Iron Fist! (MAY CONTAIN SPOILERS BEYOND FIRST POST!)

mhall85

So, I just finished season one of Iron Fist on Netflix.

I liked it. In fact, I'm kinda scratching my head about all of the bad reviews this show was getting upon release.

That's not to say it's free of issues... and feel free to discuss that below (spoilers welcomed, but properly mark posts with spoilers).

But, what did everyone else think?

angrytarg

On the fence about it. It wasn't bad, but I watched the first two episodes of Daredevil right after finishing IF and DD is galaxies ahead of the whole series in these two episodes alone. I am on mobile right now and can't use spoiler tags so I won't go into details, but Iron Fist has only a single character getting serious depth and development over the series, the rest all are in their archetypical niche and never leave it. And this character is not the protagonist who is, frankly, quite annoying after a few episodes. There are some glaring logic issues I can't go into details about because of the spoiler thing but overall it's probably the weakest of the Netflix MCU in my opinion. It has unfortunately even bigger story issues than DD series 2 (which is quite cringey). However it was still fun, as I said it is not a bad show. It just really pales against DD and JJ who simply have a better actor portfolio.

mhall85

I agree about Daredevil, @angrytarg. It still is top dog, by quite a bit.

I also think that Marvel Studios would be wise to combine Luke Cage and Iron Fist at some point. It only makes sense, given the comics, of course... but, it also could strengthen cast & story options.

mhall85

valoreah wrote: »

Rosario Dawson and Jessica Henwick are hot!

Yes, LOL.

legendarylycan

mhall85 wrote: »

I agree about Daredevil, @angrytarg. It still is top dog, by quite a bit.

I also think that Marvel Studios would be wise to combine Luke Cage and Iron Fist at some point. It only makes sense, given the comics, of course... but, it also could strengthen cast & story options.

or it could result in a 'too many cooks' situation​​

starkaos

Critics usually have no idea what they are talking about. Probably has to do with their elitist attitudes and not understanding what the Public actually wants. Too often critically-acclaimed movies and shows are boring dreck and popular movies and shows are received poorly by critics.

mhall85

starkaos wrote: »

Critics usually have no idea what they are talking about. Probably has to do with their elitist attitudes and not understanding what the Public actually wants. Too often critically-acclaimed movies and shows are boring dreck and popular movies and shows are received poorly by critics.

Yes, good point.

And that's why I still gave this show a shot, despite hearing everything from cries of "whitewashing" to descriptions of the first six episodes as "utterly boring."

Either of those criticisms didn't connect with me. I don't even understand the whitewashing claim, given what I understand about the source material, so I dismissed that almost immediately. While the show does give the Meachums a lot of screen time, I personally was never "bored" with the storyline. If Danny Rand is to use his fortune to help him as Iron Fist, then the "corporate intrigue" aspects need to happen, at least to some degree.

captainwells

The cast was fine and made due with what they were given. The direction was really poor, the staging of the scenes was often soporific at best and usually seemed like an afterthought. The fight choreography for a martial arts show was indefensibly bad from start to finish? How this happened and nobody at Netflix caught if before releasing the show to such deservedly bad reviews is inexcusable in this day and age? Iron Fist was a real letdown for me.

iconians

I didn't care for it. It was boring. There was no comic relief characters to lighten the mood. The writing had way too many plotholes (which would have been easier to ignore if there was more going on). The antagonists were lackluster (except for Madame Gao, she was a highlight of the show). The martial arts sequences were similarly underwhelming when held to the long-cut fight sequences of Daredevil.

Danny Rand had way too much in the way of anger issues to play a convincing buddhist. There were more boardroom meetings than fight sequences, and the whole plot device where he has 51% shareholder majority in the company I really had to suspend my disbelief on.

I'm still not quite sure what purpose Claire Temple had in the show other than to remind viewers Iron Fist was part of a greater continuity.

I think Iron Fist would have probably made a better supporting character in Luke Cage, than getting his own stand-alone show. I just don't think he has the screen presence or personality to get audiences to empathize with him.

He could have gotten killed and I wouldn't have cared. There was no sense of urgency, and no effort made to make the audiences root for the hero. Since Danny Rand has no idea who he is or what he does, and neither do we.

I think it's a show that (perhaps intentionally) struggles to find its purpose, just like Danny.​​

mhall85

iconians wrote: »

I think Iron Fist would have probably made a better supporting character in Luke Cage, than getting his own stand-alone show. I just don't think he has the screen presence or personality to get audiences to empathize with him.

Agreed totally.

I think it would have helped both shows, to be honest. Luke Cage started strong, and I personally found Cottonmouth quite compelling as a villain. Once the show pivoted in the middle of the season, though... meh. I don't know if I would characterize Iron Fist's shortcomings in quite the same way as you did... but, at the least, I felt it got going better towards the end of the season. In other words, it suffered the reverse of what Luke Cage suffered.

Despite its shortcomings, I still felt Iron Fist was better than most of the shows on TV right now. I am a bit worried, though, about the potential friendship of Danny and Luke Cage. I'm not sure if it's Danny's "lack of charisma" or not, but I still think both characters would have been served better, if they were introduced together.

Shoot, we did get Luke Cage in Jessica Jones first, after all...

artan42

Other than the lacklustre fight scenes (which technically is a big problem due to the genera) I liked it, it was far more concise and less rambling than DD2 or JJ (though I enjoyed those two more than this mainly due to the characters) but far superior to LC in every way, that show was dull with barely a good character in the whole show (even the main worked better in JJ than his own show).

There's a lot of dangling stuff that I imagine will be cleared up in The Defenders (such as what the hell it actually is the Hand does).

The only problem I'll have post-Defenders is the whole 'Superman Stays out of Gotham' trope where we'll be expected to believe the four main characters will all go back to their corners of New York (separate from Spider-Man and Iron Mans corners I might add) and despite being a train ride away will never be called upon by the others even when it's the obvious thing to do.
Both Matt and Jessica were known to Clare and the former had fought the hand, the second one would probably helped for cash (which Danny has lots of) and yet they weren't even ruled out. It's like all the post-Avengers: Assemble films where the concept of calling another Avenger wasn't even considered (imagine how useful Iron Man would be in taking down the Hellicarriers, to say nothing of Hulk).

Plus, army of ninjas and a big hole. Vision, War Machine, Iron Man, and Spider-Man are still based in New York as of the end of Captain America: Civil War, Doctor Strange possibly as well (depending on his whereabouts in Thor: Ragnarok and the timeframe of The Defenders), what can they possibly do in The Defenders to keep all the mystical TRIBBLE out of the scope of Stark (with his near-omniscient AI) or Strange (with his magic)? What about SHIELD team 616 and new SHIELDs mass surveillance of the world?

iconians

mhall85 wrote: »

iconians wrote: »

I think Iron Fist would have probably made a better supporting character in Luke Cage, than getting his own stand-alone show. I just don't think he has the screen presence or personality to get audiences to empathize with him.

Agreed totally.

I think it would have helped both shows, to be honest. Luke Cage started strong, and I personally found Cottonmouth quite compelling as a villain. Once the show pivoted in the middle of the season, though... meh. I don't know if I would characterize Iron Fist's shortcomings in quite the same way as you did... but, at the least, I felt it got going better towards the end of the season. In other words, it suffered the reverse of what Luke Cage suffered.

Despite its shortcomings, I still felt Iron Fist was better than most of the shows on TV right now. I am a bit worried, though, about the potential friendship of Danny and Luke Cage. I'm not sure if it's Danny's "lack of charisma" or not, but I still think both characters would have been served better, if they were introduced together.

Shoot, we did get Luke Cage in Jessica Jones first, after all...

I find that a hero is best defined by the villains they face. It took a really long time for Danny Rand to get to the point where the villains he faced were more interesting than the Meachums. I liked Evil Faramir to a point, because he reminded me of Willem Dafoe's Norman Osborne, but I think Madame Gao and the introduction of Colleen Wing's sensei towards the end would have made more compelling villains from the get-go, and I think that's really why the show got better towards the end.

More flashbacks to K'un-Lun would have helped bridge the gap between Manhattan-and-Mysticism that made Iron Fist the comic book character he is, and I think the old black and white footage of a former Iron Fist fighting chinese soldiers is the kind of thing I wanted to see more of, but the show failed to deliver on. A recurring criticism in the show? It had potential, but they failed to take advantage of it.

Jessica Jones, Matt Murdock, and Luke Cage are all relatable. They're people who were given a raw deal and have tried to make the most of it given their limited ability to influence the world around them, which really brings out that heroic spirit in them.

Danny Rand suffers the reverse of that. His history was really only inferred, and the plane crash sequence got really old to the point it reminded me of Thomas and Martha Wayne's murders. There really came a point in Iron Fist where I was saying out loud, "Okay, we get it. The plane crash traumatized him. Let's move on already!"

It just didn't have the same kind of emotional impact, since we know he was trained in a monastery, and then he comes back and gets immense wealth literally just handed over to him, and he blows it. He's really just failing his way to success through a series of coincidences, and he never really gets a chance to grow on his own organically.

angrytarg

artan42 wrote: »

(...)
Plus, army of ninjas and a big hole. (...)

Where the OINK were the ninjas? Seriously!? ​​

artan42

angrytarg wrote: »

artan42 wrote: »

(...)
Plus, army of ninjas and a big hole. (...)

Where the OINK were the ninjas? Seriously!?

Oh they were really good ninjas who remained unseen for all 13 episodes...

Or a disappointment where there were no ninjas in a show specifically about ninjas and other martial artsy stuff. Still, they had plenty of ninjas in that other show about the blind vigilante who's supposed to go after mobsters and drug dealers.​​

mhall85

iconians wrote: »

mhall85 wrote: »

iconians wrote: »

I think Iron Fist would have probably made a better supporting character in Luke Cage, than getting his own stand-alone show. I just don't think he has the screen presence or personality to get audiences to empathize with him.

Agreed totally.

I think it would have helped both shows, to be honest. Luke Cage started strong, and I personally found Cottonmouth quite compelling as a villain. Once the show pivoted in the middle of the season, though... meh. I don't know if I would characterize Iron Fist's shortcomings in quite the same way as you did... but, at the least, I felt it got going better towards the end of the season. In other words, it suffered the reverse of what Luke Cage suffered.

Despite its shortcomings, I still felt Iron Fist was better than most of the shows on TV right now. I am a bit worried, though, about the potential friendship of Danny and Luke Cage. I'm not sure if it's Danny's "lack of charisma" or not, but I still think both characters would have been served better, if they were introduced together.

Shoot, we did get Luke Cage in Jessica Jones first, after all...

I find that a hero is best defined by the villains they face. It took a really long time for Danny Rand to get to the point where the villains he faced were more interesting than the Meachums. I liked Evil Faramir to a point, because he reminded me of Willem Dafoe's Norman Osborne, but I think Madame Gao and the introduction of Colleen Wing's sensei towards the end would have made more compelling villains from the get-go, and I think that's really why the show got better towards the end.

More flashbacks to K'un-Lun would have helped bridge the gap between Manhattan-and-Mysticism that made Iron Fist the comic book character he is, and I think the old black and white footage of a former Iron Fist fighting chinese soldiers is the kind of thing I wanted to see more of, but the show failed to deliver on. A recurring criticism in the show? It had potential, but they failed to take advantage of it.

Jessica Jones, Matt Murdock, and Luke Cage are all relatable. They're people who were given a raw deal and have tried to make the most of it given their limited ability to influence the world around them, which really brings out that heroic spirit in them.

Danny Rand suffers the reverse of that. His history was really only inferred, and the plane crash sequence got really old to the point it reminded me of Thomas and Martha Wayne's murders. There really came a point in Iron Fist where I was saying out loud, "Okay, we get it. The plane crash traumatized him. Let's move on already!"

It just didn't have the same kind of emotional impact, since we know he was trained in a monastery, and then he comes back and gets immense wealth literally just handed over to him, and he blows it. He's really just failing his way to success through a series of coincidences, and he never really gets a chance to grow on his own organically.

Yeah, I can't defend the fighting in the show, LOL. That first scene in the first episode, where Danny breaks into the Rand Building... he looked like a boy-bander dancing around the security guards, LOL.

I also agree about the lack of K'un-Lun. It was a bit of a break from the formula of Marvel Netflix, which seemingly gives a "backstory" episode within the first six episodes of a new show. It's nice that they kinda broke from the formula here, but I did find the lack of K'un-Lun most palpable at the end of the final episode. With that ending, it felt like a giant tease, and a bigger missed opportunity.

And, they certainly have set him up to grow on his own, but like the K'un-Lun thing, they sorta just kicked that can down the road too much. Some of Danny's character turns were a bit... abrupt, LOL. Him "losing" the Iron Fist was a bit welcomed, albeit pretty predictable. Even then, though, I'll admit they didn't quite believe on that; he gained his powers back too quickly, and it COULD have been a great way to spur more character growth.

mustrumridcully0

It wasn't to the level of the previous Marvel Netflix shows in my opinion.

In the first episode, I found Danny Rand somewhat interesting, and was expecting for some clash between his buddhist and relaxed world view with New York and the business world. But instead, he kinda devolves and seems less controlled than he initially appears, and fumbling his way to success.

Iconians wrote:

liked Evil Faramir to a point, because he reminded me of Willem Dafoe's Norman Osborne, but I think Madame Gao and the introduction of Colleen Wing's sensei towards the end would have made more compelling villains from the get-go, and I think that's really why the show got better towards the end.

I liked the Meachum plot best overall. Ward started to us as a typical business prick that only cares for himself, but it slowly reveals there is more to it, and he actually grows during the show. His sister didn't get all that much to do, though I liked the conflicting aspects - she had an interesting conflict between her compassion and her ruthless business acumen. (The scene where she secures the Docks for the company was quite interesting.)

Coleen was the other interesting aspect. The actress was great in her role.
Her Sensei and Gao were also reasonably intriguing.

The fights were kinda disappointing. There were scenes were Danny seemed reasonably heroically competent, but there were too many where he wasn't good. The final fight against Dad Meachum was ridicilous, once the gun was out of the way, he should have finished him off rapidly.
Not to mention the fight choreography not being that great.

I was reasonably entertained, but not enough to actually binge watch it.

nikeix

I enjoyed it, but I did get tired of being slapped in the face with 'Danny Rand is a textbook millienal doofuss".

I DO NOT BELIEVE you could have 15 years of traditional monastic education and not have it physically beaten into you that "If you know nothing, SHUT. UP. (and listen to those who do)" His behavior the first time he's in the boardroom is preposterous.

And then they double down on it with "You've trained all your life to assume the mantle of a living weapon that guzzles chi like cheep beer... and you have to have a bad guy teach you how to refresh your chi? A lesson that take all of 200 seconds using a kata you already know?"

Who. Writes. This. Dung?

I liked most of it, but thought the final episode was full-on terrible.

I'll echo all the other comments that the fights were disappointing and that it's plainly the weakest of the Marvel/Netflix offerings so far.

hawku001x

I liked it! The fighting was clunky, but at least some techniques were there. I wasn't expecting Chinese cinema fighting or anything. Danny seemed awfully temperamental for someone who meditated most of his life. Critics are so hard on this show. Just let a show be what it's going to be.

angrytarg

valoreah wrote: »

I thought the Spider chick he fought was pretty hot.

That scene was probably the biggest disgrace for poor idiot Danny. "Hey 15-year-trained legendary living weapon monk, do you want to fight or look at my bewbs?" - "Duuuuh, bewbs... ouch oh, I'm dead..."

I'm not ready to believe men are that dumb ​​

artan42

angrytarg wrote: »

valoreah wrote: »

I thought the Spider chick he fought was pretty hot.

That scene was probably the biggest disgrace for poor idiot Danny. "Hey 15-year-trained legendary living weapon monk, do you want to fight or look at my bewbs?" - "Duuuuh, bewbs... ouch oh, I'm dead..."

I'm not ready to believe men are that dumb

Not all men...

Daredevil's blind remeber. Visual aesthetics are pretty much lost on him and he's would't get close enough to use the built in braille.​​

angrytarg

artan42 wrote: »

Not all men...

Daredevil's blind remeber. Visual aesthetics are pretty much lost on him and he's would't get close enough to use the built in braille.

Yeah, he just goes bonkers when he gets a whiff of Electra

Seriously I get the emotional entanglement that could intervene with one's fighting, but in IFs case it was really, really dumb. Even if you consider he pretty much is still a boy in his puberty since all his monk fight training probably did nothing for him to explore this and so his mental development might be behind a chunk of years, but come on. Danny Rand is a pillock.​​

artan42

angrytarg wrote: »

artan42 wrote: »

Not all men...

Daredevil's blind remeber. Visual aesthetics are pretty much lost on him and he's would't get close enough to use the built in braille.

Yeah, he just goes bonkers when he gets a whiff of Electra

Seriously I get the emotional entanglement that could intervene with one's fighting, but in IFs case it was really, really dumb. Even if you consider he pretty much is still a boy in his puberty since all his monk fight training probably did nothing for him to explore this and so his mental development might be behind a chunk of years, but come on. Danny Rand is a pillock.

Oh, no arguments there. I was half way hoping he'd fight some female mook towards the end of the show to show perhaps he's less of a pillock and had learnt his lesson, but no joy.​​