charter and exists or isn't and dosn't. They're officially part of Starfleet and specifically Starfleet Intelligence. There's no loophole there, the Charter can be checked by anybody I'd imagine.
why do you think the organization "section 31" is specifically mentioned in the Federation charter, rather then section 31 of the federation charter having some vague (presumebly intentionally so seeing as S31 predates the UFP) wording that terrorist organization of the same name uses as a cover to remain in a legally/officially grey area.
When it comes to the official status of Section 31 members of said organization are probably the worst source possible, a much better idea of what real legal status of section 31 can be gotten from how Starfleet officers or Federation authorities react to them which is essentially arrest if their involvement can be proven without a shadow of a dout, that doesn't sound like section 31 is officially sanctioned does it?
Because to see it the way you do requires mental gymnastics of a very bendy sort. You might have been able to claim it from DS9 alone but if you think a bunch of terrorists bluffed Starfleet into giving them a space station and all the funding and resources needed to build a ship more powerful than anything else in Starfleet then you're barking up the wrong tree.
Does this Section 31 station you're referring to appear anywhere other than STID, where Starfleet itself was commanded by a member of Section 31 that could have easily pulled some strings and had the station, and other resources, sorta just... disappear, for Section 31's use?
It only appears in ID. It's a drydock building a Galaxy sized ship in the TOS era, that's a hell of a lot of resources, far too many to just go missing. Far too many technicians and engineers to keep quite and so on.
Also where was it said that the Dreadnaught-class was section 31 project (and more importantly who said it), it wouldn't be that odd that Starfleet would have top secret projects known only to the top brass (you know the same top brass that was killed with exception of Adm. Marcus), for all we know the Dreadnaught-class was starfleet response to the Narada and Marcus and section 31 made use of that project for their own ends.
The context of the film shows it's Marcus' baby (Harrison's only there for the weapons or something? Like an Earth-bound 21st century human would have a better idea about spaceships than the head of Starfleet right!?) and I believe it's mentioned in dialogue, but as I say, I don't have my copy of the film. There's also a model on Marcus' desk.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Also where was it said that the Dreadnaught-class was section 31 project (and more importantly who said it), it wouldn't be that odd that Starfleet would have top secret projects known only to the top brass (you know the same top brass that was killed with exception of Adm. Marcus), for all we know the Dreadnaught-class was starfleet response to the Narada and Marcus and section 31 made use of that project for their own ends.
It is made clear that Khan helped in the Dreadnought class's design. Sure, he was given the alias of John Harrison, but one thing is clear; the Vengeance wasn't just designed and built by Starfleet only for Section 31 to take it for themselves. They had a hand in it's creation.
honestly it wouldn't be that hard for Adm. Marcus to insert a "commander John Harrison"(aka Khan) into a ship Project he was officially in charge of especially since Starfleet was most likely still feeling the after effects from Nero's campaign of terror. So again there doesn't have to be any official Section 31 involvement just section 31 agents infiltrating Starfleet projects. It's not that hard to think of the Dreadnaught class as response to the Narada with adm. Marcus or someone he trusted as project head, so it was always an official Starfleet project but it wasn't officially intended to be used by section 31. I mean Admiral Alexander Marcus is so high up in the Starfleet chain of command that he's the de facto leader of Starfleet after the San Fransisco attack by Khan, so it's not unbeliveble at all that he could have pushed his personal pet project to Starfleet Corps of Engineers after the Narada incident.
As for how Khan could design things better then 23rd century starfleet personal, in addition of Khan being smarter then a regular human thanks to the augments it has been shown in "Space Seed" that he's a very quick learner when he wants to and his real weakness is his arrogance not his lack of intelligence. So Khan could think "outside the box" when it came to Starfleet designs, that's where his value is not being "better" but thinking of things normal starfleet officers might not.
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When it comes to the official status of Section 31 members of said organization are probably the worst source possible, a much better idea of what real legal status of section 31 can be gotten from how Starfleet officers or Federation authorities react to them which is essentially arrest if their involvement can be proven without a shadow of a dout, that doesn't sound like section 31 is officially sanctioned does it?
Because to see it the way you do requires mental gymnastics of a very bendy sort. You might have been able to claim it from DS9 alone but if you think a bunch of terrorists bluffed Starfleet into giving them a space station and all the funding and resources needed to build a ship more powerful than anything else in Starfleet then you're barking up the wrong tree.
I think also that the amount of high ranking Federation officers including Sisko and Ross that have enough even circumstantial evidence to arrest Slone shows it's sanctioned. Plus their bloody starbase.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Does this Section 31 station you're referring to appear anywhere other than STID, where Starfleet itself was commanded by a member of Section 31 that could have easily pulled some strings and had the station, and other resources, sorta just... disappear, for Section 31's use?
Winning.
Oh, now don't tell me you want in on all this! Well, ok. Look this that Egg Pawn hanging outside your window, pointing his laser rifle at you, waiting for my next order. He's doing his part. He helps conquer the weak-minded. He roboticizes the weak-bodied. Heck, he even helps keep the useless people from causing any trouble, but you know what? Join. Find the closest Nataran Empire roboticization center near you and join the ranks, before the ranks find you. Oh, I know, you figure it must be so satisfying to know I basically rule the world now, and you know what? It is, but do you want to know the true definition of satisfaction? Well, let me tell you a little story. One day, you see a brand new event. They're giving out boxes that give old event stuff. Your dilithium is plentiful. You buy a whole lot of Phoenix packs on your main, and open them all. You get one epic token. Then, you decide, that since you have all the Breen ships and don't give a damn about the others, you exchange it for an ultra rare, and grab yourself a Jem'Hadar Attack Ship and for the hell of it, a Voth Bulwark. You open both, leaving the Bulwark in your vast masses of starships as you jump into the bugship and deck it out, deck by deck, into the most awesome Jem'Hadar ship you can. You fly it. You enjoy it. Eventually, you get bored and leave, leaving the old Bulwark never flown... until later. Your main is long complete. Your new alt main, based off some character you pulled out of nothing just to explain away some starship being in service without the command of your dear admiral, is also complete. Mostly. Their reps and doffs are hard at work, getting you stuff. You realize the potential, and head back for your dear admiral, pull the most Voth themed build you can out of thin air, and suit up in your giant ship in the shape of you know what. You head out... and cause all sorts of havoc. Enemies scream out your name as their very life is drained away by your swarms of Aceton Assimilators. They complain to the devs of your OPness when you revive yourself from death every time you die. Do you show any form of mercy? No. After all, this isn't the United Federation of Planets, this is mother frakkin' Starfleet, where you explore strange new worlds and kick butt never kicked before. Oh, and you realize that I just wrote another speech rivaling your own signature. Cool. Oh, wait, that's just the original draft, it is part of my signature now. Oh, and yes, I am aware that I have become a Canadian Regent; one day, sooner than you'd expect, we'll suddenly decide to take over the world and declare an "alliance", and I shall become it's Regent. You know, like the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance in the mirror universe of our beloved Star Trek. Oh, who'll we be taking over with? I dunno, maybe [REDACTED], or maybe aliens from outer space. Guess you'll have to wait and find out, won't we? Until then, don't ask too many questions, or else my Breen allies on Titania might pick up on your -- [REDACTED BY BREEN CONFEDERACY FOR REASONS] Also, psst... keep an eye out for flying Tribbles! Also walls. Big, great walls, separating entire continents apart. Walls patrolled by Tribbles. Flying Tribbles. Flying Nukara Tribbles. Don't worry, it's not like they were on Venus with a herd of Tholians or anything, they just like the extreme heat and brutal weather like acid rain and hurricane force winds as the norm. Oh, and definitely keep your eye out on any two-tailed foxes, because if they ain't glowing, they're definitely an imposter. Possibly an Undine, we caught one of those once in my place once. Oh, and if you find a two-tailed fox that doesn't like the cold... most certainly ask him to say sorry. If he refuses, DESTROY HIM WITH A DOOMSDAY MACHINE, BECAUSE THERE'S NOTHING ELSE THAT WOULD BE ENOUGH AGAINST SUCH AN OVERPOWERED IMPOSTER!
tr;dr, I am winning last post wins 3.0. Thank you for your time.
It is made clear that Khan helped in the Dreadnought class's design. Sure, he was given the alias of John Harrison, but one thing is clear; the Vengeance wasn't just designed and built by Starfleet only for Section 31 to take it for themselves. They had a hand in it's creation.
Also, the top brass wasn't all killed, the meeting of various admirals and captains that got attacked by Khan were the senior commanders of the local sector, not just, you know, the admiralty itself.
Winning.
Oh, now don't tell me you want in on all this! Well, ok. Look this that Egg Pawn hanging outside your window, pointing his laser rifle at you, waiting for my next order. He's doing his part. He helps conquer the weak-minded. He roboticizes the weak-bodied. Heck, he even helps keep the useless people from causing any trouble, but you know what? Join. Find the closest Nataran Empire roboticization center near you and join the ranks, before the ranks find you. Oh, I know, you figure it must be so satisfying to know I basically rule the world now, and you know what? It is, but do you want to know the true definition of satisfaction? Well, let me tell you a little story. One day, you see a brand new event. They're giving out boxes that give old event stuff. Your dilithium is plentiful. You buy a whole lot of Phoenix packs on your main, and open them all. You get one epic token. Then, you decide, that since you have all the Breen ships and don't give a damn about the others, you exchange it for an ultra rare, and grab yourself a Jem'Hadar Attack Ship and for the hell of it, a Voth Bulwark. You open both, leaving the Bulwark in your vast masses of starships as you jump into the bugship and deck it out, deck by deck, into the most awesome Jem'Hadar ship you can. You fly it. You enjoy it. Eventually, you get bored and leave, leaving the old Bulwark never flown... until later. Your main is long complete. Your new alt main, based off some character you pulled out of nothing just to explain away some starship being in service without the command of your dear admiral, is also complete. Mostly. Their reps and doffs are hard at work, getting you stuff. You realize the potential, and head back for your dear admiral, pull the most Voth themed build you can out of thin air, and suit up in your giant ship in the shape of you know what. You head out... and cause all sorts of havoc. Enemies scream out your name as their very life is drained away by your swarms of Aceton Assimilators. They complain to the devs of your OPness when you revive yourself from death every time you die. Do you show any form of mercy? No. After all, this isn't the United Federation of Planets, this is mother frakkin' Starfleet, where you explore strange new worlds and kick butt never kicked before. Oh, and you realize that I just wrote another speech rivaling your own signature. Cool. Oh, wait, that's just the original draft, it is part of my signature now. Oh, and yes, I am aware that I have become a Canadian Regent; one day, sooner than you'd expect, we'll suddenly decide to take over the world and declare an "alliance", and I shall become it's Regent. You know, like the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance in the mirror universe of our beloved Star Trek. Oh, who'll we be taking over with? I dunno, maybe [REDACTED], or maybe aliens from outer space. Guess you'll have to wait and find out, won't we? Until then, don't ask too many questions, or else my Breen allies on Titania might pick up on your -- [REDACTED BY BREEN CONFEDERACY FOR REASONS] Also, psst... keep an eye out for flying Tribbles! Also walls. Big, great walls, separating entire continents apart. Walls patrolled by Tribbles. Flying Tribbles. Flying Nukara Tribbles. Don't worry, it's not like they were on Venus with a herd of Tholians or anything, they just like the extreme heat and brutal weather like acid rain and hurricane force winds as the norm. Oh, and definitely keep your eye out on any two-tailed foxes, because if they ain't glowing, they're definitely an imposter. Possibly an Undine, we caught one of those once in my place once. Oh, and if you find a two-tailed fox that doesn't like the cold... most certainly ask him to say sorry. If he refuses, DESTROY HIM WITH A DOOMSDAY MACHINE, BECAUSE THERE'S NOTHING ELSE THAT WOULD BE ENOUGH AGAINST SUCH AN OVERPOWERED IMPOSTER!
tr;dr, I am winning last post wins 3.0. Thank you for your time.
Though in all fairness, this is Starfleet we're talking about, the same organization where the Enterprise has managed to be the only Starfleet vessel in the Sol System in peacetime at least twice.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
It only appears in ID. It's a drydock building a Galaxy sized ship in the TOS era, that's a hell of a lot of resources, far too many to just go missing. Far too many technicians and engineers to keep quite and so on.
The context of the film shows it's Marcus' baby (Harrison's only there for the weapons or something? Like an Earth-bound 21st century human would have a better idea about spaceships than the head of Starfleet right!?) and I believe it's mentioned in dialogue, but as I say, I don't have my copy of the film. There's also a model on Marcus' desk.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
honestly it wouldn't be that hard for Adm. Marcus to insert a "commander John Harrison"(aka Khan) into a ship Project he was officially in charge of especially since Starfleet was most likely still feeling the after effects from Nero's campaign of terror. So again there doesn't have to be any official Section 31 involvement just section 31 agents infiltrating Starfleet projects. It's not that hard to think of the Dreadnaught class as response to the Narada with adm. Marcus or someone he trusted as project head, so it was always an official Starfleet project but it wasn't officially intended to be used by section 31. I mean Admiral Alexander Marcus is so high up in the Starfleet chain of command that he's the de facto leader of Starfleet after the San Fransisco attack by Khan, so it's not unbeliveble at all that he could have pushed his personal pet project to Starfleet Corps of Engineers after the Narada incident.
As for how Khan could design things better then 23rd century starfleet personal, in addition of Khan being smarter then a regular human thanks to the augments it has been shown in "Space Seed" that he's a very quick learner when he wants to and his real weakness is his arrogance not his lack of intelligence. So Khan could think "outside the box" when it came to Starfleet designs, that's where his value is not being "better" but thinking of things normal starfleet officers might not.