Ammended: Any reason as to why there are undocumented torpedo nerfs?

darkknightucf

Thanks to the Aggronauts/Redditors Jayiie and Zooey for testing.

I know it's a game, so when I speak about this, it's within the scope of the game itself.

Tested the following:

1. TriCobalt mods - (from prior video and this one, all appear to be working. Awaiting Jayiie's analysis on DMG and Pen) *NOTE*: TriCobalt's still do not receive the cd reset benefit via Concentrate Firepower, despite the animation showing that a HY1 is available to be fired.

2. Distributed Targeting - Not working with Heavies/destructibles EXCEPT for Elachi Subspace

3. Omega Kinetic Shearing - Numbers gathered. Pending analysis for interaction with heavies and with/without DT

4. NX Torpedo console - By request to show some funny interaction with target(s). Reference this link for test parameters and initial results.

Why are there undocumented changes to Enhanced Bio-Molecular and Gravimetric Photon torpedo under high yield? ***Both have received a reduction to their blast radius and both have a target cap to them.*** CLARIFICATION: Target cap on EBM set to 10. Blast radius at 2.5km (down from 3). Will conduct more tests for Gravimetric to confirm what was initially seen in video (nerfed blast radius of torpedo, NOT rift radius)

It would be one thing if torpedoes, especially those two torpedoes, were overperforming to the point where they were destroying FaW builds or CSV builds everywhere, and another *IF* there was a performance issue with them (for the record, there wasn't), so why yet another nerf to torpedoes?

Logs of the testing done
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0jlAmLwIV46U190T0dKRGtRZDg

Video of testing, as well as outline of what was being tested:
https://youtu.be/LTycNT8hJw0

EDIT: In the video, I moused over the rift size (1km), and stated INCORRECTLY that it was displaying 1km blast radius. My apologies for the incorrect statement. In the video, Zooey was within 2.5km from Jayiie, yet did not receive any damage from the Gravimetric HY3 explosion.

I will have to look at the vid again, but I think that Zooey was within 2km. from Jayiie.

nikeix

Its interesting you can speak with such authority on system performance and play performance. I particularly like how you slipped in there that FAW builds should be consider a baseline. It's eerily like I was just talking about BFAW being used as the fulcrum for all manner of power spiral arguments...

I'm all for patch notes. If something changed it should be documented. But I don't usually find its necessary or even helpful to justify them on every occasion.

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warmaker001b

The blast radius of BM Torp in high yield was IMO, the highlight of that weapon. A cap now? That's a garbage weapon now.

dracounguis

Well, we all know all torps were OP, they needed a nerf!

meimeitoo

Thanks, darkknightucf, for bringing this to our attention!

As for you, Cryptic, you're starting to damage my calm! Grrr. No, seriously, just Upgraded my Enhanced Bio-Molecular Torp and Turret (with key-ring tokens), so as to finally be able to have that set on my Rom alt too; and now you're sneakily nerfing them!? Again, grrrr!

pottsey5g

Gravimetric Photon torpedo under high yield also had a nerf to the time the grav field lasts. Our equipment and skills used to extend the time the grav field lasted for. Now skills and equipment have zero impact on it. The nerf/bug hit me hard because I had a build around high yields from Con Firepower with control expertise pushed as high as I could to make long lasting grav wells from the torp. The only item on my ship that used control expertise was that torpedo. Ruined build now

EDIT: I assume this hasn't been fixed. Not tried it in the latest patch.

discojer

Honestly, they need to revamp the combat system so it makes sense to use both beams and torpedoes, you know, like every single show & movie, as opposed to just one.

leemwatson

discojer wrote: »

Honestly, they need to revamp the combat system so it makes sense to use both beams and torpedoes, you know, like every single show & movie, as opposed to just one.

They really should have Torp and Energy Weapon Hardpoints (plus more 'canon' arcs and hardpoints) seperate.

nimbull

discojer wrote: »

Honestly, they need to revamp the combat system so it makes sense to use both beams and torpedoes, you know, like every single show & movie, as opposed to just one.

I can actually do that with the Nausican torpedo from the first lukari mission. It runs off of disruptor damage consoles instead of torpedo consoles. Feels like I'm actually doing the beam/torp mix effectively. If you got the crystaline torpedo you can do the same with anti proton damage. My disruptor engie and AP romulan are quite happy with these.

Best of all, no feed back pulses from pesky science ships on the torp damage.

nikeix

Super Charged Weapons starship trait and one KT photon torpedo: all the reason I'll ever need to run hybrid builds .

There are actually three energy torpedoes. Plasma has one too. With a wonderfully vicious proc...

nimbull

nikeix wrote: »

Super Charged Weapons starship trait and one KT photon torpedo: all the reason I'll ever need to run hybrid builds .

There are actually three energy torpedoes. Plasma has one too. With a wonderfully vicious proc...

Which torpedo is the plasma one? I've not seen it listed in the STO wiki like the AP and Disruptor torpedoes.

Edit: Nevermind, it's listed under plasma torpedoes instead of "Other" like the AP and Disruptor torps. Plasmatic Biomatter Torpedo.

neos472

nimbull wrote: »

nikeix wrote: »

Super Charged Weapons starship trait and one KT photon torpedo: all the reason I'll ever need to run hybrid builds .

There are actually three energy torpedoes. Plasma has one too. With a wonderfully vicious proc...

Which torpedo is the plasma one? I've not seen it listed in the STO wiki like the AP and Disruptor torpedoes.

Edit: Nevermind, it's listed under plasma torpedoes instead of "Other" like the AP and Disruptor torps. Plasmatic Biomatter Torpedo.

the plasmatic is not the right one what Nikeix is referring to is the Particle Emissions Plasma Torpedo which is downright monsterous when a proper sci ship has one

legendarylycan

the PEP is not an energy torpedo; the plasmatic biomatter is, as mentioned in its description on the wiki

so he had it right​​

neos472

ah my bad thanks for clairifying

crypticspartan

darkknightucf wrote: »

Why are there undocumented changes to Enhanced Bio-Molecular and Gravimetric Photon torpedo under high yield? ***Both have received a reduction to their blast radius and both have a target cap to them.*** CLARIFICATION: Target cap on EBM set to 10. Blast radius at 2.5km (down from 3). Will conduct more tests for Gravimetric to confirm what was initially seen in video (nerfed blast radius of torpedo, NOT rift radius)

You are mistaken in this. From its initial creation, the Enhanced Bio-Molecular Torpedo's High Yield has had a target limit of 10 and a radius of 2.5km. The Gravimetric Photon Torpedo's High Yield has always had a target limit of 10, and has always had a range of 2km.

In fact, all torpedoes that explode in an AoE (including the above two) have had a default target limit of 10 since before the game entered its closed Beta.

darkknightucf wrote: »

2. Distributed Targeting - Not working with Heavies/destructibles EXCEPT for Elachi Subspace

That is a bug that will be fixed shortly.

lianthelia

reyan01 wrote: »

The attitude toward torpedoes in this game remains one of the my few pet hates about it. Torpedoes were Trek's real heavy-hitter weapons but this game insists on keeping torpedoes in a 'second rate' position and allowing players to worship at the temple of BFAW. It's pathetic.

Yup...I love torps...so I basically have to accept my play style is weak because the devs either have some irrational hatred of torps or they just aren't able to balance them (Which wouldn't shock me at all)

davefenestrator

I've been watching DS9 again from start to finish, and the Defiant has used Quantums to take out other ships without needing to spend a minute stripping shields with Phasers first. One good hit, one exploded Jem'Hadar attack ship.

Shields should not negate torpedo damage the way they do now, especially where 1% shields cause as much damage to be thrown away (even to the shields themselves) as 100% shields.

nikeix

I'm pretty sure they've said (over and over) that 1% shields does NOT cause 75% of the entire attack to be mitigated.

nikeix

meimeitoo wrote: »

Thanks, darkknightucf, for bringing this to our attention!

Even if they were completely full of TRIBBLE?

As for you, Cryptic, you're starting to damage my calm! Grrr. No, seriously, just Upgraded my Enhanced Bio-Molecular Torp and Turret (with key-ring tokens), so as to finally be able to have that set on my Rom alt too; and now you're sneakily nerfing them!? Again, grrrr!

You might not want your calm to hinge on hearing unsubstantiated rumors.

kyle223cat

I'm in the minority here, but I feel like shields have already been nerfed enough (most of the time indirectly). Remember how powerful shields were about 3 years ago? There are so many ways to either insta-drain or completely bypass shields now, nerfing them even more will make shields even more useless.

crypticspartan

davefenestrator wrote: »

Shields should not negate torpedo damage the way they do now, especially where 1% shields cause as much damage to be thrown away (even to the shields themselves) as 100% shields.

To reference myself from a thread a few days ago

crypticspartan#0627 wrote: »

Shield Resistance stacks multiplicatively up to a hardcap of 75%. There are some mechanics that reduce damage to shields that are outside of the Shield Resistance cap, but none of these are activatable buffs that players can use to my knowledge. Resilient Shields' "5% Absorption" means that your shields reduce all energy damage they take by 5%; this is not shield resistance, this is a separate reduction that occurs. Some NPC's, notably the Tzenkethi, use a similar mechanic. The 75% reduction of kinetic and physical damage to shields is similarly an independent multiplier.

What that additionally means, that seems to be unclear, is that the shield mechanic where shields take 75% reduced physical and kinetic damage only affects damage that goes to your shields. If you fire a torpedo at a target that would do 1000 damage if it hit bare hull with no resistances, and your attack has 50% bleedthrough, 500 damage will hit the target's hull and is only affected by the target's hull resistance, and the 500 that goes to the target's shields is then affected by only the 75% reduction and the target's shield resistance. If a target has one shield hitpoint, that does not reduce the kinetic damage you do to that target's hull by 75%.

nikeix

Suppose a target has 10 shield points, 5% absorption and 5% bleed through (typical Resilient shield). I hit it with a 1,000 kinetic damage torpedo. No other shield penetration effects, so 75% kinetic damage to the shield is mitigated. The absorption doesn't matter, because it mitigates only energy damage (which this is not).

My understanding is 40 damage points will be expended in a 4:1 burn down against the last of the shield and 960 points are going to reach the hull - through a combination of bleed through (50 points) and direct application after the shield is gone (910 points after depleating the 10 points of shield).

I may be crazy, but that's how I thought it works.

crypticspartan

nikeix wrote: »

Suppose a target has 10 shield points, 5% absorption and 5% bleed through (typical Resilient shield). I hit it with a 1,000 kinetic damage torpedo. No other shield penetration effects, so 75% kinetic damage to the shield is mitigated. The absorption doesn't matter, because it mitigates only energy damage (which this is not).

My understanding is 40 damage points will be expended in a 4:1 burn down against the last of the shield and 960 points are going to reach the hull - through a combination of bleed through (50 points) and direct application after the shield is gone (910 points after depleating the 10 points of shield).

I may be crazy, but that's how I thought it works.

If the target has 0% shield resistance, that above example is correct.

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nikeix

repetitiveepic wrote: »

Hey why did you make the Lukari torpedo targetable anyway? Targetable torpedoes are useless junk and make the torps incompatible with THY, I was really psyched at the possibility of a second enhanced bio-M type torp.

Gee, wouldn't it be better to fix the reason targetable torpedoes are "useless junk" *coughBFAWcough* instead of abandoning a cool, lore appropriate and flavorful mechanic? Cause I'm telling ya, BFAW needs a -20% accuracy against small targets (fighters, shuttles, mines, destructable torpedoes) penalty. Badly.

Also torps desperately need some kind of across-the-board buffing

Mostly I'd like them to be a little faster. Having my Plasmatic Biomatter Torpedoes be unable to chase down even a snail IS really annoying . I often end up with 2 of them drifting lazily around the map trying to find something to hit while my beams are cheerfully whittling down the candidate list...

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nikeix

THY?
Oh. Torpedo High Yield.

lucho80

nikeix wrote: »

Suppose a target has 10 shield points, 5% absorption and 5% bleed through (typical Resilient shield). I hit it with a 1,000 kinetic damage torpedo. No other shield penetration effects, so 75% kinetic damage to the shield is mitigated. The absorption doesn't matter, because it mitigates only energy damage (which this is not).

My understanding is 40 damage points will be expended in a 4:1 burn down against the last of the shield and 960 points are going to reach the hull - through a combination of bleed through (50 points) and direct application after the shield is gone (910 points after depleating the 10 points of shield).

I may be crazy, but that's how I thought it works.

Use a quantum phase TS3 with super high drain and the 2-piece bonus. Shields won't be an issue, lol.

meimeitoo

nikeix wrote: »

meimeitoo wrote: »

Thanks, darkknightucf, for bringing this to our attention!

Even if they were completely full of ****?

darkknightucf is considered STO's resident torp expert par excellence. When he speaks out on torps, I listen.

davefenestrator

crypticspartan#0627 wrote: »

davefenestrator wrote: »

Shields should not negate torpedo damage the way they do now, especially where 1% shields cause as much damage to be thrown away (even to the shields themselves) as 100% shields.

To reference myself from a thread a few days ago

crypticspartan#0627 wrote: »

Shield Resistance stacks multiplicatively up to a hardcap of 75%. There are some mechanics that reduce damage to shields that are outside of the Shield Resistance cap, but none of these are activatable buffs that players can use to my knowledge. Resilient Shields' "5% Absorption" means that your shields reduce all energy damage they take by 5%; this is not shield resistance, this is a separate reduction that occurs. Some NPC's, notably the Tzenkethi, use a similar mechanic. The 75% reduction of kinetic and physical damage to shields is similarly an independent multiplier.

What that additionally means, that seems to be unclear, is that the shield mechanic where shields take 75% reduced physical and kinetic damage only affects damage that goes to your shields. If you fire a torpedo at a target that would do 1000 damage if it hit bare hull with no resistances, and your attack has 50% bleedthrough, 500 damage will hit the target's hull and is only affected by the target's hull resistance, and the 500 that goes to the target's shields is then affected by only the 75% reduction and the target's shield resistance. If a target has one shield hitpoint, that does not reduce the kinetic damage you do to that target's hull by 75%.

Thanks! Does kinetic bleedthrough approach 100% as shield points drop to 0% for a generic shield, or does something else like shield power level setting come into play to set some minimum % as long as there is still 1 point of shields left?