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what's better. pen or..
skullblits
Member Posts: 1,273 Arc User
Over with the NX trait??
I'm having my doubts about which one to choose.
I'm having my doubts about which one to choose.
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I mite just do a mixture of them.
Things I want in STO:
1) More character customization options such as more clothing options, letting the toon complexion affect the entire body, not just the head. Also a true RGB color picker applied to all costume and appearance options, which would allow for true appearance customization and homogenous colors instead of "this same exact color looks vastly different on two different pieces."
2) Bridge customization, not bridge packs. Let us pick a general layout and adjust the color palette, console appearance, and chair types, as well as more ready room layout options.
3) Customizable ground weapons, i.e. The aesthetic look of phaser dual pistols but they shoot antiproton bolts. For obvious reasons this would only apply to standard ground weapons.
4) For the love of Q please revamp Plasma Ground Weapons. They look like demented Supersoakers right now.
5) True Vanity Impulse and Deflector effects similar to Vanity Shields.
6) A greater payout for hitting T6 Reputations. Currently it takes more time and resources to get from T5 to T6 than it does to get from nothing to T5. Make that grind really pay out at the end.
7) Mirrorverse Refugee event similar to AoY/Delta/Gamma, complete with new Mirrorverse recruits for all factions.
8) Independent Faction, because yo ho yo ho a pirate's life for me!
Pencils hands down!, they can write in space and underwater...
Pen is 10 armour penetration for shots on that weapon, which is equivalent to a 10 damage resistance debff for that weapon
CritD is 20% extra damage per crit hit
Just about any decent endgame setup will be hitting at least 20% crits, I'd guess 60%+ is doable for a tac with a crit oriented setup. So critd should be worth 4-12%, with 4% being a conservative estimate. Whereas in order for pen to give 4% extra damage the target will have to be debuffed to an extreme degree that you won't generally find in solo or pug play.
Yeah, the pencil will write in space (or rather in zero g on a station/ship) until the graphite dust gets everywhere and shorts out all the electronics.
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With the understanding that your going to be running beams so as to lead to the choice between [Over] or [Pen], then your going to want to understand (and know) a few variables first.
SetA / Category 1 Buffs
This Trait Preferential Targeting adds +100% to the Category 1 Damage category to the overloaded, which also includes things like Mark Value (I to XIV), Tactical Consoles (both Specific and general types), and other passive things.
As such to give a meaningful answer to 'how good is this', you need to know this value. In general, its around 400%-500% for a high end build, maybe even approaching 600% to 700% with 4 or 5 Epic Tactical consoles. Main thing to get from this is this value is normally very very high.
Since the damage buff is in this category, we want to see how a +100% value would effectively improve the damage.
Side note, the equations to do this are fairly simple. Because categories are linear then we know we can use a (1+[Current%]+Δ)/(1+[Current%]) to find the effective modifier.
This would look like:
(1+400%+100%)/(1+400%)
= (1+4+1)/(1+4)
= (6/5)
= 1.2
So these seam like fairly large modifiers, but we then need to consider the proc time of [Over].
Expected Proc times
There is a rather handy, simple equation to find these.
Expected Time for Proc = 1/(((Number of weapons)/(Cycle Time))*(Chance))
For [Over], this would be:
This means that a single weapon would see, on average, one proc in 200.
Expected Time for Proc = 1/(((1)/(5 Seconds))*(1/40)) = 200s
With More weapons, we see a higher expected rate.
This is all just in theory, so actual proc times might be longer, because of this I'm going to add 10s to these expected times when I use them (since stacks don't seam to build under FAW).
Putting it together with [Over] and FAW
So we now want to use an Uptime approximation on these.
((Fractional Up time)(State of PT ON))+((1-(Fractional Up time)(State of PT OFF))
(You can see more here: https://www.reddit.com/r/stobuilds/wiki/math/critical_chance)
Basically, since we know that PT will last only 1s (since that's how long the damage is dealt from BO as a cyclical nature), we can take its uptime as the duration / the expected proc rates, which have been adjusted to 43.33s for 6 weapons, 38.57s for 7 weapons, and 35.00s for 8 weapons. As well, for the purpose of this example, I'm going to be assuming a 500% Cat1 Saturation (this will in reality change from person to person so for best results you should find your own and use it in these equations).
Finally, we must understand that Overloading is a 4.7x Final Damage modifier on the beam which fires the Overloaded shot. This is taken as a multipier of all damage multipliers and other damage categories.
In our case, our two variables will multiply together (Cat1 x Final) for a 5.4802 (which is 4.7*1.166) modifier.
This means we end up with the following:
Comparison With [Pen]
Damage Resistance Rating (A.K.A. DRR) follows a very complex non-linear curve of:
(1/4) + 3(75/(150+(DRR)))^2
So with absolutely no DRR applied to target, [Pen] would be an effective constant multiplier of
((1/4) + 3(75/(150+(0)))^2)/((1/4) + 3(75/(150+(+10)))^2) = 871/784 = 1.0998 Effective Modifier (9.98% increase)
This is rarely the case, and there is normally some other debuffs added into the mix; these additions decrease the effects of [Pen]. For instance, APB is -30 DRR to target. With more APB's stacked on a target, pen becomes less effective
However, if you cannot reliably get [Over] procs, taken to the extreme to be 1/200, for a 1.0224 Effective Modifier (2.24% increase), we can clearly see that we would Prefer [Pen] to [Over].
Final Note
In total, all I can say is these kinda of things are never easy to generalize. I would personally say that [Pen] is to be preferred to [Over] simply because [Pen] is much more reliable and will generate less swing in effective damage output, but [over] still has a fun factor attached to it, so as a Tl;Dr: if you dont care about maximizing potential damage averages take [Pen], if you care more about how it looks and the fun factor of it take [over].
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Always glad to help with things like this!
Of course everything I said is built upon assumptions and pre-conditions and is always susceptible to RNG and in-combat fluctuations
As was I. I also had a momentary flashback to being at school, and being asked if I wanted to become a member of 'the pen fifteen club'
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
I think I can safely say, that all of that, in its entirety, flew right over my head.
Impossible for me.. i would catch it..
> skullblits#4627 wrote: »
>
> Over with the NX trait??
>
> I'm having my doubts about which one to choose.
>
>
>
>
> With the understanding that your going to be running beams so as to lead to the choice between [Over] or [Pen], then your going to want to understand (and know) a few variables first.
>
> SetA / Category 1 Buffs
>
> This Trait Preferential Targeting adds +100% to the Category 1 Damage category to the overloaded, which also includes things like Mark Value (I to XIV), Tactical Consoles (both Specific and general types), and other passive things.
>
> As such to give a meaningful answer to 'how good is this', you need to know this value. In general, its around 400%-500% for a high end build, maybe even approaching 600% to 700% with 4 or 5 Epic Tactical consoles. Main thing to get from this is this value is normally very very high.
>
> Since the damage buff is in this category, we want to see how a +100% value would effectively improve the damage.
>
> * 400% Pre-Cat1: +100% = a 1.200x (or 20.0%) Effective Multiplier
> * 500% Pre-Cat1: +100% = a 1.166x (or 16.6%) Effective Multiplier
> * 600% Pre-Cat1: +100% = a 1.142x (or 14.2%) Effective Multiplier
> * 700% Pre-Cat1: +100% = a 1.125x (or 16.6%) Effective Multiplier
>
>
> Side note, the equations to do this are fairly simple. Because categories are linear then we know we can use a (1+[Current%]+Δ)/(1+[Current%]) to find the effective modifier.
>
> This would look like:
>
> (1+400%+100%)/(1+400%)
> = (1+4+1)/(1+4)
> = (6/5)
> = 1.2
>
> So these seam like fairly large modifiers, but we then need to consider the proc time of [Over].
>
> Expected Proc times
>
> There is a rather handy, simple equation to find these.
>
> Expected Time for Proc = 1/(((Number of weapons)/(Cycle Time))*(Chance))
>
> For [Over], this would be:
>
> * Number of Weapons = The number of Weapons with [Over] on them (Ideally 6,7, or 8)
> * Chance = 2.5% = 0.025 = 1/40
> * Cycle Time = 5 Seconds
>
>
> This means that a single weapon would see, on average, one proc in 200.
>
> Expected Time for Proc = 1/(((1)/(5 Seconds))*(1/40)) = 200s
>
> With More weapons, we see a higher expected rate.
>
> * 6 weapons = 33.33s
> * 7 Weapons = 28.57s
> * 8 Weapons = 25.00s
>
>
> This is all just in theory, so actual proc times might be longer, because of this I'm going to add 10s to these expected times when I use them (since stacks don't seam to build under FAW).
>
> Putting it together with [Over] and FAW
>
> So we now want to use an Uptime approximation on these.
>
> ((Fractional Up time)(State of PT ON))+((1-(Fractional Up time)(State of PT OFF))
>
> (You can see more here: https://www.reddit.com/r/stobuilds/wiki/math/critical_chance)
>
> Basically, since we know that PT will last only 1s (since that's how long the damage is dealt from BO as a cyclical nature), we can take its uptime as the duration / the expected proc rates, which have been adjusted to 43.33s for 6 weapons, 38.57s for 7 weapons, and 35.00s for 8 weapons. As well, for the purpose of this example, I'm going to be assuming a 500% Cat1 Saturation (this will in reality change from person to person so for best results you should find your own and use it in these equations).
>
> Finally, we must understand that Overloading is a 4.7x Final Damage modifier on the beam which fires the Overloaded shot. This is taken as a multipier of all damage multipliers and other damage categories.
>
> In our case, our two variables will multiply together (Cat1 x Final) for a 5.4802 (which is 4.7*1.166) modifier.
>
> This means we end up with the following:
>
> * 6 Weapons: ((1/43.33)*(5.4802) + ((1-(1/43.33))*(1)) = 1.1034 Effective Modifier (10.34% increase)
> * 7 Weapons: ((1/38.57)*(5.4802) + ((1-(1/38.57))*(1)) = 1.1162 Effective Modifier (11.62% increase)
> * 8 Weapons: ((1/35.00)*(5.4802) + ((1-(1/35.00))*(1)) = 1.1280 Effective Modifier (12.80% increase)
>
>
> Comparison With [Pen]
>
> Damage Resistance Rating (A.K.A. DRR) follows a very complex non-linear curve of:
>
> (1/4) + 3(75/(150+(DRR)))^2
>
> So with absolutely no DRR applied to target, [Pen] would be an effective constant multiplier of
>
> ((1/4) + 3(75/(150+(0)))^2)/((1/4) + 3(75/(150+(+10)))^2) = 871/784 = 1.0998 Effective Modifier (9.98% increase)
>
> This is rarely the case, and there is normally some other debuffs added into the mix; these additions decrease the effects of [Pen]. For instance, APB is -30 DRR to target. With more APB's stacked on a target, pen becomes less effective
>
> * 1xAPB : 1.0744 Effective Modifier (7.44% increase)
> * 2xAPB : 1.0567 Effective Modifier (5.67% increase)
> * 3xAPB : 1.0442 Effective Modifier (4.42% increase)
> * 4xAPB : 1.0349 Effective Modifier (3.49% increase)
>
>
> However, if you cannot reliably get [Over] procs, taken to the extreme to be 1/200, for a 1.0224 Effective Modifier (2.24% increase), we can clearly see that we would Prefer [Pen] to [Over].
>
> Final Note
>
> In total, all I can say is these kinda of things are never easy to generalize. I would personally say that [Pen] is to be preferred to [Over] simply because [Pen] is much more reliable and will generate less swing in effective damage output, but [over] still has a fun factor attached to it, so as a Tl;Dr: if you dont care about maximizing potential damage averages take [Pen], if you care more about how it looks and the fun factor of it take [over].
*sits in the corner rocking back and forth*
yike's. thanks for taking the time to post this.
Very well put thanks!