Then explain your position. A one word reply has no value.
Sure it has. It says all that needs to be said, all that can truthfully be said, about the claim that the EC cap affects inflation: that it's not true.
All that affects inflation is the amount of EC created vs the amount of EC destroyed.[/quote]
I disagree with you since the future market can be used as a foil in this situation and perception within that market does indeed have an impact on prices used on futures contracts to buy and sell commodities which ultimately affects the price of what people pay.
The futures market is basically about money chasing resources where the scarcer a commodity is perceived to be, the more it will cost to enter into a contract to purchase said commodity at a certain point in time. There is only so much money that is within a nation's economy so unless a country's credit rating has somehow taken a beating it's perceived purchasing power in general remain more or less constant. Unless of course, that nation's government decides to print money which causes inflationary pressure.
You say that the only thing that affects inflation is the amount of EC created vs the amount of EC destroyed. But how is EC actually "destroyed" in the game? Purchasing items from the Exchange does not destroy any EC. It is merely a transfer of wealth from one player to another. The only time from my own personal experience when the EC I spent is actually "destroyed" is when I do the Reputation Projects which require EC to start. That and if I decide I need to purchase various types of commodities to run Doff missions like Provisions and Shield Generators, but then again, my KDF characters can get them from raid missions and I can transfer those things to my other characters via the account bank.
I am not in a Fleet, so I do not know if there are any significant EC sinks there. I am guess no, but if there are, then it will only last until the project is completed. Can you provide a list of some of the major EC sinks in the game that actually destroys EC, thus completely removing them from the game's economy? The basic perception is very little of the actual EC that gets pumped into the game is actually "destroyed", most of the EC only gets transferred from player to player.
Unlike the real world there is an endless supply of EC so the amount of EC in the game is always increasing. This happens even if the population of STO players stagnates. As an example, take Tour The Galaxy. Regardless of how many characters do that mission on a daily basis all of them will get some EC after then mission ends in 15 minutes. Let's just say that missions consistently pays out 500k EC to each character. Let also say 100,000 characters run the mission on a daily basis. That means the mission pays out 50 billion EC per day. Is there some type of entity within the game with limited resources are paying out that amount of EC so when the funds are depleted for the day no more EC is given out? No. The game itself gives out that EC and of 200,000 characters play that mission in a single day then 100 Billion EC would be given out.
Thus, the increase in the EC Cap leads to the perception that the amount of EC in the game economy will increase because there are not enough EC sinks to actually "destroy" EC. That eventually leads to inflation of prices on the Exchange.
I think discussions about the caps would be much more useful without the jealous comments by people who have never come close to the caps and never will.
The caps affect everyone. Anyone that know how economics work would know that. So I would counter with this:
"I think discussions about the caps would be much more useful without the jealous comments by people who know nothing about economics."
+1 to this idea for me too. I'd also support a sales/trade tax when EC is involved as has been suggested in the thread.
A tax on these is just an EC sink and we already have one in place that many don't notice. When you recycle junk gear, you don't get full value, or even 50%...but sell to the vendors that buy them and you get 50%...that difference is a tax and removal of EC from that market that otherwise would exist were the items sold through the vendors. That's a pretty heft tax as well and directly impacts farming of gear in missions to sell for EC.
I disagree with you since the future market can be used as a foil in this situation and perception within that market does indeed have an impact on prices used on futures contracts to buy and sell commodities which ultimately affects the price of what people pay.
The futures market is basically about money chasing resources where the scarcer a commodity is perceived to be, the more it will cost to enter into a contract to purchase said commodity at a certain point in time. There is only so much money that is within a nation's economy so unless a country's credit rating has somehow taken a beating it's perceived purchasing power in general remain more or less constant. Unless of course, that nation's government decides to print money which causes inflationary pressure.
You say that the only thing that affects inflation is the amount of EC created vs the amount of EC destroyed. But how is EC actually "destroyed" in the game? Purchasing items from the Exchange does not destroy any EC. It is merely a transfer of wealth from one player to another. The only time from my own personal experience when the EC I spent is actually "destroyed" is when I do the Reputation Projects which require EC to start. That and if I decide I need to purchase various types of commodities to run Doff missions like Provisions and Shield Generators, but then again, my KDF characters can get them from raid missions and I can transfer those things to my other characters via the account bank.
I am not in a Fleet, so I do not know if there are any significant EC sinks there. I am guess no, but if there are, then it will only last until the project is completed. Can you provide a list of some of the major EC sinks in the game that actually destroys EC, thus completely removing them from the game's economy? The basic perception is very little of the actual EC that gets pumped into the game is actually "destroyed", most of the EC only gets transferred from player to player.
Unlike the real world there is an endless supply of EC so the amount of EC in the game is always increasing. This happens even if the population of STO players stagnates. As an example, take Tour The Galaxy. Regardless of how many characters do that mission on a daily basis all of them will get some EC after then mission ends in 15 minutes. Let's just say that missions consistently pays out 500k EC to each character. Let also say 100,000 characters run the mission on a daily basis. That means the mission pays out 50 billion EC per day. Is there some type of entity within the game with limited resources are paying out that amount of EC so when the funds are depleted for the day no more EC is given out? No. The game itself gives out that EC and of 200,000 characters play that mission in a single day then 100 Billion EC would be given out.
Thus, the increase in the EC Cap leads to the perception that the amount of EC in the game economy will increase because there are not enough EC sinks to actually "destroy" EC. That eventually leads to inflation of prices on the Exchange.
None of this has anything to do with anything in the game. The game is simple supply/demand. It's supply/demand when it comes to items meaning ships/weapons/consoles/traits etc. The price is also in part determined by the supply of EC, which is ever growing regardless of the cap. Raising the EC cap DOES NOT mean that there is more EC in the system. Broke players with 200,000 EC still have 200,000 EC in a game with 10 Billion EC caps.
Rich players with 50 Billion EC will STILL have 50 Billion EC in a game with 10 Billion EC caps. The only difference is that they can now shuffle that existing EC away from their 47 EC alts to a lower number of alts. The same amount of EC will be "created" by players playing content and EC farming. Raising the cap does NOTHING to change that and you have not demonstrated anything to contradict this statement in your post.
When you see "TRIBBLE" in my posts, it's because I manually typed "TRIBBLE" and censored myself.
The fact that we are asking for a cap lift is pretty solid evidence that we actually need an EC sink. Not crazy about the idea of taxes on sales and trades, but if people are building up 47 EC alts to skirt the current cap, they need a sink to suck all that EC out of their wallets.
The fact that we are asking for a cap lift is pretty solid evidence that we actually need an EC sink. Not crazy about the idea of taxes on sales and trades, but if people are building up 47 EC alts to skirt the current cap, they need a sink to suck all that EC out of their wallets.
Yup a sink is definitely needed IMO. Fleet upgrading and buying junk from vendors isn't enough of a sink. Even a 1% tax would make a massive possibly damaging difference in the EC supply of the economy. I suggested a 2.5% tax earlier but if a tax were even viable, only @borticuscryptic would be qualified to research and determine what the rate should be.
When you see "TRIBBLE" in my posts, it's because I manually typed "TRIBBLE" and censored myself.
@repetitiveepic how about you actually explain why you want to be able why you want to be able to raise your EC cap limit to beyond 1 billion? You state it is a quality of life issue. Just how is it so, because you are limited to how much you can store at one time?
I am pretty sure I did explain it in one of my posts, but I will explain it again.
It is cumbersome and time consuming to have to squirrel EC away on a bunch of different toons, especially since the account bank only lets you move 500m ec at once.
Twice now I have been going through my alts and discovered large sums of ec forgotten on seldom-used alts. In both cases that EC could have been profitably invested if I had remembered where it was at the right time.
It's annoying to have to manage ec vs exchange listings as well.
I assume the money you're squirreling away is for the chance that there is something that the devs put out that you might want, something that rarely seems to happen in the game nowadays. I'm glad I never squirrel away money.
I have long lobbied for a special device, perhaps a Veteran Medal or something similar, which is sold by an NPC for one billion ec, and causes nearby players to turn and salute the owner when activated.
I myself would buy at least one of them immediately, and I know many others who would buy them at once or else feel compelled to buy them eventually.
I remember reading that suggestion in TTC. It's a good idea.
What do you think about eliminating Transwarp cooldowns in favor of adding EC costs associated with each transwarp. For the sake of argument, say 25,000-50,000.
When you see "TRIBBLE" in my posts, it's because I manually typed "TRIBBLE" and censored myself.
Yup, items are meant to be sold on the exchange, but are sold on the black trading market instead.
I don't blame the players, I blame Cryptic for allowing the exploit to go on for so long.
We no longer need the trade system to send items or EC between characters, as we have an account bank.
If you want to sell an item to another player, the exchange is there for you as it always has been.
The only reason items go above the exchange limit, is because the players price gouge and they then move to the black market.
Would probably stop the gold sellers from selling EC and ships too.
If what you said was true, a trade window would not have been included in the game.
A trade window is included, so you can't possibly be telling the truth...
A trade window has been a part of the game from the get go, when there was no other way to exchange items between characters or players.
It is a redundant part of the game that should be removed, as it is quite clearly being used to support a black market for certain items.
The fact that Cryptic have not removed it yet, is irrelevant. Items are meant to be sold on the exchange, not outside it in a black market.
As I said, I don't blame the players for using the exploit, but rather Cryptic for allowing and even creating items they knew full well would go straight to it..
Hell, by not removing it, Cryptic themselves are enabling the gold sellers to continue!
I would be ok with having the account bank expanding by 500mil especially now that i got those lockbox ships two months ago and being rich now makes a difference.
You suddenly have an opinion on the capital gains tax, don't you?
Yup, items are meant to be sold on the exchange, but are sold on the black trading market instead.
I don't blame the players, I blame Cryptic for allowing the exploit to go on for so long.
We no longer need the trade system to send items or EC between characters, as we have an account bank.
If you want to sell an item to another player, the exchange is there for you as it always has been.
The only reason items go above the exchange limit, is because the players price gouge and they then move to the black market.
Would probably stop the gold sellers from selling EC and ships too.
If what you said was true, a trade window would not have been included in the game.
A trade window is included, so you can't possibly be telling the truth...
A trade window has been a part of the game from the get go, when there was no other way to exchange items between characters or players.
It is a redundant part of the game that should be removed, as it is quite clearly being used to support a black market for certain items.
The fact that Cryptic have not removed it yet, is irrelevant. Items are meant to be sold on the exchange, not outside it in a black market.
As I said, I don't blame the players for using the exploit, but rather Cryptic for allowing and even creating items they knew full well would go straight to it..
Hell, by not removing it, Cryptic themselves are enabling the gold sellers to continue!
I can't even begin to wrap my brain around what has gone wrong here.
It's so bizarrely outlandish.
It's not even internally consistent. Trade windows aren't required to trade ec between players. You can do it with the exchange.
You're just having your fun aren't you? Fess up.
Isn't it just wrong.
Exactly, thank you for supporting the removal of the trade window. The exchange is indeed the right place to sell items!
I am all for this to go forward after the other projects which affect a larger portion of the player base. Since probably only 2-3% of the player base are hindered by this cap and a good 15-18% are suffering due to lack of ships raise the cap after the KDF and Roms get their needed ships.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I have long lobbied for a special device, perhaps a Veteran Medal or something similar, which is sold by an NPC for one billion ec, and causes nearby players to turn and salute the owner when activated.
I myself would buy at least one of them immediately, and I know many others who would buy them at once or else feel compelled to buy them eventually.
I remember reading that suggestion in TTC. It's a good idea.
What do you think about eliminating Transwarp cooldowns in favor of adding EC costs associated with each transwarp. For the sake of argument, say 25,000-50,000.
The game already has cooldownless EC transwarps, in that exact price range no less. The game also has cooldownless dilithium transwarps. Why is it whenever currency sinks come up, someone always suggests transwarp fees?
I'm sure Cryptic can come up with something to sell if they want to. Just like they did the 2 million dil costumes a while back. I just hope they don't make it Feds only next time.
Very lively market. Can't tell you what prices are on the Console Exchanges but on the PC one they are running about 5.4 Million EC each.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
You say that the only thing that affects inflation is the amount of EC created vs the amount of EC destroyed. But how is EC actually "destroyed" in the game? Purchasing items from the Exchange does not destroy any EC. It is merely a transfer of wealth from one player to another. The only time from my own personal experience when the EC I spent is actually "destroyed" is when I do the Reputation Projects which require EC to start. That and if I decide I need to purchase various types of commodities to run Doff missions like Provisions and Shield Generators, but then again, my KDF characters can get them from raid missions and I can transfer those things to my other characters via the account bank.
I am not in a Fleet, so I do not know if there are any significant EC sinks there. I am guess no, but if there are, then it will only last until the project is completed. Can you provide a list of some of the major EC sinks in the game that actually destroys EC, thus completely removing them from the game's economy? The basic perception is very little of the actual EC that gets pumped into the game is actually "destroyed", most of the EC only gets transferred from player to player.
That's correct. Very little EC is destroyed because there are currently very few worthwhile things you can buy with it, and none of them expensive enough to consume large quantities of EC. That's why there is inflation, because the amount of EC created vastly outpaces the amount destroyed. It just builds up and never goes away.
Gold Farming sites sell those keys for real life dollars (much cheaper then buying them in the C-Store). These sites must be doing fairly well flipping Keys judging by my in-game email. Which consistently has several new Gold Farming site offers a day.
Seems legit, ya ?
So let's go ahead and give these players unlimited EC banks.
Let's make their life even easier.
Comments
All that affects inflation is the amount of EC created vs the amount of EC destroyed.[/quote]
I disagree with you since the future market can be used as a foil in this situation and perception within that market does indeed have an impact on prices used on futures contracts to buy and sell commodities which ultimately affects the price of what people pay.
The futures market is basically about money chasing resources where the scarcer a commodity is perceived to be, the more it will cost to enter into a contract to purchase said commodity at a certain point in time. There is only so much money that is within a nation's economy so unless a country's credit rating has somehow taken a beating it's perceived purchasing power in general remain more or less constant. Unless of course, that nation's government decides to print money which causes inflationary pressure.
You say that the only thing that affects inflation is the amount of EC created vs the amount of EC destroyed. But how is EC actually "destroyed" in the game? Purchasing items from the Exchange does not destroy any EC. It is merely a transfer of wealth from one player to another. The only time from my own personal experience when the EC I spent is actually "destroyed" is when I do the Reputation Projects which require EC to start. That and if I decide I need to purchase various types of commodities to run Doff missions like Provisions and Shield Generators, but then again, my KDF characters can get them from raid missions and I can transfer those things to my other characters via the account bank.
I am not in a Fleet, so I do not know if there are any significant EC sinks there. I am guess no, but if there are, then it will only last until the project is completed. Can you provide a list of some of the major EC sinks in the game that actually destroys EC, thus completely removing them from the game's economy? The basic perception is very little of the actual EC that gets pumped into the game is actually "destroyed", most of the EC only gets transferred from player to player.
Unlike the real world there is an endless supply of EC so the amount of EC in the game is always increasing. This happens even if the population of STO players stagnates. As an example, take Tour The Galaxy. Regardless of how many characters do that mission on a daily basis all of them will get some EC after then mission ends in 15 minutes. Let's just say that missions consistently pays out 500k EC to each character. Let also say 100,000 characters run the mission on a daily basis. That means the mission pays out 50 billion EC per day. Is there some type of entity within the game with limited resources are paying out that amount of EC so when the funds are depleted for the day no more EC is given out? No. The game itself gives out that EC and of 200,000 characters play that mission in a single day then 100 Billion EC would be given out.
Thus, the increase in the EC Cap leads to the perception that the amount of EC in the game economy will increase because there are not enough EC sinks to actually "destroy" EC. That eventually leads to inflation of prices on the Exchange.
The caps affect everyone. Anyone that know how economics work would know that. So I would counter with this:
"I think discussions about the caps would be much more useful without the jealous comments by people who know nothing about economics."
Lul
A tax on these is just an EC sink and we already have one in place that many don't notice. When you recycle junk gear, you don't get full value, or even 50%...but sell to the vendors that buy them and you get 50%...that difference is a tax and removal of EC from that market that otherwise would exist were the items sold through the vendors. That's a pretty heft tax as well and directly impacts farming of gear in missions to sell for EC.
Rich players with 50 Billion EC will STILL have 50 Billion EC in a game with 10 Billion EC caps. The only difference is that they can now shuffle that existing EC away from their 47 EC alts to a lower number of alts. The same amount of EC will be "created" by players playing content and EC farming. Raising the cap does NOTHING to change that and you have not demonstrated anything to contradict this statement in your post.
I assume the money you're squirreling away is for the chance that there is something that the devs put out that you might want, something that rarely seems to happen in the game nowadays. I'm glad I never squirrel away money.
I remember reading that suggestion in TTC. It's a good idea.
What do you think about eliminating Transwarp cooldowns in favor of adding EC costs associated with each transwarp. For the sake of argument, say 25,000-50,000.
A trade window has been a part of the game from the get go, when there was no other way to exchange items between characters or players.
It is a redundant part of the game that should be removed, as it is quite clearly being used to support a black market for certain items.
The fact that Cryptic have not removed it yet, is irrelevant. Items are meant to be sold on the exchange, not outside it in a black market.
As I said, I don't blame the players for using the exploit, but rather Cryptic for allowing and even creating items they knew full well would go straight to it..
Hell, by not removing it, Cryptic themselves are enabling the gold sellers to continue!
As a matter of fact i do.
Isn't it just wrong.
Exactly, thank you for supporting the removal of the trade window. The exchange is indeed the right place to sell items!
So glad you're on board!
How on earth does one by keys with EC?
Still waiting to be able to use forum titles
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I'm sure Cryptic can come up with something to sell if they want to. Just like they did the 2 million dil costumes a while back. I just hope they don't make it Feds only next time.
Thanks - Didn't realise they could be sold on there lol - (Noob Xboxer gonna go back to his corner now)
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
That's correct. Very little EC is destroyed because there are currently very few worthwhile things you can buy with it, and none of them expensive enough to consume large quantities of EC. That's why there is inflation, because the amount of EC created vastly outpaces the amount destroyed. It just builds up and never goes away.
It has nothing to do with caps.
Gold Farming sites sell those keys for real life dollars (much cheaper then buying them in the C-Store). These sites must be doing fairly well flipping Keys judging by my in-game email. Which consistently has several new Gold Farming site offers a day.
Seems legit, ya ?
So let's go ahead and give these players unlimited EC banks.
Let's make their life even easier.