Lol, monster play, let the few PvPers that remain take control of NPCs in STFs, choose the NPC abilities and see what the DPS community makes of the more "elite" content.
Lol, monster play, let the few PvPers that remain take control of NPCs in STFs, choose the NPC abilities and see what the DPS community makes of the more "elite" content.
I can almost imagine the rage on the forum...
As a pvper I love this idea, can I have the million or so HP these Borg cubes come with as well?
Well, you actually don't have to nerf anything, but at least equalize dps for normal queues, so new players may understand mechanics, and have chance to contribute. Advanced and elite may remain the same. Not sure about pvp, but 1 to10 difference in damage (or even more) won't do it any good.
Look how games, where you can't buy firepower for money do. There is still imbalance, premades geared and stuffed with consumables and such. But you can win, and you don't have to grind like crazy, just to participate and have fun. And you can actually have fun. In STO i'll never pvp unless it's friendly match. Because i don't even need to try it to measure how this may end up.
As for people on the otherside who seems to think that having a variance of ~500 DPS to 270+k DPS is somehow okay for the health of a game
Yeah i'm surprised there's people who think this is acceptable for the game. I'm not meaning the difference between a newbie L1 and a L60 player, I mean two L60 players can be so far apart in terms of damage potential it's just absurd. The real reason is that once you have access to and knowledge of how to "exploit" a few chosen items/skills/traits you really are going to have out of control DPS. Things like Plasmonic leech, BFAW, resistance stacking, debuff stacking, doff stacking, cooldown traits etc, all of these are producing ridiculous numbers of DPS and it's taking out any credibility the game has I think.
But nerfing everything won't really help as the experienced players will just find the next trick to exploit.
They need to adjust content so that it requires more than just DPS. Content where heaven forbid....the trinity is required ot get good scores, or to stand a chance at success. Content where being a good player doesn't come down to some gimicky console or stack or traits/buffs/mods on weapons.
I mean if you can run ISA is 50 seconds and do 200K DPS then good for you, but I would be far more impressed it you could run that same build through something less predicatable like Korfez or something with random encounters or a longer time period, something that relied on teamwork or good piloting skill or healing to keep the team alive.
Quite frankly, I think a giant nerf to BFAW will be a good start.
Yes absolutely. BFAW has rapidly done more harm than anything else in STO I feel. It's a skill with no downside that literally is better at multi-target/single-target/heavy hitting/spam clearing than abilities actually designed for those circumstances. That is just plain stupid game design. I can totally understand a cruisers needing it to hit multiple targets and draw aggro but why not give it a huge aggro generating boost so it performs that role. Rather than letting every dammed ship spam it all day long and out-gun specialized builds with no downside.
An alternative to nerf is a boost to HP and DMG of every other high lvl entity in game, including players) It's like dmg cap, but minimal dmg cap, not maximal. Everyone would be happy with their 500k dmg and let's say 5million HP hulls XD
"Let people have fun the way they have it" that was one of the earlier comments... Hmmm
I used to have a lot of fun in PvP (you know, the place where DPS doesn't prove how skilled you are at STO and gives you an actual challenge) but I'm not allowed to have that fun anymore.
Myself and others who enjoy what is often criticised as depravity and an inhospitable environment (saying you PvPed once and didn't like it doesn't mean you can say every PvPer is a bad person and wether you're right) have been insulted, lied to and promised a great many things, have had the worst end of the stick out of the whole community.
And 'why'??? You might ask...
Because Al Rivera and the, speaking frankly, often clueless PvE community don't want to "let us have fun the way we like it".
And 'why', you ask again??
Because the PvP community, read carefully, wants - challenging content.
That's why PvP exists, to test yourself against the other. DPS doesn't offer this! All it says about you is that you can swing a big club around... Whoop-ti-doo!!! It's not very impressive.
It makes players lazy and let's them operate mindlessly by tying everything to the spacebar.
It also spoils the fun for others who still getting to grips with STFs and literally cannot keep up because by the time they start attacking a target it's destroyed.
Sadly, however, without "balance" or a balanced released of powercreep this kind of 'Spcebar Hero' type of play has crept over to PvP where now everyone with enough money, immunities, sci spam and CritD can zip around blowing people up (even farmers in Ker'rat) without a fight.
These people are the scum you hate so very much. They don't want a fair fight, they want to faceroll.
To top it off, both the PvE community and CaptainGecko have given PvP over to these cheese-weilding turnips, that are universally hated, and given them the tools to run rampant.
You the PvE and DPS obsessed community are responsible for the total collapse of balance in the game and the mindlessness of PvE.
The PvP community was asking for gear/ability balance and control checks before the release of new abilities to maintain the fun of the game (which we can argue would be of great benefit to PvE, the only ones who complained were the people who wanted rewards for next to no effort) since before free-to-play and the PvE community fought us every step of the way...
So what's your problem now!? You wanted the imbalance, you obviously wanted to cut skill out of the game entirely, get rewards for nothing [Unnecessary namecalling modded] So why the complaints??
Can you see the problem with letting people "have fun the way they have it"?
It's not fair for everyone.
One can enjoy PvE content and still CARE about PvP gameplay and proper mechanics. Being a part of one group doesn't exclude you from being in, or supporting, the other group. I think that this mentality played a role in allowing the Devs to sell powerCreepDR to the PvE community and laugh at the PvP community. Put the vitriol aside and work together, and we can ge some issues fixed that affect BOTH the PvP and PvE community.
An alternative to nerf is a boost to HP and DMG of every other high lvl entity in game, including players) It's like dmg cap, but minimal dmg cap, not maximal. Everyone would be happy with their 500k dmg and let's say 5million HP hulls XD
Don't gateways and tactical cubes have enough HP already?
Yes, this is somewhat important, but there is one other issue that I would have to be solved first.
steve
they have attempted fixes at this problem child before and they never held and eventually goes the complete polar opposite of what it is now. For overall dps some powers could use a glance at but it is nothing completely apocalyptic. What really matters in damage is your placement and pilot skill because you may have a very powerful gun but that means nothing if ya can't fire it
I can't lay blame on any player 'group' for the state STO is in, and has been in, particularly after "the best expansion ever and the players love it."
Foremost I'd postulate it to be economics: the IP license is without question incredibly expensive, combined with whatever royalties PWE expect, on top of server up-keep, bug fixes, game development, etc.
Developers by definition have to create content that sells. To the suits it doesn't matter whether the game is well received by some die-hard fans or niche group and still is somewhat profitable. If other games do better in terms of profit, they'll shut it down for not meeting their expectations and projections, or cut back on development altogether.
I believe Devs are bound by those demands first and foremost even though they can't openly say this for obvious reasons. There's probably only so much content they can propose and produce that's less popular (less profit potential) before someone pulls the plug on it on that basis alone. On top of that, there's only so much that can be produced given the resources they have to work with.
That much I will acknowledge in their favor. As pointed out in another thread, some Devs are also gamers and enthusiasts of the game itself off work hours, and it has been acknowledged that internal testing does exist and isn't completely outsourced to coders themselves, bug hunters, and everyone else's ongoing bug reporting.
Beyond that, I do question many decisions which really tie in with the game's 'health,' some of which are listed here as they relate to the topic:
- Why PvP wasn't either taken seriously, or removed altogether early on. People, myself included, pay and play/grind for content with the hope for making use of it in PvP as well. I PvP other competitive games, and balance is absolutely essential, as is keeping the paid-for content in completely in check so it never feels like, as others coined, a wallet war (pun not intended). It should be obvious that creating content (PvP maps, scoreboards, etc.) only to have its content removed, monetized into absurdity, power-creeped rapidly, and separated from overall gameplay progression (rewards?) serves only to frustrate those who invested a lot into it, or used it as justification for doing the rest of the PvE gameplay. The mostly silent voices on the matter is because they've long moved on to other games where PvP is taken seriously along with game balance.
- Why haven't PvE content incentives been equalized so that the DPS chasers can stick to elite, nightmare more, whatever, and get their big rewards along with the big risks? Why were those maps removed, and why have new ones not been introduced already even if it involves recycling artwork and content but simply in new ways? Where's the PvE End-Game Content to match the endless end-game oriented lockbox sales upon sales of ever more rare and expensive virtual stuff?
- Why have abilities been left bugged and broken for such a long time (eg. kemocite), especially long after their point of sale? This may be relevant to DPSers lagging each other out as much as they do those around them, and possibly escaping into advanced and even normal difficulty pugs turning maps into non-events as everything is obliterated - I'm partly guilty of this myself but back when such help was actually useful to a team of sub-10K who couldn't tank or CC either whereas now it seems skill revamp power-creeped everyone.
- Where's the balance for different career types (ex. tac skills deal more damage to boss while subnuke they're mostly immune to) or ship types (healers and tank nowadays don't seem relevant while a group of tacs can auto-self-heal based on their own damage output)?
Something is definitely seriously wrong with the state of the game, has been since DR, and in my experience of pugging post skill revamp I can't even find interest in it anymore. It should be as much a DPSer's playground as a PvPer, or Science or Engineering captain, or gimmicky clicky strategy, or whatever else is sold or grinded for.
It isn't the players' job either to figure it out for the developers and cause in-fighting and make the game atmosphere less friendly: they sold the powers and brought on mk 14 gold, lockbox stuff, skill revamps, abilities that leech heals from damage dealt, temporary hit points upon ever more invulnerabilities nevermind the overall game pace itself from CD reductions on top of instant speed boosts, it is their responsibility to sort this mess that's already a sold and a done deal. There's no question new stuff was added since DR that amplified everything (Damage output, Tanking, Healing), and in my opinion it was added carelessly and irresponsibly without considering the repercussions and the gaming environment, including the limitations of NPCs and player progression as a MMO. Reporting on it is really all the assistance we can offer.
Lol, monster play, let the few PvPers that remain take control of NPCs in STFs, choose the NPC abilities and see what the DPS community makes of the more "elite" content.
I can almost imagine the rage on the forum...
As a pvper I love this idea, can I have the million or so HP these Borg cubes come with as well?
Well howbout, Tier 1, you get access to a full suite abilities, but the HPs are set to "normal" mode type HPs. This will be ELITE.
Then Tier 2, you get access to a full suite of abilities AND all those HPs. We'll call that "super insane crazy more elite than elite" or whatever other tag that fits better.
I think that would be fun to try. Would definitely be an radical PvP adjustment.
No, this is not important enough to require developer attention
I see that once again, this going to become an issue of PvE vs. PvP. I get it, as far as STO is concerned, PvP got the short end of the stick. But blaming the DPS crowd isn't going to get you what you want. Start a petition, rally support for your cause, and make your case to the Devs.
I see that once again, this going to become an issue of PvE vs. PvP. I get it, as far as STO is concerned, PvP got the short end of the stick. But blaming the DPS crowd isn't going to get you what you want. Start a petition, rally support for your cause, and make your case to the Devs.
We DID that while we had a community, we got ignored, we had some very frank talks with the devs on these very forums and we achieved nothing, now we have no community because game balance is beyond non-existent so none of the old players are interested and nobody new even wants to consider it and frankly, I don't blame them.
Lol, monster play, let the few PvPers that remain take control of NPCs in STFs, choose the NPC abilities and see what the DPS community makes of the more "elite" content.
I can almost imagine the rage on the forum...
As a pvper I love this idea, can I have the million or so HP these Borg cubes come with as well?
Well howbout, Tier 1, you get access to a full suite abilities, but the HPs are set to "normal" mode type HPs. This will be ELITE.
Then Tier 2, you get access to a full suite of abilities AND all those HPs. We'll call that "super insane crazy more elite than elite" or whatever other tag that fits better.
I think that would be fun to try. Would definitely be an radical PvP adjustment.
This thread just got very interesting to me.
"Super insane crazy more elite than elite" mode is an awesome name and they should totally implement it. The immediate questions this raises though are:
- Do we get to choose our abilities?
-- Do we get a say in the equipment on the ships or is that all pre-set?
-- Do we get access to doff abilities?
- How many weapons do we get? (Remembering that NPCs only get two-four each)
- Do we get our captain skills?
I ask you Soph, if we were to put this sort of thing in a normal STF, who would benefit more: The high DPSer or the low DPSer? Especially if you consider (provided we get to choose our own builds) almost every played NPC would get FBP.
I don't exactly agree with the options, I think more needs to be done to help the 1k-5k get up into the better numbers,
Such as having basic build advice built right into the game and is easy to acess.
E.G. A little dialogue box telling you generally one of type of energy weapon is better and to slot as many tactical consoles for your energy type as you can.
This thread is just silly. DPS is based entirely off of knowledge of the game and the skill of the player. I would know, I was one of those players that went from barely scratching 8k DPS all the way to 59k DPS in the space of two weeks. How did I do it? Easily. I asked around. I got help. I learned what was effective and what was... foolish thinking on my part. Was it costly? No. Was it difficult? No. Did it require any resources outside of game resources? No.
This doesn't need ANYONE's attention. Honestly, if you're really having issues with damage output, talk to some of the DPS communities top players. We are ALL willing to help (for the record I am NOT a top player, but I use WE to mean the vast majority of the DPS league).
I honestly don't know why anyone would think that massive damage output requires dev intervention. Everyone can do it. Just learn how and make minor adjustments.
To put it in simpler and easier terms: The upper DPS players (ie 50-75k players and up) can EASILY hit 15-18k DPS using just mk XII GREEN gear. Green gear. That you can get from NPC drops. If that can be done using what most would consider inferior gear... And you wonder why players hit so high with upper echelon gear. As my mentor in the DPS league once told me (and I've found this to be more or less 100% true), 25% of your DPS is gear, 25% is your team, and the last 50% is all you.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
I don't exactly agree with the options, I think more needs to be done to help the 1k-5k get up into the better numbers,
Such as having basic build advice built right into the game and is easy to acess.
E.G. A little dialogue box telling you generally one of type of energy weapon is better and to slot as many tactical consoles for your energy type as you can.
I would like the ships to come with a decent starter build so new people could get an idea of what is actually designed to work together instead of the random assortment of stuff they give now that serves only as an example of what not to do.
Imagine if when you opened a ship box you got a choice between beams, cannons, torps, hybrid, or cleared. The game would then populate your ship with common rarity gear, set boff abilities to something that makes sense, and equip practical common level doffs.
None of these builds would break any records, but they wouldn't be absolutely worthless out of the box and would convey some basic build knowledge to newer players.
Power trays could be setup to default in a way that groups things that should be activated together for the best benefit.
Once they get the hang of how the different basic types of ship should be setup, they would be free to choose the cleared option on future ships to get rid of the hassle of having to delete all of the junk gear that comes with them now.
I don't exactly agree with the options, I think more needs to be done to help the 1k-5k get up into the better numbers,
Such as having basic build advice built right into the game and is easy to acess.
E.G. A little dialogue box telling you generally one of type of energy weapon is better and to slot as many tactical consoles for your energy type as you can.
I would like the ships to come with a decent starter build so new people could get an idea of what is actually designed to work together instead of the random assortment of stuff they give now that serves only as an example of what not to do.
Imagine if when you opened a ship box you got a choice between beams, cannons, torps, hybrid, or cleared. The game would then populate your ship with common rarity gear, set boff abilities to something that makes sense, and practical common level doffs.
None of these builds would break any records, but they wouldn't be absolutely worthless out of the box and would convey some basic build knowledge to newer players.
Power trays could be setup to default in a way that groups things that should be activated together for the best benefit.
Once they get the hang of how the different basic types of ship should be setup, they would be free to choose the cleared option on future ships to get rid of the hassle of having to delete all of the junk gear that comes with them now.
Yeah, I actually agree with this. The main problem is that the game doesn't teach you much about actual combat. It doesn't teach you about buffs, debuffs, or really how to fight. I was fine when I first started since I came to this game from another space combat simulator MMO (BSGO), but if I had come in fresh, I wouldn't have known much about anything and would have been lost. Badly.
If the game had a somewhat better combat tutorial that actually taught you the importance of buffs, heals, debuffs, etc, then a lot of the DPS issues I see would disappear.
To put into perspective, when I run around in some combat zones (ie voth space, undine space, etc), I tend to see players engaging enemy ships in very... odd manners. One of the most common things I see is what I call the "Turret Mode" tactic. Players stay stationary and just fire at enemy ships. They will occasionally be moving slowly to keep up turn rate, but for the most part, they are just stationary. High DPS players will tell you that's very bad. Another one I see is the pew pew pew no buffs pew pew pew. My absolute favorite though is the fly in, fire fire fire... fly past... keep on flying... turn around again 20k later... XD.
Now I won't deny the tutorial is helpful. It teaches you the basics for the UI, and also gives you... SOME pointers on flying, and it's also better than the tutorials of some other games I've played (let's look at Destiny for example. NO TUTORIAL WHATSOEVER). But as much as it's a halfway decent setup, it doesn't teach you much about actual combat buffs etc. The Rommie tutorial hints at it (Quoting tovan: I've found a way to enhance the torpedoes on this ship), and there are later references to ambush by way of cloaking, but other than that... NOPE.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
I see that once again, this going to become an issue of PvE vs. PvP. I get it, as far as STO is concerned, PvP got the short end of the stick. But blaming the DPS crowd isn't going to get you what you want. Start a petition, rally support for your cause, and make your case to the Devs.
We DID that while we had a community, we got ignored, we had some very frank talks with the devs on these very forums and we achieved nothing, now we have no community because game balance is beyond non-existent so none of the old players are interested and nobody new even wants to consider it and frankly, I don't blame them.
Lol, monster play, let the few PvPers that remain take control of NPCs in STFs, choose the NPC abilities and see what the DPS community makes of the more "elite" content.
I can almost imagine the rage on the forum...
As a pvper I love this idea, can I have the million or so HP these Borg cubes come with as well?
Well howbout, Tier 1, you get access to a full suite abilities, but the HPs are set to "normal" mode type HPs. This will be ELITE.
Then Tier 2, you get access to a full suite of abilities AND all those HPs. We'll call that "super insane crazy more elite than elite" or whatever other tag that fits better.
I think that would be fun to try. Would definitely be an radical PvP adjustment.
This thread just got very interesting to me.
"Super insane crazy more elite than elite" mode is an awesome name and they should totally implement it. The immediate questions this raises though are:
- Do we get to choose our abilities?
-- Do we get a say in the equipment on the ships or is that all pre-set?
-- Do we get access to doff abilities?
- How many weapons do we get? (Remembering that NPCs only get two-four each)
- Do we get our captain skills?
Oooh.
Choose abilities? Yes. I think this is where you can really leverage the challenge. Allowing that type of flexibility so that players need to stay on their toes. And that gets into the heart of the "versus" challenge.
Choose equipment? I'd lean toward pre-set, but make them powerful (I mean hell you're in a Borg tactical CUBE). But even then, maybe offer a choice of pre-sets? This is Monster Play. So some customization can be done?
DOFF abilities seems harder to pull off.
Weapons? Keep it at NPC level. But also, you know, make them hit hard to make it challenging!
Captain Skills? YES!
This is just my opinion. There's definitely a case to be made for yes or no to each question. But wow, this could definitely be a lot of fun. It's got potential to really draw in both the PVE and PVP crowd. You're using the Borg (people love fighting the Borg). You're using maps that are popular. You're upping the challenge.
Sure there's a ton of obstacles and this still might not work. But it's fun to speculate. I dig this.
EDIT: Marketing Strategy ...
"Star Trek Online: YOU'VE BEEN ASSIMILATED!"
Beam yourself up to the new Star Trek Online expansion, introducing "monster play" (or whatever they call it), where you get ASSIMILATED and become the Borg. Help your new collective to fight the combined efforts of the Galactic Alliance. Show the galaxy that resistance IS futile!
Maybe even give out a special "Locutus of Borg" DOFF for some sort of pre-order of something related to this.
I think this can be built. I think some monetization can be built into it to fit the STO model. I think it has the potential to really invigorate both sets of players.
No, this is not important enough to require developer attention
The Devs could also do the samething with gear as they did with the skills. Get rid of useless TRIBBLE. Consoles that have no fleet or lockbox equivalent, or have been abandoned by all but the most uninformed players, space sets that fool unsuspecting players into setups that will always underperform, etc. As was mentioned with the the default load out of weapons, having gear choices that will never be worth slotting only serves to confuse. Never seen and epic monotanium consolem? I have. The fact that some players wasted their resources on gilding such a useless console is just sad. The fact that it was even a possibility is a travesty.
I see that once again, this going to become an issue of PvE vs. PvP. I get it, as far as STO is concerned, PvP got the short end of the stick. But blaming the DPS crowd isn't going to get you what you want. Start a petition, rally support for your cause, and make your case to the Devs.
We DID that while we had a community, we got ignored, we had some very frank talks with the devs on these very forums and we achieved nothing, now we have no community because game balance is beyond non-existent so none of the old players are interested and nobody new even wants to consider it and frankly, I don't blame them.
Lol, monster play, let the few PvPers that remain take control of NPCs in STFs, choose the NPC abilities and see what the DPS community makes of the more "elite" content.
I can almost imagine the rage on the forum...
As a pvper I love this idea, can I have the million or so HP these Borg cubes come with as well?
Well howbout, Tier 1, you get access to a full suite abilities, but the HPs are set to "normal" mode type HPs. This will be ELITE.
Then Tier 2, you get access to a full suite of abilities AND all those HPs. We'll call that "super insane crazy more elite than elite" or whatever other tag that fits better.
I think that would be fun to try. Would definitely be an radical PvP adjustment.
This thread just got very interesting to me.
"Super insane crazy more elite than elite" mode is an awesome name and they should totally implement it. The immediate questions this raises though are:
- Do we get to choose our abilities?
-- Do we get a say in the equipment on the ships or is that all pre-set?
-- Do we get access to doff abilities?
- How many weapons do we get? (Remembering that NPCs only get two-four each)
- Do we get our captain skills?
Choose abilities? Yes. I think this is where you can really leverage the challenge. Allowing that type of flexibility so that players need to stay on their toes. And that gets into the heart of the "versus" challenge.
Choose equipment? I'd lean toward pre-set, but make them powerful (I mean hell you're in a Borg tactical CUBE). But even then, maybe offer a choice of pre-sets? This is Monster Play. So some customization can be done?
DOFF abilities seems harder to pull off.
Weapons? Keep it at NPC level. But also, you know, make them hit hard to make it challenging!
Captain Skills? YES!
This is just my opinion. There's definitely a case to be made for yes or no to each question. But wow, this could definitely be a lot of fun. It's got potential to really draw in both the PVE and PVP crowd. You're using the Borg (people love fighting the Borg). You're using maps that are popular. You're upping the challenge.
Sure there's a ton of obstacles and this still might not work. But it's fun to speculate. I dig this.
I agree with choosing abilities, to a great extent I agree with choosing from equipment pre-sets, maybe make it so faction equipment sets (Borg, MACO, Honour guard, etc) are in all of them, same for weapon type.
I'm not sure on doffs myself, I know at least some NPCs use them so perhaps make it so all doff skills are available? (If only in the Borg case) Given that you can only use so many with 12/13 skills anyway.
I'm not sure on weapons now either, I consider one of the problems with NPCs to be that they lack weapons and thus lack pressure damage capability.
And yeah, I thought captain abilities should be available, SNB could be fun and Borg photo fleet mwahahaha.
Ooh! I just had a genius idea toward monetisation, they can sell upgrades in the same way they do for players (new rep passive slots, doff slots, etc) NPC only abilities you can buy like their named officer skills... That'd be cool.
E.G. A little dialogue box telling you generally one of type of energy weapon is better and to slot as many tactical consoles for your energy type as you can.
Well, like I mentioned earlier, that doesn't seem to have as much effect on DPS as all the other stuff - what boff abilities you use & how you use them (100% uptime, cooldown reductions, etc), traits, ship positioning/etc (parking at a good range vs swooping passes vs whatever), carefully chosen & stacked boff/doff passives....
You can have a full set of Mk12+ purple/gold weapons & tac consoles, and still have lousy DPS. Just like the good DPSers can make great DPS with Mk10 greens.
One of the biggest barriers to getting lower tier or newbie players up to the same level as us "oldies" is the cost.
Simply testing out a skill setup and respecing will set you back 300Z, and that's a lot if you're trying to get a build working right with little other guidance (remember not every player speaks English or comes on these forums!).
And say you think a trait off a T6 ship might help you out, that's gonna cost you 3000Z, and it might not work for you even then. Plus you've got the expense of lobi & lockbox items that can't be tested properly prior to use (outside of Tribble, which most casuals don't realise is there).
It's a lot of expenses for someone who could be a casual playing maybe an hour a week or so and just wants to fly in a few space battles. They maybe don't have the time or finances to build a 50K DPS monster build but they want to go kill some Borg all the same.
We've all got builds doing 10, 20, 30, 40K etc...., but we've learned that all over time and also through this forum i'd guess. A lot of people don't have the time to go searching the interwebs for help or advice if they are casual. The game gives no guidance on how to build a ship and then it charges you a fortune to open/unlock/redo anything. No wonder some players can barely do 10K.
Comments
I can almost imagine the rage on the forum...
As a pvper I love this idea, can I have the million or so HP these Borg cubes come with as well?
Look how games, where you can't buy firepower for money do. There is still imbalance, premades geared and stuffed with consumables and such. But you can win, and you don't have to grind like crazy, just to participate and have fun. And you can actually have fun. In STO i'll never pvp unless it's friendly match. Because i don't even need to try it to measure how this may end up.
Yeah i'm surprised there's people who think this is acceptable for the game. I'm not meaning the difference between a newbie L1 and a L60 player, I mean two L60 players can be so far apart in terms of damage potential it's just absurd. The real reason is that once you have access to and knowledge of how to "exploit" a few chosen items/skills/traits you really are going to have out of control DPS. Things like Plasmonic leech, BFAW, resistance stacking, debuff stacking, doff stacking, cooldown traits etc, all of these are producing ridiculous numbers of DPS and it's taking out any credibility the game has I think.
But nerfing everything won't really help as the experienced players will just find the next trick to exploit.
They need to adjust content so that it requires more than just DPS. Content where heaven forbid....the trinity is required ot get good scores, or to stand a chance at success. Content where being a good player doesn't come down to some gimicky console or stack or traits/buffs/mods on weapons.
I mean if you can run ISA is 50 seconds and do 200K DPS then good for you, but I would be far more impressed it you could run that same build through something less predicatable like Korfez or something with random encounters or a longer time period, something that relied on teamwork or good piloting skill or healing to keep the team alive.
Yes absolutely. BFAW has rapidly done more harm than anything else in STO I feel. It's a skill with no downside that literally is better at multi-target/single-target/heavy hitting/spam clearing than abilities actually designed for those circumstances. That is just plain stupid game design. I can totally understand a cruisers needing it to hit multiple targets and draw aggro but why not give it a huge aggro generating boost so it performs that role. Rather than letting every dammed ship spam it all day long and out-gun specialized builds with no downside.
One can enjoy PvE content and still CARE about PvP gameplay and proper mechanics. Being a part of one group doesn't exclude you from being in, or supporting, the other group. I think that this mentality played a role in allowing the Devs to sell powerCreepDR to the PvE community and laugh at the PvP community. Put the vitriol aside and work together, and we can ge some issues fixed that affect BOTH the PvP and PvE community.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
Don't gateways and tactical cubes have enough HP already?
they have attempted fixes at this problem child before and they never held and eventually goes the complete polar opposite of what it is now. For overall dps some powers could use a glance at but it is nothing completely apocalyptic. What really matters in damage is your placement and pilot skill because you may have a very powerful gun but that means nothing if ya can't fire it
Foremost I'd postulate it to be economics: the IP license is without question incredibly expensive, combined with whatever royalties PWE expect, on top of server up-keep, bug fixes, game development, etc.
Developers by definition have to create content that sells. To the suits it doesn't matter whether the game is well received by some die-hard fans or niche group and still is somewhat profitable. If other games do better in terms of profit, they'll shut it down for not meeting their expectations and projections, or cut back on development altogether.
I believe Devs are bound by those demands first and foremost even though they can't openly say this for obvious reasons. There's probably only so much content they can propose and produce that's less popular (less profit potential) before someone pulls the plug on it on that basis alone. On top of that, there's only so much that can be produced given the resources they have to work with.
That much I will acknowledge in their favor. As pointed out in another thread, some Devs are also gamers and enthusiasts of the game itself off work hours, and it has been acknowledged that internal testing does exist and isn't completely outsourced to coders themselves, bug hunters, and everyone else's ongoing bug reporting.
Beyond that, I do question many decisions which really tie in with the game's 'health,' some of which are listed here as they relate to the topic:
- Why PvP wasn't either taken seriously, or removed altogether early on. People, myself included, pay and play/grind for content with the hope for making use of it in PvP as well. I PvP other competitive games, and balance is absolutely essential, as is keeping the paid-for content in completely in check so it never feels like, as others coined, a wallet war (pun not intended). It should be obvious that creating content (PvP maps, scoreboards, etc.) only to have its content removed, monetized into absurdity, power-creeped rapidly, and separated from overall gameplay progression (rewards?) serves only to frustrate those who invested a lot into it, or used it as justification for doing the rest of the PvE gameplay. The mostly silent voices on the matter is because they've long moved on to other games where PvP is taken seriously along with game balance.
- Why haven't PvE content incentives been equalized so that the DPS chasers can stick to elite, nightmare more, whatever, and get their big rewards along with the big risks? Why were those maps removed, and why have new ones not been introduced already even if it involves recycling artwork and content but simply in new ways? Where's the PvE End-Game Content to match the endless end-game oriented lockbox sales upon sales of ever more rare and expensive virtual stuff?
- Why have abilities been left bugged and broken for such a long time (eg. kemocite), especially long after their point of sale? This may be relevant to DPSers lagging each other out as much as they do those around them, and possibly escaping into advanced and even normal difficulty pugs turning maps into non-events as everything is obliterated - I'm partly guilty of this myself but back when such help was actually useful to a team of sub-10K who couldn't tank or CC either whereas now it seems skill revamp power-creeped everyone.
- Where's the balance for different career types (ex. tac skills deal more damage to boss while subnuke they're mostly immune to) or ship types (healers and tank nowadays don't seem relevant while a group of tacs can auto-self-heal based on their own damage output)?
Something is definitely seriously wrong with the state of the game, has been since DR, and in my experience of pugging post skill revamp I can't even find interest in it anymore. It should be as much a DPSer's playground as a PvPer, or Science or Engineering captain, or gimmicky clicky strategy, or whatever else is sold or grinded for.
It isn't the players' job either to figure it out for the developers and cause in-fighting and make the game atmosphere less friendly: they sold the powers and brought on mk 14 gold, lockbox stuff, skill revamps, abilities that leech heals from damage dealt, temporary hit points upon ever more invulnerabilities nevermind the overall game pace itself from CD reductions on top of instant speed boosts, it is their responsibility to sort this mess that's already a sold and a done deal. There's no question new stuff was added since DR that amplified everything (Damage output, Tanking, Healing), and in my opinion it was added carelessly and irresponsibly without considering the repercussions and the gaming environment, including the limitations of NPCs and player progression as a MMO. Reporting on it is really all the assistance we can offer.
Well howbout, Tier 1, you get access to a full suite abilities, but the HPs are set to "normal" mode type HPs. This will be ELITE.
Then Tier 2, you get access to a full suite of abilities AND all those HPs. We'll call that "super insane crazy more elite than elite" or whatever other tag that fits better.
I think that would be fun to try. Would definitely be an radical PvP adjustment.
This thread just got very interesting to me.
We DID that while we had a community, we got ignored, we had some very frank talks with the devs on these very forums and we achieved nothing, now we have no community because game balance is beyond non-existent so none of the old players are interested and nobody new even wants to consider it and frankly, I don't blame them.
"Super insane crazy more elite than elite" mode is an awesome name and they should totally implement it. The immediate questions this raises though are:
- Do we get to choose our abilities?
-- Do we get a say in the equipment on the ships or is that all pre-set?
-- Do we get access to doff abilities?
- How many weapons do we get? (Remembering that NPCs only get two-four each)
- Do we get our captain skills?
Such as having basic build advice built right into the game and is easy to acess.
E.G. A little dialogue box telling you generally one of type of energy weapon is better and to slot as many tactical consoles for your energy type as you can.
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This doesn't need ANYONE's attention. Honestly, if you're really having issues with damage output, talk to some of the DPS communities top players. We are ALL willing to help (for the record I am NOT a top player, but I use WE to mean the vast majority of the DPS league).
I honestly don't know why anyone would think that massive damage output requires dev intervention. Everyone can do it. Just learn how and make minor adjustments.
To put it in simpler and easier terms: The upper DPS players (ie 50-75k players and up) can EASILY hit 15-18k DPS using just mk XII GREEN gear. Green gear. That you can get from NPC drops. If that can be done using what most would consider inferior gear... And you wonder why players hit so high with upper echelon gear. As my mentor in the DPS league once told me (and I've found this to be more or less 100% true), 25% of your DPS is gear, 25% is your team, and the last 50% is all you.
I would like the ships to come with a decent starter build so new people could get an idea of what is actually designed to work together instead of the random assortment of stuff they give now that serves only as an example of what not to do.
Imagine if when you opened a ship box you got a choice between beams, cannons, torps, hybrid, or cleared. The game would then populate your ship with common rarity gear, set boff abilities to something that makes sense, and equip practical common level doffs.
None of these builds would break any records, but they wouldn't be absolutely worthless out of the box and would convey some basic build knowledge to newer players.
Power trays could be setup to default in a way that groups things that should be activated together for the best benefit.
Once they get the hang of how the different basic types of ship should be setup, they would be free to choose the cleared option on future ships to get rid of the hassle of having to delete all of the junk gear that comes with them now.
Yeah, I actually agree with this. The main problem is that the game doesn't teach you much about actual combat. It doesn't teach you about buffs, debuffs, or really how to fight. I was fine when I first started since I came to this game from another space combat simulator MMO (BSGO), but if I had come in fresh, I wouldn't have known much about anything and would have been lost. Badly.
If the game had a somewhat better combat tutorial that actually taught you the importance of buffs, heals, debuffs, etc, then a lot of the DPS issues I see would disappear.
To put into perspective, when I run around in some combat zones (ie voth space, undine space, etc), I tend to see players engaging enemy ships in very... odd manners. One of the most common things I see is what I call the "Turret Mode" tactic. Players stay stationary and just fire at enemy ships. They will occasionally be moving slowly to keep up turn rate, but for the most part, they are just stationary. High DPS players will tell you that's very bad. Another one I see is the pew pew pew no buffs pew pew pew. My absolute favorite though is the fly in, fire fire fire... fly past... keep on flying... turn around again 20k later... XD.
Now I won't deny the tutorial is helpful. It teaches you the basics for the UI, and also gives you... SOME pointers on flying, and it's also better than the tutorials of some other games I've played (let's look at Destiny for example. NO TUTORIAL WHATSOEVER). But as much as it's a halfway decent setup, it doesn't teach you much about actual combat buffs etc. The Rommie tutorial hints at it (Quoting tovan: I've found a way to enhance the torpedoes on this ship), and there are later references to ambush by way of cloaking, but other than that... NOPE.
Oooh.
Choose abilities? Yes. I think this is where you can really leverage the challenge. Allowing that type of flexibility so that players need to stay on their toes. And that gets into the heart of the "versus" challenge.
Choose equipment? I'd lean toward pre-set, but make them powerful (I mean hell you're in a Borg tactical CUBE). But even then, maybe offer a choice of pre-sets? This is Monster Play. So some customization can be done?
DOFF abilities seems harder to pull off.
Weapons? Keep it at NPC level. But also, you know, make them hit hard to make it challenging!
Captain Skills? YES!
This is just my opinion. There's definitely a case to be made for yes or no to each question. But wow, this could definitely be a lot of fun. It's got potential to really draw in both the PVE and PVP crowd. You're using the Borg (people love fighting the Borg). You're using maps that are popular. You're upping the challenge.
Sure there's a ton of obstacles and this still might not work. But it's fun to speculate. I dig this.
EDIT: Marketing Strategy ...
"Star Trek Online: YOU'VE BEEN ASSIMILATED!"
Beam yourself up to the new Star Trek Online expansion, introducing "monster play" (or whatever they call it), where you get ASSIMILATED and become the Borg. Help your new collective to fight the combined efforts of the Galactic Alliance. Show the galaxy that resistance IS futile!
Maybe even give out a special "Locutus of Borg" DOFF for some sort of pre-order of something related to this.
I think this can be built. I think some monetization can be built into it to fit the STO model. I think it has the potential to really invigorate both sets of players.
Either it be through preset build or more/better tutorials
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I agree with choosing abilities, to a great extent I agree with choosing from equipment pre-sets, maybe make it so faction equipment sets (Borg, MACO, Honour guard, etc) are in all of them, same for weapon type.
I'm not sure on doffs myself, I know at least some NPCs use them so perhaps make it so all doff skills are available? (If only in the Borg case) Given that you can only use so many with 12/13 skills anyway.
I'm not sure on weapons now either, I consider one of the problems with NPCs to be that they lack weapons and thus lack pressure damage capability.
And yeah, I thought captain abilities should be available, SNB could be fun and Borg photo fleet mwahahaha.
Ooh! I just had a genius idea toward monetisation, they can sell upgrades in the same way they do for players (new rep passive slots, doff slots, etc) NPC only abilities you can buy like their named officer skills... That'd be cool.
Well, like I mentioned earlier, that doesn't seem to have as much effect on DPS as all the other stuff - what boff abilities you use & how you use them (100% uptime, cooldown reductions, etc), traits, ship positioning/etc (parking at a good range vs swooping passes vs whatever), carefully chosen & stacked boff/doff passives....
You can have a full set of Mk12+ purple/gold weapons & tac consoles, and still have lousy DPS. Just like the good DPSers can make great DPS with Mk10 greens.
Simply testing out a skill setup and respecing will set you back 300Z, and that's a lot if you're trying to get a build working right with little other guidance (remember not every player speaks English or comes on these forums!).
And say you think a trait off a T6 ship might help you out, that's gonna cost you 3000Z, and it might not work for you even then. Plus you've got the expense of lobi & lockbox items that can't be tested properly prior to use (outside of Tribble, which most casuals don't realise is there).
It's a lot of expenses for someone who could be a casual playing maybe an hour a week or so and just wants to fly in a few space battles. They maybe don't have the time or finances to build a 50K DPS monster build but they want to go kill some Borg all the same.
We've all got builds doing 10, 20, 30, 40K etc...., but we've learned that all over time and also through this forum i'd guess. A lot of people don't have the time to go searching the interwebs for help or advice if they are casual. The game gives no guidance on how to build a ship and then it charges you a fortune to open/unlock/redo anything. No wonder some players can barely do 10K.