PvP is beyond unplayable for everyone and has only gotten worse

meteoricone

PvP is beyond unplayable for everyone and continues to get worse every day. As it stands now, it is uncompetitive and unfun due to a monopoly of uncounterable and unavoidable abilities and damage types. I have personally witnessed countless hundreds of former players completely abandon this game every time it gets worse and without change I will join them.

There are a number of easily implementable solutions which also happen to follow canon technology more closely:

1. Give players immunity or near immunity to Feedback Pulse damage much like how players receive reduced damage from raiders' aft damage bonus or decimate its damage overall and risk angering the PvE community. When a single player on a team has Feedback Pulse and Counter-Offensive doing >90% of their total damage, they win 15 - 0 because of it, again and again.

2. Make Tractor Beam, Tractor Beam Repulsors, and all the rest of the magically shield ignoring kinetic/physical damage abilities not ignore shields since "Shields drastically reduce the effects of kinetic damage." which is what they are primarily designed and meant to do. When a single player on a team has Tractor Beam Repulsors doing >75% of their total damage, they win 15 - 0 because of it, again and again.

3. Decimate Kemocite Explosion damage since it always triggers more than 5 times at once when using spread/salvo and does 10k damage on average from anyone in PvP which is more than enough to kill anyone.

These are only the most egregious examples of the utter lack of attention given to the balance and playability of Player versus Player combat. Only when these issues are properly and effectively addressed will the vast numbers of players who have abandoned this game even consider returning.

yoda2005

Depending on the players in enemy team, scis do between 10 and 30% of their damagr with FBP.
If you now see players shooting surgical or faw and destroying your own ship within seconds although you are at 99% defense and 60% ResAll, it should be clear FBP is ok against this.
TB and TBR are normal skills, torps and energy weapons can get about 100% shieldpen too, I wonder why only TBR is meh now. Special note: use polarize hull for TBR immunity.
Basically everything has too much shieldpen and deals too much damage, if something got reduced, it should be >all< dmg snd ShPen.

odinforever20000

meteoricone wrote: »

PvP is beyond unplayable for everyone and continues to get worse every day. As it stands now, it is uncompetitive and unfun due to a monopoly of uncounterable and unavoidable abilities and damage types. I have personally witnessed countless hundreds of former players completely abandon this game every time it gets worse and without change I will join them.

There are a number of easily implementable solutions which also happen to follow canon technology more closely:

1. Give players immunity or near immunity to Feedback Pulse damage much like how players receive reduced damage from raiders' aft damage bonus or decimate its damage overall and risk angering the PvE community. When a single player on a team has Feedback Pulse and Counter-Offensive doing >90% of their total damage, they win 15 - 0 because of it, again and again.

2. Make Tractor Beam, Tractor Beam Repulsors, and all the rest of the magically shield ignoring kinetic/physical damage abilities not ignore shields since "Shields drastically reduce the effects of kinetic damage." which is what they are primarily designed and meant to do. When a single player on a team has Tractor Beam Repulsors doing >75% of their total damage, they win 15 - 0 because of it, again and again.

3. Decimate Kemocite Explosion damage since it always triggers more than 5 times at once when using spread/salvo and does 10k damage on average from anyone in PvP which is more than enough to kill anyone.

These are only the most egregious examples of the utter lack of attention given to the balance and playability of Player versus Player combat. Only when these issues are properly and effectively addressed will the vast numbers of players who have abandoned this game even consider returning.

The first two have quick and easy counters (FBP and TBR).. If you want an "Immunity" to FBP there is that too..
As to Kemocite...Well Someones prolly using the sci ultimate and Torpspread..As well as some serious shield pen and debuffing..

Unknown

This content has been removed.

odinforever20000

Im not defending Sto Pvp.. Just saying the Sci abilities are easily countered.
TBR is hard countered by Pol hul...And its the Primary source of damage for Science ships with a 3x3 weapon load-out.

Going straight beams, Sci ships have a severe disadvantage against cruisers with 8 weapons or Escorts with 7 and 5 Tac consoles.
Thats why you see a combination of FBP (Defensive but the activating ship can still be destroyed with it up) ,DBR (nasty debuff beam that requires you fly towards or 90 degrees from where it originates) and TBR (Beams of death restricted to a 5km range) on most sci ships.

I would complain about Kemocite..but I don't know how to make it work as good as its worked on me while piloting a sci ship.Tho I assume its players with lots of debuffs and High on board Crit Chance.

I assume he hasn't been to Ker'rat with where he can be placated every 10 seconds and his Opponent the battle cloaks.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

risingwolfshadow

Nerf to weapons in general and stacking damage with buffs would be good tbh. But TBR dealing 5-6k+ damage is not right in any way shape or form seeing as it's meant to be a control ability. That's a bit like me being able to kill someone with beam target weapons or tactical team.

Balance is necessary.
Sci ships were dangerous and lethal before DR, let alone after the insane buff sci abilities got after DR.
No good PvPer before DR (especially vapers) would challenge a palisade, wells or vesta on their own and even with a teammate sometimes without checking their buff list.

Especially when a well kitted out of the afore mentioned would handle up to 4+ ships (including vapers) in one go under sustained fire without dropping shields (before DR).

Science shipsshould be prickly targets to deal with in PvP (like catching a porcupine!) not like stepping on a thermonuclear landmine.

odinforever20000

risingwolfshadow wrote: »

Nerf to weapons in general and stacking damage with buffs would be good tbh. But TBR dealing 5-6k+ damage is not right in any way shape or form seeing as it's meant to be a control ability. That's a bit like me being able to kill someone with beam target weapons or tactical team.

Balance is necessary.
Sci ships were dangerous and lethal before DR, let alone after the insane buff sci abilities got after DR.
No good PvPer before DR (especially vapers) would challenge a palisade, wells or vesta on their own and even with a teammate sometimes without checking their buff list.

Especially when a well kitted out of the afore mentioned would handle up to 4+ ships (including vapers) in one go under sustained fire without dropping shields (before DR).

Science ships should be prickly targets to deal with in PvP (like catching a porcupine!) not like stepping on a thermonuclear landmine.

Ha.."handle up to 4 ships"...Well I got ganked in Ker'rat yesterday 4 against 1. All different types using all manner of weaponry (Beams ,torps and exotics (right @rck01?). Lasted about...15-20 seconds.Keep in mind, using FBP doesn't make the player immune to damage...they just get to send more of it back is all.

Yea but its (Typically TBR 3) 5-6k damage when your debuffed (usually cleared by TT) and they have to stay inside 5km (something beam users don't have to do anymore). Plus the ..you know..insta-tbr/tb immunity known as Pol hul..It takes skill to make it work for the abilitys duration and its so easily countered..Knowing that..you have to carefully choose the heals and counters you are gonna use..Meaning You cant build to counter everything.

Sci ships using FBP are prickly (more so now there are 2 other passive reflects available and in use)...its the beam users is who makes them out to be thermonuclear landmines..But again..this is another ability that is easily countered with several valid work arounds.

risingwolfshadow

What I mentioned in my previous comment was pre-DR, I am very well aware of the changes, current situation and firmly believe STO is overdue a gear/power balance.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

odinforever20000

starwrathforever wrote: »

I came here only to say this...
F...ing evul sci fbpers, drainers, spammers, viral matrix abusers!
I hate you all!

..So...is that all of Sci except healers?

Unknown

This content has been removed.

odinforever20000

starwrathforever wrote: »

odinforever20000 wrote: »

starwrathforever wrote: »

I came here only to say this...
F...ing evul sci fbpers, drainers, spammers, viral matrix abusers!
I hate you all!

..So...is that all of Sci except healers?

Lol...of course I love sci healers! You are a smart evul!

but Evul..and therefore must be destroyed

kyle223cat

Engineer healers are better.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

yoda2005

Noo evul eng!

Unknown

This content has been removed.

bltrrn

patrickngo wrote: »

risingwolfshadow wrote: »

What I mentioned in my previous comment was pre-DR, I am very well aware of the changes, current situation and firmly believe STO is overdue a gear/power balance.

Last Dev that took that on, left in the middle of it (Adjudicatorhawk was mid-stream doing rebalance work when he suddenly found it better to be working anywhere but Cryptic.)

The fact is, they really wouldn't have to do much as far as a deep rebalancing, if they figured out a force-balancing mechanism that allowed for asymmetrical force-composition that leads to force balance. (in other wargaming, the term is usually some form of Battlevalue or Combat Value scoring.) the fundamental problem being, those types of systems tend to be based on objective numbers, and require some preparation before they can be useful...and of course, you have to have them in the first place, and you have to have firm numbers on your gear/items/powers, including multipliers for synergies, worked out before release.

The second problem, is the introduction of "Immunities" instead of "Resistances" and the runaway with some combinations or powers (looking at pre-review Ionic Turbulence).

Basically, so much stuff was stacked in pre-broken and only reviewed in order to make the next pre-broken powers/items/stuff saleable, that it's a real question if the mechanics guys even know how their mechanics even work when they work as they're supposed to work!

and it's not just PvP-anyone who's gotten an AFK penalty in a one-minute or less CCA or ISA can see exactly how this is happening...to PvE.

remember all those folks saying "This is a PvE game!" well, it's still a dogs-dinner-after-digestion when you look at the usual standards for PvE play.

Fact is, this is neither a PvP game, nor a PvE game-it's an art showcase with celebrity voiceovers.

because that's all the resources the development team really has.

PvE opponents-what are the characteristics?

Frigates-with more Hitpoints than a player dreadnought, that spam the same three abilities mindlessly. NPC AI is nonexistent and more than half your inbuilt abilities on a science ship are worthless in PvE (subsystem targeting comprises four slots on your tray-but NPCs do not have subsystems. They aren't impacted by Subnuke either, they don't buff, they just get their HP bumped up periodically.)

Mass Quantities on Scripted Paths. You can beat any PvE in the game with a knowledge of the script and a stopwatch, you don't even need to watch the screen.

Opponents hardly, if ever, use survival skills players have to rely on-"Tactical Team" folks. When they do, it's on a timer and there are no 'if/then' statements that would grant them some flexibility...

Every interactible object in the game is highlighted to an extreme distance. There is no 'finding' items, you don't have to search, it tells you exactly where to go, and pops dialogue boxes when it's time to hit 'f'.

Last puzzle they made for the game, was in the 2800 arc, and that's pretty much ruined by "Kurland Here!!"

everything in terms of rewards? is structured to repetition,not replayability. You're moving a slider from left, to right. taht's what you're there for, and that pushes for an "efficiency' mindset after a very short time. (hence the venom and vitriol over STFs in the PvE threads).

What I'm saying, is that PvE is also broken.

both need reworking, the chances that said reworking will result in a better game on either end of the PvE/PvP spectrum aren't that good-the revamp of the skill tree hasn't improved PvP, OR PvE-the same builds still dominate, with only a short amount of time needed to reinterpret what was done.

Exploration: where? It was removed. The reason it was removed, was that someone had difficulty finding their way around the clusters. I want you to think about this...what it really means.

Cryptic lacks the budget and mindset to address these problems. Their business model is part of the problem and why it won't be solved, but that business model is also driven by the mindset of the development team, esp. the Lead Developer.

a Lead Developer who couldn't sell klingon things to klingon players-that's like a smack dealer who can't sell heroin to a junkie.

I couldn't have said it better, myself.

risingwolfshadow

I really don't understand cryptic's refusal to notice that their combat system alone is amazing, very strategic once you get your head around it, it was brilliant and with a little more work it could be the best combat system of any mmo. But no! They just trample all over it with unregulated powercreep and give their community a kick in the teeth!

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

odinforever20000

@Boogiepanda - Raging Tide

meteoricone wrote: »

Yoda, I stated I have numerous logs of players doing >90% of their total damage with fbp or tbr. Your proceeding response is to tell me that it's 30 while I'm staring at numerous examples where you're way off. Nice contribution to the conversation. I honestly can't tell whether you're blatantly lying or just completely clueless. Sci spammers brag about only needing to use tbr and fbp in opvp routinely. It's a THE meme.

Energy weapons which begin at 5-10 depending on enemy shields. tbr and fbp shield pen BEGINS at 50% shield pen for 100% of the time they're up and increases from there to 65% and beyond with intel fleet etc and I haven't even begun to mention armor pen added to that being 25% from probability manipulation for 15 to 30 seconds another 15% from intel fleet and with crit chance BEGINNING at 50% with probability manipulation and increasing from there either due to "bugs" or an inadequate ability description and then crit severity at >200% after so many steps you have fbp1 doing 204k damage in a single strike with regularity and tbr doing half that in a split second. Effortless instakills form sci spammers.

CRYPTIC, YOU NEED MONEY RIGHT?
FIX PVP!

Ok..So I fly a sci ship..TBR ,DBR and FBP are my primary sources of damage.Aint got enough tac seats/Consoles to make Beams/Torps deadly...So Sci magic it is..

Energy Weapons...Pen ships start at 15% (just skill points) Add Subwarp Sheath + Enhanced Armor Pen= Pen mod and they cruise at 45%..Add Intel Fleet and boom 60% Armor Pen..Add BO doffs(35%), Self Mod fire (50%), Intense Focus (6%) Enhance Shield Pen (5%) Weapon System Synergy,and yea...Beam players can easily exceed a Sci ships main "straight to hull" arsenal with fewer ways to combat it..

@borticuscryptic stated counters to FBP
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline#/discussion/1211475/best-counter-to-feedback-pulse/p2

odinforever20000

meteoricone wrote: »

[4/30 8:58] [OrganizedPVP] Jacobs@odinforever20000: Counter offesive..I have no idea what counters that..

Its not an activatable ability like FBP.Which was the primary ability you had a problem with..
Counteroffensive is new...So the workaround for FBP wont work..cuz you;ll never know when it'll trigger. I know its not based on Epg and is not attached to the Aux system..But at least its capped at a maximum damage right?

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

bobs1111

There is only one fix for STO PvP and it has been the same required fix for 4 or so years now at least.

PvP needs to be removed from PvE. Period.

The game needs a complete PvP rethink... where ALL the PvE garbage... the reps the doffs the ship traits ect ect. Need to be turned off.

When Cryptic creates a GuildWars style PvP System in STO I will return... until then this game doesn't have PVP folks stop arguing about it.

orondis

Nothing is going to be done. Absolutely. Nothing.

Please don't fool yourselves about this. If nothing was done in the past, certainly nothing will be done now.

Cryptic is focused on what the majority of it's playerbase wants (as long as it doesn't cost too much money). The majority of it's playerbase doesn't want a nerf or a rebalance. The majority of the playerbase have trouble with probes and find fighting the Na'Kuhl a challenge.

Basically this game is the candy crush of MMO's... Except not as popular.

As PvPers we have three options:-
1) Put up and shut up. The latter probably won't happen, but the former we've been doing for 4+ years.
2) Leave PvP alone and go strictly PvE. Then die of boredom as cubes die from stray beam fire.
3) Move to another game. I suspect most of us would still log in a few minutes everyday to play a mission or so... Which is exactly what Cryptic wants.