Imagine that: builds reliant on the plasma exploders lost DPS when they cut the plasma exploder damage to about 1/20th of their previous output AND removed the shield penetration...
All good . And actually good to hear back from direct testing. My estimate was based on reading the patch notes and multiplying the stated direct damage value nerf times the nerf from switching frm per shot to per cycle.
I really wonder what this is going to do to the Reciprocity meta and the madness we have currently of groups fighting for who gets shot at so they can do more damage. The tools for grabbing that aggro are still there, they just don't come with free outrageous damage procs...
I'm happy with the Embassy console correction. If you want exotic or shield ignoring damage, sacrifice something for that by focussing on it.
Sci builds also need to sacrifice a lot in order to focus on exotic and shield ignoring damage - it shouldn't be the case that an energy or regular Tac build can easily also deal a lot of exotic damage by just using some Embassy consoles that don't require many sacrifices.
If you are thinking in-universe, torpedoes require a firing solution. If you move around too much, the coordinates they set for that spread would no longer be applicable. They'd have to create a new set.
except you can activate a torp skill before enemies are even in range...no firing solution to be had. annd, even our primitive technology of this era can maintain multiple targeting solutions at one time indefinitely. this is one of those things that just doesn't make sense.
it should be a toggle that stays active until it's fired then go on cooldown with other torp abilities getting a shared cd 15secs before they can be activated. also would allow it to be toggled off in case whatever you were planning to use it on it wouldn't be effective or efficient.
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This is a nerf to those of us who "double tap" spreads or follow up spreads with HYs by prebuffing early. It's not a big deal IMO. It just removes that tactic and makes torp builds a bit easier to fly because then you don't have to time things as carefully.
I never double tab and see it as a nerf. It does the opposite and makes torpedo builds harder to fly as you have to watch your timings and time more carefully now. I have already lost damage on tribble while testing as my torpedo's fired at the wrong time causing me to lose my High Yield. Its silly how you can tell a Bridge officer to fire High Yield and he forgets by the time the torpedo is ready.
Also like the TV show I like to go prepare Torp Spread on my mark, fly into range then fire. This change stops that for no good reason.
I don't care if the Torpedo Build was nerf or not. What I care about is people working together as a team. It seems like nobody want to work together as a team. Everybody is either rushing through public queue or going Afk. When I see a person abandoning their teammate it just makes me want quit the game.
Only thing I figure it's ruining is someone who would double tap...firing their first shot just seconds before it would expire and cooldown recharges.
I had a assault cruiser that would chain high yield 3 and 2 for super epic torpedo salvo onslaught. This is no longer possible - it wasn't really "effective" mind you, but it was a lot of fun. Since this no longer works I'll definitely trash the build and do something else, mourning for my fun build
Lot of stuff I'm mourning with this update
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
Based on what I've heard so far, things will live longer in PVE. Some high-end players are seeing a more than half reduction on meta build DPS.
Imagine that: builds reliant on the plasma exploders lost DPS when they cut the plasma exploder damage to about 1/20th of their previous output AND removed the shield penetration...
Have to confess, I maintain the (unpopular) opinion that Plasma Exploders were a bad idea in the first place. They are basically tactical consoles that are placed in Sci console slots.
Anyway - looks like my two primary builds, EPG torpedo boat and Drain Boat, are going to require some reworking. Not that I particularly mind though - I honestly think that some of these changes are necessary.
While you have a point did they need to be completely nerfed into oblivion? What was wrong with the shield penetration if they only do a fraction of the damage they used to?
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
...but think of all the fun you will have doing less damage with your torpedoes.
As a fan of Destructible projectiles, this is par for the course, actually.
Word is Destructibles are noticeably faster though. Take that, normal torpedoes! Every minute or so, my Tricobalts shall speed forth to... inconvenience you... slightly...
But your Gravity Wells shall no longer inhibit this irritation!
If STO players want to be so proud of their skill, maybe the game should take some skill.
You're talking crazy...CRAZY I SAY!
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
...but think of all the fun you will have doing less damage with your torpedoes.
As a fan of Destructible projectiles, this is par for the course, actually.
Word is Destructibles are noticeably faster though. Take that, normal torpedoes! Every minute or so, my Tricobalts shall speed forth to... inconvenience you... slightly...
But your Gravity Wells shall no longer inhibit this irritation!
They should increase the speed of all torpedoes so that they have a chance at hitting a target before it gets killed by energy damage. I'm personally not a fan of gravity well not sucking destructible torpedoes up. It doesn't really make sense that it can pull, hold, and damage several ships, but can't do that to torpedoes.
As a fan of Destructible projectiles, this is par for the course, actually.
Word is Destructibles are noticeably faster though. Take that, normal torpedoes! Every minute or so, my Tricobalts shall speed forth to... inconvenience you... slightly...
Pish. Pish, I say! My old Tric Boat could regularly hit for 200K, and that was before the Mercury and NX-Refit each added their +25% Projectile Damage Consoles. With this Soon-to-be Update adding -Kinetic Resistance to skills, I am betting I could get that up to an average 350K.
...I really want to drop my Beam Boat for a Torp one again.
I don't see how this is a nerf since I usually hit the buff and then the trigger for the torpedo in that order.
Most of us fly with weapons on Auto fire for various reasons and its a nerf for us. The change also breaks the fun flow of combat and how I fly my ship making combat less fun.
Sure you'll have to adjust the timing of activating those abilities a little now and won't be able to stack them up but I think most people who used torp builds seriously managed just fine without that sort of thing anyway.
You always had to time the attack just right to avoid shield facings or other battlefield hazards. Now you'll just need to be more careful when you activate that buff.
As for having torps on autofire....well, if that's how you play then don't expect things to work perfectly for you. Torps aren't the sort of weapon you just randomly autofire in my experience, they require more precision. If you have to actually think about how to fire them now then that is only a good thing.
So:
HY/destructible torps now faster.
HY/destructible torps not affected by space hazards.
Mines now acquire targets at longer ranges.
Timing of attacks needs more careful planning.
Nothing really too bad there if you're serious about using torps.
Sure you'll have to adjust the timing of activating those abilities a little now and won't be able to stack them up but I think most people who used torp builds seriously managed just fine without that sort of thing anyway.
You always had to time the attack just right to avoid shield facings or other battlefield hazards. Now you'll just need to be more careful when you activate that buff.
As for having torps on autofire....well, if that's how you play then don't expect things to work perfectly for you. Torps aren't the sort of weapon you just randomly autofire in my experience, they require more precision. If you have to actually think about how to fire them now then that is only a good thing.
So:
HY/destructible torps now faster.
HY/destructible torps not affected by space hazards.
Mines now acquire targets at longer ranges.
Timing of attacks needs more careful planning.
Nothing really too bad there if you're serious about using torps.
I strongly disagree with that Torpedo’s have worked perfectly on auto fire for many years now. Forcing us to watch torpedo cooldowns before activating a skill is not fun and makes no sense. Having it so a bridge officer forgets to fire a torpedo spread is also silly.
The change both breaks the feel of torpedoes and stops us using torpedoes in the same way as they do in the TV show which is a bad thing. This is based on Star Trek and we should be able to use torpedo's like they do in Star Trek. So why a change all of a sudden that both takes away fun from combat and changes torpedoes away from how they work in Star Trek?
Sure you'll have to adjust the timing of activating those abilities a little now and won't be able to stack them up but I think most people who used torp builds seriously managed just fine without that sort of thing anyway.
You always had to time the attack just right to avoid shield facings or other battlefield hazards. Now you'll just need to be more careful when you activate that buff.
As for having torps on autofire....well, if that's how you play then don't expect things to work perfectly for you. Torps aren't the sort of weapon you just randomly autofire in my experience, they require more precision. If you have to actually think about how to fire them now then that is only a good thing.
So:
HY/destructible torps now faster.
HY/destructible torps not affected by space hazards.
Mines now acquire targets at longer ranges.
Timing of attacks needs more careful planning.
Nothing really too bad there if you're serious about using torps.
I strongly disagree with that Torpedo’s have worked perfectly on auto fire for many years now. Forcing us to watch torpedo cooldowns before activating a skill is not fun and makes no sense. Having it so a bridge officer forgets to fire a torpedo spread is also silly.
The change both breaks the feel of torpedoes and stops us using torpedoes in the same way as they do in the TV show which is a bad thing. This is based on Star Trek and we should be able to use torpedo's like they do in Star Trek. So why a change all of a sudden that both takes away fun from combat and changes torpedoes away from how they work in Star Trek?
So what you mean is that you'll now have to actually look at what you're doing rather than spam autofire or spacebar?
Because I saw no real change in my effectiveness as I was already shooting the things manually anyway. Actually having to be responsible for when the things launch make a lot more sense than just stacking them up on autofire. Even on the show the tac officer didn't just hit a macro and sit back with the guns on autofire did he?
I don't see how this is a nerf since I usually hit the buff and then the trigger for the torpedo in that order.
You were doing it wrong all this time
The way torpedos have always worked in STO is that they provide spike damage instead of sustained DPS.
This is based on being able to queue 2 different torpedo abilities, like HY1 and Hy2, back to back.
This senseless nerf destroys that fundamental cornerstone of torpedos, and makes them just like energy weapons, but not as good.
only one difference, that you have a 0.5 sec shared cd on torpedos with the terran console and an ability with concentrate firepower 3 to just spam them (including heavy biomolecular torps) every 2 seconds. only problem is that they are stil pretty slow and doesnt do dmg when the target is dead b4. but hey, maybe we could use the awesome hyperplasma torpedo maschine gun in that case again when they improve the flightspeed of those ^^
I admit I'm torn. As a proponent of the game offering stronger macro language as long as it's accessible to all through in-game UI, I can understand the desire to have the game feel more like "I tell my officers what to do, and they do it" rather than playing a concert piano. Mostly because so many of the button presses ARE so robotically monotonous.
On the other hand I also see why they'd want to shut down double tapping - it's another one of the things that fall under "understanding an odd behavior in the game give some players a substantial damage bonus over those who don't."
In the end I see it as an incredibly small nerf, and one probably worth embracing because it's a lot easier to explain to most players "If you want to fire a special torpedo mode, press that button, then fire your torpedo" than it is to tell them "To be playing you best you need to pre-load your torpedo effects, hover just out of combat range and let it tick down, then rush in to range in the last few seconds, fire your torps and press it again...". With the added weight of not only is that needlessly complex, it also doesn't sound a thing like the lore to me.
I don't see how this is a nerf since I usually hit the buff and then the trigger for the torpedo in that order.
You were doing it wrong all this time
The way torpedos have always worked in STO is that they provide spike damage instead of sustained DPS.
This is based on being able to queue 2 different torpedo abilities, like HY1 and Hy2, back to back.
This senseless nerf destroys that fundamental cornerstone of torpedos, and makes them just like energy weapons, but not as good.
I don't see how I'm doing it wrong using torpedoes for spike damage. I just don't use HY's like you because they're slow and easily destroyed. I use TS to get the job done since they don't get blown away easy. With these torpedo changes HY becomes more attractive again since they're faster and tougher. Hell I might even switch back to the romulan plasma torpedo launcher and go for a chain fire build if the updates are that good.
Now that, that's a great one right there. The Hot Pursuit Trait already doubled their range. Now it's going to turn Mines in to full-on Torpedo Turrets.
“So what you mean is that you'll now have to actually look at what you're doing rather than spam autofire or spacebar?”
What I am saying is I can no longer fly my ship like they do in the TV show which I could until this change. The point of a Tactical Bridge officer is so you as captain shouldn’t need to actually look at the weapon cooldowns. Our job as captain is to say prepare torpedo spread on my mark. Then after some times has passed at the right tactical moment say Mark and the Tactical officer fires. After this change the Tactical officer forgets to fire if more than 10 seconds have passed which is just a silly change.
I always found it fun to prepare my skills at range, fly in at full impulse then go mark and have the Tactical officer fire the commands I told him to prepare. It’s fun and just like what they do in the TV show. Now when I do this the officer forgets my command and sits there doing nothing.
No other weapon system requires you to watch the weapon cooldown and switch off auto fire just so you can use a bridge officer power.
“Even on the show the tac officer didn't just hit a macro and sit back with the guns on autofire did he?”
Yes they did lots of the time. They would program a pattern in activate it but not fire until the captain said mark. The tac captain didn’t sit there tapping fire, over and over again. I don't recall the captain asking for a torpedo spread and the tac officer forgetting 10 seconds.
I'm happy with the Embassy console correction. If you want exotic or shield ignoring damage, sacrifice something for that by focussing on it.
Sci builds also need to sacrifice a lot in order to focus on exotic and shield ignoring damage - it shouldn't be the case that an energy or regular Tac build can easily also deal a lot of exotic damage by just using some Embassy consoles that don't require many sacrifices.
The flaw in your logic is that the plasma damage depended upon EPG skill, so a Tac captain didn't get nearly the damage seen by a Sci captain with 400+ EPG skill.
Personally, my Sci captains moved along from Embassy consoles to Research Lab consoles as soon as my Fleet had our Lab high enough to buy them, but I do remember it well.
I'm happy with the Embassy console correction. If you want exotic or shield ignoring damage, sacrifice something for that by focussing on it.
Sci builds also need to sacrifice a lot in order to focus on exotic and shield ignoring damage - it shouldn't be the case that an energy or regular Tac build can easily also deal a lot of exotic damage by just using some Embassy consoles that don't require many sacrifices.
The flaw in your logic is that the plasma damage depended upon EPG skill, so a Tac captain didn't get nearly the damage seen by a Sci captain with 400+ EPG skill.
Are you referring to the Embassy Console explosions? Those do not scale with EPG, and Tacs have been seeing higher damage from it in the live server because +all damage boosts affect them.
Comments
LOL sorry, long day.. and I lack sleep! XD
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All good
I really wonder what this is going to do to the Reciprocity meta and the madness we have currently of groups fighting for who gets shot at so they can do more damage. The tools for grabbing that aggro are still there, they just don't come with free outrageous damage procs...
Sci builds also need to sacrifice a lot in order to focus on exotic and shield ignoring damage - it shouldn't be the case that an energy or regular Tac build can easily also deal a lot of exotic damage by just using some Embassy consoles that don't require many sacrifices.
except you can activate a torp skill before enemies are even in range...no firing solution to be had. annd, even our primitive technology of this era can maintain multiple targeting solutions at one time indefinitely. this is one of those things that just doesn't make sense.
it should be a toggle that stays active until it's fired then go on cooldown with other torp abilities getting a shared cd 15secs before they can be activated. also would allow it to be toggled off in case whatever you were planning to use it on it wouldn't be effective or efficient.
Donate Brains, zombies in Washington DC are starving.
Also like the TV show I like to go prepare Torp Spread on my mark, fly into range then fire. This change stops that for no good reason.
Lot of stuff I'm mourning with this update
While you have a point did they need to be completely nerfed into oblivion? What was wrong with the shield penetration if they only do a fraction of the damage they used to?
...but think of all the fun you will have doing less damage with your torpedoes.
Word is Destructibles are noticeably faster though. Take that, normal torpedoes! Every minute or so, my Tricobalts shall speed forth to... inconvenience you... slightly...
But your Gravity Wells shall no longer inhibit this irritation!
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
They should increase the speed of all torpedoes so that they have a chance at hitting a target before it gets killed by energy damage. I'm personally not a fan of gravity well not sucking destructible torpedoes up. It doesn't really make sense that it can pull, hold, and damage several ships, but can't do that to torpedoes.
Pish. Pish, I say! My old Tric Boat could regularly hit for 200K, and that was before the Mercury and NX-Refit each added their +25% Projectile Damage Consoles. With this Soon-to-be Update adding -Kinetic Resistance to skills, I am betting I could get that up to an average 350K.
...I really want to drop my Beam Boat for a Torp one again.
Sure you'll have to adjust the timing of activating those abilities a little now and won't be able to stack them up but I think most people who used torp builds seriously managed just fine without that sort of thing anyway.
You always had to time the attack just right to avoid shield facings or other battlefield hazards. Now you'll just need to be more careful when you activate that buff.
As for having torps on autofire....well, if that's how you play then don't expect things to work perfectly for you. Torps aren't the sort of weapon you just randomly autofire in my experience, they require more precision. If you have to actually think about how to fire them now then that is only a good thing.
So:
Nothing really too bad there if you're serious about using torps.
The change both breaks the feel of torpedoes and stops us using torpedoes in the same way as they do in the TV show which is a bad thing. This is based on Star Trek and we should be able to use torpedo's like they do in Star Trek. So why a change all of a sudden that both takes away fun from combat and changes torpedoes away from how they work in Star Trek?
So what you mean is that you'll now have to actually look at what you're doing rather than spam autofire or spacebar?
Because I saw no real change in my effectiveness as I was already shooting the things manually anyway. Actually having to be responsible for when the things launch make a lot more sense than just stacking them up on autofire. Even on the show the tac officer didn't just hit a macro and sit back with the guns on autofire did he?
only one difference, that you have a 0.5 sec shared cd on torpedos with the terran console and an ability with concentrate firepower 3 to just spam them (including heavy biomolecular torps) every 2 seconds. only problem is that they are stil pretty slow and doesnt do dmg when the target is dead b4. but hey, maybe we could use the awesome hyperplasma torpedo maschine gun in that case again when they improve the flightspeed of those ^^
ingame: @Felisean
On the other hand I also see why they'd want to shut down double tapping - it's another one of the things that fall under "understanding an odd behavior in the game give some players a substantial damage bonus over those who don't."
In the end I see it as an incredibly small nerf, and one probably worth embracing because it's a lot easier to explain to most players "If you want to fire a special torpedo mode, press that button, then fire your torpedo" than it is to tell them "To be playing you best you need to pre-load your torpedo effects, hover just out of combat range and let it tick down, then rush in to range in the last few seconds, fire your torps and press it again...". With the added weight of not only is that needlessly complex, it also doesn't sound a thing like the lore to me.
I don't see how I'm doing it wrong using torpedoes for spike damage. I just don't use HY's like you because they're slow and easily destroyed. I use TS to get the job done since they don't get blown away easy. With these torpedo changes HY becomes more attractive again since they're faster and tougher. Hell I might even switch back to the romulan plasma torpedo launcher and go for a chain fire build if the updates are that good.
I like your thinking!
Now that, that's a great one right there. The Hot Pursuit Trait already doubled their range. Now it's going to turn Mines in to full-on Torpedo Turrets.
I always found it fun to prepare my skills at range, fly in at full impulse then go mark and have the Tactical officer fire the commands I told him to prepare. It’s fun and just like what they do in the TV show. Now when I do this the officer forgets my command and sits there doing nothing.
No other weapon system requires you to watch the weapon cooldown and switch off auto fire just so you can use a bridge officer power.
Yes they did lots of the time. They would program a pattern in activate it but not fire until the captain said mark. The tac captain didn’t sit there tapping fire, over and over again. I don't recall the captain asking for a torpedo spread and the tac officer forgetting 10 seconds.
The flaw in your logic is that the plasma damage depended upon EPG skill, so a Tac captain didn't get nearly the damage seen by a Sci captain with 400+ EPG skill.
Personally, my Sci captains moved along from Embassy consoles to Research Lab consoles as soon as my Fleet had our Lab high enough to buy them, but I do remember it well.
Are you referring to the Embassy Console explosions? Those do not scale with EPG, and Tacs have been seeing higher damage from it in the live server because +all damage boosts affect them.
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