Just wanted to chime in that I get it. I thought I'd end up disliking the guy's point of view, because I tend to look at the complaints as bigotry like most of you. But guy makes a good point. If you're making a big splash about diversity just for the sake of making a splash then it isn't really meaningful. It's like how having lgbt characters isn't bad for Star Trek, but, unless Star Trek is a sci-fi premises upon a dramatization of some sexual revolution, the fact that they are lgbt shouldn't be front and center. Sulu, Scotty, Geordi, Uhura, Spock, Data, that Frenchman with an English accent, Janeway, Worf were not simply just stand ins for their race and gender but remarkable individuals with stories to tell. Their diversity was a part of them but not all that they were. Hopefully, Discovery will handle this gracefully and have a solid story where the diversity doesn't feel like a checklist but a natural part of the universe, but so far CBS seems destined to TRIBBLE it up.
Next thing you know we'll be having black or female captains forced upon us. Social politics!? Not in my Star Trek.
Janeway and Hernandez would like to have a word with you.
Sisko doesn't even know what to think.
Winning.
It's what I do. It's what I just did. It's what I'm about to do again. It's being undisputed emperor of an empire that cannot be disproved as the most powerful intergalactic empire in the entire universe; I always win, and everything I've won will definitely be won again... by me. It's my signature move, and thus, it's my signature. Problem, Sonic? Yeah, I mean you, Sonic, because you're being beat up, despite your being super. You can't even hit Shadow back, can you? Nope, he's too strong for you. Of course, I'm not Shadow, I'm the Super Emerald fueled fox that's pulling the strings; trust me, the fight would only be a few frames long if I were in it personally. Oh, and here's something for all you guys thinking you can win Last Post Wins 3.0; trust me, I'll be around a long while after the sun has already consumed the Earth while I sit out with the forum servers on Titan. Yes, I mean Titan... that comparatively little moon orbiting Saturn. It's a nice little place in a version of our solar system where the sun is a lot bigger. I mean, Mars will last longer than your precious Earth, but by then, it'll be one hot planet... and I figure Saturn's moon will be about the right temperate for a super-powered warlord. Oh, and trust me, I packed a lot of rings, and I mean a lot. Trillions, in fact, so I'll never run out of rings to power my super form. Besides, if I start to run out, I can just chaos control more rings into my reach. It's quite easy, really. You should try it. Granted, you'll never have the 7 Super Emeralds that I have in my possession, nor the Master Emerald that I've got hidden away somewhere... absorbed into my body thanks to Sonic logic, but whatever. I win. Again. I'm not kidding, either. Just check Last Post Wins, and if the last post isn't mine, it soon will be. Very, very soon. You can count on it. Seriously. By the way, if you're wondering, there's a really great Super Tails sprite sheet out there... somewhere... by some guy named shadow_91. These sprites are really great. Like, really good. Quality. Just like what I like to see in a sprite sheet. Also, credit to Joe T.E., his Sonic Battle style Super Sonic sprites have a great palette for a Super Sonic being beat up by Super Shadow, who's palette is from a Super Shadow sheet of unknown origin, but it turns out they were "borrowed" from a better sheet made by a certain Domenico. Oh, and the gif is actually a custom made super version of a similar gif, of which there are only 3 or 4 copies to be found by Google, and even then, evidently of an unknown source. Yep, it's one of those things. Stuff people have made, spread around, only for it to vanish and you to be the only person who still has a copy, not even knowing where it came from... like, literally at all. Oh, and anyone notice that Shadow's little chaos snap blast thingies are red and blue now? Yeah, I changed it. Problem, fans of purple? Yeah, I know you got a problem with that one, but you can just deal with it. After all, according to all known laws of aviation, there is no way a bee should be able to fly... alright, alright, I'll spare you the entire Bee Movie script, just Google it if you want. By the way, ever wonder how your characters would've ended up if they evolved in another universe? Yeah, that. Think about it. Ok, so you probably didn't bother reading up to here, but whatever, here's a surprise for you guys over at ESD (RP) who were crazy enough to read this: Emperor Nat of the mcfreakin' Terran Empire is gonna be right all along! The universe is gonna go BOOM! *Thumbs up to the insanity*
Oh, now don't tell me you want in on all this! Well, ok. Look this that Egg Pawn hanging outside your window, pointing his laser rifle at you, waiting for my next order. He's doing his part. He helps conquer the weak-minded. He roboticizes the weak-bodied. Heck, he even helps keep the useless people from causing any trouble, but you know what? Join. Find the closest Nataran Empire roboticization center near you and join the ranks, before the ranks find you. Oh, I know, you figure it must be so satisfying to know I basically rule the world now, and you know what? It is, but do you want to know the true definition of satisfaction? Well, let me tell you a little story. One day, you see a brand new event. They're giving out boxes that give old event stuff. Your dilithium is plentiful. You buy a whole lot of Phoenix packs on your main, and open them all. You get one epic token. Then, you decide, that since you have all the Breen ships and don't give a damn about the others, you exchange it for an ultra rare, and grab yourself a Jem'Hadar Attack Ship and for the hell of it, a Voth Bulwark. You open both, leaving the Bulwark in your vast masses of starships as you jump into the bugship and deck it out, deck by deck, into the most awesome Jem'Hadar ship you can. You fly it. You enjoy it. Eventually, you get bored and leave, leaving the old Bulwark never flown... until later. Your main is long complete. Your new alt main, based off some character you pulled out of nothing just to explain away some starship being in service without the command of your dear admiral, is also complete. Mostly. Their reps and doffs are hard at work, getting you stuff. You realize the potential, and head back for your dear admiral, pull the most Voth themed build you can out of thin air, and suit up in your giant ship in the shape of you know what. You head out... and cause all sorts of havoc. Enemies scream out your name as their very life is drained away by your swarms of Aceton Assimilators. They complain to the devs of your OPness when you revive yourself from death every time you die. Do you show any form of mercy? No. After all, this isn't the United Federation of Planets, this is mother frakkin' Starfleet, where you explore strange new worlds and kick butt never kicked before. Oh, and you realize that I just wrote another speech rivaling your own signature. Cool. Oh, wait, that's just the original draft, it is part of my signature now. Oh, and yes, I am aware that I have become a Canadian Regent; one day, sooner than you'd expect, we'll suddenly decide to take over the world and declare an "alliance", and I shall become it's Regent. You know, like the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance in the mirror universe of our beloved Star Trek. Oh, who'll we be taking over with? I dunno, maybe [REDACTED], or maybe aliens from outer space. Guess you'll have to wait and find out, won't we? Until then, don't ask too many questions, or else my Breen allies on Titania might pick up on your -- [REDACTED BY BREEN CONFEDERACY FOR REASONS] Also, psst... keep an eye out for flying Tribbles! Also walls. Big, great walls, separating entire continents apart. Walls patrolled by Tribbles. Flying Tribbles. Flying Nukara Tribbles. Don't worry, it's not like they were on Venus with a herd of Tholians or anything, they just like the extreme heat and brutal weather like acid rain and hurricane force winds as the norm. Oh, and definitely keep your eye out on any two-tailed foxes, because if they ain't glowing, they're definitely an imposter. Possibly an Undine, we caught one of those once in my place once. Oh, and if you find a two-tailed fox that doesn't like the cold... most certainly ask him to say sorry. If he refuses, DESTROY HIM WITH A DOOMSDAY MACHINE, BECAUSE THERE'S NOTHING ELSE THAT WOULD BE ENOUGH AGAINST SUCH AN OVERPOWERED IMPOSTER!
tr;dr, I am winning last post wins 3.0. Thank you for your time.
when i look at TRIBBLE and stack it against TOS,TNG,DS9,VOY and ENT
it just doesnt hold a candle to them its like CBS is just taking a mighty duece on the IP of star trek
they dont care for quality rather they are trying to pander to a minority audience for more rating which means more cash
its not about some clandestine homosexual or minority agenda, its about trying to pander to milenials for more ratings.
Next thing you know we'll be having black or female captains forced upon us. Social politics!? Not in my Star Trek.
Janeway and Hernandez would like to have a word with you.
Sisko doesn't even know what to think.
I was being ever so slightly sarcastic.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Silver, Dorko and Patrick pretty much summed up the issue. It's not a matter of what they're doing (or rather, what they say/think they're doing), it's how and why they're doing it.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
Well, there's several points to consider there, which I'll address in turn:
- Yes, it's a criticism of the marketing strategy.
If so, okay, but I feel if that'd be all the waves being made are really unjustified. In what way does the marketing strategy influence the show's content? All the whining is made before even a single episode has been aired.
- Yes, inclusion is definitely important, but using it as a selling point, at the expense of other equally interesting things, is then bad strategy. For example, from what we see in the trailer, Number One would appear to be half-Vulcan. That wasn't something they felt the need to mention in early press releases, when they said that they would be having a **** officer, although it is still definitely a point of interest and informative about the other character.
The in-universe species of a chracter is also only important if you go for planet of the hats stories. Just like people claim that it shouldn't matter what ethnicity or sexuality a character is, that shouldn't matter either way. Or if it does, it is to adress RL racial issues. Go figure. I cannot speak for Fuller or an associated staff and wether announcing a homosexual character or a lead of colour does anything to increase their sales - but if that's the reason, so what. I know that it is very important for people to get popular culture inclusion and recognition, because that is the stuff that helps making things appear as "normal". If you grow up, struggle with what you are maybe even experience hate because of what you are, seeing someone like this taking the stage in popular culture, Star Trek of all things, is a huge deal. We live in a time where announcing a TRIBBLE character or actor in a show is possible to begin with - in Takei's time, being TRIBBLE meant for an actor to disappear and the shows to be canned. Luckily, that's not the case any more. So if the problem is only feeling that the show is advertised to a group not including you, so what - what is the problem? Does it in any way influence the experience you have when watching it?
- The harm done, is not really harm as such, but a case of to those not in the LGBT community, that kind of announcement can have several connotations. An example, is that one of the complaints most often levelled at the work of Russell T Davies, is his frequent references to homosexuality in his work. Many felt that it was 'pushing an agenda' (their words, not mine) So on that regard, the mention of a **** character, when it's not really relevant to the plot, comes across as unnecessarily drawing attention to the subject. Another example is that the release mentioning having a **** character, but not of a half-Vulcan character, or perhaps more information about Captain Lorca, could appear 'agenda pushing' due to the absence of that other usefull information. Just as the Beyond release about Sulu being **** was clumsy. Had they instead mentioned something about meeting Sulu's daughter, that would still generate the interest as to who is the other parent, and then when we get to the airlock scene, it would be an interesting twist which could have been worked out as being a refeence to George Takei. But doing what they did, as you said, it was clumsy.
What the squeal is "pushing an agenda" supposed to mean in the first place? Yes, these are not your words but I still want to know. What is "pushing an agenda" in having minorities of whatever group in a cast of a show? The "agenda" that popular culture should include minorities? Yes, we can't have that, can we. What a dire political, evil plan. It was better when we just didn't acknowledge then, they didn't bother us and they had to deal with their issues on their own. I am sorry, but no matter what anyone claims about their own views, if you jump into the same boat as people complaining about "social agendas" and "enforcement" of anything you are in bad company and should really check your stance. The issue with Sulu as a way to honour Takei is another matter entirely, especially because it indeed undersells Takei's live work and wasn't done including him - but even so I fail to see anything harmful being done by announcing it. If it increases clicks for them, fine I don't care. But I value the signal this can send, regardless of the original intentions of the anouncer. The same reason why Levar Burton praises DSC for a captain of colour, because the current real life context is important and it sends a messge to people that are in dire need of getting positive signals by a society they don't know is accepting of them int his day and age.
So to sum it up, it's bad marketing, because it doesn't take into consideration how it will be perscieved by all the audience. It focusses on a target demographic, and forgets everyone else. It's "Rat's head and ox's neck" or, "don't lose sight of the forest for the trees". I hope that explains better for you.
Do you really reason this by complaining they didn't take into account how all perceived this kind of announcement? You say something happened that made you feel left out? Do you want to tell me more about your feelings? The plea for true inclusion and diversity doesn't require special intonation on minorities and it should be a non issue that those groups partake in all parts of society and culture is basically true. This is what we want. But we aren't there yet - currently we are facing a huge effort for societies all over the world to undo many changes we had. It is 2017 and I can not safely state "I am a woman and I have a wife" without being afraid of repercussions. Do you have any idea how it might feel that a show that hasn't even aired yet gets flak by people that are supposedly supporting a open society just because it was announced LGBT and coloured cast will take part of the project? Don't you think it's hurtful cynicism that a majority complains that announcement or marketing strategies for once might not target them specifically? That you can read sentences like "there shouldn't bee too many LGBT actors/roles ina show because they don't make up a large part of the society" and people say "yes, that is a valid point"? Do you know how it feels that your very being gets a stamp of being a "political agenda" whenever it is mentioned?
There is a lot of clumsy, unlucky and wrong this going on also on the part of minority groups, that is true. But this Discovery case in particular is just a shameful display of people claiming they'd rather see the actors' qualities persuade them to watch the show when nothing had been shown yet, but somehow the announcement of LGBT or minority inclusion sits bad with them and they need to complain about something that they claim doesn't really affect them. This does not feel good and I don't want to accept that we as a society aren't able to get past this.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
when i look at TRIBBLE and stack it against TOS,TNG,DS9,VOY and ENT
it just doesnt hold a candle to them its like CBS is just taking a mighty duece on the IP of star trek
they dont care for quality rather they are trying to pander to a minority audience for more rating which means more cash
its not about some clandestine homosexual or minority agenda, its about trying to pander to milenials for more ratings.
anyways thats my take on it
"They are trying to pander to a minority audience for more ratings" - I leave this just stand for itself.
How can you say they don't care for quality - the people involved in the show, actors, writers, directors are accredited people but we read a utter distrust in any of their capabilities because diversity was announced to be a central part of the show - that is not criticising a marketing strategy because, even if it is what damage is doneto you? Just shrug and move on. But this here goes further and has really bitter tasting implications because it lumps opinions together with hateful words and no real consideration that even measures that seem a bit clumsy at first can have positive effects.
Impossible. You've never been sarcastic before. That's why I call you "the literal artan" when I talk to my friends.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
In what way does the marketing strategy influence the show's content? All the whining is made before even a single episode has been aired.
You're missing the point completely, no one's saying that the marketing strategy influences the content. The issue is not even with the content, but how very specific content is being highlighted to pander to millenials and a niche minority. As patrickngo said above, 'show me, don't tell me'. That's why the people who are complaining, are complaining: Because they're Being Told.
-The in-universe species of a chracter is also only important if you go for planet of the hats stories. Just like people claim that it shouldn't matter what ethnicity or sexuality a character is, that shouldn't matter either way. Or if it does, it is to adress RL racial issues. Go figure. I cannot speak for Fuller or an associated staff and wether announcing a homosexual character or a lead of colour does anything to increase their sales - but if that's the reason, so what. I know that it is very important for people to get popular culture inclusion and recognition, because that is the stuff that helps making things appear as "normal". If you grow up, struggle with what you are maybe even experience hate because of what you are, seeing someone like this taking the stage in popular culture, Star Trek of all things, is a huge deal. We live in a time where announcing a **** character or actor in a show is possible to begin with - in Takei's time, being **** meant for an actor to disappear and the shows to be canned. Luckily, that's not the case any more. So if the problem is only feeling that the show is advertised to a group not including you, so what - what is the problem? Does it in any way influence the experience you have when watching it?
The problem, as above: Show me, don't tell me.
Does it influence me? No. I can't speak for how it might influence someone else. I do, however, understand the psychology involved on both sides: Understanding the points, doesn't mean agreeing with them. There's a saying along the lines of, 'the sign of an astute mind, is being able to consider an idea, without being swayed by it.'
What the squeal is "pushing an agenda" supposed to mean in the first place? Yes, these are not your words but I still want to know. What is "pushing an agenda" in having minorities of whatever group in a cast of a show? The "agenda" that popular culture should include minorities?
As patrickngo said above, when a show's writers and showrunners consciously decide to highlight elements which aren't necessary to the narrative, they're pushing an agenda.
Yes, we can't have that, can we. What a dire political, evil plan. It was better when we just didn't acknowledge then, they didn't bother us and they had to deal with their issues on their own. I am sorry, but no matter what anyone claims about their own views, if you jump into the same boat as people complaining about "social agendas" and "enforcement" of anything you are in bad company and should really check your stance.
I can see this is a touchy subject for you, and I understand that, but if you're not prepared to try and view it rationally and without putting your personal feels in, I'm not going to continue discussing it. I'm happy to have a conversation, but I'm not getting embroiled in an on-going, endless ping-pong of point-counterpoint which doesn't serve any purpose.
The issue with Sulu as a way to honour Takei is another matter entirely, especially because it indeed undersells Takei's live work and wasn't done including him - but even so I fail to see anything harmful being done by announcing it.
You said before that you considered it clumsy, you already acknowledged that you saw a flaw in that process. I explained further at your request, I'm not going to try and further explain to you, a point you clearly don't want to grasp or acknowledge. Saying that you understand why it rubbed people the wrong-way, doesn't make you any less of a <womanwholikeswomen>, it just means you would be one capable of listening to something outside the echo-chamber.
If it increases clicks for them, fine I don't care.
But some do, and you can't dismiss their objection, however irrational and bigoted it may be, Just Because You Don't Like It. That's not how rational conversation works. Like I said yesterday: Bullying people into silence because you don't like what they say, is still bullying. It's still losing any objective highground. It's the first steps into fascism.
Do you really reason this by complaining they didn't take into account how all perceived this kind of announcement? You say something happened that made you feel left out? Do you want to tell me more about your feelings?
You're not reasoning at all, you're just being argumentative and drifting into ad hominem. Sorry, but I'm not indulging your desire to be confrontational.
The plea for true inclusion and diversity doesn't require special intonation on minorities and it should be a non issue that those groups partake in all parts of society and culture is basically true. This is what we want. But we aren't there yet - currently we are facing a huge effort for societies all over the world to undo many changes we had. It is 2017 and I can not safely state "I am a woman and I have a wife" without being afraid of repercussions.
Oh, so this is about you. Okay, now we're getting to the truth of the matter. Look, I'm sorry that you live in a country with a nasty spate of attacks against women thanks to some newcomers, but in America, or England, saying that you're a woman with a wife is not a big deal (unless you live in jonsill's neighbourhood) Again, see patrickngo's comment. None of those issues were present in the plot, because they weren't relevant to the plot. And if it isn't relevant to the plot, audiences don't need to have political ideology rammed down their throat (like Mirrors and Smoke tried to do)
Show. Not Tell.
Telling doesn't work. Telling doesn't engage the people who need to hear the message, it sets up resistance to it. Basic Psychology.
Do you have any idea how it might feel that a show that hasn't even aired yet gets flak by people that are supposedly supporting a open society just because it was announced LGBT and coloured cast will take part of the project? Don't you think it's hurtful cynicism that a majority complains that announcement or marketing strategies for once might not target them specifically? That you can read sentences like "there shouldn't bee too many LGBT actors/roles ina show because they don't make up a large part of the society" and people say "yes, that is a valid point"? Do you know how it feels that your very being gets a stamp of being a "political agenda" whenever it is mentioned?
Spare me the Argumentum ad misericordiam, I'll just consider it all as fallacious as the fallacy employed, and treat it accordingly.
There is a lot of clumsy, unlucky and wrong this going on also on the part of minority groups, that is true. But this Discovery case in particular is just a shameful display of people claiming they'd rather see the actors' qualities persuade them to watch the show when nothing had been shown yet, but somehow the announcement of LGBT or minority inclusion sits bad with them and they need to complain about something that they claim doesn't really affect them. This does not feel good and I don't want to accept that we as a society aren't able to get past this.
No, it's not shameful at all. Stop the rhetoric of guilting and shaming. It doesn't prove your point. What Is shameful, is deliberately pandering to minority and millennial viewers in the hopes of getting viewers, rather than simply putting out an engaging trailer for a good show and letting people make up their own minds.That's effectively saying "Our show is So TRIBBLE, we have to pull this TRIBBLE to even make people tune in!"
If people feel the need to say that they have an issue with something, rather than trying to shut down the discussion by dismissing their points as shameful, or whatever other negative buzzwords fit, try engaging with them instead and actually Listening to their Concerns, rather than just thinking how to counter them.
Again; Acknowledging someone else's point, being able to see where they're coming from, seeing what their complaints are, does Not mean having to agree with it. But without being able to engage with an opposing view,all anyone is doing, is locking themself in an echo-chamber, and that's not good. That's what fuels division. That's what drives wedges and creates segregations.
IDIC is key.
I don't want to live in a society like that either, but I can accept that, especially at the moment, we are nowhere near the equalitarian ideal of how things should actually be. Prime Timeline? TRIBBLE, we're in the middle of 1984, rapidly heading towards THX-1138, on our way to the Mirror Universe. (Hey, perhaps we can be non-sexual roomies and both have shaved heads and spiffy white jumpsuits just like everyone else! )
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
The times change. I suspect TOS just appeared on the TV screen with minimal advertisement compared to what we are used to today.
DSC however is a show of the early 21st century, and highly anticipated. Marketing will highlight a lot of stuff to gain viewers.
Marketnig is all about pandering.
The actual show will need to deliver compelling characters and stories. That they happen to be female, TRIBBLE, pee only once a year or are black is only a component of that character, if it's all there is to them, you can complain, but now, we don't know.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
(...)
The actual show will need to deliver compelling characters and stories. That they happen to be female, ****, pee only once a year or are black is only a component of that character, if it's all there is to them, you can complain, but now, we don't know.
Exactly. But right now, people like the person who's opinion is linked in the OP already draw conclusions before anything aired because they smell some kind of twisted political agenda being played. If it truly would be a disliking for a selected marketing strategy wouldn't we just say "it was marketed weird, but we'll see what's the show is going to be like" instead of writing essays how political groups infiltrated a franchise (OPs article's words, not those of anyone in here).
If I overreact I'm sorry @silverlobes but this is a topic that is often misused for masquerading bigotery and some arguments like the advertisment aiming at a specific group leaving out another, if brought forward to someone belonging to a "minority" is simply in bad taste. It is something that further fuels the desire for minorities to segregrate by themselves and that is the last thing we need.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
The times change. I suspect TOS just appeared on the TV screen with minimal advertisement compared to what we are used to today.
DSC however is a show of the early 21st century, and highly anticipated. Marketing will highlight a lot of stuff to gain viewers.
Marketnig is all about pandering.
The actual show will need to deliver compelling characters and stories. That they happen to be female, ****, pee only once a year or are black is only a component of that character, if it's all there is to them, you can complain, but now, we don't know.
Absolutely, but the issue with Discovery's marketing, is that they haven't highlighted a lot of stuff to gain viewers. They've carefully highlighted points to snag a particular audience: TRIBBLE? Check. Female? Check. Ethnic minority? Check. That's affirmative action BS, that's ticking boxes, that's, as patrickngo said, cosmetic diversity. The Orville? Got all those things, but put it across in an engaging and fun way, and a series which, if online comments are anything to go by, already the more popular series, without even being released! That's hitting the ball out of the park and taking a slow jog round the bases. What Discovery have done so far? That's a bunt.
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
(...) Oh, so this is about you. Okay, now we're getting to the truth of the matter. (...)
This has nothing to do with me. This has something to do with reflecting what subtext ones choice of words and displayed attitude have. And you do not become bedfellows with a crowd that considers DSC to be akin to "white genocide" just because you dislike an executive decision to advertise a product in a certain way because if so you'd not even risk getting in the same territory over essentially nothing.
If the inclusion and the announcement of said inclusion of minorities for whatever reasons (as I said, this is not just a matter of marketing - we live in a time where these are signals that are needed, reghardless what the intention of the executives was) causes such offense when the offended even claim it's basically about nothing there's something wrong.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
(...) Oh, so this is about you. Okay, now we're getting to the truth of the matter. (...)
This has nothing to do with me. This has something to do with reflecting what subtext ones choice of words and displayed attitude have. And you do not become bedfellows with a crowd that considers DSC to be akin to "white genocide" just because you dislike an executive decision to advertise a product in a certain way because if so you'd not even risk getting in the same territory over essentially nothing.
If the inclusion and the announcement of said inclusion of minorities for whatever reasons (as I said, this is not just a matter of marketing - we live in a time where these are signals that are needed, reghardless what the intention of the executives was) causes such offense when the offended even claim it's basically about nothing there's something wrong.
But it does have to do with you, because you're making it about you, because you're using your minority status to try and leverage the dialogue, and resorting to argumentum ad misericordiam by referencing your own personal scenario.
As I said, I'm prepared to have a conversation, I'm not prepared to indulge argumentativeness which doesn't do anything to improve the situation or reach any conclusions.
In all the threads I've read about Discovery, I've not seen any mention of "white genocide" or any right-wing discussions, so if you want my view on those, you'll have to link me to them.
And yes, there is something wrong: The way Discovery is being produced and marketed. Not an issue with the content, because we haven't seen enough content yet to judge it, but the cosmetic diversity which the producers are employing and pandering to, in the hopes of snagging viewers.
The Orville hasn't done any of that, even though it clearly contains some of the same minorities, it just released a trailer which has captured (potential)fans interest, not raised their bloodpressure.
If I overreact I'm sorry @silverlobes but this is a topic that is often misused for masquerading bigotery and some arguments like the advertisment aiming at a specific group leaving out another, if brought forward to someone belonging to a "minority" is simply in bad taste. It is something that further fuels the desire for minorities to segregrate by themselves and that is the last thing we need.
That's okay, I understand your views, and I Do appreciate your concerns, but, I won't pander to them just because you hold them. That would be a dishonest conversation.
The thing is, perpetually being an angry targ and digging your hoofs in, isn't going to get the issues solved, it just increases them. Bear in mind that there are now minority-only dorms on American campuses. That's right, SJW loons have segregated themselves 'Because Muh Diversity!' The enaction through 'tolerant progression', of regressive, divisive behaviour. And these are supposed to be places of education.
Calling this BS out isn't some kind of bigotry, it's an honest critique of ludicrous, massively hypocritical behaviour.
I turned down the sheets on the cell/room bunks today, tomorrow it's your turn
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Jason Issacs, the freaking CAPTAIN of the ship the show is named after, was not even SHOWN in the trailer.
Now here is an honest question: if they had cast a minority group in that role, does anyone honestly believe that character wouldn't have been front and center in the first commercial?
But because he isn't a minority group, his character is being put in a backseat role in the advertising.
Or maybe he's not the main character.
I'd also point out that's he's ever so technically Jewish and English. Both of which are minorities of sorts in the US.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Jason Issacs, the freaking CAPTAIN of the ship the show is named after, was not even SHOWN in the trailer.
Now here is an honest question: if they had cast a minority group in that role, does anyone honestly believe that character wouldn't have been front and center in the first commercial?
But because he isn't a minority group, his character is being put in a backseat role in the advertising.
I have a theory which might explain this (if it's accurate)
The Shenzhou is a ship of the 25th Century, and it, and its crew, are congruent to that era.
Captain Lorca, is the captain of the Discovery, a ship of the 22nd Century (and all will be congruous to The Cage or Prelude to Axanar)
They haven't shown any of that, because that's the twist that they're waiting to wow the fans with.
That Klingon sarcophagus ship? That's going to be A Ship, and the 'Klingon shipS'(plural) indicated on the trailer, they're going to be D7s with some smooth-headed gold-vest wearing Augment Klingons of the 22nd Century.
To show Lorca or the Discovery, or the KlingonS would mean showing the things they're trying to keep secret.
At least, that's a theory which Could explain what has been seen thus far. Personally, I think I'm extending the benefit of the doubt beyond the point of reasonableness to 'make it fit', but it could be done.
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
What Is shameful, is deliberately pandering to minority and millennial viewers in the hopes of getting viewers, rather than simply putting out an engaging trailer for a good show and letting people make up their own minds.
You're right. Why would anyone in their right mind try to make a TV show that caters to a huge segment of the viewing public?
That's just crazy!!
</sarcasm>
According to you the trailer wasn't engaging. Quite a few people I know thought it looked great and look forward to seeing the show when it is released.
Not according to me, according to the comments which can be found on the discussion threads on social media platforms and response-to-article columns.
Overwhelming majority of comments related to The Orville have been positive and interested. Overall response to Discovery, has been lacklustre.
As we discussed yesterday, you pointed out, there was also plenty of fan backlash about TNG, and I acknowledged that my peer group didn't represent all Trek fandom, but my peer group was excited for TNG, and every one of the follow up series'. You now have to make the same concession: Your friends aren't all Trek fandom. Just because you guys are all looking forward to Discovery, doesn't mean that all fandom is.
The apathy toward Discovery is visible on any social media platform you care to visit.
Rumors like those mentioned by Midnight's Edge, are coming from somewhere. Dismissing them just because they can't be solidly confirmed, is, in my belief, foolhardy.
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Jason Issacs, the freaking CAPTAIN of the ship the show is named after, was not even SHOWN in the trailer.
Now here is an honest question: if they had cast a minority group in that role, does anyone honestly believe that character wouldn't have been front and center in the first commercial?
But because he isn't a minority group, his character is being put in a backseat role in the advertising.
Or maybe he's not the main character.
Sonequa Martin-Green is the main character(protagonist). That means everyone else they showed in the preview is...not. Yet, they still showed all those other characters. They showed every announced character that is played by a minority or whose character is an LGBTQ character.
What they didn't show was the captain of the ship the show is named after, who just so happens to be one of those boring old straight white males. Do you honestly think they wouldn't be showing off his character if it was a female, racial minority, or LGBTQ issue?
Discrimination works both ways. I think having a diverse case is a great thing. I don't think hiding some characters because they don't happen to be *insert the popular minority group today* is cool.
I don't know if you noticed but they didn't show the Discovery at all. They are not hiding Isaacs from you. They are hiding all of Discovery from you.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Social media all over the web and news organizations throughout the country all said unequivocally Hillary Clinton would be our next President too. Opinions posted on social media are just that.... opinion - not gospel.
Sure, the show may not succeed. It may be an enormous hit and propel Star Trek for the next 50 years on the small screen. No one knows at this point. All we've seen are a few photos and clips which amount to minutes of more than 15 hours of television. Nobody knows at this point.
And yet again I fee it necessary to ask you- if the trailer didn't appeal to you, then why bother with the show? Don't watch it. Problem easily solved for you.
Absolutely, they're not gospel, they are indeed just opinions. But since when did opinions become devalued?
Nobody knows, so what we're talking about, is the mood of the crowd, and in this context, opinions are a reasonable gauge of the mood.
I just looked at Axanar's facebook post about the Discovery trailer. While the responses were primarily positive ones, there was also a significant number of negative ones, and in the instances where people actually took the time to write, rather than just click and scroll, there are plenty of critical comments, and I daresay the critical comments outweigh the positive ones.
And as I said to you yesterday:
-I'm willing to wait for more information or trailers before I decide if I'm going to watch it or not. I don't mind if this is a reboot, I don't mind if this is an anthology show, I don't mind if this is Kelvin Timeline, I don't mind if timetravel somehow brings a 25th Century ship into the 22nd Century of the Prime Timeline which is familiar to us. Another viewpoint I heard someone make, I forget where, was the idea that this series might be best thought of as a sequel to Enterprise, not a prequel to TOS. I think that's an interesting notion, and personally, I wouldn't mind that either. What I don't like, is an identifiable era of Prime Timeline being dangled as a lure to get subscribers for CBS Streaming and Netflix, then just delivering something else Because Reasons.
-I'm not saying I don't want to watch it, just that I'd like a bit more information on what's actually going on, and what we're actually being offered.
If they come out and hold their hands up and say 'this is a complete reboot', I'd respect that. I'll still sit down and watch it. But don't try and tell me that this:
is in any way aligned with this
and expect me to take the notion seriously.
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
I would honestly have to ask.... in what way are they not aligned?
And you would be being disingenuous.
In what way are they? Well, they do both show people. People wearing clothes. People wearing clothes on the bridge of a starship. But that's where the similarity ends.
Which image is this more aligned with? A or B?
>>TriggerWarning:Not a universally well thought of person<<
when i look at TRIBBLE and stack it against TOS,TNG,DS9,VOY and ENT
it just doesnt hold a candle to them its like CBS is just taking a mighty duece on the IP of star trek
they dont care for quality rather they are trying to pander to a minority audience for more rating which means more cash
its not about some clandestine homosexual or minority agenda, its about trying to pander to milenials for more ratings.
anyways thats my take on it
"They are trying to pander to a minority audience for more ratings" - I leave this just stand for itself.
How can you say they don't care for quality - the people involved in the show, actors, writers, directors are accredited people but we read a utter distrust in any of their capabilities because diversity was announced to be a central part of the show - that is not criticising a marketing strategy because, even if it is what damage is doneto you? Just shrug and move on. But this here goes further and has really bitter tasting implications because it lumps opinions together with hateful words and no real consideration that even measures that seem a bit clumsy at first can have positive effects.
Impossible. You've never been sarcastic before. That's why I call you "the literal artan" when I talk to my friends.
youve missed my point altogether, they have trekkies already but they are also pandering to a minority audience aswell, it comes down to more ratings, trekkies will almost watch anything with trek on it regardless ,however CBS is trying to get more viewers by pandering to a minority audience like blacks,asians LGBT and milenials to garner even more ratings, its not about some agenda and more adieu about making more cash and ratings equals cash.
Comments
If you're making a big splash about diversity just for the sake of making a splash then it isn't really meaningful. It's like how having lgbt characters isn't bad for Star Trek, but, unless Star Trek is a sci-fi premises upon a dramatization of some sexual revolution, the fact that they are lgbt shouldn't be front and center. Sulu, Scotty, Geordi, Uhura, Spock, Data, that Frenchman with an English accent, Janeway, Worf were not simply just stand ins for their race and gender but remarkable individuals with stories to tell. Their diversity was a part of them but not all that they were.
Hopefully, Discovery will handle this gracefully and have a solid story where the diversity doesn't feel like a checklist but a natural part of the universe, but so far CBS seems destined to TRIBBLE it up.
I think you took to many nukes to the head rattler, becaue your sarcasm meter done broke i sowwy
I believe artan was being sarcastic
Sisko doesn't even know what to think.
Winning.
Oh, now don't tell me you want in on all this! Well, ok. Look this that Egg Pawn hanging outside your window, pointing his laser rifle at you, waiting for my next order. He's doing his part. He helps conquer the weak-minded. He roboticizes the weak-bodied. Heck, he even helps keep the useless people from causing any trouble, but you know what? Join. Find the closest Nataran Empire roboticization center near you and join the ranks, before the ranks find you. Oh, I know, you figure it must be so satisfying to know I basically rule the world now, and you know what? It is, but do you want to know the true definition of satisfaction? Well, let me tell you a little story. One day, you see a brand new event. They're giving out boxes that give old event stuff. Your dilithium is plentiful. You buy a whole lot of Phoenix packs on your main, and open them all. You get one epic token. Then, you decide, that since you have all the Breen ships and don't give a damn about the others, you exchange it for an ultra rare, and grab yourself a Jem'Hadar Attack Ship and for the hell of it, a Voth Bulwark. You open both, leaving the Bulwark in your vast masses of starships as you jump into the bugship and deck it out, deck by deck, into the most awesome Jem'Hadar ship you can. You fly it. You enjoy it. Eventually, you get bored and leave, leaving the old Bulwark never flown... until later. Your main is long complete. Your new alt main, based off some character you pulled out of nothing just to explain away some starship being in service without the command of your dear admiral, is also complete. Mostly. Their reps and doffs are hard at work, getting you stuff. You realize the potential, and head back for your dear admiral, pull the most Voth themed build you can out of thin air, and suit up in your giant ship in the shape of you know what. You head out... and cause all sorts of havoc. Enemies scream out your name as their very life is drained away by your swarms of Aceton Assimilators. They complain to the devs of your OPness when you revive yourself from death every time you die. Do you show any form of mercy? No. After all, this isn't the United Federation of Planets, this is mother frakkin' Starfleet, where you explore strange new worlds and kick butt never kicked before. Oh, and you realize that I just wrote another speech rivaling your own signature. Cool. Oh, wait, that's just the original draft, it is part of my signature now. Oh, and yes, I am aware that I have become a Canadian Regent; one day, sooner than you'd expect, we'll suddenly decide to take over the world and declare an "alliance", and I shall become it's Regent. You know, like the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance in the mirror universe of our beloved Star Trek. Oh, who'll we be taking over with? I dunno, maybe [REDACTED], or maybe aliens from outer space. Guess you'll have to wait and find out, won't we? Until then, don't ask too many questions, or else my Breen allies on Titania might pick up on your -- [REDACTED BY BREEN CONFEDERACY FOR REASONS] Also, psst... keep an eye out for flying Tribbles! Also walls. Big, great walls, separating entire continents apart. Walls patrolled by Tribbles. Flying Tribbles. Flying Nukara Tribbles. Don't worry, it's not like they were on Venus with a herd of Tholians or anything, they just like the extreme heat and brutal weather like acid rain and hurricane force winds as the norm. Oh, and definitely keep your eye out on any two-tailed foxes, because if they ain't glowing, they're definitely an imposter. Possibly an Undine, we caught one of those once in my place once. Oh, and if you find a two-tailed fox that doesn't like the cold... most certainly ask him to say sorry. If he refuses, DESTROY HIM WITH A DOOMSDAY MACHINE, BECAUSE THERE'S NOTHING ELSE THAT WOULD BE ENOUGH AGAINST SUCH AN OVERPOWERED IMPOSTER!
tr;dr, I am winning last post wins 3.0. Thank you for your time.
it just doesnt hold a candle to them its like CBS is just taking a mighty duece on the IP of star trek
they dont care for quality rather they are trying to pander to a minority audience for more rating which means more cash
its not about some clandestine homosexual or minority agenda, its about trying to pander to milenials for more ratings.
anyways thats my take on it
I was being ever so slightly sarcastic.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
If so, okay, but I feel if that'd be all the waves being made are really unjustified. In what way does the marketing strategy influence the show's content? All the whining is made before even a single episode has been aired.
The in-universe species of a chracter is also only important if you go for planet of the hats stories. Just like people claim that it shouldn't matter what ethnicity or sexuality a character is, that shouldn't matter either way. Or if it does, it is to adress RL racial issues. Go figure. I cannot speak for Fuller or an associated staff and wether announcing a homosexual character or a lead of colour does anything to increase their sales - but if that's the reason, so what. I know that it is very important for people to get popular culture inclusion and recognition, because that is the stuff that helps making things appear as "normal". If you grow up, struggle with what you are maybe even experience hate because of what you are, seeing someone like this taking the stage in popular culture, Star Trek of all things, is a huge deal. We live in a time where announcing a TRIBBLE character or actor in a show is possible to begin with - in Takei's time, being TRIBBLE meant for an actor to disappear and the shows to be canned. Luckily, that's not the case any more. So if the problem is only feeling that the show is advertised to a group not including you, so what - what is the problem? Does it in any way influence the experience you have when watching it?
What the squeal is "pushing an agenda" supposed to mean in the first place? Yes, these are not your words but I still want to know. What is "pushing an agenda" in having minorities of whatever group in a cast of a show? The "agenda" that popular culture should include minorities? Yes, we can't have that, can we. What a dire political, evil plan. It was better when we just didn't acknowledge then, they didn't bother us and they had to deal with their issues on their own. I am sorry, but no matter what anyone claims about their own views, if you jump into the same boat as people complaining about "social agendas" and "enforcement" of anything you are in bad company and should really check your stance. The issue with Sulu as a way to honour Takei is another matter entirely, especially because it indeed undersells Takei's live work and wasn't done including him - but even so I fail to see anything harmful being done by announcing it. If it increases clicks for them, fine I don't care. But I value the signal this can send, regardless of the original intentions of the anouncer. The same reason why Levar Burton praises DSC for a captain of colour, because the current real life context is important and it sends a messge to people that are in dire need of getting positive signals by a society they don't know is accepting of them int his day and age.
Do you really reason this by complaining they didn't take into account how all perceived this kind of announcement? You say something happened that made you feel left out? Do you want to tell me more about your feelings? The plea for true inclusion and diversity doesn't require special intonation on minorities and it should be a non issue that those groups partake in all parts of society and culture is basically true. This is what we want. But we aren't there yet - currently we are facing a huge effort for societies all over the world to undo many changes we had. It is 2017 and I can not safely state "I am a woman and I have a wife" without being afraid of repercussions. Do you have any idea how it might feel that a show that hasn't even aired yet gets flak by people that are supposedly supporting a open society just because it was announced LGBT and coloured cast will take part of the project? Don't you think it's hurtful cynicism that a majority complains that announcement or marketing strategies for once might not target them specifically? That you can read sentences like "there shouldn't bee too many LGBT actors/roles ina show because they don't make up a large part of the society" and people say "yes, that is a valid point"? Do you know how it feels that your very being gets a stamp of being a "political agenda" whenever it is mentioned?
There is a lot of clumsy, unlucky and wrong this going on also on the part of minority groups, that is true. But this Discovery case in particular is just a shameful display of people claiming they'd rather see the actors' qualities persuade them to watch the show when nothing had been shown yet, but somehow the announcement of LGBT or minority inclusion sits bad with them and they need to complain about something that they claim doesn't really affect them. This does not feel good and I don't want to accept that we as a society aren't able to get past this.
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"They are trying to pander to a minority audience for more ratings" - I leave this just stand for itself.
How can you say they don't care for quality - the people involved in the show, actors, writers, directors are accredited people but we read a utter distrust in any of their capabilities because diversity was announced to be a central part of the show - that is not criticising a marketing strategy because, even if it is what damage is doneto you? Just shrug and move on. But this here goes further and has really bitter tasting implications because it lumps opinions together with hateful words and no real consideration that even measures that seem a bit clumsy at first can have positive effects.
Impossible. You've never been sarcastic before. That's why I call you "the literal artan" when I talk to my friends.
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The problem, as above: Show me, don't tell me.
Does it influence me? No. I can't speak for how it might influence someone else. I do, however, understand the psychology involved on both sides: Understanding the points, doesn't mean agreeing with them. There's a saying along the lines of, 'the sign of an astute mind, is being able to consider an idea, without being swayed by it.'
As patrickngo said above, when a show's writers and showrunners consciously decide to highlight elements which aren't necessary to the narrative, they're pushing an agenda.
I can see this is a touchy subject for you, and I understand that, but if you're not prepared to try and view it rationally and without putting your personal feels in, I'm not going to continue discussing it. I'm happy to have a conversation, but I'm not getting embroiled in an on-going, endless ping-pong of point-counterpoint which doesn't serve any purpose.
You said before that you considered it clumsy, you already acknowledged that you saw a flaw in that process. I explained further at your request, I'm not going to try and further explain to you, a point you clearly don't want to grasp or acknowledge. Saying that you understand why it rubbed people the wrong-way, doesn't make you any less of a <womanwholikeswomen>, it just means you would be one capable of listening to something outside the echo-chamber.
But some do, and you can't dismiss their objection, however irrational and bigoted it may be, Just Because You Don't Like It. That's not how rational conversation works. Like I said yesterday: Bullying people into silence because you don't like what they say, is still bullying. It's still losing any objective highground. It's the first steps into fascism.
You're not reasoning at all, you're just being argumentative and drifting into ad hominem. Sorry, but I'm not indulging your desire to be confrontational.
Oh, so this is about you. Okay, now we're getting to the truth of the matter. Look, I'm sorry that you live in a country with a nasty spate of attacks against women thanks to some newcomers, but in America, or England, saying that you're a woman with a wife is not a big deal (unless you live in jonsill's neighbourhood) Again, see patrickngo's comment. None of those issues were present in the plot, because they weren't relevant to the plot. And if it isn't relevant to the plot, audiences don't need to have political ideology rammed down their throat (like Mirrors and Smoke tried to do)
Show. Not Tell.
Telling doesn't work. Telling doesn't engage the people who need to hear the message, it sets up resistance to it. Basic Psychology.
Spare me the Argumentum ad misericordiam, I'll just consider it all as fallacious as the fallacy employed, and treat it accordingly.
No, it's not shameful at all. Stop the rhetoric of guilting and shaming. It doesn't prove your point. What Is shameful, is deliberately pandering to minority and millennial viewers in the hopes of getting viewers, rather than simply putting out an engaging trailer for a good show and letting people make up their own minds.That's effectively saying "Our show is So TRIBBLE, we have to pull this TRIBBLE to even make people tune in!"
Here's how it should be done:
If people feel the need to say that they have an issue with something, rather than trying to shut down the discussion by dismissing their points as shameful, or whatever other negative buzzwords fit, try engaging with them instead and actually Listening to their Concerns, rather than just thinking how to counter them.
Again; Acknowledging someone else's point, being able to see where they're coming from, seeing what their complaints are, does Not mean having to agree with it. But without being able to engage with an opposing view,all anyone is doing, is locking themself in an echo-chamber, and that's not good. That's what fuels division. That's what drives wedges and creates segregations.
IDIC is key.
I don't want to live in a society like that either, but I can accept that, especially at the moment, we are nowhere near the equalitarian ideal of how things should actually be. Prime Timeline? TRIBBLE, we're in the middle of 1984, rapidly heading towards THX-1138, on our way to the Mirror Universe. (Hey, perhaps we can be non-sexual roomies and both have shaved heads and spiffy white jumpsuits just like everyone else!
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
DSC however is a show of the early 21st century, and highly anticipated. Marketing will highlight a lot of stuff to gain viewers.
Marketnig is all about pandering.
The actual show will need to deliver compelling characters and stories. That they happen to be female, TRIBBLE, pee only once a year or are black is only a component of that character, if it's all there is to them, you can complain, but now, we don't know.
Exactly. But right now, people like the person who's opinion is linked in the OP already draw conclusions before anything aired because they smell some kind of twisted political agenda being played. If it truly would be a disliking for a selected marketing strategy wouldn't we just say "it was marketed weird, but we'll see what's the show is going to be like" instead of writing essays how political groups infiltrated a franchise (OPs article's words, not those of anyone in here).
If I overreact I'm sorry @silverlobes but this is a topic that is often misused for masquerading bigotery and some arguments like the advertisment aiming at a specific group leaving out another, if brought forward to someone belonging to a "minority" is simply in bad taste. It is something that further fuels the desire for minorities to segregrate by themselves and that is the last thing we need.
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"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
This has nothing to do with me. This has something to do with reflecting what subtext ones choice of words and displayed attitude have. And you do not become bedfellows with a crowd that considers DSC to be akin to "white genocide" just because you dislike an executive decision to advertise a product in a certain way because if so you'd not even risk getting in the same territory over essentially nothing.
If the inclusion and the announcement of said inclusion of minorities for whatever reasons (as I said, this is not just a matter of marketing - we live in a time where these are signals that are needed, reghardless what the intention of the executives was) causes such offense when the offended even claim it's basically about nothing there's something wrong.
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As I said, I'm prepared to have a conversation, I'm not prepared to indulge argumentativeness which doesn't do anything to improve the situation or reach any conclusions.
In all the threads I've read about Discovery, I've not seen any mention of "white genocide" or any right-wing discussions, so if you want my view on those, you'll have to link me to them.
And yes, there is something wrong: The way Discovery is being produced and marketed. Not an issue with the content, because we haven't seen enough content yet to judge it, but the cosmetic diversity which the producers are employing and pandering to, in the hopes of snagging viewers.
The Orville hasn't done any of that, even though it clearly contains some of the same minorities, it just released a trailer which has captured (potential)fans interest, not raised their bloodpressure.
That's okay, I understand your views, and I Do appreciate your concerns, but, I won't pander to them just because you hold them. That would be a dishonest conversation.
The thing is, perpetually being an angry targ and digging your hoofs in, isn't going to get the issues solved, it just increases them. Bear in mind that there are now minority-only dorms on American campuses. That's right, SJW loons have segregated themselves 'Because Muh Diversity!' The enaction through 'tolerant progression', of regressive, divisive behaviour. And these are supposed to be places of education.
Calling this BS out isn't some kind of bigotry, it's an honest critique of ludicrous, massively hypocritical behaviour.
I turned down the sheets on the cell/room bunks today, tomorrow it's your turn
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Or maybe he's not the main character.
I'd also point out that's he's ever so technically Jewish and English. Both of which are minorities of sorts in the US.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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The Shenzhou is a ship of the 25th Century, and it, and its crew, are congruent to that era.
Captain Lorca, is the captain of the Discovery, a ship of the 22nd Century (and all will be congruous to The Cage or Prelude to Axanar)
They haven't shown any of that, because that's the twist that they're waiting to wow the fans with.
That Klingon sarcophagus ship? That's going to be A Ship, and the 'Klingon shipS'(plural) indicated on the trailer, they're going to be D7s with some smooth-headed gold-vest wearing Augment Klingons of the 22nd Century.
To show Lorca or the Discovery, or the KlingonS would mean showing the things they're trying to keep secret.
At least, that's a theory which Could explain what has been seen thus far. Personally, I think I'm extending the benefit of the doubt beyond the point of reasonableness to 'make it fit', but it could be done.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Overwhelming majority of comments related to The Orville have been positive and interested. Overall response to Discovery, has been lacklustre.
As we discussed yesterday, you pointed out, there was also plenty of fan backlash about TNG, and I acknowledged that my peer group didn't represent all Trek fandom, but my peer group was excited for TNG, and every one of the follow up series'. You now have to make the same concession: Your friends aren't all Trek fandom. Just because you guys are all looking forward to Discovery, doesn't mean that all fandom is.
The apathy toward Discovery is visible on any social media platform you care to visit.
Rumors like those mentioned by Midnight's Edge, are coming from somewhere. Dismissing them just because they can't be solidly confirmed, is, in my belief, foolhardy.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
I don't know if you noticed but they didn't show the Discovery at all. They are not hiding Isaacs from you. They are hiding all of Discovery from you.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Absolutely, they're not gospel, they are indeed just opinions. But since when did opinions become devalued?
Nobody knows, so what we're talking about, is the mood of the crowd, and in this context, opinions are a reasonable gauge of the mood.
I just looked at Axanar's facebook post about the Discovery trailer. While the responses were primarily positive ones, there was also a significant number of negative ones, and in the instances where people actually took the time to write, rather than just click and scroll, there are plenty of critical comments, and I daresay the critical comments outweigh the positive ones.
And as I said to you yesterday:
-I'm willing to wait for more information or trailers before I decide if I'm going to watch it or not. I don't mind if this is a reboot, I don't mind if this is an anthology show, I don't mind if this is Kelvin Timeline, I don't mind if timetravel somehow brings a 25th Century ship into the 22nd Century of the Prime Timeline which is familiar to us. Another viewpoint I heard someone make, I forget where, was the idea that this series might be best thought of as a sequel to Enterprise, not a prequel to TOS. I think that's an interesting notion, and personally, I wouldn't mind that either. What I don't like, is an identifiable era of Prime Timeline being dangled as a lure to get subscribers for CBS Streaming and Netflix, then just delivering something else Because Reasons.
-I'm not saying I don't want to watch it, just that I'd like a bit more information on what's actually going on, and what we're actually being offered.
If they come out and hold their hands up and say 'this is a complete reboot', I'd respect that. I'll still sit down and watch it. But don't try and tell me that this:
is in any way aligned with this
and expect me to take the notion seriously.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
https://ixquick-proxy.com/do/spg/show_picture.pl?l=english_uk&rais=1&oiu=https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DAD0hTKUAAAUkTP.jpg&sp=6a473cba2dbcae8303413fc5b0171757
https://ixquick-proxy.com/do/spg/show_picture.pl?l=english_uk&rais=1&oiu=http://www.kethinov.com/images/startrek/TOS1x00a.png&sp=008b90b5563b86840a3d58c4ab3ecb39
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
In what way are they? Well, they do both show people. People wearing clothes. People wearing clothes on the bridge of a starship. But that's where the similarity ends.
Which image is this more aligned with? A or B?
>>TriggerWarning:Not a universally well thought of person<<
https://ixquick-proxy.com/do/spg/show_picture.pl?l=english_uk&rais=1&oiu=http://geekchocolate.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Axanar3.jpg&sp=2f75b9502d11efcbd7e3e6c2bdd3f6cb
Another example:
If I told you that this:
https://ixquick-proxy.com/do/spg/show_picture.pl?l=english_uk&rais=1&oiu=http://i2.wp.com/blackreelawards.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/new-jack-city-two-disc-special-edition-200508150215327202.jpg?fit=852%2C480&sp=88d0ad70ca1e3eae0f9a4fb4e1ed506a
Was set 10 years before this:
https://ixquick-proxy.com/do/spg/show_picture.pl?l=english_uk&rais=1&oiu=https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BMTU4NzIzODk0OV5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwNzgzMDkwMw@@._V1_SY1000_CR0,0,1515,1000_AL_.jpg&sp=2381d9f46b694287919d0a2de3e2f23d
Would you believe it, or would you call BS on it?
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
youve missed my point altogether, they have trekkies already but they are also pandering to a minority audience aswell, it comes down to more ratings, trekkies will almost watch anything with trek on it regardless ,however CBS is trying to get more viewers by pandering to a minority audience like blacks,asians LGBT and milenials to garner even more ratings, its not about some agenda and more adieu about making more cash and ratings equals cash.