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Too high DPS for fun.

I just had the opportunity to do a Hive Onslaught Space Elite run with 4 kind people in their 50k-75k dps builds. I myself scored a mere 20k dps (could have been a bit more if my Feedback Pulse had been of more use, but there was an epic tank with us, so...).

The borg were defenseless target practice. In Hive Onslaught Elite. The mission lasted 5 minutes and 45 seconds.

Should there be an Elite mission where the NPC's are defenseless target practice? Should this even be thinkable? I think it should not. If there is such a mission, should it be Hive Onslaught Elite? Most certainly not!

I want Hive Onslaught Elite to be a (at least!) 20-minute struggle with at least a bit uncertainty about the outcome. Where I have to be creative with what I got to survive and do sufficient damage. Where get the feeling that this is really tough, even though I did what is possible (within my budget) to make my ship strong and tough.

Devs. Please make that possible.
Remember, STO is nothing but a cosmetics game, where only the rule of cool matters. The game mechanics are intentionally out of balance, don't try to "optimize" anything, as it would just frustrate you.
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Comments

  • kyrrokkyrrok Member Posts: 1,352 Arc User
    I thought the insta-vape borg alerts were bad. When HSE becomes that much of a guarantee instead of a challenge, It takes the E right out of it. Unfortunately too many people want the guaranteed victory, and when they don't get it, the devs, and too often everyone else gets a royal dose of hell for it.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 10,441 Arc User
    I understand where you are coming from, but this is moot. For a team of 20k builds like yourself the challenge would have been bigger, but people playing the game mechanics are known to reach damage outputs the devs probably didn't even intend players to have but it's the way it is.

    Look at all the traits and specializations we have now. You have built in feedback pulses and damage immunity for basically no reason at all, there are just there in the spec trees and everybody 60+ can get those. Just like that. There are so many "clicks" that add damage to drain effects, to defensive abilities (brace for impact anyone?), the threatening stance just gives everybody damage for the lulz, there's so much stuff in this game that just grants you damage or immunity on top of what you have anyway for simply no reason. The effect is, as you described it, players being able to breeze through this game.

    The only solution to this problem however is on your end. Don't play in 75k groups. Play pugs or look for groups specifically made up to not be a 75k group. The alternative you're asking for is either a general nerf (won't happen as powercreep is what keeps players playing and paying) or yet another HP increase across the game to pad out the same missions. None of it is a attractive solution in my opinion. The game is broken - just play the cards you got to your biggest enjoyment.​​
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • e30erneste30ernest Member Posts: 1,794 Arc User
    As a part of that team, DPS wasn't the only thing at play:

    - You were playing with the "Aggronauts" so you were playing with a team that does HSE as much as some people do ISA: they know the map inside out.
    - We were a coordinated team with coordinated buffs (you asked why we were calling TIPs)
    - We were coordinating fire, shooting at the same targets to bring them down quickly. We were using Sensor Analysis or Command exploits to mark targets.
    - We were flying with dedicated tanks so that the dedicated DPS ships can lay down fire.
    - We came in with a plan and stuck to it.

    Basically, you ran with a team with builds made for that map with memvers who run often enough together to work as a coordinated team. Of course it would be easy.

    Also as I stated, HSE was nerfed when they fixed the tanky Tac Cubes. It was a lot more fun then.
  • lingeringsoul888lingeringsoul888 Member Posts: 508 Arc User
    I tried to PUG elite back when I was doing 20k........did not end pretty. Not one cube was killed because we couldn't survive long enough. That was a year ago, now, no one even plays it.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,145 Arc User
    The only way to make sure you get a group of people that play the way you want is to go with a pre-made group. Go with either your fleet members or friends.

    Don't join a PUG and then complain that people kill stuff too fast, it's silly. They kill things fast because they have put considerable time and resources into their builds. Maybe it's not fun for you, but it's fun for them.

    Your fun isn't more important then anyone elses. If you don't like the way Public Queues go, then play with like minded people that can assure you of an experience you enjoy more. Instead, you come to the forum and start threads and polls wanting the game to be changed to meet your personal expectation.

    Personally, I like tweaking things to see how much faster I can kill, it's fun for me. It's not fun for you.. that's cool, I get it, and it's fine. You should play with others that are happy doing 10-20k and leave the rest of us alone. Your way is not the 'right' way, and it's sure not the 'only' way.
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    Discovery is good, it's you that sucks.
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,817 Arc User
    angrytarg wrote: »
    The only solution to this problem however is on your end. Don't play in 75k groups. Play pugs or look for groups specifically made up to not be a 75k group. The alternative you're asking for is either a general nerf (won't happen as powercreep is what keeps players playing and paying) or yet another HP increase across the game to pad out the same missions. None of it is a attractive solution in my opinion. The game is broken - just play the cards you got to your biggest enjoyment.​​

    this is the main problem i have with this game and its mechanics, everything in the quote above is what is wrong with this.

    too many people have such a ridiculously high dps count, whats the point? and then they complain things are too easy and others have to limit their fun to get something out of it. cryptic should cut out the ultra rare and epic quality stuff out of the game and start scaling back on the usefulness or the over exploitative nature of some of the consoles introduced. the only real way to solve the issue is one the players would never want, change is a pain.

    the previous two threads about dps i have already commented on, one of which was a poll which missed the point. i mentioned the same thing i did here.
    T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
    Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
  • e30erneste30ernest Member Posts: 1,794 Arc User
    It wasn't a PUG, it was a premade.

    The OP was stating on his other thread that none of the high DPSers ran elites and that he tried to run HSE in a queue and asked in several channels but couldn't get a team together. I told him that we do run elites a lot and I offered him a slot in one of our runs.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 10,441 Arc User
    this is the main problem i have with this game and its mechanics, everything in the quote above is what is wrong with this.

    too many people have such a ridiculously high dps count, whats the point? and then they complain things are too easy and others have to limit their fun to get something out of it. cryptic should cut out the ultra rare and epic quality stuff out of the game and start scaling back on the usefulness or the over exploitative nature of some of the consoles introduced. the only real way to solve the issue is one the players would never want, change is a pain.

    the previous two threads about dps i have already commented on, one of which was a poll which missed the point. i mentioned the same thing i did here.

    I don't see any way to "fix" the game that is not the equivalent of "format c:" - you cannot change the game in it's current state. As I said before, they just introduced a new spec that grants you autoheal, damage immunity and quite hefty bonus damage just beause. It casually glosses over the three distinct roles and gives it to everyone just so nobody has to keep an eye on different things. Cryptic borked it on a fundamental level.

    In my opinion what they could do is indeed scale down things. Reduce damage, reduce the passive boni you get "just because", reduce the all-rounder state of ships, reinforce the trinity - I know people cry about the trinity, but it works. And if you want a bigger experience on one character play a hybrid class but rest assured you cannot excel the archetype classes in their field this way. With the trinity in place the game would still work and would require combined effort.

    But, and that's a fact, Cryptic cannot and will not remove stuff from the game like that, especially not stuff they just introduced. The way STO plays out is set and will not change, it's unrealistic to ask for anything but what we have now. The only way there's content that will be a "challenge" with elite gear, primary specs, secodnary specs, traits (they gave additional trait slots recently to get even more of those mind you) and skills is... yeah, what is it? The game has no AI, the enemies are mobs from the beginning days of MMOs. They will get more abilities that they spam on a timer and more HP and more shields to compensate, but if Cryptic was able to somehow make dynamic enemies I'm pretty sure they already had tried that in the six years the game is running now. The other solution is playerside, limit yourself until you reached the point the game is fun to you. Leave weapon slots empty, don't slot all tac consoles, don't upgrade stuff to epic XIV, don't slot traits - you don't have to do that.

    sophlogimo wrote: »
    (...)
    If Hive Onslaught Elite was actually Hive Onslaught Elite, doing it with four 50k dpsers and one 20k dpser in five minutes and 45 seconds should be a mathematical impossibility.

    So the solution would be... double HP of mobs, again?​​
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • ezriryanezriryan Member Posts: 150 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    sophlogimo wrote: »

    For HOSE, you either have the choice of "laughably easy" or "not at all".

    Well... the Mission can be done by a single player. So if you have 4 decent players in there.. what wold you expect..

    To have a challenge you either cut back on equipment or number players..
  • cbrjwrrcbrjwrr Member Posts: 2,782 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    Yay, you've progressed to realising the flaw lies with Cryptic's game design, and not the players. Thank you.
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    The borg were defenseless target practice.

    Well observed; of course, that is all they have ever been - when they revamped NPCs, all they did was stack up HP and shields, and maybe add a few special effects. That's it; those NPCs have 4 weapons, 1 perhaps 2 boff slots, perhaps one clicky. And usually 50/50/50/50 power distribution.

    They are totally handicapped right from the start - and Cryptic have been offered help to actually improve them before, because the AI is capable of so much more than what it does, but they chose and continue to choose to ignore it and instead made NPCs sacks of hitpoints on the way to inevitable victory.

    And Cryptic? The powercreep hasn't stopped for a moment because they pump out new shinies all the time; and balance isn't a concern to them because they have systematically driven out of STO the players who care about that -PvPers- and they left themselves with players who just wanted more and more damage. (because of two reasons; first is damage is the only thing that matters to complete the overwhelming majority of STO's content, and by extension the second of players not wanting a change from that.)
    sophlogimo wrote: »

    If Hive Onslaught Elite was actually Hive Onslaught Elite, doing it with four 50k dpsers and one 20k dpser in five minutes and 45 seconds should be a mathematical impossibility.

    But it isn't, because they are just stacks of HP to be shot through, and with how Cryptic develop the game, it is an inevitably that in due time powercreep will be such that HSE will just be DPSed and you won't even need or want a tank anymore.

    Just like ISA, which is now being done a lot quicker than old ISE despite having had the massive health increase; there was a time when you had to carefully take the 4 generators down to minimum health, then finish them off together, then hit the transformer praying you'd take it down before the nanites got there, and then repeat the process on the other side because very few/near no one was strong enough to go for a 3/2 split - that's what it was once.

    And it was Cryptic who broke it.

  • questeriusquesterius Member Posts: 7,563 Arc User
    I have several ships/builds with which i can solo any borg or tholian red alert in less than 5 minutes and i haven't used them in ages except for said red alerts and foundry content on elite difficulty.

    For anything else which pops in a PUG queue the game play is simply boring. Since i don't parse as a matter of principle i don't know the exact DPS, but i estimate it's roughly 40-50k. If gameplay is boring with that amount of deeps, then how can people stand to play the game with builds which throw out even more DPS.

    Hard counters, such as FBP, and less stacking of abilities/traits is desperately needed to keep the game playable.
    This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
  • sunfranckssunfrancks Member Posts: 3,925 Arc User

    cbrjwrr wrote: »
    Yay, you've progressed to realising the flaw lies with Cryptic's game design, and not the players. Thank you.
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    The borg were defenseless target practice.

    Well observed; of course, that is all they have ever been - when they revamped NPCs, all they did was stack up HP and shields, and maybe add a few special effects. That's it; those NPCs have 4 weapons, 1 perhaps 2 boff slots, perhaps one clicky. And usually 50/50/50/50 power distribution.

    They are totally handicapped right from the start - and Cryptic have been offered help to actually improve them before, because the AI is capable of so much more than what it does, but they chose and continue to choose to ignore it and instead made NPCs sacks of hitpoints on the way to inevitable victory.

    And Cryptic? The powercreep hasn't stopped for a moment because they pump out new shinies all the time; and balance isn't a concern to them because they have systematically driven out of STO the players who care about that -PvPers- and they left themselves with players who just wanted more and more damage. (because of two reasons; first is damage is the only thing that matters to complete the overwhelming majority of STO's content, and by extension the second of players not wanting a change from that.)
    sophlogimo wrote: »

    If Hive Onslaught Elite was actually Hive Onslaught Elite, doing it with four 50k dpsers and one 20k dpser in five minutes and 45 seconds should be a mathematical impossibility.

    But it isn't, because they are just stacks of HP to be shot through, and with how Cryptic develop the game, it is an inevitably that in due time powercreep will be such that HSE will just be DPSed and you won't even need or want a tank anymore.

    Just like ISA, which is now being done a lot quicker than old ISE despite having had the massive health increase; there was a time when you had to carefully take the 4 generators down to minimum health, then finish them off together, then hit the transformer praying you'd take it down before the nanites got there, and then repeat the process on the other side because very few/near no one was strong enough to go for a 3/2 split - that's what it was once.

    And it was Cryptic who broke it.

    Yup, Cryptic broke the game and DR was when they did it..
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    Founder, member and former leader to Pride Of The Federation Fleet.
    What I feel after I hear about every decision made since Andre "Mobile Games Generalisimo" Emerson arrived...
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  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 10,441 Arc User
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    (...)
    Yet another way would be to go a more fundamental route and scale down the effectiveness of all the AOE damage abilities in the game, especially BFAW and TS.(...)

    This is a interesting point and something I'd like to see. I doubt it'll happen, but it makes no sense that AoE abilities are likewise if not more effective against single targets AND groups (of course). Funny thing with Cannon Scatter Volley for example. Normal cannon attacks and rapid fire for single targets have to "travel" to the target before damage is calculated, the shots have to get there. With scatter volley the damage is instant and enhanced against all targets in the cone, it can't miss, it can't be dodged - where is the reason in this? But then again, this is how the game is built, the abilities are like this since launch. Not much hope they'll look at it.​​
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    The only way to make sure you get a group of people that play the way you want is to go with a pre-made group. Go with either your fleet members or friends.

    Don't join a PUG and then complain that people kill stuff too fast, it's silly. They kill things fast because they have put considerable time and resources into their builds. Maybe it's not fun for you, but it's fun for them.
    [...]

    There is no PUGging in HOSE. No one queues up for it. In fact, even most channels will not get a team together. The only way I could even play the map was to ask very nice people from the 50k+ dps channel to play it with me.

    For HOSE, you either have the choice of "laughably easy" or "not at all".

    It was very cool of the folks to bring you in on their team. Moving forward you could talk to them (they're even participating in this thread) and get some more details about that map and their plans and builds and strategies.

    Then you yourself get more familiar with that map and how to win at it (even run a few more times with them).

    Then ... start putting together your own Hive Elite group. Leading the way. And getting your friends/fleetmates geared up for being able to defeat it.

    That will include the learning curve. Which will be fun and challenging.

    There are options between you not having fun because a team that already put the content on "farm-mode" ran you through it, and no one runs that "dungeon" in a pick up group. But that option involves getting more involved with a team of folks more akin to your level of gear and experience and then working together to take that journey that the pre-made took to get to their point.

    And really, looking at the posters who brought you in to their team ... they're extremely informative and active on both this forum and others. Just start talking to them. And I bet you could get a really good idea of how to approach that map on your own and work at getting a team together that will face a much bigger challenge with it.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • cbrjwrrcbrjwrr Member Posts: 2,782 Arc User
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    cbrjwrr wrote: »
    Yay, you've progressed to realising the flaw lies with Cryptic's game design, and not the players. Thank you.

    I never said anything else.
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    The borg were defenseless target practice.

    Well observed; of course, that is all they have ever been - when they revamped NPCs, all they did was stack up HP and shields, and maybe add a few special effects. That's it; those NPCs have 4 weapons, 1 perhaps 2 boff slots, perhaps one clicky. And usually 50/50/50/50 power distribution.

    A Borg Tactical Cube has about a hundred times the volume of my vessel. Maybe we should just let them have 800 weapon slots. Yes, I am serious.

    Quite right too, it would be closer to canon that way - although in terms of gameplay, 800 weapons is just going to be a lagfest, and useless because power drain will make only a hundredth of them fire at vaguely useful strength.

    What you've been complaining at is the players, and defending Cryptic's design; and it is very apparent that across all your posts your attitude is the players should adjust -or be adjusted- to suit your notions of the designers, overlooking who it was who created the problem in the first place.
    sunfrancks wrote: »

    Yup, Cryptic broke the game and DR was when they did it..

    It was years before DR; DR is just when the decided to have one big jump.

  • snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    [...]
    It was very cool of the folks to bring you in on their team. Moving forward you could talk to them (they're even participating in this thread) and get some more details about that map and their plans and builds and strategies.

    Well, it is not as if I hadn't played that map on Advanced a hundred times before...
    Then you yourself get more familiar with that map and how to win at it (even run a few more times with them).

    Then ... start putting together your own Hive Elite group. Leading the way. And getting your friends/fleetmates geared up for being able to defeat it.
    [...]

    You are missing the point. By a light year.

    Nah, I get your point. You pretty much want the game to change to automate a progression path for you. But this example is a false alarm in terms of your overall theme of game balance and DPS because to get to the point where the game is no longer fun you skipped the journey.

    It's like back in Everquest and getting invited by a well run guild on a planar raid. Then complaining that it was too easy. But then when you're not along with that guild, your guild can't do the content.

    You skipped ahead and of course that isn't challenging.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,896 Arc User
    Yeah, the game is not well balanced, there has been tons of power creep and if anyone at Cryptic thought they would have a bandaid for that, they were wrong.

    But do we really need another thread with yet another variation of the exact same topic?

    If the devs haven't realized the problem and aren't working on a solution already, then they would be blind or simply not interested in the topic. Another thread with the same people talking in circles about the same topic is not going to change any of that.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    [...]

    Nah, I get your point. You pretty much want the game to change to automate a progression path for you. [...]

    As I said and you have again proven. You are missing the point by a lightyear.

    I want exciting battles. The high dps kills this, because battles with such high DPS, as described, make boring routine out of something that should be a difficult mission.

    Difficult mission is good, easy mission bad. Understood now? :)

    Exciting battles exist in STO. In fact, Hive Space Elite is extremely exciting. Especially in a group that is at your level of DPS output for that map.

    You, however, chose to forego that by tagging along with one of the groups that has very much mastered the encounter and geared up well beyond it's challenge.

    Go into Hive Elite with 4 of your friends and see exactly how exciting it truly is.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • captainoblivouscaptainoblivous Member Posts: 2,283 Arc User
    Oh, it's that dude again. The guy who's always whining about high DPS players.
    OP, if you don't like high DPS players, then don't play with high DPS players. Simple.
    I need a beer.

  • sonsofcainsonsofcain Member Posts: 63 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    e30ernest wrote: »
    As a part of that team, DPS wasn't the only thing at play:

    - You were playing with the "Aggronauts" so you were playing with a team that does HSE as much as some people do ISA: they know the map inside out.
    - We were a coordinated team with coordinated buffs (you asked why we were calling TIPs)
    - We were coordinating fire, shooting at the same targets to bring them down quickly. We were using Sensor Analysis or Command exploits to mark targets.
    - We were flying with dedicated tanks so that the dedicated DPS ships can lay down fire.
    - We came in with a plan and stuck to it.

    Basically, you ran with a team with builds made for that map with memvers who run often enough together to work as a coordinated team. Of course it would be easy.

    Also as I stated, HSE was nerfed when they fixed the tanky Tac Cubes. It was a lot more fun then.

    This. I do a decent amount of DPS myself, and I still find HSE exciting. I don't run it very often. But even when I ran it with some of the Aggronauts/Super high DPS guys, it was still a blast. I knew I was competing with some of the best players in the game, in the hardest map (IMO). That's why a lot of people chase DPS. It's a different way to have fun. Even in ISA I still have fun because I've added extra goal for myself.
  • snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    [...]
    Exciting battles exist in STO. In fact, Hive Space Elite is extremely exciting. Especially in a group that is at your level of DPS output for that map.
    [...]

    Let me repeat this: The way I played the Elite version was the only way that I could make that even happen, because people are either so high in DPS that they kill all the fun or they will refuse to do it (because apparently the roughly 20 minutes a team of 20k dpsers would need is too much time). It wasn't a choice, it was a matter of necessity, because otherwise it wouldn't have been possible to try the mission on Elite level at all.

    And if I followed your advice, I would have to get up to 50k dps first before I would find people in this game to do it. And then, it would not be fun at all, because it wouldn't be exciting. That would utterly defeat the purpose.

    Besides, segregating the community even more is everything but a wise move. There are not enough players to do that. We need game mechanics that bring players together into the queues. That is a dev job. There's no way around it.





    There are tons of options that you're just not really up for doing. You met some folks on this forum who invited you in to their run. Talk to them some more. Find other people with your interest in the encounter who are at your gear level. And then start leading that group. Take the responsibility on to your own shoulders. Put together your own team for Hive Elite. Build that team. And then see exactly how exciting and fun the map is when you are attempting it at your level.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,145 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    As this very thread shows, there are still people who don't even understand what I am saying. So talking about it until everybody understands (not necessarily agrees) is a reasonable approach.

    Everyone understands exactly what you're talking about, so knock it off. They just disagree and you're too thick headed to accept it. You want the game to be altered to be fun for you, don't cry if not everyone agrees with you.

    Every post you make is a complaint about DPS, I think by now we all get it. You're not saying anything that a dozen whiners before you haven't said word for word. You're not a special little snow flake and you're not saying anything that takes a mountain of analysis to understand.

    Find other people that play the way you do, play with them.. and leave the rest of us alone. Just because someone doesn't see things the same way you do doesn't mean they don't understand, so stop being condescending and pretending you're so advanced that no one can possibly understand you.
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    Discovery is good, it's you that sucks.
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