I am not so sure in pvp it is best that a Klingon ship attack from below or above when coming out of cloak, if someone is doing that with a Bortasqu they will have the advantage of position long enough to bring all weapons to bare. Not to mention a long time ago a Fed player posted a video proving that the Dreadnought Fed side could kill allot of ships in pvp, this was before that ship got buffed. My point is its been heard of someone taking a over sized ship into pvp and doing rather well. As for the mogh I just looked that up, for a such a low hull it has bad turn rate. For that much of a hull upgraded it should be turning at in the area of 12 to 14 not 9. In my opinion that is quite a handicap for a ship like that.
and yet, with a turn rate of 8, it still outperforms the Bort using the same kit, and it's marginally cheaper while not being reliant on wasting 3 console slots on **** that hasn't worked right since 2011.
but a better example, is the T5 Fleet Tor'kaht. Same price as a Mogh or ONE of the Bort 3-pack, doesn't even COME with a special klikky console... (okay, really it's cheaper-4 FM's is 2000 zen purchased separately, the Mogh costs 25,000 zen for the T5 or 30K for the T6)
and outperforms the Bortasque hands-down on every build, in every scenario save one. It doesn't outperform it in CCA where you really CAN park and cut loose with big guns because the target is neither moving, nor manuevering (and is bloody huge).
It's all in Ceterus Paribus-using the same engine/shields/core/deflector (whether drop, or fleet, or rep), and using the same energy and torpedo types, both the Mogh (T5 or 5U or 6) and the Tor'Kaht (T5 or T5U, there is no T6) consistently work better than a Bortasque. The console stack needed to get a Bort up to the same performance as a bone-stock Mogh, make a Mogh handle like an escort by comparison, and make the Tor'Kaht one of the bigger nimble escorts in the game, flying more like...well, like a BATTLE cruiser, as in being in-line with the performance differences observed as you level your KDF on BC's vs. leveling your Fed on Cruisers.
The Bortasque inverts this-instead of following the Battlecruiser doctrine you should have gotten accustomed to as you level your KDF, it follows (badly) Federation Cruiser trends toward bigger, slower, heavier, with poorer handling and a pronounced reliance on AOE attacks to cover for the inability to turn.
as I said, all the defects of both Battlecruisers and Cruisers, with none of the graces of either. (You can't bring DHC to bear if you can't control your turn rates, the ability to mount them becomes irrelevant if you can't get steel on target. Inertia score also impacts your ability to both begin, and end movement-this makes gaining positioning very difficult with a ship saddled with the Bort's inertial scores, since it basically means you can't react to changes in situation, accelerate, or handle basic Klingon content like the Pi Canis run reliably without lots of help.)
IMHO, the Bortasque is mis-labeled and suffers for it. It's a Cruiser, not a BattleCruiser, it's made and meant to orbit and FAW, not turn and burn in the sort of dogfighting that actual Battlecruisers do well in compared to their Federation counterparts.
It's also ostentatious, like a chinese funeral barge, rather than utilitarian like a Klingon Warship...
and finally, it's crippled by paying the 'cloaking tax' in Tier 5 fitting, while being...well, really rubbish at Tier six-the sort of ship you buy for the mastery passive and never fly again once you have it.
Your claims are not without substance, but are we not straying from the point. I believe it can be done, but you are right there are better ships out there for it then the Bortasqu' In fact this conversation got me looking at kdf ships tier six, specifically the Kurak. The mogh tier six variant. Right now my level of incompetence in overlooking this ship is high. I can not believe I overlooked the tactical layout of that ship or the five forward and three aft weapon slots. The mogh I was previously looking at was the tier five one, which seemed weak, but the tier six one has a hull of 50k. A solid ship. Though the op asked a question this thread has got me thinking and looking more closely at certain aspects.
Sooo.... you have fragmentary data, none of it based on actually attempting to personally use one?
The fun part is that if you REALLY want it to turn fast, Spec Pilot. With that mine have a pretty good turn rate for a space whale. And I would know, I've been flying space whales since before the Bort and Oddy prototypes were released. But unlike Oddy Bort has a cloak.
Anyways, the trick to flying space whales is planning ahead to force your enemies to come to you. It's really not hard given how breain-dead the AIs are...
When/where were you running? apologies for my skepticism, but I see this sort of claim a lot-yet every Bort I've ever been in a match alongside, specifically in that time period, was a millstone on the rest of the team that either didn't contribute at all, or contributed kills to the other side's victory tally. SPECIFICALLY in PvP, though there have been a few truly dedicated pilots able to make them work in ISE (Which is PvE) largely on the basis that the targets don't move fast and do move in fixed 'tracks' at predictable intervals.
PUGs back in 2012/13; basically switched to running a carrier after that, and then gave up (on PVP) for the most part post-LOR.
I can't prove it, of course, but for a period the Bort seemed a viable PVP platform. The key was to pack enough wallop that you could kill during the brief window when you had a target in your frontal arc, and at that point in time the combo of the Bort's autocannon, 4 tac consoles, and Eng-mitigated BAO3 seemed very effective.
Even then the Tor'khat was a much better cruiser, but I've always had a soft spot for my Bort / Eng combo and it seems to deliver.
I admit that in performance terms the Kurak is better as an attack cruiser, but both it and the Mogh are rather meh as designs. The Negh'var is a brilliant design, but Cryptic have criminally saddled it with a 4:4 layout, which means if you try to run it as a head-on gunship it's borked. Same with the Vor'cha.
So I keep coming back to the Bortas'qu, which looks the part and plays the "mighty glacier" role very well - indeed, better than its Fed counterparts.
Not to go off topic, but staq16 you seem to have allot of experience with the Botasqu', and I have a few questions. One of them being, is it just me, or do the command abilities of a bridge officer do not even come close to being as good as regular tact abilities? The other is what would you recommend on engineering for a tact officer, tactical bortasqu, with one commander engineering slot.
Command abilities are only great IMO if you're using torps, which is why it's rather nonsensical that they're mostly on lumbering heavy cruisers; the Vet Destroyers are a notable exception. With a Martok BC, I'd slot Aux to Structural Integrity III, EPTW3, RSP1 and EPTS1, bolstered by a trio of Damage Control Engineers. That gives near-continuous uptime on the EPTXs, A2SIF has it anyway, and RSP as an "Oh S&^!" card. IMO a good mix of offensive and defensive abilities.
Thank you for the information I will put it to good use. As for the Negh'var tier six solid ship but heavy by way of engineering bridge officer slots. The Kurak has more tactical slots with five forward weapons. I think its the difference between do you want to do damage, or do you want to mostly tank, but I could be wrong.
Thank you for the information I will put it to good use. As for the Negh'var tier six solid ship but heavy by way of engineering bridge officer slots. The Kurak has more tactical slots with five forward weapons. I think its the difference between do you want to do damage, or do you want to mostly tank, but I could be wrong.
All depends on how you build that Negh'var T6. I run EP2E1, Aux2Bat 1, EP2W2, RSP 3, Engi Team 1, Engi Team 2, and Aceton Beam 1.
Tetryon Weapons build, for almost all the tetryon nukes(just missing lobi store mines/console), along w/ a Sticky Web console in a sci slot as a uni Cat 1 boost. If I'm using a DBB build, BOL 3/BOL 2 and Tact Team 1x2. For cannons, I swap out BOL 3/BOL 2 for CRF 2/CRF 1, as well as the weapons to cannons.
It's all in how you want to test things out. You do have two loadout slots to play with.
My issues with the Kurak and Negh'tev aren't to do with their performance, but with their visual style. The Kurak is just a design I'm not keen on (and was the same with the Mogh) - somehow it looks disproportionate in a way that the Bortas doesn't. The Bort works as a "flying fortress" while the Kurak / Mogh are, IMO, unsuccessful tweaks of the Klingon BC ethos.
The Negh'tev - or to be accurate the Negh'var - is a great canon design. The problem is that the visuals, with those massive underslung weapon mounts, scream for a forward-focussed weapons build, while the stats push you towards broadsiding. I have actually run the T6 Negh'tev a lot, but it was never entirely comfortable.
The Bort, OTOH, looks and flies as a mobile fortress, especially as an Engineer captain. It just works and is therefore fun for me.
(( I agree the klingons should have more forward weapon slots in there ships, the feds would go ballistic. Consider how many years they cried on the forums over the universal bridge officer slots, the carriers, and our great turn rate at the time. I too do not like broadsiding but to be fair Federation ships seen in movies broadsiding are rare, most of the time they are seen unleashing a powerful forward array of weapons. This is something that has troubled me about sto for some time, the excessive broadsiding for dps, and the fact that a small tiny ship can destroy a battleship with little to no problem at all. From a strictly tactical perspective it is interesting that on all the kdf tier 6 battlecruisers there is not a single slot for cannon rapid fire three or omega two. At least on the ones I have been looking at of late. However there is plenty of tactical room for beam overload three, beam fire at will three. I think that screams something but I do not wish to attract certain persons.))
"Mobile Fortress" or "Mobile Palace Barge" Since we have never seen the interior of a Bortasqu all we have to go on is the bridge. I do believe "Mobile Palace Barge" best describes the bridge.
(( I agree the klingons should have more forward weapon slots in there ships, the feds would go ballistic. Consider how many years they cried on the forums over the universal bridge officer slots, the carriers, and our great turn rate at the time. I too do not like broadsiding but to be fair Federation ships seen in movies broadsiding are rare, most of the time they are seen unleashing a powerful forward array of weapons. This is something that has troubled me about sto for some time, the excessive broadsiding for dps, and the fact that a small tiny ship can destroy a battleship with little to no problem at all. From a strictly tactical perspective it is interesting that on all the kdf tier 6 battlecruisers there is not a single slot for cannon rapid fire three or omega two. At least on the ones I have been looking at of late. However there is plenty of tactical room for beam overload three, beam fire at will three. I think that screams something but I do not wish to attract certain persons.))
"Mobile Fortress" or "Mobile Palace Barge" Since we have never seen the interior of a Bortasqu all we have to go on is the bridge. I do believe "Mobile Palace Barge" best describes the bridge.
You have it right. None of the KDF battlecruisers, regardless of tier, have a commander tactical slot. The highest that we can run is CSV 2, CRF 2, APO 1.
However, ships such as the Negh'var, the Kurak, and the Mogh do have the capability to support cannons, due to a higher turn rate than the gaudy palace barge of the Bortasqu'. Throw in a few fleet RCS consoles, as well as the conductive RCS with turn mod.
(( I agree the klingons should have more forward weapon slots in there ships, the feds would go ballistic. Consider how many years they cried on the forums over the universal bridge officer slots, the carriers, and our great turn rate at the time. I too do not like broadsiding but to be fair Federation ships seen in movies broadsiding are rare, most of the time they are seen unleashing a powerful forward array of weapons. This is something that has troubled me about sto for some time, the excessive broadsiding for dps, and the fact that a small tiny ship can destroy a battleship with little to no problem at all. From a strictly tactical perspective it is interesting that on all the kdf tier 6 battlecruisers there is not a single slot for cannon rapid fire three or omega two. At least on the ones I have been looking at of late. However there is plenty of tactical room for beam overload three, beam fire at will three. I think that screams something but I do not wish to attract certain persons.))
"Mobile Fortress" or "Mobile Palace Barge" Since we have never seen the interior of a Bortasqu all we have to go on is the bridge. I do believe "Mobile Palace Barge" best describes the bridge.
You have it right. None of the KDF battlecruisers, regardless of tier, have a commander tactical slot. The highest that we can run is CSV 2, CRF 2, APO 1.
That is not a surprise. They are Battlecruisers. Cruiser in its name means Commander Engineer. That is one of the base rules of ship design in STO.
Until we get Dual Commander slot ships, that is how it's gonna be.
For Commander Tactical, you need an Escort or Raider, maybe a Destroyer, Warship and rarely, but sometimes,a Dreadnought or Dreadnought Carrier.
Maybe the Klingons should have a Warship in their ranks, something similar to that Ferengi ship? But for now they don't.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I think the Vorcha really should have been a Heavy Destroyer than a cruiser. It always felt more tactically focused to me. But ah well, that's not going to change.
no they just need not try and apply the same rule set to KDF as they do the feddy bears. klingons have a different mentality but the games devs think we should all be the same. to them that is balance not tic for tac. either that or they are just lazy. possibly both.
Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days.
So if we're at the stage of arguing aesthetics, we've got somewhere:).
Yeah, the Bortas bridge is rather nuts - but no more so than the carrier bridges, and EVERY Klingon ship has an exposed bridge unit.
Gameplay wise, with an Eng captain, the mix of 5 Tac consoles + 8 weapon slots makes it a superlative FAW-spam boat, and there's a place for one of those in my lineout. Theme-wise, it belongs with a long tradition of big Klingon ships - FASA's L-24, ADB's B-10, and DS9's Mirror Negh'Var.
Point is it's a viable platform, and yes it works better as a cruiser than a battlecruiser; doesn't mean it isn't viable and indeed highly effective as a ship.
Exactly. Trying to make it use DHC is dumb on multiple levels. It's like trying to use a batleth for a hammer... or vice versa... Exploit it's strengths, don't try to make it something it isn't.
Sooo.... you have fragmentary data, none of it based on actually attempting to personally use one?
The fun part is that if you REALLY want it to turn fast, Spec Pilot. With that mine have a pretty good turn rate for a space whale. And I would know, I've been flying space whales since before the Bort and Oddy prototypes were released. But unlike Oddy Bort has a cloak.
Anyways, the trick to flying space whales is planning ahead to force your enemies to come to you. It's really not hard given how breain-dead the AIs are...
actually, Mark, I DID try one-on tribble. when we were still able to DO that sort of thing...which cemented for me just how terribly BAD it was on a fundamental level.
In other words... You tried the T5 one... back before Pilot spec even existed. Go fly a Martok with Pilot Spec active, then tell me about how slow it is....
no they just need not try and apply the same rule set to KDF as they do the feddy bears. klingons have a different mentality but the games devs think we should all be the same. to them that is balance not tic for tac. either that or they are just lazy. possibly both.
This is my feeling. If we were indeed commanding klingon warships. All of our weapon slots would be forward, except for the occasional aft torpedo bay. Come to think of it I dont think I have ever seen a klingon ship shoot anything other then a torpedo aft. As for the fed cruisers they are cruisers nothing more, klingon ships are warships. Tow distinct different styles. How be it we will never see the day where KDF ships are armed like klingon warships. As for the tactical bridge officer layout you can not defend that layout when cannons are paramount to a correct looking galaxy class starship for the Klingon player. Those who were here at launch know what I am speaking of.
As for the KDF carrier bridge layout, I have to disagree. The carrier bridge is allot slimmer and the center is built for battle, the only access is the front small view screen. To be fair it is quite long for a bridge. I picked up all the bridges a long time ago, as I was one of those people who love a good bridge/command center.
I have my issues with the devs I wont go so far as to say the KDF has received no improvements or content. Much has changed.
Esp. when that potential is "Fly it like a Fed Cruiser" and I main KDF because, among other things, I don't care for the operational style of Fed Cruisers? I don't enjoy the "Orbit slowly and FAW" style of play...and if more or most KDF did, then the Bortas would've been a hot seller back in 2012.
even the T6 didn't sell all that well-and most of those were bought for hte trait, making them "Unicorns" on a map. I see more Vor'Cha skinned Torks, Negh'var/Negh'tevs, even Command BC's than Borts, and I'm actually able to play in 'prime time' now since I moved from 2nd shift to 3rd at work (Sleep in the morning and I've got all evening until nine PST now, sunday-through-thursday).
In 2012, I think PVP played far more on people's minds; KDF cruisers were often support ships, so the ability to pace faster raiders and raptors was key. The Bort can't do that, so the formed unit KDF teams ignored it, plus as you say most people had Fed alts that already worked that way.
However - back to the original point - the Bort still has unique strengths, it's a playable ship, even if not the definitive Klingon cruiser. IMO, only one ship has the aesthetics, agility, durability and weapon layout to do that; the problem is that ship is the Temporal D7.
And that's why they put the best Raider and best Battlecruiser in RNG boxes. Because despite appearances, they actually do know what the KDF playerbase wants, and will milk everything they can from it.
My First KDF character is a engineering Orion, 2nd an actual Klingon and the 3rd a Naussican. Diversify design some.Yes Naussicans don't build trek battlestars but Gorn and Orions make big ships. the Zilant and the Balaur type ships or the gorn (with a visual and graphical update), and a T6 Maurauder, War Barge, and Slave master for Orions.
Exactly. Trying to make it use DHC is dumb on multiple levels. It's like trying to use a batleth for a hammer... or vice versa... Exploit it's strengths, don't try to make it something it isn't.
Sooo.... you have fragmentary data, none of it based on actually attempting to personally use one?
The fun part is that if you REALLY want it to turn fast, Spec Pilot. With that mine have a pretty good turn rate for a space whale. And I would know, I've been flying space whales since before the Bort and Oddy prototypes were released. But unlike Oddy Bort has a cloak.
Anyways, the trick to flying space whales is planning ahead to force your enemies to come to you. It's really not hard given how breain-dead the AIs are...
actually, Mark, I DID try one-on tribble. when we were still able to DO that sort of thing...which cemented for me just how terribly BAD it was on a fundamental level.
In other words... You tried the T5 one... back before Pilot spec even existed. Go fly a Martok with Pilot Spec active, then tell me about how slow it is....
*raises hand* I have on my main. Fully maxed Pilot spec, as primary spec with 3 RCS consoles, to try and get the turnrate to "mediocre." And the Martok still groaned when it turned. Even with EP2E AND APO 1 going, running Aux2Bat(since I don't have Aux2ID), even with the T5 flagship consoles slotted. Even with the reputation trait slotted. The highest I got it, was around 50-60 degrees/second. In contrast, my T6 Fleet Negh'tev, with the same RCS consoles, and having dropped APO 1 for BOL3 or CRF 2, can push 90-100 degrees a second. If I slotted APO 1, no doubt I could squeeze more out of the Negh'tev. Believe me, I did try the Bortasqu', both T5-U(yeah, I bought the bundle), and the T6 Martok. Flew it for quite a while. Still fly it on some of my alts, because it fits their RP theme. I liked the look and bridge of the Bortasqu', with the three floors, the radioactive bacon, the stations, the feel of the disruptor cannon. But even going full ham with RCS consoles, and using engi abilities to make it more agile, still gives it a clunky feel.
If you're going to fly the Pleasure Barge, the only really "viable" cannons to throw on it, would be 8 turrets, or 4 single barrel cannons and 4 turrets. And if you want sticking power, Tholian Sticky Web console, Subspace Snare, Tractor Beam, and/or Subspace Jumper will be your best friend.
Comments
Your claims are not without substance, but are we not straying from the point. I believe it can be done, but you are right there are better ships out there for it then the Bortasqu' In fact this conversation got me looking at kdf ships tier six, specifically the Kurak. The mogh tier six variant. Right now my level of incompetence in overlooking this ship is high. I can not believe I overlooked the tactical layout of that ship or the five forward and three aft weapon slots. The mogh I was previously looking at was the tier five one, which seemed weak, but the tier six one has a hull of 50k. A solid ship. Though the op asked a question this thread has got me thinking and looking more closely at certain aspects.
The fun part is that if you REALLY want it to turn fast, Spec Pilot. With that mine have a pretty good turn rate for a space whale. And I would know, I've been flying space whales since before the Bort and Oddy prototypes were released.
Anyways, the trick to flying space whales is planning ahead to force your enemies to come to you. It's really not hard given how breain-dead the AIs are...
My character Tsin'xing
PUGs back in 2012/13; basically switched to running a carrier after that, and then gave up (on PVP) for the most part post-LOR.
I can't prove it, of course, but for a period the Bort seemed a viable PVP platform. The key was to pack enough wallop that you could kill during the brief window when you had a target in your frontal arc, and at that point in time the combo of the Bort's autocannon, 4 tac consoles, and Eng-mitigated BAO3 seemed very effective.
Even then the Tor'khat was a much better cruiser, but I've always had a soft spot for my Bort / Eng combo and it seems to deliver.
I admit that in performance terms the Kurak is better as an attack cruiser, but both it and the Mogh are rather meh as designs. The Negh'var is a brilliant design, but Cryptic have criminally saddled it with a 4:4 layout, which means if you try to run it as a head-on gunship it's borked. Same with the Vor'cha.
So I keep coming back to the Bortas'qu, which looks the part and plays the "mighty glacier" role very well - indeed, better than its Fed counterparts.
Command abilities are only great IMO if you're using torps, which is why it's rather nonsensical that they're mostly on lumbering heavy cruisers; the Vet Destroyers are a notable exception. With a Martok BC, I'd slot Aux to Structural Integrity III, EPTW3, RSP1 and EPTS1, bolstered by a trio of Damage Control Engineers. That gives near-continuous uptime on the EPTXs, A2SIF has it anyway, and RSP as an "Oh S&^!" card. IMO a good mix of offensive and defensive abilities.
All depends on how you build that Negh'var T6. I run EP2E1, Aux2Bat 1, EP2W2, RSP 3, Engi Team 1, Engi Team 2, and Aceton Beam 1.
Tetryon Weapons build, for almost all the tetryon nukes(just missing lobi store mines/console), along w/ a Sticky Web console in a sci slot as a uni Cat 1 boost. If I'm using a DBB build, BOL 3/BOL 2 and Tact Team 1x2. For cannons, I swap out BOL 3/BOL 2 for CRF 2/CRF 1, as well as the weapons to cannons.
It's all in how you want to test things out. You do have two loadout slots to play with.
The Negh'tev - or to be accurate the Negh'var - is a great canon design. The problem is that the visuals, with those massive underslung weapon mounts, scream for a forward-focussed weapons build, while the stats push you towards broadsiding. I have actually run the T6 Negh'tev a lot, but it was never entirely comfortable.
The Bort, OTOH, looks and flies as a mobile fortress, especially as an Engineer captain. It just works and is therefore fun for me.
"Mobile Fortress" or "Mobile Palace Barge" Since we have never seen the interior of a Bortasqu all we have to go on is the bridge. I do believe "Mobile Palace Barge" best describes the bridge.
You have it right. None of the KDF battlecruisers, regardless of tier, have a commander tactical slot. The highest that we can run is CSV 2, CRF 2, APO 1.
However, ships such as the Negh'var, the Kurak, and the Mogh do have the capability to support cannons, due to a higher turn rate than the gaudy palace barge of the Bortasqu'. Throw in a few fleet RCS consoles, as well as the conductive RCS with turn mod.
Until we get Dual Commander slot ships, that is how it's gonna be.
For Commander Tactical, you need an Escort or Raider, maybe a Destroyer, Warship and rarely, but sometimes,a Dreadnought or Dreadnought Carrier.
Maybe the Klingons should have a Warship in their ranks, something similar to that Ferengi ship? But for now they don't.
Yeah, the Bortas bridge is rather nuts - but no more so than the carrier bridges, and EVERY Klingon ship has an exposed bridge unit.
Gameplay wise, with an Eng captain, the mix of 5 Tac consoles + 8 weapon slots makes it a superlative FAW-spam boat, and there's a place for one of those in my lineout. Theme-wise, it belongs with a long tradition of big Klingon ships - FASA's L-24, ADB's B-10, and DS9's Mirror Negh'Var.
Point is it's a viable platform, and yes it works better as a cruiser than a battlecruiser; doesn't mean it isn't viable and indeed highly effective as a ship.
My character Tsin'xing
This is my feeling. If we were indeed commanding klingon warships. All of our weapon slots would be forward, except for the occasional aft torpedo bay. Come to think of it I dont think I have ever seen a klingon ship shoot anything other then a torpedo aft. As for the fed cruisers they are cruisers nothing more, klingon ships are warships. Tow distinct different styles. How be it we will never see the day where KDF ships are armed like klingon warships. As for the tactical bridge officer layout you can not defend that layout when cannons are paramount to a correct looking galaxy class starship for the Klingon player. Those who were here at launch know what I am speaking of.
As for the KDF carrier bridge layout, I have to disagree. The carrier bridge is allot slimmer and the center is built for battle, the only access is the front small view screen. To be fair it is quite long for a bridge. I picked up all the bridges a long time ago, as I was one of those people who love a good bridge/command center.
I have my issues with the devs I wont go so far as to say the KDF has received no improvements or content. Much has changed.
In 2012, I think PVP played far more on people's minds; KDF cruisers were often support ships, so the ability to pace faster raiders and raptors was key. The Bort can't do that, so the formed unit KDF teams ignored it, plus as you say most people had Fed alts that already worked that way.
However - back to the original point - the Bort still has unique strengths, it's a playable ship, even if not the definitive Klingon cruiser. IMO, only one ship has the aesthetics, agility, durability and weapon layout to do that; the problem is that ship is the Temporal D7.
My First KDF character is a engineering Orion, 2nd an actual Klingon and the 3rd a Naussican. Diversify design some.Yes Naussicans don't build trek battlestars but Gorn and Orions make big ships. the Zilant and the Balaur type ships or the gorn (with a visual and graphical update), and a T6 Maurauder, War Barge, and Slave master for Orions.
*raises hand* I have on my main. Fully maxed Pilot spec, as primary spec with 3 RCS consoles, to try and get the turnrate to "mediocre." And the Martok still groaned when it turned. Even with EP2E AND APO 1 going, running Aux2Bat(since I don't have Aux2ID), even with the T5 flagship consoles slotted. Even with the reputation trait slotted. The highest I got it, was around 50-60 degrees/second. In contrast, my T6 Fleet Negh'tev, with the same RCS consoles, and having dropped APO 1 for BOL3 or CRF 2, can push 90-100 degrees a second. If I slotted APO 1, no doubt I could squeeze more out of the Negh'tev. Believe me, I did try the Bortasqu', both T5-U(yeah, I bought the bundle), and the T6 Martok. Flew it for quite a while. Still fly it on some of my alts, because it fits their RP theme. I liked the look and bridge of the Bortasqu', with the three floors, the radioactive bacon, the stations, the feel of the disruptor cannon. But even going full ham with RCS consoles, and using engi abilities to make it more agile, still gives it a clunky feel.
If you're going to fly the Pleasure Barge, the only really "viable" cannons to throw on it, would be 8 turrets, or 4 single barrel cannons and 4 turrets. And if you want sticking power, Tholian Sticky Web console, Subspace Snare, Tractor Beam, and/or Subspace Jumper will be your best friend.