Given the info, in the decision process way back with Lighting 2.0 and porting STO to consoles did know dynamic atmosphere lighting ("the baked in ambient light can't.") would have to be sacrificed. Someone made the decision or was forced into making it.
Don't think anyone can deny that this is about maximizing short term profits. In this case, it's pushing a more attractive product to the console market even if the end result is highly limited, sterile, and static environment maps.
Casino Trek Online profits rarely get re-invested into STO, and developing a worse graphics overhaul instead of a proper one is another perfect case in point.
believe me, they did broke it all right. they don't know how to fix it, so they are going to hope that they find solution in this mess.
me, i'd like to say that they can do it, find the original code and add it into new lighting 2.0 to have it working as well. i believe they missed a step with creating a code for the game that they probably missed a minor critical step to day/night cycles of worlds.
I'm sure they've thought about how to make it work, but it doesn't work yet. When will it? no idea.
Yeah...thats Cryptic for you. While they have the time to "Balance" and give us so much fun with the Great Nerf of 2017, there is NO time at all to fix Risa? I know there are different teams involved but see where their priority is currently.
More FUN would be Risa than being nerfed to oblivion on the upcoming Season. This is shameful and Devs should really re-consider to create or fix an alternative and make this happen for summer 2017.
I only consider stuff a nerf if it's going to negatively impact my build. So far, I didn't find anything that will negatively impact me.
They have two new episodes on the way in the coming weeks as well as new queues and a new reputation with class specific gear coming. Don't judge anything until you've had the chance to fully try everything out, especially since they're still fine tuning the powers on tribble. Season 13 is still a few weeks away.
Given the info, in the decision process way back with Lighting 2.0 and porting STO to consoles did know dynamic atmosphere lighting ("the baked in ambient light can't.") would have to be sacrificed. Someone made the decision or was forced into making it.
Don't think anyone can deny that this is about maximizing short term profits. In this case, it's pushing a more attractive product to the console market even if the end result is highly limited, sterile, and static environment maps.
Casino Trek Online profits rarely get re-invested into STO, and developing a worse graphics overhaul instead of a proper one is another perfect case in point.
How can anyone say we move forward when what was in the past so much better that what we have now? Cryptic FIX it please
Unfortunately, on reddit, Tacofangs has said the following:
Reddit User: It has to do with the way sunlight bounces off of objects to further light a scene... this information is baked into the map and cannot be altered like they did to pull off the simulation of a day/night cycle in the old lighting system.
My understanding is that there would have to be a set of shader textures baked for every single step of the day/night cycle. If they just did one per hour, that would be 24 sets of textures, massively inflating the amount of memory and storage the one map would require (ignoring the work needed to make changing it dynamically in the software side).
Tacofangs: Mostly accurate. The basics is that the new lighting system bakes in some of the lighting to the vertices of the geometry. That baked in lighting can't change. So we could have the day/night cycle, and the sky would change, and the direct lighting would change, but the baked in lighting would make the models look like they're being lit by the sun from above, even in the middle of the night.
We essentially sacrifice a day and night cycle for the sake of making the game look better for lighting. I think it's a sacrifice I can live with.
I'm displeased to read this change had unfolded. I don't see this as at all a positive thing for STO.
Assuming exploration of new worlds ever climbs to the top of that white board, I want to see new Day/Night cycles for planetary exploration maps. Using the most current lighting scheme. With new social variants going forward. This is an MMORPG. And not just for consoles. Perhaps this is something the company would permit the environment artists to tackle as part of the next expansion update? Can't hurt to ask, right?
(/\) Exploring Star Trek Online Since July 2008 (/\)
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Time, funds and manpower aside. From a technical standpoint would making a new map of Risa solve the problem?
"There is iron in your words of death for all Comanche to see, and so there is iron in your words of life. No signed paper can hold the iron. It must come from men. The words of Ten Bears carries the same iron of life and death. It is good that warriors such as we meet in the struggle of life... or death. It shall be life." - Ten Bears (Will Sampson)
Time, funds and manpower aside. From a technical standpoint would making a new map of Risa solve the problem?
No from what Taco says a few posts up, it seems any dynamic lighting increases/decreases (like a day/night cycle) would be irrelevant due to the 2.0 lighting vertices casting a light on your character from above, no matter what the maps overall illumination is doing.
Only solution is to have a separate night and day map. But even then, the moon/sun cycles would still create there own lighting issues with the vertices. Though less drastic since you're only dealing with 12 hrs - half of a days cycle.
It'd be great if they could somehow solve the issue. But it seems pretty permanent.
Perhaps we'll all have to lower our expectations in terms of dynamic environments going forward.
Weather/lighting will have to be baked in as new maps are added.
Perhaps it's time for STO 2. New engine on the cutting edge of technology.
Don't know if we'll ever see that. Doubt they have resources for it.
I feel overall the game looks fairly good for its age though, limitations aside. The improvements they've made have been pretty impressive for their software, hardware and funding. And perhaps Lighting 2.0 was the best choice for everyone going forward.... Until STO 2 can be worked out. I dunno.
That said, losing the day/night cycle still stings pretty bad. It's certainly the biggest sacrifice we've made in the quest to make the overall game look better.
Tacofangs: Mostly accurate. The basics is that the new lighting system bakes in some of the lighting to the vertices of the geometry. That baked in lighting can't change. So we could have the day/night cycle, and the sky would change, and the direct lighting would change, but the baked in lighting would make the models look like they're being lit by the sun from above, even in the middle of the night.
Would people be able to live with this ? In order to have the day/night cycle ? Baked in model lighting, even in the middle of the night ?
I think I could live with that.
We'd all be shiny. Dancing. Just dancing.
Yeah, how dare they upgrade the lighting engine without regard to the one map that's used for one month a year that had a completely superfluous day/night cycle. Game's ruined FOREVER!
Yeah, how dare they upgrade the lighting engine without regard to the one map that's used for one month a year that had a completely superfluous day/night cycle. Game's ruined FOREVER!
Not.
I would not call it an upgrade when something that worked very well last year and players loved it suddenly does not work at all.
Love to have what you are on man... Where to start... Oh yeah DR, The borked STF's, The mass exodus of players due to DR, The nerfs in the name of "PVP balance" , the utterly stupid way the T-6 TOS Constitution/D-7/Bird of Prey roll out was handled, the shutting out players on Apple, Shutting out players with Vista, Win7 systems that don't support DX11. Yeah great successes... Really the only great success was the launch on consoles.
What did DR do? The "mass exodus" is a myth spread by people momentarily disgruntled with the game yet there is no proof anything like this happened. Don't confuse reality with the confirmation bias in your immedeate environment - just because "your friends" quit doesn't mean there has been a "mass exodus".
Borked STFs - I agree that dead queues are an issue - but there is zero incentive from Cryptic to do anything about this which suggests to me that it's not that big of an issue for their metrics.
"Nerfs in the name of PvP balance" - I don't know what this has to do with the game's success. Game mechanics and stats change regardless of a game's vitality. Further, they try to revitalize PvP which has been in a state of clinical death for years now. It was neglected, now there is time to work on it appearantly, meaning no more pressing issues.
Cancelling support for old and alternative OSs - Same thing. Yes, those players that did not use alternative means of playing are lost - they can affort to do this, appearantly, because the game is healthy enough.
STO is seven years old and has already outlived other MMOs and they can afford expensive (and arguably superflous, but that's a matter of taste) voice overs on a regular basis and are cosntantly working on things. I personally dislike a lot that has happened, but I don't confuse my personal disappointment with "the game is dying" - I just have to accept that my taste and what I deem important aren't in-line with Cryptic's plans and visions.
Where did anyone claim that the entire game has been ruined by this?
I can assure you that the Risa (event) map is NOT only used for "one month a year" - it has become a pretty active social map. Take a look sometime; not sure of your timezone, but I was there at 11pm GMT yesterday and it was very well populated.
Since warpangel used the phrasing "only used for one month" I'd assume they don't do anything in STO that doesn't grant rewards, hence wouldn't care about a social map anyway. I think that is the stance of the majority of the playerbase if you consider that these "fluff" features get neglected over and over.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I personally think they should had left the lighting on PC alone. There was nothing wrong with it to begin with. Their talent should have gone towards more meaningful fixes & creation.
However they have been hacking the Event Risa map for years, adding new buildings and ruining the wilderness. There were still places you could just leave your character at and watch how the suns travel over the sky, though. Now that is gone entirely.
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix, Toveg, T'vritha, To Vrax: Bring in the Allegiance class. Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider. Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Yeah, how dare they upgrade the lighting engine without regard to the one map that's used for one month a year that had a completely superfluous day/night cycle. Game's ruined FOREVER!
Not.
Where did anyone claim that the entire game has been ruined by this?
I can assure you that the Risa (event) map is NOT only used for "one month a year" - it has become a pretty active social map. Take a look sometime; not sure of your timezone, but I was there at 11pm GMT yesterday and it was very well populated.
I did, just now. Not. You know, just for laughs. I'd expected the at the end would sufficiently hint the sarcasm.
And the map is used by the game itself for one month a year. As in, it's not something to design primary engine features around.
Love to have what you are on man... Where to start... Oh yeah DR, The borked STF's, The mass exodus of players due to DR, The nerfs in the name of "PVP balance" , the utterly stupid way the T-6 TOS Constitution/D-7/Bird of Prey roll out was handled, the shutting out players on Apple, Shutting out players with Vista, Win7 systems that don't support DX11. Yeah great successes... Really the only great success was the launch on consoles.
What did DR do? The "mass exodus" is a myth spread by people momentarily disgruntled with the game yet there is no proof anything like this happened. Don't confuse reality with the confirmation bias in your immedeate environment - just because "your friends" quit doesn't mean there has been a "mass exodus".
Borked STFs - I agree that dead queues are an issue - but there is zero incentive from Cryptic to do anything about this which suggests to me that it's not that big of an issue for their metrics.
"Nerfs in the name of PvP balance" - I don't know what this has to do with the game's success. Game mechanics and stats change regardless of a game's vitality. Further, they try to revitalize PvP which has been in a state of clinical death for years now. It was neglected, now there is time to work on it appearantly, meaning no more pressing issues.
Cancelling support for old and alternative OSs - Same thing. Yes, those players that did not use alternative means of playing are lost - they can affort to do this, appearantly, because the game is healthy enough.
STO is seven years old and has already outlived other MMOs and they can afford expensive (and arguably superflous, but that's a matter of taste) voice overs on a regular basis and are cosntantly working on things. I personally dislike a lot that has happened, but I don't confuse my personal disappointment with "the game is dying" - I just have to accept that my taste and what I deem important aren't in-line with Cryptic's plans and visions.
Where did anyone claim that the entire game has been ruined by this?
I can assure you that the Risa (event) map is NOT only used for "one month a year" - it has become a pretty active social map. Take a look sometime; not sure of your timezone, but I was there at 11pm GMT yesterday and it was very well populated.
Since warpangel used the phrasing "only used for one month" I'd assume they don't do anything in STO that doesn't grant rewards, hence wouldn't care about a social map anyway. I think that is the stance of the majority of the playerbase if you consider that these "fluff" features get neglected over and over.
Yeah waste time and resources on PVP that has been a stinking bloated corpse. But no they decided to do that instead of using that time and energy for new episodes and revamping some PVE areas to have a solo option for T-6 Epic geared ships added. I would love to have a shot at trying to solo an STF instead of pulling the load for an inept group. PVP is not going to stay revitlized after a few weeks it will revert to what it was. If they had been serious about reviltizing PVP they should have done it 4,5,6 years ago when the issues started showing up.
Unlike some of you, I don't have many awesome pictures of Risa at nighttime. All I have are a few screenshots that I took for a bug report I never got around to writing.
I don't know about Risa but they could fix the bajor map pretty easily by replacing all the models of buildings with models of rubble and making it a sort of permanent twilight from particulate matter in the atmosphere to simulate a nuclear winter or the result of some other extreme bombardment of the surface.
Or you could just not go there if you don't like it. You know - the same advice you give everyone else?
I don't know about Risa but they could fix the bajor map pretty easily by replacing all the models of buildings with models of rubble and making it a sort of permanent twilight from particulate matter in the atmosphere to simulate a nuclear winter or the result of some other extreme bombardment of the surface.
Or you could just not go there if you don't like it. You know - the same advice you give everyone else?
except his advice would improve map conditions and aesthetics
Maybe if you turn off lighting 2.0 while on Risa you can get the day/night effect? Just reaching for straws here but if it is a workaround I would try it .
"There is iron in your words of death for all Comanche to see, and so there is iron in your words of life. No signed paper can hold the iron. It must come from men. The words of Ten Bears carries the same iron of life and death. It is good that warriors such as we meet in the struggle of life... or death. It shall be life." - Ten Bears (Will Sampson)
Maybe if you turn off lighting 2.0 while on Risa you can get the day/night effect? Just reaching for straws here but if it is a workaround I would try it .
Unfortunately not. Tacofangs confirmed (on Reddit, of course not in the official forum ) that day and night cycles are gone for good. If you switch "Lighting 2.0" off you don't get the old lighting system back either, that's also gone for good.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Maybe if you turn off lighting 2.0 while on Risa you can get the day/night effect? Just reaching for straws here but if it is a workaround I would try it .
Well, this raises an interesting question. Is the sun/moon cycle still active on the map ? Or is the sun now a static fixture, placed at high noon ?
I'm not sure as I haven't been there for some months.
So there may not even be a day/night cycle to work with. But, even if there was, I doubt that turning off 2.0 would yield any better results going by what tacofangs explained. Seems all the 3d models take on some lighting in the change.
Even turning off 2.0 won't get rid of that base level lighting I guess.
(...)
Even turning off 2.0 won't get rid of that base level lighting I guess.
Turning L 2.0 off doesn't revert your game to the old state, you still use L 2.0 just with disabled features. The new lighting is a static part of the map itself, L 2.0 lit maps are different from the old maps. The old system is gone for good and so are the maps and cycles
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
So they are not likely to fix it even for the next summer event? That would be such a shame since the cycle was part of what made the summer event enjoyable.
So they are not likely to fix it even for the next summer event? That would such since the cycle was part of what made the summer event enjoyable.
There is nothing to fix, that's the whole point. It was a conscious decision to remove it from the game. It's not coming back.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Turning L 2.0 off doesn't revert your game to the old state, you still use L 2.0 just with disabled features. The new lighting is a static part of the map itself, L 2.0 lit maps are different from the old maps. The old system is gone for good and so are the maps and cycles
Many people use the terms "new lighting system" and "Lighting 2.0" synonymously, and they use the term "old lighting system" to refer to what you get now if you turn Lighting 2.0 off. I think this creates a lot of confusion. I distinguish between three cases:
(a) the old lighting system before AoYA (Agents of Yesterday: Artifacts)
(b) the new lighting system with Lighting 2.0 turned off
(c) the new lighting system with Lighting 2.0 turned on
Comments
Wow what a nice screenshot!
How can anyone say we move forward when what was in the past so much better that what we have now? Cryptic FIX it please
I only consider stuff a nerf if it's going to negatively impact my build. So far, I didn't find anything that will negatively impact me.
They have two new episodes on the way in the coming weeks as well as new queues and a new reputation with class specific gear coming. Don't judge anything until you've had the chance to fully try everything out, especially since they're still fine tuning the powers on tribble. Season 13 is still a few weeks away.
Unfortunately, on reddit, Tacofangs has said the following:
We essentially sacrifice a day and night cycle for the sake of making the game look better for lighting. I think it's a sacrifice I can live with.
Assuming exploration of new worlds ever climbs to the top of that white board, I want to see new Day/Night cycles for planetary exploration maps. Using the most current lighting scheme. With new social variants going forward. This is an MMORPG. And not just for consoles. Perhaps this is something the company would permit the environment artists to tackle as part of the next expansion update? Can't hurt to ask, right?
A sad, but beautiful screenshot.
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No from what Taco says a few posts up, it seems any dynamic lighting increases/decreases (like a day/night cycle) would be irrelevant due to the 2.0 lighting vertices casting a light on your character from above, no matter what the maps overall illumination is doing.
Only solution is to have a separate night and day map. But even then, the moon/sun cycles would still create there own lighting issues with the vertices. Though less drastic since you're only dealing with 12 hrs - half of a days cycle.
It'd be great if they could somehow solve the issue. But it seems pretty permanent.
Perhaps we'll all have to lower our expectations in terms of dynamic environments going forward.
Weather/lighting will have to be baked in as new maps are added.
Perhaps it's time for STO 2. New engine on the cutting edge of technology.
Don't know if we'll ever see that. Doubt they have resources for it.
I feel overall the game looks fairly good for its age though, limitations aside. The improvements they've made have been pretty impressive for their software, hardware and funding. And perhaps Lighting 2.0 was the best choice for everyone going forward.... Until STO 2 can be worked out. I dunno.
That said, losing the day/night cycle still stings pretty bad. It's certainly the biggest sacrifice we've made in the quest to make the overall game look better.
Would people be able to live with this ? In order to have the day/night cycle ? Baked in model lighting, even in the middle of the night ?
I think I could live with that.
We'd all be shiny. Dancing. Just dancing.
Not.
I would not call it an upgrade when something that worked very well last year and players loved it suddenly does not work at all.
More like a DOWNGRADE IMO
What did DR do? The "mass exodus" is a myth spread by people momentarily disgruntled with the game yet there is no proof anything like this happened. Don't confuse reality with the confirmation bias in your immedeate environment - just because "your friends" quit doesn't mean there has been a "mass exodus".
Borked STFs - I agree that dead queues are an issue - but there is zero incentive from Cryptic to do anything about this which suggests to me that it's not that big of an issue for their metrics.
"Nerfs in the name of PvP balance" - I don't know what this has to do with the game's success. Game mechanics and stats change regardless of a game's vitality. Further, they try to revitalize PvP which has been in a state of clinical death for years now. It was neglected, now there is time to work on it appearantly, meaning no more pressing issues.
Cancelling support for old and alternative OSs - Same thing. Yes, those players that did not use alternative means of playing are lost - they can affort to do this, appearantly, because the game is healthy enough.
STO is seven years old and has already outlived other MMOs and they can afford expensive (and arguably superflous, but that's a matter of taste) voice overs on a regular basis and are cosntantly working on things. I personally dislike a lot that has happened, but I don't confuse my personal disappointment with "the game is dying" - I just have to accept that my taste and what I deem important aren't in-line with Cryptic's plans and visions.
Since warpangel used the phrasing "only used for one month" I'd assume they don't do anything in STO that doesn't grant rewards, hence wouldn't care about a social map anyway. I think that is the stance of the majority of the playerbase if you consider that these "fluff" features get neglected over and over.
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However they have been hacking the Event Risa map for years, adding new buildings and ruining the wilderness. There were still places you could just leave your character at and watch how the suns travel over the sky, though. Now that is gone entirely.
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
And the map is used by the game itself for one month a year. As in, it's not something to design primary engine features around.
can live with =/= like or prefer
No, its just going to sit until the game is closed, they are taking bets on that in Vegas.
The night's will be missed,
Yeah waste time and resources on PVP that has been a stinking bloated corpse. But no they decided to do that instead of using that time and energy for new episodes and revamping some PVE areas to have a solo option for T-6 Epic geared ships added. I would love to have a shot at trying to solo an STF instead of pulling the load for an inept group. PVP is not going to stay revitlized after a few weeks it will revert to what it was. If they had been serious about reviltizing PVP they should have done it 4,5,6 years ago when the issues started showing up.
Unlike some of you, I don't have many awesome pictures of Risa at nighttime. All I have are a few screenshots that I took for a bug report I never got around to writing.
Or you could just not go there if you don't like it. You know - the same advice you give everyone else?
except his advice would improve map conditions and aesthetics
Unfortunately not. Tacofangs confirmed (on Reddit, of course not in the official forum
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Well, this raises an interesting question. Is the sun/moon cycle still active on the map ? Or is the sun now a static fixture, placed at high noon ?
I'm not sure as I haven't been there for some months.
So there may not even be a day/night cycle to work with. But, even if there was, I doubt that turning off 2.0 would yield any better results going by what tacofangs explained. Seems all the 3d models take on some lighting in the change.
Even turning off 2.0 won't get rid of that base level lighting I guess.
Turning L 2.0 off doesn't revert your game to the old state, you still use L 2.0 just with disabled features. The new lighting is a static part of the map itself, L 2.0 lit maps are different from the old maps. The old system is gone for good and so are the maps and cycles
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There is nothing to fix, that's the whole point. It was a conscious decision to remove it from the game. It's not coming back.
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No, the suns don't move now, though they're not at high noon. See the screenshots in the bug report below.
As I understand it, Risa was altered to keep the suns in a fixed position.
Many people use the terms "new lighting system" and "Lighting 2.0" synonymously, and they use the term "old lighting system" to refer to what you get now if you turn Lighting 2.0 off. I think this creates a lot of confusion. I distinguish between three cases:
(a) the old lighting system before AoYA (Agents of Yesterday: Artifacts)
(b) the new lighting system with Lighting 2.0 turned off
(c) the new lighting system with Lighting 2.0 turned on
The three-way distinction makes things clearer.