... And a subscription-only model also monetizes everything, in a way.
It monetizes everything in a WORSE way. Under a subscription-only model, you could go months without a single bit of new material to play, and if you are caught up on playable content, that means you are paying for nothing.
As it is now, if we spend money to buy zen, it means there is something worth spending the zen on to us. But we don't have to spend a penny on Zen. we can earn the dilithium to spend on it. And let's face it... there is not a single thing on the C-store or the Dilithium store that we really NEED. There's plenty of stuff we may want, but the truth is that if we spend ANY money on anything in this game, it's because we WANT it. Not because we NEED it.
There are people who do just fine with ships and things they get just from the game itself. So the Pay To Win argument does not apply. But if you pay, then you can win in a ship that looks cooler than one you don't pay for.
I have two T6 ships for my characters. Both were free. Are they brilliant, no. That's because neither toon is science.
What do people want Cryptic to do?
P2W in STO is a myth and just doesn't exist. It's the equipment, skills etc that dictate the majority of a player's performance, NOT the ship. You can easily manage all the content bar Elite STF's with a lvl 40 ship! You can't buy equipment from the C-store other than native consoles or weapons, all that is available, easily in most cases, in game, and can be gain with resources earned ingame!
In basic terms P2W games usually require you to spend money to gain extremely hard to get, by F2P means, items etc, so you can go and rob players of resources or destroy their assets that they've spent countless months building up. There is none of that here. You can't be attacked without actually going into an Arena, you can't lose resources if another player beats you in Arenas and you can't lose any non-consumable assets either.
So I repeat, P2W in STO is a myth!
"You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
Yes but do explain exactly how and under what circumstance you received 2 free T6 ships.
He is probably referring to event ships. Given the mention of science, I'd guess the Breen Sar Theln carrier from winter 2014 and the Krenim Science Vessel from the 6th Anniversary.
Given your post count and join date, I'll also assume you are new. As such I should mention that you can't earn old event ships after their specific event. (It used to be possible, but not anymore) However each subsequent year offers a new ship. Overall, there are three such event ships a year: summer, winter, and Anniversary. As such, the next opportunity will be the summer Lohlunat festival which starts around June.
As Zephram Cochrane once said, "That'll do, pig. That'll do." - April 1st 2015.
Yes but do explain exactly how and under what circumstance you received 2 free T6 ships.
Given your post count and join date, I'll also assume you are new.
Never,
ever
do
that.
Anyway.
My questioning how was rhetorical. It was to illuminate the fact that him raving about his "two free T6 ships" was under peculiar and atypical circumstance; 99.9% of the time T6 is behind a paywall by design.
And please don't start with "you can convert dilithium to zen." Yes yes, we know.
I have two T6 ships for my characters. Both were free. Are they brilliant, no. That's because neither toon is science.
What do people want Cryptic to do?
For me, the potential P2W argument stems from the fact that, due to how the game was designed in the first place, C-store ships are very much gear rather than being cosmetic only.
Can you complete everything in a free ship? Yes. But purchasing a ship will always provide better performance compared to free ships (excluding event ships).
I think I'm going to just leave this for now though, honestly my single biggest problem is F2P itself. As long as anything is free without a sub, I won't truly be happy. I know that's not going to change, that's just how I feel.
I have no big issue with how they do f2p as i have seen worse and better versions of it done, and how they are doing it is not terrible overall. I will say I would not mind if they had something like purchasable mission packs that are not tied to the story missions that we get free, but something more like the filler episodes of other series that expand on side elements of a season. Such as the rest of the events in the delta quad, Kobali events, events between the cooperative an collective, exploration missions an such that could be nice to purchase for players that like that content or seeking such things.
Yes but do explain exactly how and under what circumstance you received 2 free T6 ships.
He is probably referring to event ships. Given the mention of science, I'd guess the Breen Sar Theln carrier from winter 2014 and the Krenim Science Vessel from the 6th Anniversary.
Given your post count and join date, I'll also assume you are new. As such I should mention that you can't earn old event ships after their specific event. (It used to be possible, but not anymore) However each subsequent year offers a new ship. Overall, there are three such event ships a year: summer, winter, and Anniversary. As such, the next opportunity will be the summer Lohlunat festival which starts around June.
Lol I've been playing since season 1 and my post count is low. Some people just don't use the forums as much as others. I just recently found out how much fun they are. I used to just visit and read.
Hey OP, although you mean well I think you overcomplicate our relationship with cryptic a bit.
It’s rather simple:
-> They deliver delicious chocolate pudding and we play and pay.
-> They deliver poo poo and we leave.
If they do the latter for some reason the most loyal of their customers will stick around for a while and voice their concern in the hope things change for the better. They will do so with passion and perhaps even aggravation only to underline their willingness to support this product before they give up too.
Now Cryptic is either smart enough stay in touch with us and make the best of it or they fail in light of the countless other producers in the entertainment industry that do. We loose just a game, they loose their job.
There, simple!
Now pull another Delta Rising Geko?
*JK* You seem to have learned and have begun to change the game for the better the past 6 months. Thanks, mybe I buy a ship later...
Post edited by peterconnorfirst on
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
I think the game has reached a well balanced equilibrium between free content and charged 'content'. Everything is free apart from ships and some other fluff - and even those are free if you farm dilithium for long enough.
That said, sometimes I think people play the game just so they have something to moan about.
Personally, I think we need to stop with all of this "Cryptic wants to make money so they must hate us" garbage.
beyond this the rest is just window dressing, this is your point right here.
a lot of their money is made through this ingame stuff, thats why they bring a lot of it through a gamble box, the z-store and other things, they need to make it look good for players to want and buy it. a business alone can not survive on good will, they need to make money, bottom line and metrics help their cause just as much.
as for your opinion that "you think" they hate us? i cant answer to this as i do not pretend to speak on cryptics behalf, but what i can answer to is that players are customers to this service and none of us have any right to question what cryptic does unless the entire community is against one of their decisions, otherwise yes, they got to make money regardless what any player would want.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
as for your opinion that "you think" they hate us? i cant answer to this as i do not pretend to speak on cryptics behalf, but what i can answer to is that players are customers to this service and none of us have any right to question what cryptic does unless the entire community is against one of their decisions,
I would say customers always retain their full right to question anything. Cryptic has a similar right to summarily dismiss anything we question, though. Ideally, though, a gaming company is generally smart enough to realize that going completely against their player base probably isn't a very good move. (That happened to CCP once, btw, with their EvE Online Incarna debacle, where they were brazingly said that if the ppl wouldn't put up with it, they had 'demographics showing them others would.' Tl;dr: that didn't end well for CCP).
Other than possible spending cash on the Upgrade system, I think Cryptic hardly requires you to spend money on anything else to be competitive, once you got a few good ships. And if you limit yourself to UR (and not go epic ape-sh*t, like yours truly, trying to get everything Epic, LOL), the cost of playing STO is overall rather low, actually.
as for your opinion that "you think" they hate us? i cant answer to this as i do not pretend to speak on cryptics behalf, but what i can answer to is that players are customers to this service and none of us have any right to question what cryptic does unless the entire community is against one of their decisions,
I would say customers always retain their full right to question anything. Cryptic has a similar right to summarily dismiss anything we question, though. Ideally, though, a gaming company is generally smart enough to realize that going completely against their player base probably isn't a very good move. (That happened to CCP once, btw, with their EvE Online Incarna debacle, where they were brazingly said that if the ppl wouldn't put up with it, they had 'demographics showing them others would.' Tl;dr: that didn't end well for CCP).
Other than possible spending cash on the Upgrade system, I think Cryptic hardly requires you to spend money on anything else to be competitive, once you got a few good ships. And if you limit yourself to UR (and not go epic ape-sh*t, like yours truly, trying to get everything Epic, LOL), the cost of playing STO is overall rather low, actually.
you misunderstand, if you walked into a large business building and started shouting and moving stuff around saying you know whats best, you would be told to leave, if you insisted, the police would arrive and you would be booted out of the building.
the point is, that you are a guest, none of us have any rights to throw it in their faces. we follow the tos, coc and such, we agreed to that, meaning you me and every other customer agreed to what cryptic and pwe have laid out and we must follow it.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Lol I've been playing since season 1 and my post count is low. Some people just don't use the forums as much as others. I just recently found out how much fun they are. I used to just visit and read.
Well, his join date is still only a few days ago and he asked a very classic "newish player" question. And if you don't preface such basic kinds of advice with a reason why you are giving it, most people tend to find that condecending. Further, most vets whose join date is messed up or had to make a replacement account tend to mention that in their sig to keep things clear... an excellent example being either that of mirrorchaos who posted above me or even you yourself. Still, the chances that a vet, who had not been away for long so as to be essentially "new" again, would ask "How and under what circustances did you obtain a T6 ship for free" were pretty low and, so sue me, I think helping people out in the cold jungle that is the internet is a good thing. Not to mention, if the question actually was rhetorical as he later claimed he must have forgotten how badly such things translate onto a non verbal forum... especially if you fail to use punctuation and/or emoticons that indicate an attempt at "humor" or "sarcasm." (You know like a !, or a ..., or perhaps a ) Either way, its not my fault that he overreacted to friendly advice... most players appreciate the thought and move on if it dosen't apply. In the end, and regardless of his actual experience in game, he won't last long here with a standoffish attitude. But that's his perogative, just as it is mine to keep offering help and advice in a courteous manner.
Post edited by zarato4218 on
As Zephram Cochrane once said, "That'll do, pig. That'll do." - April 1st 2015.
I think it was a rhetorical question posed to make a point... But event ships are free, as in beer, no ifs, buts or maybes. Anyone can get them as long as they show up regularly in the game. Even opportunity cost reasoning, which may make things like rep gear look monetized, doesn't really work with event stuff. Events are pure marketing: PWE hopes that if people login more, they'll spend more, especially at times like Christmas, but they don't oblige you to spend anything.
Lol I've been playing since season 1 and my post count is low. Some people just don't use the forums as much as others. I just recently found out how much fun they are. I used to just visit and read.
Well, his join date is still only a few days ago and he asked a very classic "newish player" question.
Did you not read my reply? My question was RHETORICAL. You need to drop the superiority complex my friend. Like now.
I think it was a rhetorical question posed to make a point...
You're EXACTLY right, it was, and I stated as much when I replied to Zarato's "you must be new" remark. Of course, he's going on as if he's oblivious to it. But thank you for noticing it.
I remember, Bort I think it was, saying that they didn't have anyway, other than the respec, to monetize the skill system. This leads me to believe that they will ALWAYS monetize the skill system.
Of course they could monetize the skill system in other ways, if they really wanted to. They could sell unlocks for premium skills, for example. Beyond that, they can monetize the character system even more by unlocking new races and premium traits. Pretty much every active DOFF ability could be translated into a skill or trait. They could make people pay to unlock higher level caps.
Should they do any of that? Perhaps not, though they have done and are doing some of it. But they're not necessarily limited to respecs and I'm not sure it's really necessary to monetize the skill system when they have so many other means available to them.
I'm just not sure that paid respecs aren't the lesser of many other evils. They should reduce the cost of them, and I hope they decide to do that. I might actually stoop to buying one if they did. But the reality is that unless you're going for a highly specialized character or extreme min/max, and you're conservative enough to spread skill points around to cover as many bases as possible, the new skill system will punish you less for bad choices than the old one did. Therefore, a pile of respec tokens shouldn't really be needed for most people. In my opinion.
Did you not read my reply? My question was RHETORICAL. You need to drop the superiority complex my friend. Like now.
Of course I read your post, there was just no reason to reply, whereas there was to darakoss. I was simply pointing out to him, and I suppose indirectly you, how the facts could easily add up to my conclusion. However I also did include possabilities as to why I could have been wrong... so nice job cherry picking your quote. And as to your "rhetorical" question it looks like @stobg2015, a former moderator, also missed your point; so I would not be so sure it was as obvious as you thought.
And finally, defending one's position while also admitting to its flaws might not be your average "forumite" response to conflict, but it's also hardly a superiority complex. A superiority complex would be ignoring others questions and/or telling them they should find out for themselves. because you (I) already learned them the hard way. So in the end I guess all I can say is I'm honestly sorry for trying to help a fellow player but inadvertently offending them instead. That was never my intent.
Post edited by zarato4218 on
As Zephram Cochrane once said, "That'll do, pig. That'll do." - April 1st 2015.
I have two T6 ships for my characters. Both were free. Are they brilliant, no. That's because neither toon is science.
What do people want Cryptic to do?
Yes but do explain exactly how and under what circumstance you received 2 free T6 ships.
I got the T6 Kremin Science vessels from the 6th Anniversary Event. I knew those years playing Frogger would come in handy.
Even then, I scored 1000 points and got the ship for both of my characters, oh Cryptic how nasty can you be to me?
This weekend they are giving away stuff for free, no puzzles, just go to the C Store and claim.
My only complaint is that some of the stuff is just way too expensive, that's why I bought my only pay ship during the sales. However, there are people who are willing to pay $60 for the ship bundles. Good luck to them.
Ground combat is absolutely the best combat, by a ridiculously obvious margin.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
One thing that might help is an option to revert to the previous build for free within the first 24 hours.
Bort already ruled that out for now. They'd still need the PowerCart tech to keep track of it. Without that, there's no mechanism for reverting a respec.
Barring that, the best solution seems to be allowing respecs with a cooldown timer for Dilithium, with a non-cooldown version for Zen, with the Zen-purchased tokens being sellable on the EC exchange.
Theoretically possible, I suppose. The Devs would have to weigh in on how feasible something like that would be. But I wouldn't expect them to make any changes of the kind in the short term. I'd guess even getting on the proposed feature list would take months, much less getting on the release schedule.
Removing or reducing the cost should be reasonably simple, if they decided to do that, with far less programming effort needed on their part. All they'd have to do is reduce the cost of tokens to as low as zero.
I'm in agreement with many people that no-cost respecs are ultimately better for the game. I do believe that expecting Gold subscribers to blow an entire month of stipend on a single respec is too far. (This is from someone who is not a Gold subscriber anymore, by the way.) Half a stipend would be more reasonable.
But I have no vested interest in it as I am already sitting on unused veteran respecs and don't see the need to fiddle with skills constantly. And I have no confidence that Cryptic's decision makers will ever see things in that light, anyway. We're more likely to get the PowerCart.
Comments
Yes but do explain exactly how and under what circumstance you received 2 free T6 ships.
Hit the nail on the head!
P2W in STO is a myth and just doesn't exist. It's the equipment, skills etc that dictate the majority of a player's performance, NOT the ship. You can easily manage all the content bar Elite STF's with a lvl 40 ship! You can't buy equipment from the C-store other than native consoles or weapons, all that is available, easily in most cases, in game, and can be gain with resources earned ingame!
In basic terms P2W games usually require you to spend money to gain extremely hard to get, by F2P means, items etc, so you can go and rob players of resources or destroy their assets that they've spent countless months building up. There is none of that here. You can't be attacked without actually going into an Arena, you can't lose resources if another player beats you in Arenas and you can't lose any non-consumable assets either.
So I repeat, P2W in STO is a myth!
He is probably referring to event ships. Given the mention of science, I'd guess the Breen Sar Theln carrier from winter 2014 and the Krenim Science Vessel from the 6th Anniversary.
Given your post count and join date, I'll also assume you are new. As such I should mention that you can't earn old event ships after their specific event. (It used to be possible, but not anymore) However each subsequent year offers a new ship. Overall, there are three such event ships a year: summer, winter, and Anniversary. As such, the next opportunity will be the summer Lohlunat festival which starts around June.
Never,
ever
do
that.
Anyway.
My questioning how was rhetorical. It was to illuminate the fact that him raving about his "two free T6 ships" was under peculiar and atypical circumstance; 99.9% of the time T6 is behind a paywall by design.
And please don't start with "you can convert dilithium to zen." Yes yes, we know.
For me, the potential P2W argument stems from the fact that, due to how the game was designed in the first place, C-store ships are very much gear rather than being cosmetic only.
Can you complete everything in a free ship? Yes. But purchasing a ship will always provide better performance compared to free ships (excluding event ships).
I think I'm going to just leave this for now though, honestly my single biggest problem is F2P itself. As long as anything is free without a sub, I won't truly be happy. I know that's not going to change, that's just how I feel.
Lol I've been playing since season 1 and my post count is low. Some people just don't use the forums as much as others. I just recently found out how much fun they are. I used to just visit and read.
original join date 2010
Member: Team Trekyards. Visit Trekyards today!
It’s rather simple:
-> They deliver delicious chocolate pudding and we play and pay.
-> They deliver poo poo and we leave.
If they do the latter for some reason the most loyal of their customers will stick around for a while and voice their concern in the hope things change for the better. They will do so with passion and perhaps even aggravation only to underline their willingness to support this product before they give up too.
Now Cryptic is either smart enough stay in touch with us and make the best of it or they fail in light of the countless other producers in the entertainment industry that do. We loose just a game, they loose their job.
There, simple!
Now pull another Delta Rising Geko?
*JK* You seem to have learned and have begun to change the game for the better the past 6 months. Thanks, mybe I buy a ship later...
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
That said, sometimes I think people play the game just so they have something to moan about.
beyond this the rest is just window dressing, this is your point right here.
a lot of their money is made through this ingame stuff, thats why they bring a lot of it through a gamble box, the z-store and other things, they need to make it look good for players to want and buy it. a business alone can not survive on good will, they need to make money, bottom line and metrics help their cause just as much.
as for your opinion that "you think" they hate us? i cant answer to this as i do not pretend to speak on cryptics behalf, but what i can answer to is that players are customers to this service and none of us have any right to question what cryptic does unless the entire community is against one of their decisions, otherwise yes, they got to make money regardless what any player would want.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
I would say customers always retain their full right to question anything. Cryptic has a similar right to summarily dismiss anything we question, though.
Other than possible spending cash on the Upgrade system, I think Cryptic hardly requires you to spend money on anything else to be competitive, once you got a few good ships. And if you limit yourself to UR (and not go epic ape-sh*t, like yours truly, trying to get everything Epic, LOL), the cost of playing STO is overall rather low, actually.
you misunderstand, if you walked into a large business building and started shouting and moving stuff around saying you know whats best, you would be told to leave, if you insisted, the police would arrive and you would be booted out of the building.
the point is, that you are a guest, none of us have any rights to throw it in their faces. we follow the tos, coc and such, we agreed to that, meaning you me and every other customer agreed to what cryptic and pwe have laid out and we must follow it.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Well, his join date is still only a few days ago and he asked a very classic "newish player" question. And if you don't preface such basic kinds of advice with a reason why you are giving it, most people tend to find that condecending. Further, most vets whose join date is messed up or had to make a replacement account tend to mention that in their sig to keep things clear... an excellent example being either that of mirrorchaos who posted above me or even you yourself. Still, the chances that a vet, who had not been away for long so as to be essentially "new" again, would ask "How and under what circustances did you obtain a T6 ship for free" were pretty low and, so sue me, I think helping people out in the cold jungle that is the internet is a good thing. Not to mention, if the question actually was rhetorical as he later claimed he must have forgotten how badly such things translate onto a non verbal forum... especially if you fail to use punctuation and/or emoticons that indicate an attempt at "humor" or "sarcasm." (You know like a !, or a ..., or perhaps a
Did you not read my reply? My question was RHETORICAL. You need to drop the superiority complex my friend. Like now.
You're EXACTLY right, it was, and I stated as much when I replied to Zarato's "you must be new" remark. Of course, he's going on as if he's oblivious to it. But thank you for noticing it.
You PURCHASED the privilege to 500 Zen a month.
Of course they could monetize the skill system in other ways, if they really wanted to. They could sell unlocks for premium skills, for example. Beyond that, they can monetize the character system even more by unlocking new races and premium traits. Pretty much every active DOFF ability could be translated into a skill or trait. They could make people pay to unlock higher level caps.
Should they do any of that? Perhaps not, though they have done and are doing some of it. But they're not necessarily limited to respecs and I'm not sure it's really necessary to monetize the skill system when they have so many other means available to them.
I'm just not sure that paid respecs aren't the lesser of many other evils. They should reduce the cost of them, and I hope they decide to do that. I might actually stoop to buying one if they did. But the reality is that unless you're going for a highly specialized character or extreme min/max, and you're conservative enough to spread skill points around to cover as many bases as possible, the new skill system will punish you less for bad choices than the old one did. Therefore, a pile of respec tokens shouldn't really be needed for most people. In my opinion.
Let me count the ways...
Breen Carrier (T6) - Winter Event
Breen Dreadnought (T6) - Winter Event
Ferengi Nandi (T6) - Summer Event
Krenim Science (T6) - Anniversary Event
Did I miss any?
Of course I read your post, there was just no reason to reply, whereas there was to darakoss. I was simply pointing out to him, and I suppose indirectly you, how the facts could easily add up to my conclusion. However I also did include possabilities as to why I could have been wrong... so nice job cherry picking your quote.
And finally, defending one's position while also admitting to its flaws might not be your average "forumite" response to conflict, but it's also hardly a superiority complex. A superiority complex would be ignoring others questions and/or telling them they should find out for themselves. because you (I) already learned them the hard way. So in the end I guess all I can say is I'm honestly sorry for trying to help a fellow player but inadvertently offending them instead. That was never my intent.
"I'm honestly sorry for trying to help a fellow player [...]."
Gag me with a spoon.
I got the T6 Kremin Science vessels from the 6th Anniversary Event. I knew those years playing Frogger would come in handy.
Even then, I scored 1000 points and got the ship for both of my characters, oh Cryptic how nasty can you be to me?
This weekend they are giving away stuff for free, no puzzles, just go to the C Store and claim.
My only complaint is that some of the stuff is just way too expensive, that's why I bought my only pay ship during the sales. However, there are people who are willing to pay $60 for the ship bundles. Good luck to them.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
Bort already ruled that out for now. They'd still need the PowerCart tech to keep track of it. Without that, there's no mechanism for reverting a respec.
Theoretically possible, I suppose. The Devs would have to weigh in on how feasible something like that would be. But I wouldn't expect them to make any changes of the kind in the short term. I'd guess even getting on the proposed feature list would take months, much less getting on the release schedule.
Removing or reducing the cost should be reasonably simple, if they decided to do that, with far less programming effort needed on their part. All they'd have to do is reduce the cost of tokens to as low as zero.
I'm in agreement with many people that no-cost respecs are ultimately better for the game. I do believe that expecting Gold subscribers to blow an entire month of stipend on a single respec is too far. (This is from someone who is not a Gold subscriber anymore, by the way.) Half a stipend would be more reasonable.
But I have no vested interest in it as I am already sitting on unused veteran respecs and don't see the need to fiddle with skills constantly. And I have no confidence that Cryptic's decision makers will ever see things in that light, anyway. We're more likely to get the PowerCart.
What are they doing that is TRIBBLE us?
If I don't want to pay, I don't have to.