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Any news on a new exploration system yet?

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  • captainchaos66captainchaos66 Member Posts: 409 Arc User
    Why not tie the exploration mission to the foundry? The foundry is still pretty popular as far as I know, and I'm sure with enough broadcasting, and some " training" videos or something, even more players would take a stab at making a mission.
    They would likely have to establish some baseline criteria IE: mission should be around 10-20 minutes long, but even then, there could be a way for the player to CHOOSE the length of the missions they want. There are so many unused solar systems just sort of floating around in the STO universe that this could become popular I think. As one poster suggested tie-it to a reputation system with unique " exploration" type rewards. Heck, create a new sector area just for this system.
    I'm not overly familiar with the foundry, so it may not be possible, to do this. But I agree with most every other poster, exploration DOES need to be brought back.
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    diablo 2 didn't even have procedural generation; those maps were all created beforehand and the game just randomizes between them each time you start up a new game - which is why, after a point, you can start predicting where everything is after uncovering a small portion of a map​​
    Some maps were static, some totally random. Example: When you first get to the starting town, what side of town is the exit on?

    There is no right answer since it's randomly chosen. The actual layout of the town itself is the same, but whether you're heading north to fight Blood Raven is totally random. Certain parts of the randomness are always the same, like the tree where you get that magic book, but the relative location of the tree is random. There are many aspects that aren't fully random, such as the entrance to the Amazon fortress, it always faces either SE or SW. And some specific maps are static, like Tristram and the Valley of the Kings. This changed in act 5, since those are giant static maps with only small details(like shrines) randomly placed.
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  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    angrytarg wrote: »
    I didn't mean you specifically, just something that popped into my mind and thought to get out.

    Yes, you can hand-craft some variability, but ultimately you will always know what to expect and only replay to experience the narrative again, not to see something new. The basic design of a "exploration" mission is sto was and is of course limited. Scan, defeat, retrieve, escort, defend and all of those in multiple combinations (as in first do this, then do that) but you will never have a real narrative. But that is probably nothing people expect from randomly generated content.
    The thing is, you say "Scan, defeat, retrieve, escort, defend and all of those in multiple combinations," but those are distinct only in a narrative way. In gameplay, they were all just "shoot something" or "press F at something." Meaning even in the best case scenario there were only 3 possible combinations.

    Without a narrative to give it all meaning, the only difference between encounters is the graphics. One day you're on a brown planet and some dudes are shooting you with red beams to stop you from pressing F at some plants and the next day you're on an orange planet and some other dudes are shooting you with green beams to stop you from pressing F at some rocks. What's the difference?

    Whether the setting is handcrafted or generated, the gameplay itself, the mission objective, is always more or less handcrafted. Because while there are unlimited number of potential environments to generate, there isn't unlimited number of things a player can do. At some point, there is a template made by a person behind all the generated stuff.

    And I think it would be a mistake to assume the average player is willing to give a whole lot of slack for procedurally generated content, just because it's procedurally generated. People know what they like and what they don't. "It was automatically made by a computer" isn't going to change much.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    The thing is, you say "Scan, defeat, retrieve, escort, defend and all of those in multiple combinations," but those are distinct only in a narrative way. In gameplay, they were all just "shoot something" or "press F at something." Meaning even in the best case scenario there were only 3 possible combinations.

    Without a narrative to give it all meaning, the only difference between encounters is the graphics. One day you're on a brown planet and some dudes are shooting you with red beams to stop you from pressing F at some plants and the next day you're on an orange planet and some other dudes are shooting you with green beams to stop you from pressing F at some rocks. What's the difference?

    Whether the setting is handcrafted or generated, the gameplay itself, the mission objective, is always more or less handcrafted. Because while there are unlimited number of potential environments to generate, there isn't unlimited number of things a player can do. At some point, there is a template made by a person behind all the generated stuff.

    And I think it would be a mistake to assume the average player is willing to give a whole lot of slack for procedurally generated content, just because it's procedurally generated. People know what they like and what they don't. "It was automatically made by a computer" isn't going to change much.

    I think you have to ask yourself at which point the whole debate becomes arbitrary. Because the entirety of STO (for example) is "go there, press F, shoot mobs" - even the handcrafted featured episodes are always the same gameplay, tied together by dialogue boxes that affect nothing but your state of mind. And in a environment where you don't get the story told by a random box you have to make it up in your head. This is a way many, many older (and a few new, retro styled ones) games operated on. Diablo and other hack&slay games, which are very similiar to STO in terms o gameplay, have a story more or less well told and then you play the same thing over and over, but it stays fresh through variation of monsters, maps and locations. If you play Pirates! or Mount and Blade the objective of the game is always the same but you are dynamic in how you get there. Play a 4x like Birth of the Federation, same story but it's dynamic through randomization and possiblities you have. The base gameplay always stays the same, but the way you play doesn't. In your example above, yes one time it's a brown planet and aliens with red beams. You have to gear to resist red beams, use tactics to defeat them and help out brown planet. Suddenly you face green beamed aliens that work differently that may or may not fight you because you helped brown planet or brown planet will get angry at you - this is just an example, but a dynamic, randomized and open-ended Exploration system should - in my opinion - work akin to Pirates! and comparable titles.

    You have your basic premise, but in the course of doing things you trigger variables that influence the progressing game to be more dynamic. Roll of dice like in a boardgame akin to Hero Quest or Space Crusade where you face dynamic and random elements a computer can throw at you (there were computer adaptations of those games that are pretty fun). Nobody said such a system would replace hand-crafted featured episodes but I think the two can coexist with no problems.​​
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    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
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  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    angrytarg wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    The thing is, you say "Scan, defeat, retrieve, escort, defend and all of those in multiple combinations," but those are distinct only in a narrative way. In gameplay, they were all just "shoot something" or "press F at something." Meaning even in the best case scenario there were only 3 possible combinations.

    Without a narrative to give it all meaning, the only difference between encounters is the graphics. One day you're on a brown planet and some dudes are shooting you with red beams to stop you from pressing F at some plants and the next day you're on an orange planet and some other dudes are shooting you with green beams to stop you from pressing F at some rocks. What's the difference?

    Whether the setting is handcrafted or generated, the gameplay itself, the mission objective, is always more or less handcrafted. Because while there are unlimited number of potential environments to generate, there isn't unlimited number of things a player can do. At some point, there is a template made by a person behind all the generated stuff.

    And I think it would be a mistake to assume the average player is willing to give a whole lot of slack for procedurally generated content, just because it's procedurally generated. People know what they like and what they don't. "It was automatically made by a computer" isn't going to change much.

    I think you have to ask yourself at which point the whole debate becomes arbitrary. Because the entirety of STO (for example) is "go there, press F, shoot mobs" - even the handcrafted featured episodes are always the same gameplay, tied together by dialogue boxes that affect nothing but your state of mind.
    That's what I just said, only the story is different. Which is why declaring the story as not important removes that distinction.

    The "why" is important. Why am I on some random planet doing something with some random objects. Why are these random dudes here trying to stop me (or, standing around in the middle of nowhere waiting for me to come shoot them, as the case may be)? Why are these random objects worth killing people over? In the feature episodes, we have the "why," even if we don't always agree with it. And that's what makes them more than just pressing F and shooting mobs.

    Of course, all the unique handcrafted rewards we get from the feature episodes don't hurt, either.
    And in a environment where you don't get the story told by a random box you have to make it up in your head. This is a way many, many older (and a few new, retro styled ones) games operated on. Diablo and other hack&slay games, which are very similiar to STO in terms o gameplay, have a story more or less well told and then you play the same thing over and over, but it stays fresh through variation of monsters, maps and locations. If you play Pirates! or Mount and Blade the objective of the game is always the same but you are dynamic in how you get there. Play a 4x like Birth of the Federation, same story but it's dynamic through randomization and possiblities you have. The base gameplay always stays the same, but the way you play doesn't. In your example above, yes one time it's a brown planet and aliens with red beams. You have to gear to resist red beams, use tactics to defeat them and help out brown planet. Suddenly you face green beamed aliens that work differently that may or may not fight you because you helped brown planet or brown planet will get angry at you - this is just an example, but a dynamic, randomized and open-ended Exploration system should - in my opinion - work akin to Pirates! and comparable titles.​​
    That would be nice. But when you play STO, the red beamed aliens and the blue beamed aliens work just the same. The color of the beams is literally the only noticeable difference. The same gear works just fine against both of them and the only tactics you'll need to defeat them is walking into range, turning on autofire and switching targets when one dies. And they always want to fight you.
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    Which is all to say, it's not impossible to make good procedural gameplay, but it's a lot harder and a lot more work than just "gen a random map, add random enemies/objects and tell the player to go shoot/interact with them."
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    Which is all to say, it's not impossible to make good procedural gameplay, but it's a lot harder and a lot more work than just "gen a random map, add random enemies/objects and tell the player to go shoot/interact with them."

    That goes without saying. I think that however is encompassed in people saying the system needs to be expanded or revamped. The reasons why you did those missions were told in dialogue boxes, the stories just didn't vary. In principle you don't need those because as a Starfleet or KDF officer it is your job to explore places and react on the things you find there. The mission itself would need of course reaction dialogue to outline what is going on and that becomes repetetive at one point, but ultimately the system itself would also have to let you work towards something like generating reputation or infamy in a cluster you work on depending on your choices which further influences things you find there. Don't get me wrong, creating open-ended dynamic gameplay especially for STO would be a monumental task, but I for example think it'd be worth it. Simply because those old dynamic games I mentioned are, more or less, immortal and still played today after decades by active communities.​​
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    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    This thread is funny. It's fine to dream, but the truth is this game will never have a "real" exploration system. Do you know why? It's because this isn't that "kind" of game, and you don't radically change what type of game you have 7 years after launch.
    What's really funny is that some people have to comment in a thread, even if only to say they think the subject is a waste of time and they don't want to discuss it.
  • talonxvtalonxv Member Posts: 4,257 Arc User
    Well to all the people stating the game is what it is. While it was bad the game HAD exploration. So the devs took while a badly thought out system for exploring and tossed it. That's fine. But they didn't put something in to replace it.

    This is something all the naysayers keep forgetting. The game HAD exploration. And nothing was put in it's place. And exploration is one of the cornerstones of Star Trek and the Federation, and it's MISSING.

    The main story only goes so far. Rest of the time it's basically rack up the body count as much as possible. May as well be the Terran Empire at this point.
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  • devilment666devilment666 Member Posts: 112 Arc User
    Ah, exploration. That thing they never actually did in the TV shows. It was only ever there as a reason for the Enterprise crew to be where they were before the plot of the episode kicked in. Then you'd have one of the following scenarios kick in:
    1) A negative space wedgie would imperil the ship and Scotty/Geordi/Data/Wesley would save the day;
    2) Some conflict between alien races that would mirror an aspect of humanity;
    3) A character development episode.

    Any other standard plots I've missed?
  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 10,238 Community Moderator
    Ok, I'm going to caution everyone NOT to intentionally troll. It's a good discussion with some good ideas.
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