From Memory Alpha "The show featured a handful of new technologies like the recreation room (later the idea was reused in TNG, where it was known as a holodeck) and the aqua-shuttle. It also features many non-humanoid alien species (and even some alien officers aboard the Enterprise) who could not have been featured within the original series' budget.
From Memory Alpha "The show featured a handful of new technologies like the recreation room (later the idea was reused in TNG, where it was known as a holodeck) and the aqua-shuttle. It also features many non-humanoid alien species (and even some alien officers aboard the Enterprise) who could not have been featured within the original series' budget.
The only reson Caitian's where not there is they didn't have the funding back then, if they did, the Caitians would of been there,
The Devs have repeatedly said, in multiple interviews, that anything that was not featured in the three seasons of the original live action series will not be part the TOS faction. They've also specifically ruled out both TAS and TMP repeatedly as well. Regardless of the reason for their exclusion back in the day, Caitians were not in TOS, so for the purposes of AoY the devs decided they were not TOS and did not belong. Zero also said that it would be difficult for them to feature the animated version of Caitians and do them justice, as they fit better with Champions' visual style than STO's.
Caitians were NOT in TOS, so they will NOT be playable for the TOS faction, end of story.
then Devs are brakeing there own word, IF they are copying the TOS show, then there should be NO Female captains, as they where never seen on screen, they where in the Animated show, but not the original, so you shouldent be able to make a female character in agnets of yestorday,
From Memory Alpha "The show featured a handful of new technologies like the recreation room (later the idea was reused in TNG, where it was known as a holodeck) and the aqua-shuttle. It also features many non-humanoid alien species (and even some alien officers aboard the Enterprise) who could not have been featured within the original series' budget.
The only reson Caitian's where not there is they didn't have the funding back then, if they did, the Caitians would of been there,
The Devs have repeatedly said, in multiple interviews, that anything that was not featured in the three seasons of the original live action series will not be part the TOS faction. They've also specifically ruled out both TAS and TMP repeatedly as well. Regardless of the reason for their exclusion back in the day, Caitians were not in TOS, so for the purposes of AoY the devs decided they were not TOS and did not belong. Zero also said that it would be difficult for them to feature the animated version of Caitians and do them justice, as they fit better with Champions' visual style than STO's.
Caitians were NOT in TOS, so they will NOT be playable for the TOS faction, end of story.
They don't have to make them look like their animated series version. They just don't need to cut content that already exists in game and alienating their playerbase that do not want to play the Founding 4. They don't even have to add them to missions. Hell you can't even make TOS Andorians and Tellarites unless you buy their costumes so players will already be "breaking the tos setting" unless they purchase the costumes. If people do not want to play something not in the original show itself fine. They at least have the option. Don't take away the option of playing races later added into the era that are already playable in the game by the same faction from those that would rather not play the Founding 4. It's not going to hurt the people who made their choice to be a Vulcan or Tellarite and it wouldn't hurt the people who made the choice to play a Caitian or a Trill. They are not going to be in each others story missions stealing their kills and quest objectives. The whole point of this forum is for feedback and the feedback is that people do not want to be limited from already existing options that still make sense from a lore standpoint no matter if it was created in the 70s or in the 90s. It's still canon.
Ultimately, until we hear the Dev's say otherwise, this is really a pointless conversation. Right now, we have to assume that what we see is what we're getting, and 4 or 5 threads on the subject isn't going to change the current reality beyond the: "we've made them aware of our feelings on the subject, hopefully they'll make some changes based on that."
We are the ones who play there game, we are whats getting them paid, there choices are add the species that should of been there in the first place and make ALOT of players happy, or not add them and alienate a large amount of there players, whats so hard about adding the species that should of been there in the first place,
That's TAS, not TOS. A Caitian never appeared on the original series.
The devs appear to be paying homage to the original series with this new expansion, given that it is the 50th anniversary of that series. It makes sense (at least to me, a fan of that series) that they are confiining themselves to the races found in that series, and especially the Founding Four.
fine, if they want to strictly do the original TV show, then the only playable ship should be the Constitution class, no acceptions as no other starfleet vessel class was ever seen on the TV show, next there should be no female in any sort of command role what so ever as it was not seen in the TV show, this includes players, so it should be inpossable to make a female character as that would be placeing a woman in a command role,
Number One from the Cage and the Menagerie was female....
T'Pau WAS all of Vulcan....
The original series was about breaking through, and creating an equal playing field.
There were other types of starships mentioned, even if not shown. The vessel mentioned in Bread and Circuses was not called a starship, but must have had interstellar capability
Don't think she qualifies as Caitian, but Gary Seven had an interesting cat.
Number One from the Cage and the Menagerie was female....
T'Pau WAS all of Vulcan....
The original series was about breaking through, and creating an equal playing field.
There were other types of starships mentioned, even if not shown. The vessel mentioned in Bread and Circusses was not called a starship, but must have had interstellar capability
then brake new ground and have all the Species that are supposed to be there!
Good Science Fiction isn't about the technology. The lasers, phasers, computers, or aliens are truly irrelevant.
Good Science Fiction uses these tools to hold a mirror up to society as it exists in the present. It shows the warts and the hopeful things.
Star Trek (I will not call it TOS, as that was not it's name) was good Science Fiction. It dealt with the problems of racial inequality, racial hatred, intergenerational misunderstanding, and gender bias, to name a few. It shook people up by featuring TVs first interracial kiss.
fine, if they want to strictly do the original TV show, then the only playable ship should be the Constitution class, no acceptions as no other starfleet vessel class was ever seen on the TV show, next there should be no female in any sort of command role what so ever as it was not seen in the TV show, this includes players, so it should be inpossable to make a female character as that would be placeing a woman in a command role,
the only reason there were no female captains was because it was the 1960's. women were seen as weaker, lesser. every single ship they made is built off modified Connie parts, and they obviously cant have only one ship. Even IF that ship was the Connie, people would rage even more than you are already doing. but all the sets, aliens, clothes, interiors, planets, everything are all TOS. Adhering to on screen canon does not mean they need to be Chauvinistic just because the censors, and people in general, were in 1966. besides, the last thing STO needs is a bunch of women's rights activists screaming that they are being stifled. you know that would happen. (besides, a woman in a command position DID happen on screen. the original pilot/the episode the pilot was dumped into.)
This is not the first time I've seen someone make the "give me every little thing I want or take everything away completely from everyone" argument. this is extremely weird and i dont get it. stop being petty. besides, the expansion isn't even half out yet, who knows what else they will do.
fine, if they want to strictly do the original TV show, then the only playable ship should be the Constitution class, no acceptions as no other starfleet vessel class was ever seen on the TV show, next there should be no female in any sort of command role what so ever as it was not seen in the TV show, this includes players, so it should be inpossable to make a female character as that would be placeing a woman in a command role,
the only reason there were no female captains was because it was the 1960's. women were seen as weaker, lesser. every single ship they made is built off modified Connie parts, and they obviously cant have only one ship. Even IF that ship was the Connie, people would rage even more than you are already doing. but all the sets, aliens, clothes, interiors, planets, everything are all TOS. Adhering to on screen canon does not mean they need to be Chauvinistic just because the censors, and people in general, were in 1966. besides, the last thing STO needs is a bunch of women's rights activists screaming that they are being stifled. you know that would happen. (besides, a woman in a command position DID happen on screen. the original pilot/the episode the pilot was dumped into.)
This is not the first time I've seen someone make the "give me every little thing I want or take everything away completely from everyone" argument. this is extremely weird and i dont get it. stop being petty. besides, the expansion isn't even half out yet, who knows what else they will do.
It does kind of bring a logical point though. The only reason there aren't more aliens or Klingons with ridges has more to do with constraints set by 1960s TV and budgets. The only reason you don't see female Captains is because 1960s TV. Both are absurd arguments knowing what we know today.
Shouldn't the Trill, Rigelians, Saurians, Betazoid, Caitian, and Alien gen be available also? Deanna Troi's father was and officer in a Wrath of Khan uniform so Betazoids being a part of the Federation may be the furthest stretch since this picture is from the 2330s.
Actually, the uniform that Captain Pickard, Jack Crusher, and Deanna Troy's father was from the time period between the Wrath of Khan/beginning of ST: Generations and TNG, which included Enterprise-C.
"Alien gen because if everyone including Romulans can have it why not TOS when there's many members of the Federation we have yet to even see because of how large the organization is. Now if this was say in the Enterprise era right after the founding then I would understand the creation of only the Founding Four. This isn't though. If we are only allowed to make Federation races, please do not limit our options to just the Founders. It's not like you have to create any new facial options for them. Considering you only touched Andorians and Tellarites and those options people will have to purchase to use anyway from their respective TOS era costumes from the store.
Had the production crew had a better budget, and more time (three years out of a five year mission's not bad, but...), there would have been more aliens than just 'human-like aliens' being introduced (it was cheaper to make helmets that covered the ears than make the plastic prostetics for ears for Romulans, so they were eventually cut out, with the exception of 'The Enterprise Incident' to be replaced by the cheaper, makeup-wise, Klingons).
It took a movie budget to give us more aliens, esp. onboard the Enterprise. When you go by the scene where Admiral Kirk addresses the crew, there were a number of aliens that aren't covered by what's available to STO, except through the Alien Gen.
Had the production crew had a better budget, and more time (three years out of a five year mission's not bad, but...), there would have been more aliens than just 'human-like aliens' being introduced (it was cheaper to make helmets that covered the ears than make the plastic prostetics for ears for Romulans, so they were eventually cut out, with the exception of 'The Enterprise Incident' to be replaced by the cheaper, makeup-wise, Klingons).
So then why are we getting Tellarites and Andorians? It's breaking with the production to have anything other than what was literally shown for Starfleet crews, humans and the odd Vulcan. The others may have been shown in other contexts in TOS but including them as playable is still invoking the power of the imagination (in spite of the non-existent make-up budget for STO characters) which could very easily be applied to including other canon species too.
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
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IMO, ARBITRARY is the key word when thinking as the Dev's did, in deciding what was in and what was out.
There are several choices I would have vehemently disagreed with, had I been born lucky enough to have worked for Cryptic/PWE in this lifetime.
But, c'est la vie...
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
My sig says it all, I am biased in this and will say up front that I want Caitians in the AoY expansion and can only hope the devs do take notice and include them before release.
Dawnspooner does raise the correct argument, the devs have said that they want to have the look and feel of TOS, so that does mean that there should be no female captains (another poster - can't remember who sorry! - did point out about Number One and T'Pol but they were not captains), in fact the player should only be able to play a human captain as that is all that is ever seen. There should only be the Constitution starship because that is the only Starfleet vessel shown apart from shuttlecraft, but we already know from many a closed thread that T5 or T6 Connies will never happen as well as the fact the AoY pack has lots of ships that were never seen or even thought of! So there are already lots of holes in the devs thinking, and that thinking as Daveyny said is very, very arbitrary, and at this point in time I think is very, very wrong.
In fact I am thinking this expansion is less to do with the existing players and any sort of homage to, or celebration of, TOS as a very slimed down simplified introduction for the console release!
IMO, ARBITRARY is the key word when thinking as the Dev's did, in deciding what was in and what was out.
There are several choices I would have vehemently disagreed with, had I been born lucky enough to have worked for Cryptic/PWE in this lifetime.
But, c'est la vie...
I don't think I'd call choosing the Founding Four races of the Federation to be arbitrary. It'd be nice to see a larger breadth of species, as by the time of AoY, the Federation had long grown past the Founding Four. However, if they are going to keep it to a small number of races, the original signing four isn't a bad selection. Very much not arbitrary.
I hope they are at least seeing the thread. This is great general discussion and feedback and it would be a shame if they are not even reading it themselves. I know hundreds of others have looked at the thread so far and it keeps counting up.
My sig says it all, I am biased in this and will say up front that I want Caitians in the AoY expansion and can only hope the devs do take notice and include them before release.
Dawnspooner does raise the correct argument, the devs have said that they want to have the look and feel of TOS, so that does mean that there should be no female captains (another poster - can't remember who sorry! - did point out about Number One and T'Pol but they were not captains), in fact the player should only be able to play a human captain as that is all that is ever seen. There should only be the Constitution starship because that is the only Starfleet vessel shown apart from shuttlecraft, but we already know from many a closed thread that T5 or T6 Connies will never happen as well as the fact the AoY pack has lots of ships that were never seen or even thought of! So there are already lots of holes in the devs thinking, and that thinking as Daveyny said is very, very arbitrary, and at this point in time I think is very, very wrong.
In fact I am thinking this expansion is less to do with the existing players and any sort of homage to, or celebration of, TOS as a very slimed down simplified introduction for the console release!
Don't count out one of those T-6 Thingy's that I and a few thousand other folks want, just yet.
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
I hope they are at least seeing the thread. This is great general discussion and feedback and it would be a shame if they are not even reading it themselves. I know hundreds of others have looked at the thread so far and it keeps counting up.
ThreadS. There's been a lot of talk about this decision. On one hand, I see the point that the Dev's have about not being able to justify doing Caitians like they looked in the animated series, but on the other...the fact that they've included a lot of things that aren't in TOS - we never saw Andorians or Tellarites on Starfleet crews for example, nor were the new ships they've added ever on the show - that it does seem that there's a flaw in their logic.
Nevertheless, I think that they can't bend on this due to the fact that they'd just face more "why aren't such and such species available to play in TOS?!" arguments, and it's getting late in the game to start dropping new things into the development pipeline anyway.
I'm fine just being able to play in the TOS era honestly. Though I'd love to have me a Caitian with hair finally, even if their legs don't bend the right way.
I do sort of wish a moderator would combine all these threads though. There are like 5 of them at this point, all basically using the same evidence and arguments, and I expect we'll see many more before and after the launch of AoY.
Not saying that the discussion isn't worth having, just that my old brain can't really keep track of where he posted what anymore in threads that aren't even about related topics, so I'm getting a bit dizzy with this particular one.
Comments
That is not The Original Series, that is The Animated Series, a distinction the devs have repeatedly said they are adhering to.
With the release of The Animated Series DVD, the studio appears to have changed its stance, and is leaning towards the animated series being part of established Star Trek canon." http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Trek:_The_Animated_Series
The only reson Caitian's where not there is they didn't have the funding back then, if they did, the Caitians would of been there,
The Devs have repeatedly said, in multiple interviews, that anything that was not featured in the three seasons of the original live action series will not be part the TOS faction. They've also specifically ruled out both TAS and TMP repeatedly as well. Regardless of the reason for their exclusion back in the day, Caitians were not in TOS, so for the purposes of AoY the devs decided they were not TOS and did not belong. Zero also said that it would be difficult for them to feature the animated version of Caitians and do them justice, as they fit better with Champions' visual style than STO's.
Caitians were NOT in TOS, so they will NOT be playable for the TOS faction, end of story.
They don't have to make them look like their animated series version. They just don't need to cut content that already exists in game and alienating their playerbase that do not want to play the Founding 4. They don't even have to add them to missions. Hell you can't even make TOS Andorians and Tellarites unless you buy their costumes so players will already be "breaking the tos setting" unless they purchase the costumes. If people do not want to play something not in the original show itself fine. They at least have the option. Don't take away the option of playing races later added into the era that are already playable in the game by the same faction from those that would rather not play the Founding 4. It's not going to hurt the people who made their choice to be a Vulcan or Tellarite and it wouldn't hurt the people who made the choice to play a Caitian or a Trill. They are not going to be in each others story missions stealing their kills and quest objectives. The whole point of this forum is for feedback and the feedback is that people do not want to be limited from already existing options that still make sense from a lore standpoint no matter if it was created in the 70s or in the 90s. It's still canon.
If they don't, then it is what it is. Ain't it?
The devs appear to be paying homage to the original series with this new expansion, given that it is the 50th anniversary of that series. It makes sense (at least to me, a fan of that series) that they are confiining themselves to the races found in that series, and especially the Founding Four.
Do we reach?
Number One from the Cage and the Menagerie was female....
T'Pau WAS all of Vulcan....
The original series was about breaking through, and creating an equal playing field.
There were other types of starships mentioned, even if not shown. The vessel mentioned in Bread and Circuses was not called a starship, but must have had interstellar capability
Don't think she qualifies as Caitian, but Gary Seven had an interesting cat.
then brake new ground and have all the Species that are supposed to be there!
Good Science Fiction uses these tools to hold a mirror up to society as it exists in the present. It shows the warts and the hopeful things.
Star Trek (I will not call it TOS, as that was not it's name) was good Science Fiction. It dealt with the problems of racial inequality, racial hatred, intergenerational misunderstanding, and gender bias, to name a few. It shook people up by featuring TVs first interracial kiss.
It deserves to be held in very high regard.
I'll not discuss the cartoon stuff again.
the only reason there were no female captains was because it was the 1960's. women were seen as weaker, lesser. every single ship they made is built off modified Connie parts, and they obviously cant have only one ship. Even IF that ship was the Connie, people would rage even more than you are already doing. but all the sets, aliens, clothes, interiors, planets, everything are all TOS. Adhering to on screen canon does not mean they need to be Chauvinistic just because the censors, and people in general, were in 1966. besides, the last thing STO needs is a bunch of women's rights activists screaming that they are being stifled. you know that would happen. (besides, a woman in a command position DID happen on screen. the original pilot/the episode the pilot was dumped into.)
This is not the first time I've seen someone make the "give me every little thing I want or take everything away completely from everyone" argument. this is extremely weird and i dont get it. stop being petty. besides, the expansion isn't even half out yet, who knows what else they will do.
It does kind of bring a logical point though. The only reason there aren't more aliens or Klingons with ridges has more to do with constraints set by 1960s TV and budgets. The only reason you don't see female Captains is because 1960s TV. Both are absurd arguments knowing what we know today.
My character Tsin'xing
Actually, the uniform that Captain Pickard, Jack Crusher, and Deanna Troy's father was from the time period between the Wrath of Khan/beginning of ST: Generations and TNG, which included Enterprise-C.
The collar for the shirt was eliminated. Not a major change, but you can spot the difference.
Had the production crew had a better budget, and more time (three years out of a five year mission's not bad, but...), there would have been more aliens than just 'human-like aliens' being introduced (it was cheaper to make helmets that covered the ears than make the plastic prostetics for ears for Romulans, so they were eventually cut out, with the exception of 'The Enterprise Incident' to be replaced by the cheaper, makeup-wise, Klingons).
It took a movie budget to give us more aliens, esp. onboard the Enterprise. When you go by the scene where Admiral Kirk addresses the crew, there were a number of aliens that aren't covered by what's available to STO, except through the Alien Gen.
So then why are we getting Tellarites and Andorians? It's breaking with the production to have anything other than what was literally shown for Starfleet crews, humans and the odd Vulcan. The others may have been shown in other contexts in TOS but including them as playable is still invoking the power of the imagination (in spite of the non-existent make-up budget for STO characters) which could very easily be applied to including other canon species too.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Should we consider the Kzinti to be canon as well? :P
There are several choices I would have vehemently disagreed with, had I been born lucky enough to have worked for Cryptic/PWE in this lifetime.
But, c'est la vie...
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
Dawnspooner does raise the correct argument, the devs have said that they want to have the look and feel of TOS, so that does mean that there should be no female captains (another poster - can't remember who sorry! - did point out about Number One and T'Pol but they were not captains), in fact the player should only be able to play a human captain as that is all that is ever seen. There should only be the Constitution starship because that is the only Starfleet vessel shown apart from shuttlecraft, but we already know from many a closed thread that T5 or T6 Connies will never happen as well as the fact the AoY pack has lots of ships that were never seen or even thought of! So there are already lots of holes in the devs thinking, and that thinking as Daveyny said is very, very arbitrary, and at this point in time I think is very, very wrong.
In fact I am thinking this expansion is less to do with the existing players and any sort of homage to, or celebration of, TOS as a very slimed down simplified introduction for the console release!
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I don't think I'd call choosing the Founding Four races of the Federation to be arbitrary. It'd be nice to see a larger breadth of species, as by the time of AoY, the Federation had long grown past the Founding Four. However, if they are going to keep it to a small number of races, the original signing four isn't a bad selection. Very much not arbitrary.
He said Caitians on TOS not Caitians on TAS. Thanks.
Don't count out one of those T-6 Thingy's that I and a few thousand other folks want, just yet.
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
ThreadS. There's been a lot of talk about this decision. On one hand, I see the point that the Dev's have about not being able to justify doing Caitians like they looked in the animated series, but on the other...the fact that they've included a lot of things that aren't in TOS - we never saw Andorians or Tellarites on Starfleet crews for example, nor were the new ships they've added ever on the show - that it does seem that there's a flaw in their logic.
Nevertheless, I think that they can't bend on this due to the fact that they'd just face more "why aren't such and such species available to play in TOS?!" arguments, and it's getting late in the game to start dropping new things into the development pipeline anyway.
I'm fine just being able to play in the TOS era honestly. Though I'd love to have me a Caitian with hair finally, even if their legs don't bend the right way.
Not saying that the discussion isn't worth having, just that my old brain can't really keep track of where he posted what anymore in threads that aren't even about related topics, so I'm getting a bit dizzy with this particular one.