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Is it the goal of EVERY Starfleet officer to become a captain?
mhall85
Member Posts: 2,852 Arc User1
in Ten Forward
So, after making an off-hand comment on STO Reddit about the Geordi hype, and thus, spending a good 24 hours defending/explaining said comment to avoid fury and downvotes (the joys of Reddit-ing with Trek fans, LOL)... I do think this is an interesting question.
It is, most certainly, a trope of this IP. It's due in large part to the head-of-the-ship-as-leading-man mentality of the 60s, but I don't think the franchise has really evolved past this. With TNG, the Kirk archetype was split between Riker and Picard, with Picard staying on the ship more often... and this worked to some degree, but thanks to Patrick Stewart's inarguable acting chops, the captain still demanded most of the attention. When Ben Sisko appears in DS9, we see a commander placed in charge of an outpost... but, then that commander got a ship, and it quickly became apparent that the commander "needed" to be a captain. I think the producers of DSC wanted to move away from the captain-as-focal-point model, but I doubt Burnham will stay out of the captain's chair forever (and I think many fans agree).
So, I pose the question: is it the goal of every Starfleet officer to become a captain, especially captain of a ship? Are you a "failed officer" if you DON'T reach this point?
For me, I think the answer is an emphatic "no," and I have examplesI would bring up in follow-up posts... but, I'm curious as to everyone's thoughts!
It is, most certainly, a trope of this IP. It's due in large part to the head-of-the-ship-as-leading-man mentality of the 60s, but I don't think the franchise has really evolved past this. With TNG, the Kirk archetype was split between Riker and Picard, with Picard staying on the ship more often... and this worked to some degree, but thanks to Patrick Stewart's inarguable acting chops, the captain still demanded most of the attention. When Ben Sisko appears in DS9, we see a commander placed in charge of an outpost... but, then that commander got a ship, and it quickly became apparent that the commander "needed" to be a captain. I think the producers of DSC wanted to move away from the captain-as-focal-point model, but I doubt Burnham will stay out of the captain's chair forever (and I think many fans agree).
So, I pose the question: is it the goal of every Starfleet officer to become a captain, especially captain of a ship? Are you a "failed officer" if you DON'T reach this point?
For me, I think the answer is an emphatic "no," and I have examplesI would bring up in follow-up posts... but, I'm curious as to everyone's thoughts!
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And every officer becoming a captain eventually, unless they die in a [insert stupid on-screen death occasion here]... yeah, right. How many people serving in the army reach senior officer ranks in modern military? Doubt it would be much different in Star Trek's universe.
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Winning.
Oh, now don't tell me you want in on all this! Well, ok. Look this that Egg Pawn hanging outside your window, pointing his laser rifle at you, waiting for my next order. He's doing his part. He helps conquer the weak-minded. He roboticizes the weak-bodied. Heck, he even helps keep the useless people from causing any trouble, but you know what? Join. Find the closest Nataran Empire roboticization center near you and join the ranks, before the ranks find you. Oh, I know, you figure it must be so satisfying to know I basically rule the world now, and you know what? It is, but do you want to know the true definition of satisfaction? Well, let me tell you a little story. One day, you see a brand new event. They're giving out boxes that give old event stuff. Your dilithium is plentiful. You buy a whole lot of Phoenix packs on your main, and open them all. You get one epic token. Then, you decide, that since you have all the Breen ships and don't give a damn about the others, you exchange it for an ultra rare, and grab yourself a Jem'Hadar Attack Ship and for the hell of it, a Voth Bulwark. You open both, leaving the Bulwark in your vast masses of starships as you jump into the bugship and deck it out, deck by deck, into the most awesome Jem'Hadar ship you can. You fly it. You enjoy it. Eventually, you get bored and leave, leaving the old Bulwark never flown... until later. Your main is long complete. Your new alt main, based off some character you pulled out of nothing just to explain away some starship being in service without the command of your dear admiral, is also complete. Mostly. Their reps and doffs are hard at work, getting you stuff. You realize the potential, and head back for your dear admiral, pull the most Voth themed build you can out of thin air, and suit up in your giant ship in the shape of you know what. You head out... and cause all sorts of havoc. Enemies scream out your name as their very life is drained away by your swarms of Aceton Assimilators. They complain to the devs of your OPness when you revive yourself from death every time you die. Do you show any form of mercy? No. After all, this isn't the United Federation of Planets, this is mother frakkin' Starfleet, where you explore strange new worlds and kick butt never kicked before. Oh, and you realize that I just wrote another speech rivaling your own signature. Cool. Oh, wait, that's just the original draft, it is part of my signature now. Oh, and yes, I am aware that I have become a Canadian Regent; one day, sooner than you'd expect, we'll suddenly decide to take over the world and declare an "alliance", and I shall become it's Regent. You know, like the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance in the mirror universe of our beloved Star Trek. Oh, who'll we be taking over with? I dunno, maybe [REDACTED], or maybe aliens from outer space. Guess you'll have to wait and find out, won't we? Until then, don't ask too many questions, or else my Breen allies on Titania might pick up on your -- [REDACTED BY BREEN CONFEDERACY FOR REASONS] Also, psst... keep an eye out for flying Tribbles! Also walls. Big, great walls, separating entire continents apart. Walls patrolled by Tribbles. Flying Tribbles. Flying Nukara Tribbles. Don't worry, it's not like they were on Venus with a herd of Tholians or anything, they just like the extreme heat and brutal weather like acid rain and hurricane force winds as the norm. Oh, and definitely keep your eye out on any two-tailed foxes, because if they ain't glowing, they're definitely an imposter. Possibly an Undine, we caught one of those once in my place once. Oh, and if you find a two-tailed fox that doesn't like the cold... most certainly ask him to say sorry. If he refuses, DESTROY HIM WITH A DOOMSDAY MACHINE, BECAUSE THERE'S NOTHING ELSE THAT WOULD BE ENOUGH AGAINST SUCH AN OVERPOWERED IMPOSTER!
tr;dr, I am winning last post wins 3.0. Thank you for your time.
Just as in real life some people join out of a sense of duty or to achieve some secondary goal, but lack the ambition or commitment to advance beyond that.
Yes. This is the one thing I think some Trek fans overlook: leadership.
Oh, sure, almost ALL Trek fans get to see a leader (in the form of their favorite captain) succeed... but that is mainly because of the writing of the story. Our heroes succeed because their writers allow them to succeed. Sink those notions into reality, and I think the view changes dramatically. To be blunt: not everyone is cut out to be a leader. Further, a leader is more than a Type-A personality who is brash and daring.
You bring up Riker, and that was one of the characters I was thinking about while considering this. He was supposed to be very "Kirk-like," by design... even down to the middle initial, LOL. Although he seemed to excel as a First Officer, he turned down command offers three times before it was thrust onto him in "Best Of Both Worlds." Was he a "bad officer" for declining those command opportunities? No, I don't think so... especially considering the experience he gained through that ordeal. Was he a "bad officer" for not accepting the next command AFTER that, seemingly having nothing left to prove? That is a far more interesting question, I think, and a bit more difficult to answer. After all, his success against the Borg was more luck than anything else (thanks to the writing), and he had a few times after that where his command descisions were less than successful (again, due to writing). Eventually, of course, he accepts promotion and fulfills the hopes of those that trained and recommended him for promotion.
Still, even if it was due to the writing of the character, I think Riker is the kind of Starfleet officer who IS supposed to be a captain... so, for that officer to avoid or stagnate towards that goal could be seen as a waste.
Yes, many pointed that out to me, LOL.
Part of my issue with this trope is that STO falls into it far too often... want a character in the game? Well, we GOTTA make them a captain!
No, this isn't always the case. Yes, sometimes it's based on canonical information. Still, it doesn't work for me... at least for some characters. In terms of Geordi? I actually don't have a huge issue with it, partially due to seeing him as a captain in that VOY episode (even though it was an alternate timeline). More so than that, however, Geordi was a CHIEF engineer... and we did see him, at times, be a good manager of people. This is vital to good leadership. Personally, I liked the idea of Geordi being a civilian research engineer designing stuff like the Jellyfish-class, which is STO canon. The fact he was a "victim" of the "seldom-used reserve activation clause" was... a cute reference, but kinda cheap IMO.
But, whatever, he's not really my beef (and certainly, I'm not UPSET Levar Burton is joining the game's VO roster... which I think many on Reddit interpreted my comments as such a slight).
Didn't Riker specifically mention that he refused previous command offers, because he was waiting to command the Enterprise? Basically, he was waiting for Picard to either retire or promote up, so that he could then step up and take command of the Enterprise.
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And was told that he was wrecking his own career and getting in the way of other promising officers who could learn from Picard (and in the first Star Trek: Titan novel, was told to either take the position or he wouldn't get another offer). See, this is the thing Riker didn't get: it's not about him. As long as he's wearing the uniform, the needs of Starfleet and the Federation come first, or are supposed to. This is also one of the reasons for the US military having the "up or out" policy whereby if you miss 'x' number of promotion windows (I think it's three), you'll usually be discharged.
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On the flipside, Ezri Dax has barely got her bearings, and she's a psychologist. Maybe one day she becomes a ranked captain within her career track but I don't see her commanding a ship. (The hell with Captain Super-Dax of USS Aventine, that storyline was Mary Sue-fic garbage.)
As for Sisko's promotion? He was 37 when the series started, 40 when he was promoted. That's not an unrealistic age (my father retired at commander rank at age 42), and it could've easily just been "his turn" in the promotion list. That doesn't raise any hackles for me.
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#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
I don't know how much the Titan series does or would play into STO, but I was specifically addressing the issue regarding why he passed up earlier promotion/command opportunities.
Well, according to STO, Ezri Dax does command the Aventine. And apparently the Dax symbiote will command the Enterprise J at some future point as well.
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Riker's demotion back to being second command after Best of Both Worlds is utterly baffling from an in-story perspective. Out of story it was simply to uphold the status quo for marketing reasons. An explanation would have been really beneficial for explaining why somebody who was so focused on his career suddenly took a step back and never got another command offer for many years.
If it had been up to me I would have used it as a small b-story to the BoBW follow up episode "Family". While Picard is visiting his family and working through his personal demons, Captain Riker could have been at Starfleet command fighting to save Picard's career with the Admiralty feeling Picard was no longer fit for duty. Riker would offer to take a demotion and be Picard's backup in case he ever cracked under pressure. The whole thing would be kept a secret so that Picard could retain command with dignity, a sacrifice made for family.
Hm, for some reason that doesn't sound quite right. I'm pretty sure I remember that when the first met Picard asked Riker why he has already turned down a command to be first officer of the Enterprise. Riker responded that it was because he though being on the flagship would give him better options the next time he got a command offer. Riker wanted to be Captain, but he wanted a glamorous assignment over a early one.
I think that was in Season 2. Riker was offered Command of the U.S.S. Ares, and Picard asked why he was hesitant (and inferred Riker was reluctant to leave his position on the Flagship - an inferrence Riker denied. Also, I feel the need to point out that was hardly Riker's only concern. I recall a pretty touching scene between him and Deanna.
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That idea is almost too good... such a story would also explain why Riker then took command of the Titan later, since it'd become apparent by then that Picard was pretty much unbreakable, or would at least eventually come to see reason...
Winning.
Oh, now don't tell me you want in on all this! Well, ok. Look this that Egg Pawn hanging outside your window, pointing his laser rifle at you, waiting for my next order. He's doing his part. He helps conquer the weak-minded. He roboticizes the weak-bodied. Heck, he even helps keep the useless people from causing any trouble, but you know what? Join. Find the closest Nataran Empire roboticization center near you and join the ranks, before the ranks find you. Oh, I know, you figure it must be so satisfying to know I basically rule the world now, and you know what? It is, but do you want to know the true definition of satisfaction? Well, let me tell you a little story. One day, you see a brand new event. They're giving out boxes that give old event stuff. Your dilithium is plentiful. You buy a whole lot of Phoenix packs on your main, and open them all. You get one epic token. Then, you decide, that since you have all the Breen ships and don't give a damn about the others, you exchange it for an ultra rare, and grab yourself a Jem'Hadar Attack Ship and for the hell of it, a Voth Bulwark. You open both, leaving the Bulwark in your vast masses of starships as you jump into the bugship and deck it out, deck by deck, into the most awesome Jem'Hadar ship you can. You fly it. You enjoy it. Eventually, you get bored and leave, leaving the old Bulwark never flown... until later. Your main is long complete. Your new alt main, based off some character you pulled out of nothing just to explain away some starship being in service without the command of your dear admiral, is also complete. Mostly. Their reps and doffs are hard at work, getting you stuff. You realize the potential, and head back for your dear admiral, pull the most Voth themed build you can out of thin air, and suit up in your giant ship in the shape of you know what. You head out... and cause all sorts of havoc. Enemies scream out your name as their very life is drained away by your swarms of Aceton Assimilators. They complain to the devs of your OPness when you revive yourself from death every time you die. Do you show any form of mercy? No. After all, this isn't the United Federation of Planets, this is mother frakkin' Starfleet, where you explore strange new worlds and kick butt never kicked before. Oh, and you realize that I just wrote another speech rivaling your own signature. Cool. Oh, wait, that's just the original draft, it is part of my signature now. Oh, and yes, I am aware that I have become a Canadian Regent; one day, sooner than you'd expect, we'll suddenly decide to take over the world and declare an "alliance", and I shall become it's Regent. You know, like the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance in the mirror universe of our beloved Star Trek. Oh, who'll we be taking over with? I dunno, maybe [REDACTED], or maybe aliens from outer space. Guess you'll have to wait and find out, won't we? Until then, don't ask too many questions, or else my Breen allies on Titania might pick up on your -- [REDACTED BY BREEN CONFEDERACY FOR REASONS] Also, psst... keep an eye out for flying Tribbles! Also walls. Big, great walls, separating entire continents apart. Walls patrolled by Tribbles. Flying Tribbles. Flying Nukara Tribbles. Don't worry, it's not like they were on Venus with a herd of Tholians or anything, they just like the extreme heat and brutal weather like acid rain and hurricane force winds as the norm. Oh, and definitely keep your eye out on any two-tailed foxes, because if they ain't glowing, they're definitely an imposter. Possibly an Undine, we caught one of those once in my place once. Oh, and if you find a two-tailed fox that doesn't like the cold... most certainly ask him to say sorry. If he refuses, DESTROY HIM WITH A DOOMSDAY MACHINE, BECAUSE THERE'S NOTHING ELSE THAT WOULD BE ENOUGH AGAINST SUCH AN OVERPOWERED IMPOSTER!
tr;dr, I am winning last post wins 3.0. Thank you for your time.
As previously stated, I deeply dislike that entire storyline. They randomly had her decide she wasn't important enough, broke her up with Bashir (granted, I did feel Bashir had more chemistry with Garak than the Nth Dax all along
... Oh, son of a hazmot, Ezri Dax is a STO player character.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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He was also offered the Melbourne but declined ironically saving his life unknowingly. (Both Melbournes were destroyed)
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
I agree, and I like that idea. I've always thought for a while, now, that if TNG were made today, the post-BOBW Enterprise would have been a much bigger story thread... we would have actually seen Picard's struggles in recovery, Riker & Shelby maintaining the Enterprise in the interim, and Picard's reintegration into command would have been... well, probably like you pointed out. I give the writers credit, though... for the time period, they threaded the Locutus experience into the fabric of the show FAR more than was needed at the time. That cold-blooded scene with Admiral Satti in "The Drumhead" was great drama. It probably would have been that for a good half-season, in 2017.
But, yes, back to Riker... it is a bit odd that he accepted demotion without issue. And, as I said earlier, I don't think the writers did him service at times, when he got center-seat experience post-BOBW. It's though to comment, now in hindsight, but had Riker never accepted promotion... then yeah, he would have probably been considered a bit of a failure.
Great points here.
The whole position-vs-rank difference is something I really didn't consider in my initial Reddit comment about Geordi, admittedly. I think this is likely why Scotty remained a captain. He was probably given the rank because, at the time, the position of chief engineer on the Excelsior was a big deal... more like a research project, than just another ship posting. Judging by his disdain for the move & ship, though, I don't think he particularly sought the promotion. He followed orders, and probably earned it through his performance, but he seems like the kind of officer that would just be happy with being an engineer. And I don't buy that lame idea from the SCE books, that Scotty is a captain of a ship (which I think S.TO also accepts).
Frankly, now that we've established this distinction, I wish there would be more examples of captain-level specialists, not just captains-as-heads-of-ships.
The books, in general, do bad things with characters, IMO. The Dax thing also bothers me, and the way they've handled Sisko outright pisses me off. They may have a grand arc planned for him, but still, I think they've betrayed what the ACTUAL writers did to Sisko on DS9. I agree that his initial promotion was not out of nowhere, and probably fitting... but I have always felt that his character arc exceeded the need of Starfleet. Even if he were to return, I felt that was a permanent change... and the books just pushed him back into Starfleet, and gave him a ship. LAME.
But on the flipside, we have the jumped-up cadet in "Valiant" who got field-promoted all the way to O-6 captain by his dying training officer (and if said cadet hadn't been drunk on that "Red Squad" myth, he should've disregarded it as the product of delirium). Not to mention that stupidity in the Kelvin Timeline where Kirk goes all the way from third-year cadet to captain of the Starfleet flagship in one movie, then gets demoted back to commander for lying on an official report, only to then immediately be put back in charge, and then applies for a three-step promotion to vice admiral in the next film.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
My character Tsin'xing
Just because Starfleet shares the names of its ranks with several hundreds of organisations on Earth (including some militaries) it's not one of those organisations, nor does it follow their protocol, it has its own, confusing, contradictory one.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
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'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
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By Star Trek V and VI, the Enterprise-A is fairly dripping with high rank grades for its various department heads.
Keep in mind most of what we on Star Trek, especially the ship-based shows, are bridge officers or department heads - they're already in leadership positions and can be assumed to have some ambition.
Picard in the alternate reality Q gave ("Tapestry") where he took less risks and didn't take charge as much was a mere junior-grade lieutenant, for comparison.
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Regardless, the commanding officer is still referred to as captain, while on board and in command of his ship.
I'm trying to justify a Fleet Admiral being in charge of a single ship's operations. THAT is something I'm struggling with.