rome doesn't have any counter to mordor's sorcery, though - especially the immortal nazgul
they can deal with the orcs, catapults, trolls and mumakil just fine (despite what some may think), but the ringwraiths are pretty much unstoppable - kill one and it will reform in short order and resume tearing apart an army soldier by soldier
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
If only one side has magic, that side will win. Otherwise there will be some differences between the cinematic Mordor, and the literary one, but this is what I think ...
Cinematically;
Without magic, all that Mordor has is lots of poorly disciplined troops and some big animals, both of which the historical Legions had methods for dealing with. The Orc infantry are all skirmish troops as far as can be seen, the archers are sub par and scattered, their polearm troops very irregular in both discipline, and kit. This leaves them with a lack of strong defensive formations beyond their own raw numbers, and the cavalry (big animals) as the only useful shock arm.
Historically the only cavalry I know of that did very well against the Legions was that of the Parthians. The Parthians owe much to the Scythians before them. The Scythians could be considered the people who wrote the book on how to humiliate an invading empire. The Persians got to read the first printing of it. Anyway ...
Elephants and wolves, even big ones, are likely similar enough to the beasts used by their enemies to warrant application of the same basic tactics that worked many times before. In my opinion, trolls count as magic, but if we allow them to be included as non-magical then I would place them in the animal category, closer to an elephant for threat level.
The West had Rohan's cavalry, ridiculously outnumbered but with almost equally ridiculous morale. They had a courageous leader, one who leads by example, and they had no choice but to die with full honor today, or live a while longer with less. If you put Roman Legions into that predicament, and I'd say especially the 'Marian Legions' you would see the same relentlessness, the same devotion to honor and duty that made it impossible for Rohan to turn back from what on screen looks like over half a million troops. The 'Marian' killing machine would break the enemy ranks despite that. Orcs have no honor.
Insert magic; If both sides get to use what was theirs in the story, I still vote for the Legions. Gaius Julius Caesar rides through the paths of the dead (legend modified to fit Romans in place of Númenoreans) The dead legions from the past rise to join the battle, and there you go. In the films it can be argued that Rohan had achieved the victory, and the undead made it a curb stomp after they arrived.
Literally;
Sauron knew Orcs were garbage troops, so he made deep alliances with rulers from the east, and the south including the King of Harad who had a real army. The Easterlings and Wain riders that were to a large degree missing from the movies, would have been better disciplined and provided an increased number of shock troops for Mordor to field, and possibly a significant number of horse archers to counter Rohan's advantage in that category. This might have lead to a case where the Roman General has to hold up in the city rather than break the foe in the open. That leaves the outcome far less certain, unless we have undead troops coming to help the Romans out.
Magic is the same as before, except that the defense at Minas Tirith benefits much more from the undead troops.
Long term;
If the One Ring isn't destroyed it doesn't matter who wins on the battlefield ...
You put the Roman Legion at the Battle of Pelennor Fields, end of the Ring War. Mordor would lose the war becuase they would lose almost everything killing the Roman Legion. Hell, there might not be a battle at Pelennor Fields because the Romans would not have left Osgiliath, especally the way the movie depicted it. Oh, there would not be an incompetent fool leading the Romans either. Sauron would have had to come out and do battle himself to win against that Legion at Osgiliath.
Ancient Griffon insult
That one is so stupid, he lost a Rock/Paper/Scissors game to a Pony.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
You put the Roman Legion at the Battle of Pelennor Fields, end of the Ring War. Mordor would lose the war becuase they would lose almost everything killing the Roman Legion. Hell, there might not be a battle at Pelennor Fields because the Romans would not have left Osgiliath, especally the way the movie depicted it. Oh, there would not be an incompetent fool leading the Romans either. Sauron would have had to come out and do battle himself to win against that Legion at Osgiliath.
You are right. The battle at Pelennor Fields the single most lopsided battle as far as number go, that I think I have ever seen on film. '300' comes close though.
I suppose with the right magic the orcs could be made to swarm like ants, or zombies in WWZ, but there was nothing like that on film, at least in my opinion.
I have a sneaking affection for Scythians and the historical middle finger they delivered to the Persian invasion. My favorite scene in the movie may well be the charge of Rohan. It's fun to imagine the alternate realities though. Leonidas and the Spartans?
I wonder if there is a computer game with mods for this exact thing?
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Oh great. It's the Borg vs. the Empire again where the clearly superior side with a massive advantage in age, technology, and skill is somehow beaten out by bad logic by fans of the Romans/Borg.
If we're going by Pelennor Fields the Orcs massively outnumber any Roman army ever fielded. It showed siege engines that would level Sterling Castle, never mind a little Roman fort. It showed Mûmakil and Trolls that would be able to deal with the Romans all by themselves. As you've forgotten that they were panicked and routed in the film and still decimated the riders and were only stopped by the Army of the Dead (in the film anyway).
Then there's Mordor's allies whom I'd assume would be showing up as Mûmakil were mentioned in the first place.
The Romans will not be getting Gandalf or Eagles nor will Gondor or Rohan come to Rome's aid for the same reason the Federation and Rebellion are uninvolved in the extermination of the Borg by the Empire, or the Borg by the Cybermen. It's a challenge between Mordor and Rome.
Romans did not do well against armies who were as trained and disciplined as them which the Orcs clearly are. In any engagement (most clearly seen in the films but also in the books) the Orcs stop being shambolic and form clear battle lines, with archery blocks, pikes, calverley, siege weapons, explosives, runners. In short all the advantages of the Romans and more, because, again, the Orcs are a mix of late medieval and WWI style tactics and technology and the Romans are... Roman era in the same.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
I know historic military afficionados like to mindwank all about the imperial roman army, but stating they could beat magic, fantastic creatures? Come on
Even if we substract the supernatural, Mordor had the technology advantage as @artan42 pointed out, albeit the far leap only comes with the cinematic version, the lieral Middle Earth uses technology akin to the dark ages for the most part, no plates or crossbows and the like. But still, even if you reduce Mordor to "barbarians" you know that Rome had a hard time with those, especially when they were not fighting on their home turf.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
rome only had trouble with barbarians once it started crumbling from the inside - for thousands of years before that, they had barely any issue with any army they faced
though, they somehow had trouble dealing with a rag-tag band of ex-slaves for a while
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
While Mordor's army had some seasoned troops, you never saw them rotate in the units, like Romans did. Goblins and Orcs would only be a problem because of thier numbers, but ask Boudica about numbers against a defending Roman force. Trolls will be a problem but its not the gamechanger. The ringwraiths are the gamechanger but becuase the Romans have no way to counteract immortal flying warriors. Trolls and Oliphants could be treated as war elephants, but the ringwraiths..yeah. But to think a Roman Legion would be curbstomped, this is not Teutoburg Forest.
Ancient Griffon insult
That one is so stupid, he lost a Rock/Paper/Scissors game to a Pony.
(...)Trolls and Oliphants could be treated as war elephants, but the ringwraiths..yeah. But to think a Roman Legion would be curbstomped, this is not Teutoburg Forest.
Oliphants are the size of a building. They are not elephants. They would walk straight through the legion without so much as break a sweat, and not just because they probably don't have sweat glands
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Weapons are mechanical technology. The pointy end goes into the other fellow ... that is the same technology whether used by Rome, or the troops styled after the Dark Ages.
Consider also that organization is social technology, and it was something the Romans excelled at. Also, this;
So without the organization rifles and artillery lose pretty much to pointy sticks. The tech that really matters is the tech that is used to greater effect. After the Zulu had all those captured rifles (1000, plus 400k rounds of ammo) they went after some more Brits who were better organized;
Morale and leadership matter. Orcs are overconfident and irregular troops who will falter and break when hit by more disciplined troops, Even if those troops are using what appears to be 10th century gear. Note that the orcs are beginning to break even before contact with the enemy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFisc4LAwIs
@angrytarg I pretty much say in my first post, first line, that if only one side has magic, that side will win. I think we agree it is to much of an advantage.
Now as the markhawkman pointed out, we are comparing fiction to fact. In the end it is even less provable then the 'ninja vs pirate' sort of argument. At least they existed.
In that spirit I will probably decline to say much more about this, and instead sit back and watch. It is a fun topic.
Conventional warfare, Rome takes it. Add fantasy in the mix Mordor takes it
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
rome only had trouble with barbarians once it started crumbling from the inside - for thousands of years before that, they had barely any issue with any army they faced
though, they somehow had trouble dealing with a rag-tag band of ex-slaves for a while
Rome actually had a technological edge on most of it's enemies. Half their enemies didn't bother with combat drills or armor....
But that doesn't really work here. The armies of Mordor may not have better tech, but what they do have is more powerful all the same. Orcs are not disciplined warriors. But they do have the strength to take a dull blade and force it through gothic plate armor or shatter a Roman shield.
Sure the Romans could do something about that, but.... one on one it's not a fair fight, and Roman formation tactics aren't designed to fight enemies like that.
Also, Wraiths and dragons like Smaug the Golden or Ancalagon the Black would pretty much just annihilate a legion. Which is what I was getting at earlier, adding characters from Roman mythology on the roman side, like Hercules for example.
Roman gods do not exist, Orcish ones do and their magic is a reality in that world.
There's three main engagements in LotR that come to mind, the Siege of Erebor, the Siege of the Hornburg, and the Siege of Minas Tirith/Battle of the Pelennor Fields. All three involve Orcish armies and auxiliaries (Goblins, Wargs etc.), orcs attacking in waves, clear battle lines, in short, everything the Romans had.
Unless somebody is going to define a actual situation, let's just go with the Orcs are encamped in Barad-dûr and under siege by the Romans. What advantage do the Romans have here?
Excluding the Fellowship Romana having the ring or something stupid like that. It's Romans Vs. Mordor's armies, not Romans vs. Sauron.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
the battle of helm's deep (and it IS helm's deep, not that hornburg nonsense) did NOT involve mordor in any way; isengard was a completely separate faction altogether - unlike the easterlings and southrons which were blended into mordor's army
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
isengard was a completely separate faction altogether - unlike the easterlings and southrons which were blended into mordor's army
This is completely true, the movies didn't show it very well but Saruman's intention all along was to take the One Ring for himself and use it to overthrow Sauron.
This does not, however, diminish the clear advantage Mordor has over Rome thanks to the trolls, oliphaunts, and Nazgûl. Let's get specific, if the Roman capital was under siege by the full might of Mordor, how could they repel the assault?
Roman gods do not exist, Orcish ones do and their magic is a reality in that world.
Which is why it's an inherently unfair scenario and why I proposed to use a more interesting version of Rome. Also... you're actually kinda changing the scenario. The OP does not actually specify that it is in fact real-world Romans.
isengard was a completely separate faction altogether - unlike the easterlings and southrons which were blended into mordor's army
This is completely true, the movies didn't show it very well but Saruman's intention all along was to take the One Ring for himself and use it to overthrow Sauron.
This does not, however, diminish the clear advantage Mordor has over Rome thanks to the trolls, oliphaunts, and Nazgûl. Let's get specific, if the Roman capital was under siege by the full might of Mordor, how could they repel the assault?
By invoking physics.
If that army had to fight under our natural laws then all the big beasties would break bones when they moved. Nazgul would only frighten children, pretty much like any other 'ghost'. All those impossibly large siege engines ... well they are impossibly large. Orcs would be rife with serious birth defects and genetic disorders, and that is even if you accept their 'origin', as fantastic as it is, and if that too is taken away then the light of reason burns away the whole army.
The problem with many (not all) posts here is that they seem to pick a side and cherry pick the context to favor that side winning. It makes sense that a war in Arda means magic is available to both sides within reason, with the implication of Rome being of that world would mean that Romans would possess the perks of belonging there.
If Orcs were somehow a natural creature on Earth, then their mysticism would be limited to the same effectiveness as other cultures have experienced (not dissing your faith anyone) That would most likely mean that Sauron was a guy, his Nazgul were guys, and his outlandish pets were just normal animals getting by on reputation. Saruman himself might be a great engineer, and philosopher, and a 'close personal friend of' Sauron, but he would still be just one guy. So far none of this says 'Rome gets curbstomped' to me.
Taking the specific example above (Roman Capital) can't be done without addressing all the possible assumptions, and coming to an agreement as to which ones will be allowed to stick. No disrespect to the question asked, but to answer it we would all need to agree what the rules were. Much would depend on what era of Legion history you are working with.
artan42 asked about "the Orcs are encamped in Barad-dûr and under siege by the Romans". We need more context for this. On it's face, Rome never met a structure that it couldn't out-engineer, so what makes this time different? It all depends on you, the reader, and how you have shuffled the deck in your own mind.
Where/when does magic get counted, and for who? How much suspension of disbelief do we give each side, and why? Which tech is to be considered artistic license, and which tech will be taken at face value? How do you assess true quality over the mere ability to stand in neat groups for awhile?
That is a lot of slop to sift through, especially since we seem to be using chopsticks here.
I will stick with my earlier posts for general purposes.
if anyone wants to sort out the 'rules of engagement' so we can have a more serious comparison of different situations, I'd chime in as I can.
My positions starting out are, #1 that magic is or isn't there for both sides, #2 that either everyone gets their Gandalfs and Shelobs, or nobody does, #3 is that Rome doesn't show up to the fight with no intel, and that there has been a prior history of Romes involvement in the war. That is a start.
What do you say? Do we agree on creating some parameters first? Or just keep chasing our tales?
the battle of helm's deep (and it IS helm's deep, not that hornburg nonsense) did NOT involve mordor in any way; isengard was a completely separate faction altogether - unlike the easterlings and southrons which were blended into mordor's army
I was referring to the film version so it's the fortress itself that's under siege and there's no battles in the valley itself except for a brief cavalry charge followed by the Orcs retreating.
I gave that example, despite being aware of the stipulation of 'Mordor's armies' as there were Mordor Orcs that worked with Saruman initially but mainly to show an example of Orcs using tactics.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
the battle of helm's deep (and it IS helm's deep, not that hornburg nonsense) did NOT involve mordor in any way; isengard was a completely separate faction altogether - unlike the easterlings and southrons which were blended into mordor's army
I was referring to the film version so it's the fortress itself that's under siege and there's no battles in the valley itself except for a brief cavalry charge followed by the Orcs retreating.
I gave that example, despite being aware of the stipulation of 'Mordor's armies' as there were Mordor Orcs that worked with Saruman initially but mainly to show an example of Orcs using tactics.
Uruk Hai.
Saruman's were the most elite version having the most uniform and quality gear, and being better trained, and lead.
I'd call them the best of the worst of the worst.
Still if any orcs were capable of any real discipline, it would be those.
As cool and as faithful as the movies were, they still played around a lot and not all of it was good. (still boycotting the Hobbit pt. 2 and 3 to this day)
(...)
As cool and as faithful as the movies were, they still played around a lot and not all of it was good. (still boycotting the Hobbit pt. 2 and 3 to this day)
Qapla!
You're missing out, though. Coolest Dwarven army ever shown on screen The "not true to the source" argument doesn't count in my book (ha!) since none of the movies were actually faithful (I'm wondering why you'd say that). Middle Earth doesn't even know the crossbow, not to speak of high medieval armour or hulking Uruk Hai. The movieverse and the bookverse are just two separate entities, like the Marvel CU and the ... uh... CU (CBU?) Aside fromt he fact that Dwarves were never explored by Tolkien to the extend of recreating an actual functioning army from it. And Ibex cavalry - could it be more awesome? Yeah, it could - hog mounts
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Comments
they can deal with the orcs, catapults, trolls and mumakil just fine (despite what some may think), but the ringwraiths are pretty much unstoppable - kill one and it will reform in short order and resume tearing apart an army soldier by soldier
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Cinematically;
Without magic, all that Mordor has is lots of poorly disciplined troops and some big animals, both of which the historical Legions had methods for dealing with. The Orc infantry are all skirmish troops as far as can be seen, the archers are sub par and scattered, their polearm troops very irregular in both discipline, and kit. This leaves them with a lack of strong defensive formations beyond their own raw numbers, and the cavalry (big animals) as the only useful shock arm.
Historically the only cavalry I know of that did very well against the Legions was that of the Parthians. The Parthians owe much to the Scythians before them. The Scythians could be considered the people who wrote the book on how to humiliate an invading empire. The Persians got to read the first printing of it. Anyway ...
Elephants and wolves, even big ones, are likely similar enough to the beasts used by their enemies to warrant application of the same basic tactics that worked many times before. In my opinion, trolls count as magic, but if we allow them to be included as non-magical then I would place them in the animal category, closer to an elephant for threat level.
The West had Rohan's cavalry, ridiculously outnumbered but with almost equally ridiculous morale. They had a courageous leader, one who leads by example, and they had no choice but to die with full honor today, or live a while longer with less. If you put Roman Legions into that predicament, and I'd say especially the 'Marian Legions' you would see the same relentlessness, the same devotion to honor and duty that made it impossible for Rohan to turn back from what on screen looks like over half a million troops. The 'Marian' killing machine would break the enemy ranks despite that. Orcs have no honor.
Insert magic; If both sides get to use what was theirs in the story, I still vote for the Legions. Gaius Julius Caesar rides through the paths of the dead (legend modified to fit Romans in place of Númenoreans) The dead legions from the past rise to join the battle, and there you go. In the films it can be argued that Rohan had achieved the victory, and the undead made it a curb stomp after they arrived.
Literally;
Sauron knew Orcs were garbage troops, so he made deep alliances with rulers from the east, and the south including the King of Harad who had a real army. The Easterlings and Wain riders that were to a large degree missing from the movies, would have been better disciplined and provided an increased number of shock troops for Mordor to field, and possibly a significant number of horse archers to counter Rohan's advantage in that category. This might have lead to a case where the Roman General has to hold up in the city rather than break the foe in the open. That leaves the outcome far less certain, unless we have undead troops coming to help the Romans out.
Magic is the same as before, except that the defense at Minas Tirith benefits much more from the undead troops.
Long term;
If the One Ring isn't destroyed it doesn't matter who wins on the battlefield ...
Qapla!
That one is so stupid, he lost a Rock/Paper/Scissors game to a Pony.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
You are right. The battle at Pelennor Fields the single most lopsided battle as far as number go, that I think I have ever seen on film. '300' comes close though.
I suppose with the right magic the orcs could be made to swarm like ants, or zombies in WWZ, but there was nothing like that on film, at least in my opinion.
I have a sneaking affection for Scythians and the historical middle finger they delivered to the Persian invasion. My favorite scene in the movie may well be the charge of Rohan. It's fun to imagine the alternate realities though. Leonidas and the Spartans?
I wonder if there is a computer game with mods for this exact thing?
Qapla!
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
I learn something new every day ...
Thanks. I'll have to see what I can find for it.
Qapla!
My character Tsin'xing
That one is so stupid, he lost a Rock/Paper/Scissors game to a Pony.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
If we're going by Pelennor Fields the Orcs massively outnumber any Roman army ever fielded. It showed siege engines that would level Sterling Castle, never mind a little Roman fort. It showed Mûmakil and Trolls that would be able to deal with the Romans all by themselves. As you've forgotten that they were panicked and routed in the film and still decimated the riders and were only stopped by the Army of the Dead (in the film anyway).
Then there's Mordor's allies whom I'd assume would be showing up as Mûmakil were mentioned in the first place.
The Romans will not be getting Gandalf or Eagles nor will Gondor or Rohan come to Rome's aid for the same reason the Federation and Rebellion are uninvolved in the extermination of the Borg by the Empire, or the Borg by the Cybermen. It's a challenge between Mordor and Rome.
Romans did not do well against armies who were as trained and disciplined as them which the Orcs clearly are. In any engagement (most clearly seen in the films but also in the books) the Orcs stop being shambolic and form clear battle lines, with archery blocks, pikes, calverley, siege weapons, explosives, runners. In short all the advantages of the Romans and more, because, again, the Orcs are a mix of late medieval and WWI style tactics and technology and the Romans are... Roman era in the same.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Even if we substract the supernatural, Mordor had the technology advantage as @artan42 pointed out, albeit the far leap only comes with the cinematic version, the lieral Middle Earth uses technology akin to the dark ages for the most part, no plates or crossbows and the like. But still, even if you reduce Mordor to "barbarians" you know that Rome had a hard time with those, especially when they were not fighting on their home turf.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
though, they somehow had trouble dealing with a rag-tag band of ex-slaves for a while
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
That one is so stupid, he lost a Rock/Paper/Scissors game to a Pony.
Oliphants are the size of a building. They are not elephants. They would walk straight through the legion without so much as break a sweat, and not just because they probably don't have sweat glands
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Consider also that organization is social technology, and it was something the Romans excelled at. Also, this;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Isandlwana
"The British Army had suffered its worst defeat against an indigenous foe with vastly inferior military technology."
So without the organization rifles and artillery lose pretty much to pointy sticks. The tech that really matters is the tech that is used to greater effect. After the Zulu had all those captured rifles (1000, plus 400k rounds of ammo) they went after some more Brits who were better organized;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Rorke's_Drift
"Just over 150 British and colonial troops successfully defended the garrison against an intense assault by 3,000 to 4,000 Zulu warriors."
Better tech use, better leadership, Romans vs Barbarians;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Alesia
Morale and leadership matter. Orcs are overconfident and irregular troops who will falter and break when hit by more disciplined troops, Even if those troops are using what appears to be 10th century gear. Note that the orcs are beginning to break even before contact with the enemy.
@angrytarg
Now as the markhawkman pointed out, we are comparing fiction to fact. In the end it is even less provable then the 'ninja vs pirate' sort of argument. At least they existed.
In that spirit I will probably decline to say much more about this, and instead sit back and watch. It is a fun topic.
Qapla!
Lotsa vitamins in Arda's water I guess.
Qapla!
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
But that doesn't really work here. The armies of Mordor may not have better tech, but what they do have is more powerful all the same. Orcs are not disciplined warriors. But they do have the strength to take a dull blade and force it through gothic plate armor or shatter a Roman shield.
Sure the Romans could do something about that, but.... one on one it's not a fair fight, and Roman formation tactics aren't designed to fight enemies like that.
Also, Wraiths and dragons like Smaug the Golden or Ancalagon the Black would pretty much just annihilate a legion. Which is what I was getting at earlier, adding characters from Roman mythology on the roman side, like Hercules for example.
My character Tsin'xing
There's three main engagements in LotR that come to mind, the Siege of Erebor, the Siege of the Hornburg, and the Siege of Minas Tirith/Battle of the Pelennor Fields. All three involve Orcish armies and auxiliaries (Goblins, Wargs etc.), orcs attacking in waves, clear battle lines, in short, everything the Romans had.
Unless somebody is going to define a actual situation, let's just go with the Orcs are encamped in Barad-dûr and under siege by the Romans. What advantage do the Romans have here?
Excluding the Fellowship Romana having the ring or something stupid like that. It's Romans Vs. Mordor's armies, not Romans vs. Sauron.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
This is completely true, the movies didn't show it very well but Saruman's intention all along was to take the One Ring for himself and use it to overthrow Sauron.
This does not, however, diminish the clear advantage Mordor has over Rome thanks to the trolls, oliphaunts, and Nazgûl. Let's get specific, if the Roman capital was under siege by the full might of Mordor, how could they repel the assault?
Sooooo we add a little of this:
My character Tsin'xing
By invoking physics.
If that army had to fight under our natural laws then all the big beasties would break bones when they moved. Nazgul would only frighten children, pretty much like any other 'ghost'. All those impossibly large siege engines ... well they are impossibly large. Orcs would be rife with serious birth defects and genetic disorders, and that is even if you accept their 'origin', as fantastic as it is, and if that too is taken away then the light of reason burns away the whole army.
The problem with many (not all) posts here is that they seem to pick a side and cherry pick the context to favor that side winning. It makes sense that a war in Arda means magic is available to both sides within reason, with the implication of Rome being of that world would mean that Romans would possess the perks of belonging there.
If Orcs were somehow a natural creature on Earth, then their mysticism would be limited to the same effectiveness as other cultures have experienced (not dissing your faith anyone) That would most likely mean that Sauron was a guy, his Nazgul were guys, and his outlandish pets were just normal animals getting by on reputation. Saruman himself might be a great engineer, and philosopher, and a 'close personal friend of' Sauron, but he would still be just one guy. So far none of this says 'Rome gets curbstomped' to me.
Taking the specific example above (Roman Capital) can't be done without addressing all the possible assumptions, and coming to an agreement as to which ones will be allowed to stick. No disrespect to the question asked, but to answer it we would all need to agree what the rules were. Much would depend on what era of Legion history you are working with.
artan42 asked about "the Orcs are encamped in Barad-dûr and under siege by the Romans". We need more context for this. On it's face, Rome never met a structure that it couldn't out-engineer, so what makes this time different? It all depends on you, the reader, and how you have shuffled the deck in your own mind.
Where/when does magic get counted, and for who? How much suspension of disbelief do we give each side, and why? Which tech is to be considered artistic license, and which tech will be taken at face value? How do you assess true quality over the mere ability to stand in neat groups for awhile?
That is a lot of slop to sift through, especially since we seem to be using chopsticks here.
I will stick with my earlier posts for general purposes.
if anyone wants to sort out the 'rules of engagement' so we can have a more serious comparison of different situations, I'd chime in as I can.
My positions starting out are, #1 that magic is or isn't there for both sides, #2 that either everyone gets their Gandalfs and Shelobs, or nobody does, #3 is that Rome doesn't show up to the fight with no intel, and that there has been a prior history of Romes involvement in the war. That is a start.
What do you say? Do we agree on creating some parameters first? Or just keep chasing our tales?
Qapla!
I was referring to the film version so it's the fortress itself that's under siege and there's no battles in the valley itself except for a brief cavalry charge followed by the Orcs retreating.
I gave that example, despite being aware of the stipulation of 'Mordor's armies' as there were Mordor Orcs that worked with Saruman initially but mainly to show an example of Orcs using tactics.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Uruk Hai.
Saruman's were the most elite version having the most uniform and quality gear, and being better trained, and lead.
I'd call them the best of the worst of the worst.
Still if any orcs were capable of any real discipline, it would be those.
As cool and as faithful as the movies were, they still played around a lot and not all of it was good. (still boycotting the Hobbit pt. 2 and 3 to this day)
Qapla!
You're missing out, though. Coolest Dwarven army ever shown on screen
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"