Okay, that is a bit harsh, but their droning on about "balance" is more annoying then Klingons droning about their honor. Honor (or Profit) have been actual important aspects in human societies the Deferi "Balance" wreaks of an artificial sci-fi concept that breaks down quickly.
The concept of balance as a philosophy is prominent in eastern societies and was a big part of pre-christian cultures, so saying they don't have any significance for human morality plays is not correct in my opinion. However, I grant you that they (Deferi) are written terribly. A major problem in a lot of works is that nobody really gets how "balance" or "neutrality" work. It has nothing to do with passiveness. In fact, keeping the balance/neutrality requires a lot of activity, as anyone ever having played a truly neutral character properly can tell you (or look at how much work it is in eastern philosophy to embrace a balanced/enlightened lifestyle). As such I say their concept haven't even been touched yet, sentences like "we keep the balance, and thus don't do anything" are tremendously stupid however.
There are things between which a balance is objectively good and things between which a balance is subjectively good. Then there are things between which a balance is a horribly bad idea, if not even entirely logically impossible (like good and evil). Guess which one of these categories most fictional "balance-keepers" go for?
The problem of the deferi is they weren't written what they're supposed to balance at all. "All things" is not a thing. Their balance-talk is therefore left without true meaning. Which, when combined with their chronic inability to do anything but wait for the player to rescue them from the enemy of the moment, leaves them with a rather bad impression.
Make no mistake, that off-handed "oh, protomatter's easy to control" comment was NOT a throw-away line.
This just proves how outdated the Federation requirement of Warp Travel for membership is. Obviously, the Lukari are superior to the Federation, Klingons, and Romulans in their protomatter technology and there might be other areas where the Lukari are superior. The most important requirement for Federation membership should be if a species is ready for membership. It shouldn't matter if a race is currently in their pre-industrial phase of development. All that should matter is if they are able to work with countless other alien races without them freaking out or trying to kill the demons.
I might get smote down for bringing in outside material into this, but it's kind of like (gasp in horror) the Star Wars prequels when you think about it; the Jedi had gotten so used to being the all-powerful protectors of 'peace' and 'justice' in the Republic that the idea of the Chosen One to "bring balance to the Force" might be meant to do so by tearing down and destroying the Jedi Order never occurred to them. Instead, they were certain that 'balance' meant 'wiping out the Sith once and for all'. As it turned out, it really meant returning both sides to a relatively equal footing (not referring to the Empire and the Rebel Alliance, just the two sides of Force-users) with a master (Palpatine and Kenobi) and an apprentice (Luke and Anakin) on each side. Balance.
Except for a few throwaway comments by Surah and one of the mission givers in the Invasion Zone, the Deferi seem to be along the same lines; they're so certain that 'balance' means 'passiveness' that they refuse to consider the idea that 'balance' might require the Deferi to become part of the larger galactic community, to begin to interact with others of different beliefs and take an active part in countering situations like the Breen slave trade (even when it involves their own people) or Borg incursions (despite their world being a target of such)... in other words, that 'Balance' might actually be anything different than what they've already decided that it must be.
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." -- Q, TNG: "Q-Who?"
^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...
I might get smote down for bringing in outside material into this, but it's kind of like (gasp in horror) the Star Wars prequels when you think about it; the Jedi had gotten so used to being the all-powerful protectors of 'peace' and 'justice' in the Republic that the idea of the Chosen One to "bring balance to the Force" might be meant to do so by tearing down and destroying the Jedi Order never occurred to them. Instead, they were certain that 'balance' meant 'wiping out the Sith once and for all'. As it turned out, it really meant returning both sides to a relatively equal footing (not referring to the Empire and the Rebel Alliance, just the two sides of Force-users) with a master (Palpatine and Kenobi) and an apprentice (Luke and Anakin) on each side. Balance.
The balance did mean wiping out the Sith. Which he did in Return of the Jedi when he killed the Emperor.
I might get smote down for bringing in outside material into this, but it's kind of like (gasp in horror) the Star Wars prequels when you think about it; the Jedi had gotten so used to being the all-powerful protectors of 'peace' and 'justice' in the Republic that the idea of the Chosen One to "bring balance to the Force" might be meant to do so by tearing down and destroying the Jedi Order never occurred to them. Instead, they were certain that 'balance' meant 'wiping out the Sith once and for all'. As it turned out, it really meant returning both sides to a relatively equal footing (not referring to the Empire and the Rebel Alliance, just the two sides of Force-users) with a master (Palpatine and Kenobi) and an apprentice (Luke and Anakin) on each side. Balance.
The balance did mean wiping out the Sith. Which he did in Return of the Jedi when he killed the Emperor.
Established Jedi wiped out, established Sith wiped out, both are forced to rebuild basically from scratch. Again, there's a balance there. But it required the established Jedi Order to be wiped out, something that they never considered possible or even necessary as part of achieving balance - which is where my point actually lay; the refusal to accept that 'balance' might not mean what one thinks it means, something that applies to both the Jedi Order in the prequels and the Deferi in STO.
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." -- Q, TNG: "Q-Who?"
^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...
The problem of the deferi is they weren't written what they're supposed to balance at all. "All things" is not a thing. Their balance-talk is therefore left without true meaning. Which, when combined with their chronic inability to do anything but wait for the player to rescue them from the enemy of the moment, leaves them with a rather bad impression.
So true.
If they acted what they preach, they'd be flipping sides all the time always siding against whoever was winning. Eventually one side they flipped on would end them. The sooner the better IMO.
The problem of the deferi is they weren't written what they're supposed to balance at all. "All things" is not a thing. Their balance-talk is therefore left without true meaning. Which, when combined with their chronic inability to do anything but wait for the player to rescue them from the enemy of the moment, leaves them with a rather bad impression.
So true.
If they acted what they preach, they'd be flipping sides all the time always siding against whoever was winning. Eventually one side they flipped on would end them. The sooner the better IMO.
Partly, yes. Of course they would have to fight back when they are attacked and they would also ally with the alliance to do so. But they would end the cooperation once their allies would push inside the opposing parties' boundaries. A balanced approach would acknowledge that defending yourself mustn't mean you can conquer in turn. Both examples, the Cryptic-written always passive attitude as well as the almost instinct driven approach of "constantly flipping sides" have little to do with a balanced, thought out behaviour. But that's exactly what they had to do, be very involved and well informed about everything but choosing their battles carefully. In the current state of the story, it would serve the balance to up their starfleet and engage in exploration. The Breen and Borg incidents have shown that they are far from "balanced" - whoever thought it would be fitting for them to fall in complete passiveness hasn't thought that concept through.
I wouldn't mind seeing the Deferi and Lukari team up on the ship design, engaging in cooperation - they are close enough to each other and are already aware of the other. It would make sense.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
One aspect of real world philosophies involving balance is understanding the situation. granted many of them kinda fake that, but the actual philosophical tenets are to observe first, consider which side to take, then act.
I'd actually be more interested to see Cryptic revisit Defera in light of the Lukari storyline. Right now they're just kind of a parody of the Neutronians from Futurama, but I think the writing and art talent of Cryptic could flesh out who they are a bit more, and I think they'd make a good companion species to the Lukari.
I'd actually be more interested to see Cryptic revisit Defera in light of the Lukari storyline. Right now they're just kind of a parody of the Neutronians from Futurama, but I think the writing and art talent of Cryptic could flesh out who they are a bit more, and I think they'd make a good companion species to the Lukari.
Ironically enough, they'd make a good 'balance' to the Lukari, one that's technologically and socialogically as advanced as any of the other races but remains on or near their homeworld; the other with less advanced technology that's basically looking out at the galaxy and saying "(whether we're) ready or not, here we come".
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." -- Q, TNG: "Q-Who?"
^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...
I'd actually be more interested to see Cryptic revisit Defera in light of the Lukari storyline. Right now they're just kind of a parody of the Neutronians from Futurama, but I think the writing and art talent of Cryptic could flesh out who they are a bit more, and I think they'd make a good companion species to the Lukari.
I wouldn't call the "writing and art of Cryptic" a talent. More like a curse. They have never done a good story, and shall never do a good story.
I just play the game to fly my Connie. Nothing more.
I'd actually be more interested to see Cryptic revisit Defera in light of the Lukari storyline. Right now they're just kind of a parody of the Neutronians from Futurama, but I think the writing and art talent of Cryptic could flesh out who they are a bit more, and I think they'd make a good companion species to the Lukari.
I wouldn't call the "writing and art of Cryptic" a talent. More like a curse. They have never done a good story, and shall never do a good story.
I just play the game to fly my Connie. Nothing more.
I won't discount the possiblity that Cryptic will return to the Deferi, but as they were, they were pretty boring and they wrote themselves into the passiveness corner. Maybe it's time for some political upheaval. Sideline their old Ambassador and show us, say, the new Deferi president that actually wants to be more active in maintaining a meaningful concept of balance.
But the Lukari as is are much more interesting written, and their main character so far has been written symapthetic and smart.
Plus she got a decent voice actor.
The Lukari introduction already was written much better. The Deferi came off as passive, helpless, and seemingly incapable of fighting back. When we encounter the Lukari, we already see them trying to solve the problem they face on their own. They fail (a failure which was also extremely well acted, at least by STO's standards), but they are not clueless, they are not passive. They are much more engaging.
Mustrum "Also, I am still interested in exploring how this mixed heritage of Kal Dano could come to be, if you know what I mean and I think you do." Ridcully
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
The Deferi came off as passive, helpless, and seemingly incapable of fighting back. When we encounter the Lukari, we already see them trying to solve the problem they face on their own.
The Deferi were perfectly willing to fight the Breen. They were just hilariously outgunned (by the same Chel Grett cruisers that wiped out a Federation/Klingon/Romulan armada in DS9).
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them." -Thomas Marrone
The Deferi came off as passive, helpless, and seemingly incapable of fighting back. When we encounter the Lukari, we already see them trying to solve the problem they face on their own.
The Deferi were perfectly willing to fight the Breen. They were just hilariously outgunned (by the same Chel Grett cruisers that wiped out a Federation/Klingon/Romulan armada in DS9).
This is true. The Deferi are simply in no state to match any of the other factions on a military level. They have however saved a Klingon exploration fleet in "the path to 2409" which is why they have good relations with the Klingon Empire. The Deferi are capable, they just need some assistance to design new ships and retrofit the fleet - and some better writing that makes sense, as we covered before.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
The Deferi came off as passive, helpless, and seemingly incapable of fighting back. When we encounter the Lukari, we already see them trying to solve the problem they face on their own.
The Deferi were perfectly willing to fight the Breen. They were just hilariously outgunned (by the same Chel Grett cruisers that wiped out a Federation/Klingon/Romulan armada in DS9).
This is true. The Deferi are simply in no state to match any of the other factions on a military level. They have however saved a Klingon exploration fleet in "the path to 2409" which is why they have good relations with the Klingon Empire. The Deferi are capable, they just need some assistance to design new ships and retrofit the fleet - and some better writing that makes sense, as we covered before.
Maybe some social upheaval - younger Deferi, escapees from the Breen and/or survivors of the Borg Invasion (Liberated Borg-Deferi from "Momento Vitae", for example) who want to move away from passive belief in 'Balance' and begin taking a more active role in galactic events could clash with the more established Deferi culture. It'd be a way to flesh out the culture, how 'Balance' developed as it has, maybe find out just what the heck the Borg are looking for on Defera (five, six years and all we know is they're looking for something specific related to the Preservers and they're taking anything technological back to the Probe - with the destruction of the Archive and death of the surviving Preservers at the hands of the Iconians, one would think that any trace of Preserver culture and/or technology would be of even greater import now...)...
Maybe the reason the Deferi are so passive is there's a Preserver device on Defera that was part of what they used to transplant cultures for 'preservation' and keep them docile in the process and it's malfunctioning and affecting the planet and those who live on it...
(There's another faux pas in the storyline: the merger of the Preservers, who were active at least sometime in the last ten or twenty thousand years - re: Mirananee's Planet and the Native Americans they placed there - with the 'Early Humanoid Life' from TNG: "Chase" who were the ones that seeded the galaxy with life millions of years ago...)
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." -- Q, TNG: "Q-Who?"
^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...
The Deferi came off as passive, helpless, and seemingly incapable of fighting back. When we encounter the Lukari, we already see them trying to solve the problem they face on their own.
The Deferi were perfectly willing to fight the Breen. They were just hilariously outgunned (by the same Chel Grett cruisers that wiped out a Federation/Klingon/Romulan armada in DS9).
The "seemed" is important. They started in a position that made them seem passive.
The Lukari have their star ruined, and we see them trying to launch a probe.
The Deferi are seeing the Breen take their worlds and blow up their ships, and we meet an ambassador that kinda lures us into the whole conflict. The setup made them weak personality-wise, not just weak due to technological or logistical limitations.
And we know since TNG how the initial setup is crucial - The Ferengi failed as new big villain simply due the way they were presented in the very first episode they appeared in.
One way to potentially improve the whole initial encounter with them might be if during the attack on the city in the first episode, we actually see some fighting back.
If not the first encounter, maybe a later mission could be dealing with the Deferi launching a counter-attack on a Deferi outpost against the Breen and us just joining their operation.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Or active sweeps in orbit - we see one diplomatic ship and wreckage, but some sort of worried orbital defense could work.... which is then shot to pieces when we return to the ship.
Fate - protects fools, small children, and ships named Enterprise Will Riker
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My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
Comments
The problem of the deferi is they weren't written what they're supposed to balance at all. "All things" is not a thing. Their balance-talk is therefore left without true meaning. Which, when combined with their chronic inability to do anything but wait for the player to rescue them from the enemy of the moment, leaves them with a rather bad impression.
This just proves how outdated the Federation requirement of Warp Travel for membership is. Obviously, the Lukari are superior to the Federation, Klingons, and Romulans in their protomatter technology and there might be other areas where the Lukari are superior. The most important requirement for Federation membership should be if a species is ready for membership. It shouldn't matter if a race is currently in their pre-industrial phase of development. All that should matter is if they are able to work with countless other alien races without them freaking out or trying to kill the demons.
Except for a few throwaway comments by Surah and one of the mission givers in the Invasion Zone, the Deferi seem to be along the same lines; they're so certain that 'balance' means 'passiveness' that they refuse to consider the idea that 'balance' might require the Deferi to become part of the larger galactic community, to begin to interact with others of different beliefs and take an active part in countering situations like the Breen slave trade (even when it involves their own people) or Borg incursions (despite their world being a target of such)... in other words, that 'Balance' might actually be anything different than what they've already decided that it must be.
^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...
The balance did mean wiping out the Sith. Which he did in Return of the Jedi when he killed the Emperor.
Established Jedi wiped out, established Sith wiped out, both are forced to rebuild basically from scratch. Again, there's a balance there. But it required the established Jedi Order to be wiped out, something that they never considered possible or even necessary as part of achieving balance - which is where my point actually lay; the refusal to accept that 'balance' might not mean what one thinks it means, something that applies to both the Jedi Order in the prequels and the Deferi in STO.
^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...
So true.
If they acted what they preach, they'd be flipping sides all the time always siding against whoever was winning. Eventually one side they flipped on would end them. The sooner the better IMO.
My character Tsin'xing
Partly, yes. Of course they would have to fight back when they are attacked and they would also ally with the alliance to do so. But they would end the cooperation once their allies would push inside the opposing parties' boundaries. A balanced approach would acknowledge that defending yourself mustn't mean you can conquer in turn. Both examples, the Cryptic-written always passive attitude as well as the almost instinct driven approach of "constantly flipping sides" have little to do with a balanced, thought out behaviour. But that's exactly what they had to do, be very involved and well informed about everything but choosing their battles carefully. In the current state of the story, it would serve the balance to up their starfleet and engage in exploration. The Breen and Borg incidents have shown that they are far from "balanced" - whoever thought it would be fitting for them to fall in complete passiveness hasn't thought that concept through.
I wouldn't mind seeing the Deferi and Lukari team up on the ship design, engaging in cooperation - they are close enough to each other and are already aware of the other. It would make sense.
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My character Tsin'xing
Ironically enough, they'd make a good 'balance' to the Lukari, one that's technologically and socialogically as advanced as any of the other races but remains on or near their homeworld; the other with less advanced technology that's basically looking out at the galaxy and saying "(whether we're) ready or not, here we come".
^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...
I wouldn't call the "writing and art of Cryptic" a talent. More like a curse. They have never done a good story, and shall never do a good story.
I just play the game to fly my Connie. Nothing more.
Thanks for sharing!
But the Lukari as is are much more interesting written, and their main character so far has been written symapthetic and smart.
Plus she got a decent voice actor.
The Lukari introduction already was written much better. The Deferi came off as passive, helpless, and seemingly incapable of fighting back. When we encounter the Lukari, we already see them trying to solve the problem they face on their own. They fail (a failure which was also extremely well acted, at least by STO's standards), but they are not clueless, they are not passive. They are much more engaging.
Mustrum "Also, I am still interested in exploring how this mixed heritage of Kal Dano could come to be, if you know what I mean and I think you do." Ridcully
The Deferi were perfectly willing to fight the Breen. They were just hilariously outgunned (by the same Chel Grett cruisers that wiped out a Federation/Klingon/Romulan armada in DS9).
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them."
-Thomas Marrone
This is true. The Deferi are simply in no state to match any of the other factions on a military level. They have however saved a Klingon exploration fleet in "the path to 2409" which is why they have good relations with the Klingon Empire. The Deferi are capable, they just need some assistance to design new ships and retrofit the fleet - and some better writing that makes sense, as we covered before.
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Maybe some social upheaval - younger Deferi, escapees from the Breen and/or survivors of the Borg Invasion (Liberated Borg-Deferi from "Momento Vitae", for example) who want to move away from passive belief in 'Balance' and begin taking a more active role in galactic events could clash with the more established Deferi culture. It'd be a way to flesh out the culture, how 'Balance' developed as it has, maybe find out just what the heck the Borg are looking for on Defera (five, six years and all we know is they're looking for something specific related to the Preservers and they're taking anything technological back to the Probe - with the destruction of the Archive and death of the surviving Preservers at the hands of the Iconians, one would think that any trace of Preserver culture and/or technology would be of even greater import now...)...
Maybe the reason the Deferi are so passive is there's a Preserver device on Defera that was part of what they used to transplant cultures for 'preservation' and keep them docile in the process and it's malfunctioning and affecting the planet and those who live on it...
(There's another faux pas in the storyline: the merger of the Preservers, who were active at least sometime in the last ten or twenty thousand years - re: Mirananee's Planet and the Native Americans they placed there - with the 'Early Humanoid Life' from TNG: "Chase" who were the ones that seeded the galaxy with life millions of years ago...)
^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...
The "seemed" is important. They started in a position that made them seem passive.
The Lukari have their star ruined, and we see them trying to launch a probe.
The Deferi are seeing the Breen take their worlds and blow up their ships, and we meet an ambassador that kinda lures us into the whole conflict. The setup made them weak personality-wise, not just weak due to technological or logistical limitations.
And we know since TNG how the initial setup is crucial - The Ferengi failed as new big villain simply due the way they were presented in the very first episode they appeared in.
One way to potentially improve the whole initial encounter with them might be if during the attack on the city in the first episode, we actually see some fighting back.
If not the first encounter, maybe a later mission could be dealing with the Deferi launching a counter-attack on a Deferi outpost against the Breen and us just joining their operation.
Member Access Denied Armada!
My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!