I hope they are at least seeing the thread. This is great general discussion and feedback and it would be a shame if they are not even reading it themselves. I know hundreds of others have looked at the thread so far and it keeps counting up.
ThreadS. There's been a lot of talk about this decision. On one hand, I see the point that the Dev's have about not being able to justify doing Caitians like they looked in the animated series, but on the other...the fact that they've included a lot of things that aren't in TOS - we never saw Andorians or Tellarites on Starfleet crews for example, nor were the new ships they've added ever on the show - that it does seem that there's a flaw in their logic.
Nevertheless, I think that they can't bend on this due to the fact that they'd just face more "why aren't such and such species available to play in TOS?!" arguments, and it's getting late in the game to start dropping new things into the development pipeline anyway.
I'm fine just being able to play in the TOS era honestly. Though I'd love to have me a Caitian with hair finally, even if their legs don't bend the right way.
There's just 4 or 5 other options though that could be added that's already playable in the game that they don't have to make any changes to. They don't have to make Caitians look like they do in the animated series or the movies. Making them playable would make people happy enough. I personally really want to make a TOS Trill. I would really enjoy that.
I don't think I'd call choosing the Founding Four races of the Federation to be arbitrary. It'd be nice to see a larger breadth of species, as by the time of AoY, the Federation had long grown past the Founding Four. However, if they are going to keep it to a small number of races, the original signing four isn't a bad selection. Very much not arbitrary.
I think it's more the justification. With a couple of simple criteria you can state exactly why Human, Vulcan, Andorian, and Tellarite are the only choices for the AoY faction. But to say why those are in place you have to explain that showing what TOS didn't film isn't something you want to do. Well and good, that's a creative decision and one that makes sense for a TOS tribute expansion. But you can't maintain that explanation as a consistent rule with Tellarites and Andorians serving with Vulcans and Humans as a balanced, four species crew. That was never a part of TOS, and yet the compromise is made to expand playable options (which benefits gameplay, customization, and backstory, all good things.)
Why stop there? Why not increase the playable options still further (using existing assets, which we know from later series and movies should be there) and address what's looking like a significant weakness of the TOS faction as compared to the standard FED (which, minus the episode arc and old ESD hub, has everything the TOS faction does but with many more character choices)?
Well it seems to boil down to "this is the way Cryptic wants it to be," hence arbitrary. And that's not really a functional problem with AoY, it'll work just fine. But it could work better (for the same purpose) with more options.
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I don't think I'd call choosing the Founding Four races of the Federation to be arbitrary. It'd be nice to see a larger breadth of species, as by the time of AoY, the Federation had long grown past the Founding Four. However, if they are going to keep it to a small number of races, the original signing four isn't a bad selection. Very much not arbitrary.
I think it's more the justification. With a couple of simple criteria you can state exactly why Human, Vulcan, Andorian, and Tellarite are the only choices for the AoY faction. But to say why those are in place you have to explain that showing what TOS didn't film isn't something you want to do. Well and good, that's a creative decision and one that makes sense for a TOS tribute expansion. But you can't maintain that explanation as a consistent rule with Tellarites and Andorians serving with Vulcans and Humans as a balanced, four species crew. That was never a part of TOS, and yet the compromise is made to expand playable options (which benefits gameplay, customization, and backstory, all good things.)
Why stop there? Why not increase the playable options still further (using existing assets, which we know from later series and movies should be there) and address what's looking like a significant weakness of the TOS faction as compared to the standard FED (which, minus the episode arc and old ESD hub, has everything the TOS faction does but with many more character choices)?
Well it seems to boil down to "this is the way Cryptic wants it to be," hence arbitrary. And that's not really a functional problem with AoY, it'll work just fine. But it could work better (for the same purpose) with more options.
Yeah, I personally think they should have at least included Ithenites and Violaceans.
Yeah, I personally think they should have at least included Ithenites and Violaceans.
That would probably be the most complete solution. People have generally been asking for more of the existing FED/TOS species but the problem is always going to be the FED will have more choices (inevitably something's going to have to be restricted, ex. Talaxian, Klingon.) But if the TOS faction has unique options then regardless of what else isn't available there's going to be some redeeming creative angles to explore for them (and them alone).
But the question is "would it be any easier to add purple people with the Babel hair options than Caitians, Saurians, or Trill?" We don't know, but we can at least throw it out there.
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I am no longer opposed to any particular inclusion...it doesn't look like TOS anymore, anyhow.
Seriously. An invasion armada (and not one wave) from the future swoops in and takes on a couple of 23rd century ships + one from the future? I would prefer subtle and tangential use of the future threat, but I recognize that kinda breaks the game aspect, if you are looking to combine the factions.
I will say that I did love the earlier missions...the original Star Trek was my first and always favourite, so thank you to the devs for giving me a small slice.
Wel, the purple people they already made NPCs for so obviously they have the conceptual aspects finished.
I'm thinking more the back-end and traits. From what cryptic has said in the past new playable species are quite work intensive and it wasn't clear from those statements that they just were talking about new textures and head attachments.
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Wel, the purple people they already made NPCs for so obviously they have the conceptual aspects finished.
I'm thinking more the back-end and traits. From what cryptic has said in the past new playable species are quite work intensive and it wasn't clear from those statements that they just were talking about new textures and head attachments.
Yeah, I didn't mention that, but I pondered it. What would they have for racial traits? No idea. We know too little about them.
The devs' stance was not "canon", it was style. They wanted a TOS style and as others in this thread stated, Caitans have three styles.
TAS and Zero has already stated that that style fits better with the comic book styled world of Champions Online
TMP, I really want to see this style used more...by current era Starfleet Caitians, they looked very fluffy back then.
And what we have in STO right now.
As for Trills, making them part of the TOS Starfleet faction would be like taking a defiant, slapping on a Connie-like material, and saying it fits with the TOS Starfleet faction.
Is four races not enough? Maybe but I would rather have TOS Starfleet look and play like its own thing than it becoming the same new Starfleet that we have been playing for years.
The devs' stance was not "canon", it was style. They wanted a TOS style and as others in this thread stated, Caitans have three styles.
TAS and Zero has already stated that that style fits better with the comic book styled world of Champions Online
TMP, I really want to see this style used more...by current era Starfleet Caitians, they looked very fluffy back then.
And what we have in STO right now.
As for Trills, making them part of the TOS Starfleet faction would be like taking a defiant, slapping on a Connie-like material, and saying it fits with the TOS Starfleet faction.
Is four races not enough? Maybe but I would rather have TOS Starfleet look and play like its own thing than it becoming the same new Starfleet that we have been playing for years.
To be fair unless they change their mind and make the TOS head/facial options for Tellarites and Andorians free, it's going to feel like the Mirror Universe episodes of Enterprise for almost everyone with Enterprise Andorian and Tellarites running around. And from what it looks like now it's pretty much just an alternate start to the Federation players that's pretty much just a new tutorial. Or that's the largest complaint next to lack of race options. They should at least give alien gen to the TOS Federation starting experience if nothing else.
The devs' stance was not "canon", it was style. They wanted a TOS style and as others in this thread stated, Caitans have three styles.
TAS and Zero has already stated that that style fits better with the comic book styled world of Champions Online
TMP, I really want to see this style used more...by current era Starfleet Caitians, they looked very fluffy back then.
And what we have in STO right now.
Those styles are all compatible with one another. STO and TMP caitians look identical (apart one's set in a physical medium and the other virtual, we even have the correct facial hair options) and we're only missing one hair option to bring M'ress to STO. If you want to argue that "well, doing more things will be difficult!" you should probably consider that the entire operation of bringing TOS to STO through AOY requires some effort and as it looks right now some of that is going to be undermined by a stifling set of starting races which you can't justify based on the original 1960's production because we never saw those species as part of one crew in TOS (prime universe.)
Cryptic's call is a novel creative decision and though it's not going to break AOY it is going to make it less useful. Expanding playable species (in one way or another, we've discussed a number of choices here including other species from Journey to Babel) to bring the TOS faction closer to the par set by the KDF/ROM/FED would be advisable.
They should at least give alien gen to the TOS Federation starting experience if nothing else.
That would be a technical fix but of all the species that could be plausibly added Aliens are probably the most problematic. To make them fit you would need to lop off large portions of the tailor (else risk the first TOS/Dominion cross-over ) and at that point you do have to ask the question just what we're really gaining out of that.
It'd still be something, which is better than the nothing-plus-four we have now. But...if we're to get more options I'd personally prefer it to be from defined species.
Wel, the purple people they already made NPCs for so obviously they have the conceptual aspects finished.
I'm thinking more the back-end and traits. From what cryptic has said in the past new playable species are quite work intensive and it wasn't clear from those statements that they just were talking about new textures and head attachments.
Yeah, I didn't mention that, but I pondered it. What would they have for racial traits? No idea. We know too little about them.
Well cryptic has done a pretty good job over the years of convincingly filling in the blanks. If it really becomes a question though what you could do is create a set of traits simply based on them being in conference at Babel (focusing on support and team buffs.)
Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
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The devs' stance was not "canon", it was style. They wanted a TOS style and as others in this thread stated, Caitans have three styles.
TAS and Zero has already stated that that style fits better with the comic book styled world of Champions Online
TMP, I really want to see this style used more...by current era Starfleet Caitians, they looked very fluffy back then.
And what we have in STO right now.
Those styles are all compatible with one another. STO and TMP caitians look identical (apart one's set in a physical medium and the other virtual, we even have the correct facial hair options) and we're only missing one hair option to bring M'ress to STO. If you want to argue that "well, doing more things will be difficult!" you should probably consider that the entire operation of bringing TOS to STO through AOY requires some effort and as it looks right now some of that is going to be undermined by a stifling set of starting races which you can't justify based on the original 1960's production because we never saw those species as part of one crew in TOS (prime universe.)
Cryptic's call is a novel creative decision and though it's not going to break AOY it is going to make it less useful. Expanding playable species (in one way or another, we've discussed a number of choices here including other species from Journey to Babel) to bring the TOS faction closer to the par set by the KDF/ROM/FED would be advisable.
As I said the post that you only quoted part of.
Is four races not enough? Maybe but I would rather have TOS Starfleet look and play like its own thing than it becoming the same new Starfleet that we have been playing for years.
So yes, I agree that four races is not enough for some people but I also agree that a TOS Starfleet faction should be a TOS styled faction should have a strong focus on the TOS style, not TAS, TMP, or what we already have in STO.
Also another point I would like to bring up
the TOS faction closer to the par set by the KDF/ROM/FED
The Republic only four races, one of which is only a lts reward.
The Republic only four races, one of which is only a lts reward.
Including alien which has practically limitless permutations. That really did get around the question of limited customization options which arose when the tribble builds of LoR just had Reman/Romulan. Considering the aesthetic view this time that solution probably isn't the most appropriate, but something nicely complimentary to the current four, like Caitians, would do the trick.
Is four races not enough? Maybe but I would rather have TOS Starfleet look and play like its own thing than it becoming the same new Starfleet that we have been playing for years.
So yes, I agree that four races is not enough for some people but I also agree that a TOS Starfleet faction should be a TOS styled faction should have a strong focus on the TOS style, not TAS, TMP, or what we already have in STO.
FYI
we've discussed a number of choices here including other species from Journey to Babel
[From earlier in this thread]
That would probably be the most complete solution. People have generally been asking for more of the existing FED/TOS species but the problem is always going to be the FED will have more choices (inevitably something's going to have to be restricted, ex. Talaxian, Klingon.) But if the TOS faction has unique options then regardless of what else isn't available there's going to be some redeeming creative angles to explore for them (and them alone).
But it's worth elaborating on this point that entirely new species may not be practical to develop for AOY. Cryptic's made some comments in the past that adding new playable species is an especially difficult process, possibly due to back-end complications (but that's simply inference).
So making do with existing STO species setups may be the best way to address AOY's deficiencies in a core are of RPG gaming (character creation), should that indeed be an easier option.
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The Republic only four races, one of which is only a lts reward.
Including alien which has practically limitless permutations. That really did get around the question of limited customization options which arose when the tribble builds of LoR just had Reman/Romulan. Considering the aesthetic view this time that solution probably isn't the most appropriate, but something nicely complimentary to the current four, like Caitians, would do the trick.
Is four races not enough? Maybe but I would rather have TOS Starfleet look and play like its own thing than it becoming the same new Starfleet that we have been playing for years.
So yes, I agree that four races is not enough for some people but I also agree that a TOS Starfleet faction should be a TOS styled faction should have a strong focus on the TOS style, not TAS, TMP, or what we already have in STO.
FYI
we've discussed a number of choices here including other species from Journey to Babel
[From earlier in this thread]
That would probably be the most complete solution. People have generally been asking for more of the existing FED/TOS species but the problem is always going to be the FED will have more choices (inevitably something's going to have to be restricted, ex. Talaxian, Klingon.) But if the TOS faction has unique options then regardless of what else isn't available there's going to be some redeeming creative angles to explore for them (and them alone).
But it's worth elaborating on this point that entirely new species may not be practical to develop for AOY. Cryptic's made some comments in the past that adding new playable species is an especially difficult process, possibly due to back-end complications (but that's simply inference).
So making do with existing STO species setups may be the best way to address AOY's deficiencies in a core are of RPG gaming (character creation), should that indeed be an easier option.
You say the lack of race choices is a deficiency in one of the cores of RPG gaming, your idea to fix it targets another key part of RPGs. The world
Lets say someone finally makes a new Superhero MMO and choose Adam West's Batman as the style of the game. Pretty cheesy and not really what superheroics look like to most people today. If someone wanted a blood magic power set that let them pop foes and create a shower of gore out of them, would the lack of this power set be bad for the game? I don't think so because the devs has chosen a style for the world.
Cryptic is masters when it come to creating character creators, the freedom they give you in creating your captain, adventurer, or superhero is unrivaled in the MMO market but even they limit themselves. To what they can do within the worlds they create and the world they live in.
Factions are more than what they have, they are the things they don't. The fact that cloaks are pretty rare on Starfleet ships says as much about what Starfleet than their uniforms.
I don't think so because the devs has chosen a style for the world..
Which as we've been over time again is:
1. Inconsistent with cryptic's logic (we've never seen this combination of species as part of a single TOS starfleet crew.)
2. Non-canon (the franchise didn't end with TOS, and STO is set from a 2410 perspective)
3. Coming at a direct cost to core game aspects (ie. RPG character creation, it's what the genre is named for.)
(and the alternative is hardly blood magic)
You can take the purely artistic stand (putting all that aside and tautologically justifying Cryptics choice by what it is) but to do so you have to also take the unreasonable stance that it's the be-all, end-all of the game (keyword: game). It isn't, it has to be balanced against other factors unless all you want to end up with is that individually subjective artistic statement (which in itself is meaningless. To have an impact art needs to work with, rather than against, its medium and audience.)
Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
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I don't think so because the devs has chosen a style for the world..
Which as we've been over time again is:
1. Is inconsistent with cryptic's own logic (we've never seen this combination of species as part of a single TOS starfleet crew.)
2. Non-canon (the franchise didn't end with TOS)
3. Coming at a direct cost to game mechanics (ie. RPG character creation, it's what the genre is named for.)
(and the alternative is hardly blood magic)
You can make the purely artistic stand (putting all that aside and tautologically justifying Cryptics choice by what it is) but to do so you have to also take the unreasonable stance that it's the be-all, end-all of the game. It isn't, it has to be balanced against other factors unless all you want to end up with is that individually subjective artistic statement (which in itself is meaningless. To have an impact art needs to work with, rather than against, its medium.)
1. You're pushing canon when it was a style choice. These are races known during TOS's run to the viewers.
2. See one
3. Role Playing Games and Character Creation does not seen to be the same words.
(But does clash with the style of the setting)
Another point, TOS Starfleet is not a full faction, much like the Romulans they have solid limits built in because of the nature of the faction and before you bring up Republic aliens again remember, they much like the Carddie lockbox was, a mistake. The storyline for them was really built for a Romulan/Reman point of view in a sense like the TOS faction more in an art style sense then story but still. And in my life I have learned repeating mistakes only create more and generally worst mistakes.
1. You're pushing canon when it was a style choice. These are races known during TOS's run to the viewers.
2. See one
3. Role Playing Games and Character Creation does not seen to be the same words.
Another point, TOS Starfleet is not a full faction, much like the Romulans they have solid limits built in because of the nature of the faction and before you bring up Republic aliens again remember, they much like the Carddie lockbox was, a mistake. The storyline for them was really built for a Romulan/Reman point of view in a sense like the TOS faction more in an art style sense then story but still. And in my life I have learned repeating mistakes only create more and generally worst mistakes.
1. One isn't actually a question of canon, it's a question of style.
The balanced four species starfleet crews of AOY wasn't shown on screen in TOS. That means its Cryptic's own creative extrapolation. So, if it really is just an arbitrary style (see. previous discussion) why limit the options to four? Compromising on a few more would bring tangible gameplay benefits, establish a visual style that is just as valid as the previous (no single art form is innately superior to any other, that relates heavily to the point of art), and (in the case of TMP/VH/UC/TNG/DS9/ENT species) it would certainly appeal to those who view the movies and subsequent TV shows as having an impact on the world of TOS.
2. World building requires a [roughly] consistent backstory. You can't dismiss canon in favor of style without completely throwing your point about factions out the window.
3. Roles require characters. Characters do not require worlds (stories can be staged with them alone.) Therefore the single defining feature of the RPG genre is character creation. Without it and you have something else, an action game, RTS, or FPS depending on what the gameplay is. That may incidentally have also some kind of world-building without making it an RPG [see. the Starcraft or Halo universes] as again the style or vision of the setting isn't the key factor here.
And I'm not going to let you continue on to another point because it's very much getting well beyond the limits of what you've previously stated as your opinion (and productive discussion).
Let's have some more options, preferably original to TOS, and though you may be uncomfortable with the conceivable alternatives there's a reasonable amount of stated support from those who don't share your viewpoint.
Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
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1. You're pushing canon when it was a style choice. These are races known during TOS's run to the viewers.
2. See one
3. Role Playing Games and Character Creation does not seen to be the same words.
Another point, TOS Starfleet is not a full faction, much like the Romulans they have solid limits built in because of the nature of the faction and before you bring up Republic aliens again remember, they much like the Carddie lockbox was, a mistake. The storyline for them was really built for a Romulan/Reman point of view in a sense like the TOS faction more in an art style sense then story but still. And in my life I have learned repeating mistakes only create more and generally worst mistakes.
1. One isn't actually a question of canon, it's a question of style.
The balanced four species starfleet crews of AOY wasn't shown on screen in TOS. That means its Cryptic's own creative extrapolation. So, if it really is just an arbitrary style (see. previous discussion) why limit the options to four? Compromising on a few more would bring tangible gameplay benefits, establish a visual style that is just as valid as the previous (no single art form is innately superior to any other, that relates heavily to the point of art), and (in the case of TMP/VH/UC/TNG/DS9/ENT species) it would certainly appeal to those who view the movies and subsequent TV shows as having an impact on the world of TOS.
2. World building requires a [roughly] consistent backstory. You can't dismiss canon in favor of style without completely throwing your point about factions out the window.
3. Roles require characters. Characters do not require worlds (stories can be staged with them alone.) Therefore the single defining feature of the RPG genre is character creation. Without it and you have something else, an action game, RTS, or FPS depending on what the gameplay is. That may incidentally have also some kind of world-building without making it an RPG [see. the Starcraft or Halo universes] as again the style or vision of the setting isn't the key factor here.
And I'm not going to let you evade on to another point because it's very much getting well beyond the limits of what you've previously stated as your opinion (and productive discussion).
Let's have some more options, preferably original to TOS, and though you may be uncomfortable with the conceivable alternatives there's a reasonable amount of stated support from those who don't share your viewpoint.
1. The limit from what I can see is pretty simple. STO is a generally a mish mash of every kind of Trek you want all at once. The TOS Starfleet faction is meant to narrow down that mish mash into one point. (Yet another side topic, I kind of wish the bulk of STO did the same) When you first start creating a TOS Starfleet character you're welcomed by the races you remember from TOS, that is Cryptic's goal (as I see it and which I'm willing to say I could be wrong)
2.You already covered that. "Roughly" also if needed point 1 again. Also canon has not been dismissed completely
3. Roles require characters, role playing games require worlds for the characters to interact with. Also you can have a RTS, FPS, or an action game with role playing, so I don't think the term should be decided based off the number of races you have to choose from.
Truth be told I don't care much for TOS, I think the Connie is one of the most poorly made ships in the history of science fiction (the TIE line from Star Wars take first). But AoY is being built as a love letter to the Star Trek that started it all, to the first show, crew, and ship that without them we would not have the Caitians or Trills that we have now. And out of respect and understanding (the other part of Star Trek that people seem to pass over for IDIC) I'm want to see it the letter written, unedited and from the heart.
Also as I have said before, I agree there should be more races but I would rather see TOS races than just letting Cryptic do a simple cut and paste job.
So whats the problem with Caitians?
They are a canon race. Shown in offical, non-extended universe media. And they are confirmed to be part of the federation.
Heck, the current Caitian model look almost exactly like the TWOK/TOS movies era Caitians(and even the animated series Caitians to an extend, minus the legs and diffrent hair style), we clearly saw two caitains admirals in "Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home".
Also those two admiral caitians seen would have been captains or something the TOS series era to be admirals at this point.
Tellerites looked slightly diffrent in TOS, so Caitians should aswell but they can't come up with a design.
But Caitians are fine as they look. And they look almost like they did in the movie era.
Even Andorians and Vulcans have barely changed since the TOS era(different antenna placement, and less eyeshadow). So why should Caitians?
So thier looks isn't a problem.
Thier canonicity isn't a problem.
So whats the problem?
But we never saw them as part of starfleet in the TOS series!
Yeah cause Kirk had a mostly human crew. And we didn't see much of other ships and thier crews either.
Even Picard had a mostly human looking crew!
One of the books tell how Riker was the first Captain to truely have a mixed crew that didn't have a majoraty of same race as the captain.
But okay then, lets turn this around and ask how many Andorians or Tellerites did we see in Starfleet uniform in the TOS series? How many Vulcans beside Spock?(who btw joined cause of his half human side).
Not asking if they were part of the federation, we know they are. Asking if they were even shown to be part of starfleet and wearing a starfleet uniform. Cause right now, I don't remember any, they were always shown wearing thier own uniforms.
But its not canon to the TOS series canon!
Neither is this entire expansion.
The peremesis is based around the Temporal War, Daniels, and the Na'kul.. all things from ENT
The Deadalus is from the animated series, and miniature model on a table in one of the other series.
A whole bunch of other ships never shown in the show either.
And someone mentioned Female Captains was never shown.
From the begining, this game itself isn't based only on Hard-Canon(only the series and movies), its also based on soft-canon(expanded universe, stuff from some comics and books). The game itself is soft-canon!
There is a lot of things that should be removed from this game if we start on only wanting hard-canon items.
Most ships should be removed. Aswell should most uniforms, Vulcans and Romulans having access to so many diffrent hairstyles, most playable races, short traveltime between worlds... to name a few things that would be removed.
So please, add other races than the founding 4.
Caitians and Saurians I know were around that early.
Trill, Rigelians, Betazoid should be available if some canon source confirms it.
And Alien gen should be available!
Post edited by claudiusdk on
"Please, Captain, not in front of the Klingons." Spock to Kirk, as Kirk is about to hug him.
Star Trek V: "The Final Frontier"
People are talking about style. I don't see how my playing a Trill is going to ruin the TOS style. I am going to be surrounded by sights and sounds, ships and uniforms, colors and gizmos of the TOS style. I am pretty sure I am not going to be breaking that at all by playing a Trill.
1. The limit from what I can see is pretty simple. STO is a generally a mish mash of every kind of Trek you want all at once. The TOS Starfleet faction is meant to narrow down that mish mash into one point. (Yet another side topic, I kind of wish the bulk of STO did the same) When you first start creating a TOS Starfleet character you're welcomed by the races you remember from TOS, that is Cryptic's goal (as I see it and which I'm willing to say I could be wrong)
That is pretty much what they've said. The problem is what any given player considers a TOS race. To some, they literally just see it as what was shown on screen during the 1960's. To others, well they've had decades of films and TV shows making connections to the TOS production. Those have explained that the TOS was just a smaller part of a broader Federation, and invoked the power of imagination (which can be a lot more powerful than the visual feed coming into the brain ) to place later species, ships, and so on (like the Daedalus class) in the TOS universe.
Now, AOY could strictly cater to the first group, and as I've said that won't break the expansion. But there's a number of people (who have been commenting here) who don't share the stricter viewpoint about what should make it into a modern TOS production (which AOY ultimately is, however much it's playing the nostalgia card.)
So, there's the question of just what subjective viewpoint AOY takes on as the TOS style. There isn't a single right answer (see. the fact this is a discussion about art styles), but there's other consequences of restricting RPG character options which do invoke a much more functional focus.
3. Roles require characters, role playing games require worlds for the characters to interact with. Also you can have a RTS, FPS, or an action game with role playing, so I don't think the term should be decided based off the number of races you have to choose from.
This is a pretty wide misinterpretation but it's going to take a tangent about just what defines a game's genre to correct it. I suggest you just try again, and if there's still some confusion just leave it alone. Key point: RPG's require character creation. It's a vital feature that defines the genre. Therefore, it shouldn't be taken lightly when an RPG reduces character creation for superficial reasons (ie. those dealing with a single viewpoint on art and style) simply because that's a big compromise not everyone is liable to appreciate. Some will, but it's a very subjective thing that could just as easily alienate as appeal (which we've seen in the various responses to this topic).
Truth be told I don't care much for TOS, I think the Connie is one of the most poorly made ships in the history of science fiction (the TIE line from Star Wars take first). But AoY is being built as a love letter to the Star Trek that started it all, to the first show, crew, and ship that without them we would not have the Caitians or Trills that we have now. And out of respect and understanding (the other part of Star Trek that people seem to pass over for IDIC) I'm want to see it the letter written, unedited and from the heart.
Also as I have said before, I agree there should be more races but I would rather see TOS races than just letting Cryptic do a simple cut and paste job.
I think this is where some of our discussions have become ever so slightly dysfunctional (and a note for reading this point, I'm trying to write this with a very relaxed and non-aggressive tone.) You're arguing on behalf of a group that you are not part of. You appreciate what cryptic is trying to do but that's very abstract compared to someone who is emotionally invested in the TOS production themselves.
If cryptic had made any other kind of statement (ex. including Caitians from the get go) then I strongly suspect you would have accepted that too, because then it would have been a love letter to TOS and what followed. Not having that emotional connection to TOS and only TOS yourself, what would have been the difference? Either way, it's what cryptic would have wanted as their "love letter," so it would have been easy to find an academic appreciation for that slightly different viewpoint too (provided it's what they started with.)
Therefore, this really isn't about the implications of one view versus another. It's just trying to state that you want Cryptic (taking it as a single entity) to do what Cryptic wants to do, to make an original artistic statement without compromise. That's quite noble, but in trying to sell others on your artistic idea the artist does need a touch of pragmatism too. It should never be so severe that their work stops being from the heart, but you must remember that art is a shared experience. It's not all about you.
So taking a step back from a pure "vision" to significantly improve a core aspect of an MMORPG faction is perfectly a fine thing to do. As we've said, preferably Cryptic accomplishes that same goal with "TOS" species but if that's out of the question then compromise is definitely the next thing to consider.
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What I don't understand is why they don't allow alternate races, then if you do that, you have to burn one costume slow for a 'human' look that they can either give you to play the first few episodes. Then daniels can add a line of text that he altered them into whatever they are to help facilitate the disguise. With the existing click here to look like 'blank' character, I'm surprised a long term version wasn't developed, or some sort of free latinum cloak for the player that never expires but is required in the AoY sections.
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I'd rather start by making a list of races SEEN in TOS that were part of the Federation. This has at least 3 options. Ithenites(the short guys from Babel), Tiburonians(Sevrin from the Way to Eden), Violaceans(also from Babel)
1. The limit from what I can see is pretty simple. STO is a generally a mish mash of every kind of Trek you want all at once. The TOS Starfleet faction is meant to narrow down that mish mash into one point. (Yet another side topic, I kind of wish the bulk of STO did the same) When you first start creating a TOS Starfleet character you're welcomed by the races you remember from TOS, that is Cryptic's goal (as I see it and which I'm willing to say I could be wrong)
That is pretty much what they've said. The problem is what any given player considers a TOS race. To some, they literally just see it as what was shown on screen during the 1960's. To others, well they've had decades of films and TV shows making connections to the TOS production. Those have explained that the TOS was just a smaller part of a broader Federation, and invoked the power of imagination (which can be a lot more powerful than the visual feed coming into the brain ) to place later species, ships, and so on (like the Daedalus class) in the TOS universe.
Now, AOY could strictly cater to the first group, and as I've said that won't break the expansion. But there's a number of people (who have been commenting here) who don't share the stricter viewpoint about what should make it into a modern TOS production (which AOY ultimately is, however much it's playing the nostalgia card.)
So, there's the question of just what subjective viewpoint AOY takes on as the TOS style. There isn't a single right answer (see. the fact this is a discussion about art styles), but there's other consequences of restricting RPG character options which do invoke a much more functional focus.
3. Roles require characters, role playing games require worlds for the characters to interact with. Also you can have a RTS, FPS, or an action game with role playing, so I don't think the term should be decided based off the number of races you have to choose from.
This is a pretty wide misinterpretation but it's going to take a tangent about just what defines a game's genre to correct it. I suggest you just try again, and if there's still some confusion just leave it alone. Key point: RPG's require character creation. It's a vital feature that defines the genre. Therefore, it shouldn't be taken lightly when an RPG reduces character creation for superficial reasons (ie. those dealing with a single viewpoint on art and style) simply because that's a big compromise not everyone is liable to appreciate. Some will, but it's a very subjective thing that could just as easily alienate as appeal (which we've seen in the various responses to this topic).
Truth be told I don't care much for TOS, I think the Connie is one of the most poorly made ships in the history of science fiction (the TIE line from Star Wars take first). But AoY is being built as a love letter to the Star Trek that started it all, to the first show, crew, and ship that without them we would not have the Caitians or Trills that we have now. And out of respect and understanding (the other part of Star Trek that people seem to pass over for IDIC) I'm want to see it the letter written, unedited and from the heart.
Also as I have said before, I agree there should be more races but I would rather see TOS races than just letting Cryptic do a simple cut and paste job.
I think this is where some of our discussions have become ever so slightly dysfunctional (and a note for reading this point, I'm trying to write this with a very relaxed and non-aggressive tone.) You're arguing on behalf of a group that you are not part of. You appreciate what cryptic is trying to do but that's very abstract compared to someone who is emotionally invested in the TOS production themselves.
If cryptic had made any other kind of statement (ex. including Caitians from the get go) then I strongly suspect you would have accepted that too, because then it would have been a love letter to TOS and what followed. Not having that emotional connection to TOS and only TOS yourself, what would have been the difference? Either way, it's what cryptic would have wanted as their "love letter," so it would have been easy to find an academic appreciation for that slightly different viewpoint too (provided it's what they started with.)
Therefore, this really isn't about the implications of one view versus another. It's just trying to state that you want Cryptic (taking it as a single entity) to do what Cryptic wants to do, to make an original artistic statement without compromise. That's quite noble, but in trying to sell others on your artistic idea the artist does need a touch of pragmatism too. It should never be so severe that their work stops being from the heart, but you must remember that art is a shared experience. It's not all about you.
So taking a step back from a pure "vision" to significantly improve a core aspect of an MMORPG faction is perfectly a fine thing to do. As we've said, preferably Cryptic accomplishes that same goal with "TOS" species but if that's out of the question then compromise is definitely the next thing to consider.
Not in the mood to break this down so replying to the key part of this.
If Cryptic did have Caitians I would find it very weird. All the work they put in to recreate that 60s TV look and just to lessen it like that would be weird. Why not more TMP stuff? TWoK Khan outfit is already ingame so turning AoY into TOS/The First Set of Movies/TAS would give them a place to release that outfit to more people. We could even throw in a playable probe ship. STO is a love letter to Trek in general, Delta Rising was a shout out to Voyager (side topic about DR...it's kind of connected to AoY too. The Bluegill plot really did not mesh well with the rest of DR to me. It felt like they was not put there well.), and I hope AoY sticks to its narrow focus on where Trek started.
I'd rather start by making a list of races SEEN in TOS that were part of the Federation. This has at least 3 options. Ithenites(the short guys from Babel), Tiburonians(Sevrin from the Way to Eden), Violaceans(also from Babel)
Another option is similar to Joined Trill.... Psionic Humans. We DID see several in TOS. Aside from sometimes having white eyes, they were otherwise normal...
Another option is similar to Joined Trill.... Psionic Humans. We DID see several in TOS. Aside from sometimes having white eyes, they were otherwise normal...
It's worth noting that being a member of the Federation doesn't necessarily mean that they have members in Starfleet. Vulcan's were still relatively rare in Starfleet at this time (some sources claim that Spock was the only Vulcan in Starfleet, but there's very little proof of that), since most chose to join the Vulcan Science Academy. The TOS Enterprise was made up mostly of humans - or perhaps other species that could pass as humans.
Actually there was a whole crew of Vulcans serving on the U.S.S Intrepid (430 crew - all Vulcan) in the TOS era (watch the TOS episode "Immunity Syndrome"). What was stated in the TOS era was that 'mixed crews' (IE Andorians/Vulcans/Humans serving together on one ship was unusual for that period. IMO it also kind of makes sense in that if a crew is all one race, the Life Support systems can be specifically tuned for said race on a ship.)
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You need to be clear on something when setting your expectations for this release: Agents of Yesterday is NOT for the deeply involved, knowledgeable Star Trek superfan. Setting depth is not the goal here.
It is a streamlined, glossy look at the absolutely iconic features of The Original Series TV show - NOT the Star Trek Universe - and is aimed at attracting casual fans who never heard of ANY of the races you just mentioned. It's designed to get them into the game and moving forward with the absolute minimum number of distractions - distractions like picking from more than four races.
Option paralysis is the great bane of our age and frankly I'm a little surprised they went with 4 races. Three options is pretty much the go to level of complexity for blind, binding choices to pitch in front of a new player. If they thought they could have cut it down to "Human or Vulcan, full stop" they probably would have. There was no ideal third choice so they ended up with 4 and can call it "Federation Founders"
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There's just 4 or 5 other options though that could be added that's already playable in the game that they don't have to make any changes to. They don't have to make Caitians look like they do in the animated series or the movies. Making them playable would make people happy enough. I personally really want to make a TOS Trill. I would really enjoy that.
I think it's more the justification. With a couple of simple criteria you can state exactly why Human, Vulcan, Andorian, and Tellarite are the only choices for the AoY faction. But to say why those are in place you have to explain that showing what TOS didn't film isn't something you want to do. Well and good, that's a creative decision and one that makes sense for a TOS tribute expansion. But you can't maintain that explanation as a consistent rule with Tellarites and Andorians serving with Vulcans and Humans as a balanced, four species crew. That was never a part of TOS, and yet the compromise is made to expand playable options (which benefits gameplay, customization, and backstory, all good things.)
Why stop there? Why not increase the playable options still further (using existing assets, which we know from later series and movies should be there) and address what's looking like a significant weakness of the TOS faction as compared to the standard FED (which, minus the episode arc and old ESD hub, has everything the TOS faction does but with many more character choices)?
Well it seems to boil down to "this is the way Cryptic wants it to be," hence arbitrary. And that's not really a functional problem with AoY, it'll work just fine. But it could work better (for the same purpose) with more options.
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That would probably be the most complete solution. People have generally been asking for more of the existing FED/TOS species but the problem is always going to be the FED will have more choices (inevitably something's going to have to be restricted, ex. Talaxian, Klingon.) But if the TOS faction has unique options then regardless of what else isn't available there's going to be some redeeming creative angles to explore for them (and them alone).
But the question is "would it be any easier to add purple people with the Babel hair options than Caitians, Saurians, or Trill?" We don't know, but we can at least throw it out there.
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Seriously. An invasion armada (and not one wave) from the future swoops in and takes on a couple of 23rd century ships + one from the future? I would prefer subtle and tangential use of the future threat, but I recognize that kinda breaks the game aspect, if you are looking to combine the factions.
I will say that I did love the earlier missions...the original Star Trek was my first and always favourite, so thank you to the devs for giving me a small slice.
I'm thinking more the back-end and traits. From what cryptic has said in the past new playable species are quite work intensive and it wasn't clear from those statements that they just were talking about new textures and head attachments.
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Maybe not in Starfleet ... but the ROMULANS ... they understood the value of female commanders!
Federation = backwards
Romulans = The Future!
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That was TAS, thats enough reason for me but others would argue otherwise.
As for Trills, making them part of the TOS Starfleet faction would be like taking a defiant, slapping on a Connie-like material, and saying it fits with the TOS Starfleet faction.
Is four races not enough? Maybe but I would rather have TOS Starfleet look and play like its own thing than it becoming the same new
To be fair unless they change their mind and make the TOS head/facial options for Tellarites and Andorians free, it's going to feel like the Mirror Universe episodes of Enterprise for almost everyone with Enterprise Andorian and Tellarites running around. And from what it looks like now it's pretty much just an alternate start to the Federation players that's pretty much just a new tutorial. Or that's the largest complaint next to lack of race options. They should at least give alien gen to the TOS Federation starting experience if nothing else.
Those styles are all compatible with one another. STO and TMP caitians look identical (apart one's set in a physical medium and the other virtual, we even have the correct facial hair options) and we're only missing one hair option to bring M'ress to STO. If you want to argue that "well, doing more things will be difficult!" you should probably consider that the entire operation of bringing TOS to STO through AOY requires some effort and as it looks right now some of that is going to be undermined by a stifling set of starting races which you can't justify based on the original 1960's production because we never saw those species as part of one crew in TOS (prime universe.)
Cryptic's call is a novel creative decision and though it's not going to break AOY it is going to make it less useful. Expanding playable species (in one way or another, we've discussed a number of choices here including other species from Journey to Babel) to bring the TOS faction closer to the par set by the KDF/ROM/FED would be advisable.
That would be a technical fix but of all the species that could be plausibly added Aliens are probably the most problematic. To make them fit you would need to lop off large portions of the tailor (else risk the first TOS/Dominion cross-over
It'd still be something, which is better than the nothing-plus-four we have now. But...if we're to get more options I'd personally prefer it to be from defined species.
Well cryptic has done a pretty good job over the years of convincingly filling in the blanks. If it really becomes a question though what you could do is create a set of traits simply based on them being in conference at Babel (focusing on support and team buffs.)
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As I said the post that you only quoted part of.
So yes, I agree that four races is not enough for some people but I also agree that a TOS Starfleet faction should be a TOS styled faction should have a strong focus on the TOS style, not TAS, TMP, or what we already have in STO.
Also another point I would like to bring up
The Republic only four races, one of which is only a lts reward.
Including alien which has practically limitless permutations. That really did get around the question of limited customization options which arose when the tribble builds of LoR just had Reman/Romulan. Considering the aesthetic view this time that solution probably isn't the most appropriate, but something nicely complimentary to the current four, like Caitians, would do the trick.
FYI
But it's worth elaborating on this point that entirely new species may not be practical to develop for AOY. Cryptic's made some comments in the past that adding new playable species is an especially difficult process, possibly due to back-end complications (but that's simply inference).
So making do with existing STO species setups may be the best way to address AOY's deficiencies in a core are of RPG gaming (character creation), should that indeed be an easier option.
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You say the lack of race choices is a deficiency in one of the cores of RPG gaming, your idea to fix it targets another key part of RPGs. The world
Lets say someone finally makes a new Superhero MMO and choose Adam West's Batman as the style of the game. Pretty cheesy and not really what superheroics look like to most people today. If someone wanted a blood magic power set that let them pop foes and create a shower of gore out of them, would the lack of this power set be bad for the game? I don't think so because the devs has chosen a style for the world.
Cryptic is masters when it come to creating character creators, the freedom they give you in creating your captain, adventurer, or superhero is unrivaled in the MMO market but even they limit themselves. To what they can do within the worlds they create and the world they live in.
Factions are more than what they have, they are the things they don't. The fact that cloaks are pretty rare on Starfleet ships says as much about what Starfleet than their uniforms.
Which as we've been over time again is:
1. Inconsistent with cryptic's logic (we've never seen this combination of species as part of a single TOS starfleet crew.)
2. Non-canon (the franchise didn't end with TOS, and STO is set from a 2410 perspective)
3. Coming at a direct cost to core game aspects (ie. RPG character creation, it's what the genre is named for.)
(and the alternative is hardly blood magic)
You can take the purely artistic stand (putting all that aside and tautologically justifying Cryptics choice by what it is) but to do so you have to also take the unreasonable stance that it's the be-all, end-all of the game (keyword: game). It isn't, it has to be balanced against other factors unless all you want to end up with is that individually subjective artistic statement (which in itself is meaningless. To have an impact art needs to work with, rather than against, its medium and audience.)
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1. You're pushing canon when it was a style choice. These are races known during TOS's run to the viewers.
2. See one
3. Role Playing Games and Character Creation does not seen to be the same words.
(But does clash with the style of the setting)
Another point, TOS Starfleet is not a full faction, much like the Romulans they have solid limits built in because of the nature of the faction and before you bring up Republic aliens again remember, they much like the Carddie lockbox was, a mistake. The storyline for them was really built for a Romulan/Reman point of view in a sense like the TOS faction more in an art style sense then story but still. And in my life I have learned repeating mistakes only create more and generally worst mistakes.
1. One isn't actually a question of canon, it's a question of style.
The balanced four species starfleet crews of AOY wasn't shown on screen in TOS. That means its Cryptic's own creative extrapolation. So, if it really is just an arbitrary style (see. previous discussion) why limit the options to four? Compromising on a few more would bring tangible gameplay benefits, establish a visual style that is just as valid as the previous (no single art form is innately superior to any other, that relates heavily to the point of art), and (in the case of TMP/VH/UC/TNG/DS9/ENT species) it would certainly appeal to those who view the movies and subsequent TV shows as having an impact on the world of TOS.
2. World building requires a [roughly] consistent backstory. You can't dismiss canon in favor of style without completely throwing your point about factions out the window.
3. Roles require characters. Characters do not require worlds (stories can be staged with them alone.) Therefore the single defining feature of the RPG genre is character creation. Without it and you have something else, an action game, RTS, or FPS depending on what the gameplay is. That may incidentally have also some kind of world-building without making it an RPG [see. the Starcraft or Halo universes] as again the style or vision of the setting isn't the key factor here.
And I'm not going to let you continue on to another point because it's very much getting well beyond the limits of what you've previously stated as your opinion (and productive discussion).
Let's have some more options, preferably original to TOS, and though you may be uncomfortable with the conceivable alternatives there's a reasonable amount of stated support from those who don't share your viewpoint.
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1. The limit from what I can see is pretty simple. STO is a generally a mish mash of every kind of Trek you want all at once. The TOS Starfleet faction is meant to narrow down that mish mash into one point. (Yet another side topic, I kind of wish the bulk of STO did the same) When you first start creating a TOS Starfleet character you're welcomed by the races you remember from TOS, that is Cryptic's goal (as I see it and which I'm willing to say I could be wrong)
2.You already covered that. "Roughly" also if needed point 1 again. Also canon has not been dismissed completely
3. Roles require characters, role playing games require worlds for the characters to interact with. Also you can have a RTS, FPS, or an action game with role playing, so I don't think the term should be decided based off the number of races you have to choose from.
Truth be told I don't care much for TOS, I think the Connie is one of the most poorly made ships in the history of science fiction (the TIE line from Star Wars take first). But AoY is being built as a love letter to the Star Trek that started it all, to the first show, crew, and ship that without them we would not have the Caitians or Trills that we have now. And out of respect and understanding (the other part of Star Trek that people seem to pass over for IDIC) I'm want to see it the letter written, unedited and from the heart.
Also as I have said before, I agree there should be more races but I would rather see TOS races than just letting Cryptic do a simple cut and paste job.
So whats the problem with Caitians?
They are a canon race. Shown in offical, non-extended universe media. And they are confirmed to be part of the federation.
Heck, the current Caitian model look almost exactly like the TWOK/TOS movies era Caitians(and even the animated series Caitians to an extend, minus the legs and diffrent hair style), we clearly saw two caitains admirals in "Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home".
Also those two admiral caitians seen would have been captains or something the TOS series era to be admirals at this point.
But Caitians are fine as they look. And they look almost like they did in the movie era.
Even Andorians and Vulcans have barely changed since the TOS era(different antenna placement, and less eyeshadow). So why should Caitians?
So thier looks isn't a problem.
Thier canonicity isn't a problem.
So whats the problem?
Yeah cause Kirk had a mostly human crew. And we didn't see much of other ships and thier crews either.
Even Picard had a mostly human looking crew!
One of the books tell how Riker was the first Captain to truely have a mixed crew that didn't have a majoraty of same race as the captain.
But okay then, lets turn this around and ask how many Andorians or Tellerites did we see in Starfleet uniform in the TOS series? How many Vulcans beside Spock?(who btw joined cause of his half human side).
Not asking if they were part of the federation, we know they are. Asking if they were even shown to be part of starfleet and wearing a starfleet uniform. Cause right now, I don't remember any, they were always shown wearing thier own uniforms.
Neither is this entire expansion.
The peremesis is based around the Temporal War, Daniels, and the Na'kul.. all things from ENT
The Deadalus is from the animated series, and miniature model on a table in one of the other series.
A whole bunch of other ships never shown in the show either.
And someone mentioned Female Captains was never shown.
From the begining, this game itself isn't based only on Hard-Canon(only the series and movies), its also based on soft-canon(expanded universe, stuff from some comics and books). The game itself is soft-canon!
There is a lot of things that should be removed from this game if we start on only wanting hard-canon items.
Most ships should be removed. Aswell should most uniforms, Vulcans and Romulans having access to so many diffrent hairstyles, most playable races, short traveltime between worlds... to name a few things that would be removed.
So please, add other races than the founding 4.
Caitians and Saurians I know were around that early.
Trill, Rigelians, Betazoid should be available if some canon source confirms it.
And Alien gen should be available!
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That is pretty much what they've said. The problem is what any given player considers a TOS race. To some, they literally just see it as what was shown on screen during the 1960's. To others, well they've had decades of films and TV shows making connections to the TOS production. Those have explained that the TOS was just a smaller part of a broader Federation, and invoked the power of imagination (which can be a lot more powerful than the visual feed coming into the brain
Now, AOY could strictly cater to the first group, and as I've said that won't break the expansion. But there's a number of people (who have been commenting here) who don't share the stricter viewpoint about what should make it into a modern TOS production (which AOY ultimately is, however much it's playing the nostalgia card.)
So, there's the question of just what subjective viewpoint AOY takes on as the TOS style. There isn't a single right answer (see. the fact this is a discussion about art styles), but there's other consequences of restricting RPG character options which do invoke a much more functional focus.
This is a pretty wide misinterpretation but it's going to take a tangent about just what defines a game's genre to correct it. I suggest you just try again, and if there's still some confusion just leave it alone. Key point: RPG's require character creation. It's a vital feature that defines the genre. Therefore, it shouldn't be taken lightly when an RPG reduces character creation for superficial reasons (ie. those dealing with a single viewpoint on art and style) simply because that's a big compromise not everyone is liable to appreciate. Some will, but it's a very subjective thing that could just as easily alienate as appeal (which we've seen in the various responses to this topic).
I think this is where some of our discussions have become ever so slightly dysfunctional (and a note for reading this point, I'm trying to write this with a very relaxed and non-aggressive tone.) You're arguing on behalf of a group that you are not part of. You appreciate what cryptic is trying to do but that's very abstract compared to someone who is emotionally invested in the TOS production themselves.
If cryptic had made any other kind of statement (ex. including Caitians from the get go) then I strongly suspect you would have accepted that too, because then it would have been a love letter to TOS and what followed. Not having that emotional connection to TOS and only TOS yourself, what would have been the difference? Either way, it's what cryptic would have wanted as their "love letter," so it would have been easy to find an academic appreciation for that slightly different viewpoint too (provided it's what they started with.)
Therefore, this really isn't about the implications of one view versus another. It's just trying to state that you want Cryptic (taking it as a single entity) to do what Cryptic wants to do, to make an original artistic statement without compromise. That's quite noble, but in trying to sell others on your artistic idea the artist does need a touch of pragmatism too. It should never be so severe that their work stops being from the heart, but you must remember that art is a shared experience. It's not all about you.
So taking a step back from a pure "vision" to significantly improve a core aspect of an MMORPG faction is perfectly a fine thing to do. As we've said, preferably Cryptic accomplishes that same goal with "TOS" species but if that's out of the question then compromise is definitely the next thing to consider.
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My character Tsin'xing
Not in the mood to break this down so replying to the key part of this.
If Cryptic did have Caitians I would find it very weird. All the work they put in to recreate that 60s TV look and just to lessen it like that would be weird. Why not more TMP stuff? TWoK Khan outfit is already ingame so turning AoY into TOS/The First Set of Movies/TAS would give them a place to release that outfit to more people. We could even throw in a playable probe ship. STO is a love letter to Trek in general, Delta Rising was a shout out to Voyager (side topic about DR...it's kind of connected to AoY too. The Bluegill plot really did not mesh well with the rest of DR to me. It felt like they was not put there well.), and I hope AoY sticks to its narrow focus on where Trek started.
Agreed
My character Tsin'xing
That would sorta be funny to see.
Actually there was a whole crew of Vulcans serving on the U.S.S Intrepid (430 crew - all Vulcan) in the TOS era (watch the TOS episode "Immunity Syndrome"). What was stated in the TOS era was that 'mixed crews' (IE Andorians/Vulcans/Humans serving together on one ship was unusual for that period. IMO it also kind of makes sense in that if a crew is all one race, the Life Support systems can be specifically tuned for said race on a ship.)
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Some days it's actually kind of funny to be completely ignored.
...and still be right.