Proposal: New Weapon Class

brian334

Power Creep Theory says we'll have T7 ships one day, and that such ships will have more weapons, more power, and more hull strength, along with more device slots and hangar bays. They will render T6 ships obsolete the moment they hit the C-store shelves. But will they in any way be innovative?

I'd like to suggest that along with new ships we get a new class of weapon: the Point Defense weapon. These would be 360 degree weapons of short range and relatively low power, but with a high rate of fire, which auto-target spam such as destructible projectiles, mines, and small craft. The player would simply slot them and forget them. They could be enhanced by appropriate BOff powers, but otherwise fire only when spam enters their range, which I would say should be between 3 to 5 km.

Point Defense Beam Banks: Low power requirement, moderate damage potential, high rate of fire.
Point Defense Turrets: Low power requirement, low damage potential, extremely high rate of fire.
Point Defense Torpedo: No power requirement, high damage potential, moderate rate of fire. (Proximity fused types lower damage potential with a 1-2km AoE.)

These weapons could be slotted on lower tier ships, but they would have a special home on T7 cruisers, carriers, and dreadnaughts. I'd propose a centerline mounted slot be incorporated into T7 ships, with one Point Defense slot for cruisers and two for carriers and dreadnaughts. This would allow for a modest improvement in firepower without totally out-classing T5U and T6 ships. It would also allow an anticipated increase in carrier spam with the advancement of the next tier to be countered by ships of their tier.

Along with this could come a new Tactical Officer trait: Point Defense Specialist. Slotting a tactical BOff with this trait would improve the accuracy and/or rate of fire of Point Defense weaponry.

As a point of consideration, perhaps BFAW, CSV, and TS could enable these weapons to fire upon multiple spam objects within their range simultaneously when these BOff powers are active. BO, CRF, and T:HY could increase damage, rate of fire, and area of effect as appropriate.

jexsamx

What would you suggest be done to ensure this proposed weapon type wouldn't render pets and spam completely obsolete? Do you feel sacrificing a weapon slot is a sufficient cost?

snoggymack22

Isn't that already a tactical console that came with the pre-order?

brian334

I am assuming there will be additional hangar bays with the upgrade to T7, along with extra weapons slots and device slots which allow more mine, destructible torpedo, and turret deployment, thus giving lower tier ships a much harder time dealing with the new ships. So, the concept isn't about eliminating all spam on the battlefield, but in reducing the extra spam I anticipate will result.

Currently my Hegh'ta has a hard time dealing with spam because I foolishly went with a DHC build. If I individually target spam not only do my aft turrets not make much of a dent, but my forward cannons sit idle during that time. If I let the spam impact, my hull withers like a tissue paper umbrella in a hurricane. This lead me to desire an auto-targeting point defense weapon. It is a niche weapon concept, and many players will opt not to use them unless PD weapon only slots such as I suggested for cruisers, carriers, and dreadnaughts allowed them to be slotted without losing anything else. But I'd trade in my Kinetic Cutting Beam for a PD turret in a heartbeat.

I just had an idea though, that mines, an underused weapon type among the playerbase at large, might also slot in the PD weapon slots since they are not actively targeted by the player. This would increase the potential spam, thus making PD weapons that much more valuable.

tousseau

I generall go with a hybrid builld on my cannon boats... DBA and an Omni with BFAW for the chaff running about

brian334

tousseau wrote: »

I generall go with a hybrid builld on my cannon boats... DBA and an Omni with BFAW for the chaff running about

Many builds are possible. I'm not really looking for a way I can make my boat better at clearing spam; I am optimized for cannons. My idea is to present a new concept that could be used on the next tier of ship, with the possibility that the idea can also be used by ships of lower tier.

nikeix

There are least two auto-turrets in game now.

One is a preorder tactical console that rocks on toast while leveling. You don't really have to shed it until you're ready to start loading you endgame tactical damage consoles.

The other is a combination plasmatic-biomatter turret with an auto-turret functionality tacked on available in the Lobi store. It's amazing good fun on my Narcine but for 200 lobi it's not a bad thing on almost any ship if you're not chasing the uber-dps. It pairs best with plasma-cannon builds.

mirrorchaos

brian334 wrote: »

Power Creep Theory says we'll have T7 ships one day, and that such ships will have more weapons, more power, and more hull strength, along with more device slots and hangar bays. They will render T6 ships obsolete the moment they hit the C-store shelves. But will they in any way be innovative?

I'd like to suggest that along with new ships we get a new class of weapon: the Point Defense weapon. These would be 360 degree weapons of short range and relatively low power, but with a high rate of fire, which auto-target spam such as destructible projectiles, mines, and small craft. The player would simply slot them and forget them. They could be enhanced by appropriate BOff powers, but otherwise fire only when spam enters their range, which I would say should be between 3 to 5 km.

Point Defense Beam Banks: Low power requirement, moderate damage potential, high rate of fire.
Point Defense Turrets: Low power requirement, low damage potential, extremely high rate of fire.
Point Defense Torpedo: No power requirement, high damage potential, moderate rate of fire. (Proximity fused types lower damage potential with a 1-2km AoE.)

These weapons could be slotted on lower tier ships, but they would have a special home on T7 cruisers, carriers, and dreadnaughts. I'd propose a centerline mounted slot be incorporated into T7 ships, with one Point Defense slot for cruisers and two for carriers and dreadnaughts. This would allow for a modest improvement in firepower without totally out-classing T5U and T6 ships. It would also allow an anticipated increase in carrier spam with the advancement of the next tier to be countered by ships of their tier.

Along with this could come a new Tactical Officer trait: Point Defense Specialist. Slotting a tactical BOff with this trait would improve the accuracy and/or rate of fire of Point Defense weaponry.

As a point of consideration, perhaps BFAW, CSV, and TS could enable these weapons to fire upon multiple spam objects within their range simultaneously when these BOff powers are active. BO, CRF, and T:HY could increase damage, rate of fire, and area of effect as appropriate.

fail to see the point in the idea, 8 banks of beam arrays, bfaw, eptw, tt, dem is enough to not only be a primary point defense system, but it also doubles up as a destructive offensive choice.

banatine

Yeah, it's an OK idea, but i would say it isn't what the game needs... Especially if they ever want to make Carriers a truly viable ship choice.

Now, if they WERE going to add a new wepon type, i think we need Heavy Beam banks. After all, we have Heavy cannons... why not heavy beams?

mirrorchaos

artillery weapons, a typical artillery round is a sort of torpedo, but it isnt, more like an energy projectile,no physical object used, however the launcher slotted could have different types of particles used (plasma, tachyon, disruptor, nadion, polaron...). it can be fired as far out as 20k range, built in to it is a lack of accuracy, in order to make each shot count, accuracy is important, so using that new skill tree in combination with finding modifers that produce [acc] and also using accuracy outside of pvp for once, it could bring in a whole new choice for players to use. also the closer tothe targetyou are the more your accuracy increases as well.

however the downside is that if there were ships designed around it, then the ship can only have 5 weapons slots, 4 up front and 1 behind, 1 has a fused self defense beam turret on the rear and its hull is not much different from an escort and it can only mount artillery weapons up front, no beams, turrets, cannons or torpedoes. an added attraction so players need to move is to keep the ship class on the same hp range as an escort but slower turning. that way it has to move to keep itself at artillery range and out of the fighting.

however artillery works better the closer you are to the target, at 20k you get standard damage and with 4 launchers the rate of fire is lower because of the power consumption. at 10k the damage has increased 100% but with greater risk of being destroyed. artillery weapons also inherently produce threat. again it would get people to use the new skill system, and others to buy into threat management to keep sustained threat targeting on another player instead of the artillery user.

it could add lots of new tactical, engineering and science options as well as those in spec trees.

only 1 ship that already exists can mount artillery weapons, but it would be a hybrid, only allowed to mount 2 artillery weapons up front, the steam runner. it wont be able to take advantage of the full artillery weapons, but it could offer up a potentially different option for cross torpedo artillery boats, its main weakness is that it has to be within 10k to use all weapons though and it gets half the damage it would if it were firing 4 artillery weapons, however the artillery rate of fire increases due to having two instead of 2 artillery weapons, so it somewhat makes up a little for the loss of the other 2 launchers and combine it with torpedoes anyway and you got roughly the same damage potential anyway.

nikeix

Keep in mind we also have a ton of other weapon classes tucked away as consoles - lances, lotus, several types of missiles, Vaudwaar artillery, the big cone crescent weapon the Elachi use, the Xindi arsenal, half a dozen different Tholian web weapons...

risian4

There's already multiple options to deal with 'spam'. Gravity wells, FAW, TBR. Do we really need more options to make it even easier to deal with the few abilities NPC's use?

It's one of the few things that make Heralds, for example, interesting enemies. If anything, they should increase the durability of these 'spam' abilities so they'd become more challenging. More options like slotting an auto-weapon to easily shoot this stuff down and have to care even less about enemy abilities is the last thing we need.

brian334

risian4 wrote: »

There's already multiple options to deal with 'spam'. Gravity wells, FAW, TBR. Do we really need more options to make it even easier to deal with the few abilities NPC's use?

It's one of the few things that make Heralds, for example, interesting enemies. If anything, they should increase the durability of these 'spam' abilities so they'd become more challenging. More options like slotting an auto-weapon to easily shoot this stuff down and have to care even less about enemy abilities is the last thing we need.

I don't disagree with this so much as I'd like to point out that my proposal is not a 1 shot, 1 kill weapon. PD weapons would require many shots to deal with an average carrier pet. Each PD Weapon type would have advantages and disadvantages: beams would offer moderate damage and RoF, torps would generate high damage at a low RoF, while turrets would perform low damage with a high RoF, relative to one another; however, none of them would approach the DPS of the current turrets or 360 degree beam arrays.

In this case, a single PD Torp might eliminate a cluster of mines attempting to intercept the ship, but would require several volleys to take down a fighter. A turret would spray-and-pray at the cluster of mines and possibly get one or two before the rest impact the ship while its sustained fire on a fighter would wither it down over time.

It's not an "I win button" proposal here, but something that almost every real world warship carries as standard equipment. They don't always work in real life either.

davehilander

What about the point defense console that we already have? No weapon slot required. In the Heavy Escort refit you can do a torpedo point defense as well. We also have the Trait: Point Defense Protocols if you don't want to get the console. You can additionally get the counter command space weapon set which gives Heavy Bio-Molecular Turret Barrage. Any one of these gets rid of spam quite easily in a cannon ship.

brian334

It currently costs me 300,000 dil to get that console, and it only comes on a ship my Klingon character can't buy. As for Lobi Store items, I have twelve crystals. Not as in one character has 12 Lobi Crystals, but all of my characters together have a total of 12.

Aside from those facts, the items I propose would be about 1/10th as powerful and useable by any faction.

The Bio-Molecular Turret Barrage requires I build my ship around the Bio-Molecular weapons system, and it has a three minute cooldown, during which time it does nothing at all. I currently use Cannon Scatter Volley as spam control, and to some degree it works.

The Point Defense Protocols trait requires that I gamble on DOff Packs; however, my DOff roster is full, so repeatedly buying DOffs for the chance that I get something good is, for me, a waste of resources I cannot afford to spend.

Once again, I am not requesting advice on how to build my ship. I am happy with the tradeoffs I have made to achieve the results I want. What I am proposing is a new item, not gated by the C-store or the Lobi store, which is also not tied to any particular faction or ship or build type. I anticipate that with power creep there will come a time when a ship spends quite a lot of time attempting to target spam as opposed to actually taking out the enemy ships, and the modest proposal I offered is intended to be a useful, but not overpowered, method of dealing with the issue.

dareau

brian334 wrote: »

It currently costs me 300,000 dil to get that console, and it only comes on a ship my Klingon character can't buy. As for Lobi Store items, I have twelve crystals. Not as in one character has 12 Lobi Crystals, but all of my characters together have a total of 12.

Aside from those facts, the items I propose would be about 1/10th as powerful and useable by any faction.

The Bio-Molecular Turret Barrage requires I build my ship around the Bio-Molecular weapons system, and it has a three minute cooldown, during which time it does nothing at all. I currently use Cannon Scatter Volley as spam control, and to some degree it works.

Once again, I am not requesting advice on how to build my ship. I am happy with the tradeoffs I have made to achieve the results I want. What I am proposing is a new item, not gated by the C-store or the Lobi store, which is also not tied to any particular faction or ship or build type. I anticipate that with power creep there will come a time when a ship spends quite a lot of time attempting to target spam as opposed to actually taking out the enemy ships, and the modest proposal I offered is intended to be a useful, but not overpowered, method of dealing with the issue.

Looking at power creep practice, none of the T6 stuff spits out more spam than it's T5 variant does. Therefore, it's safe to place like 50/50 odds that T7 won't spam markedly higher than a T6 (hence T5) would.

Also, the Point Defense Console was lockboxed many boxes ago, and is currently a touch over 4 mil per on the exchange, as the Klingon option of the "subspace jumper / point defense console" box...

daveyny

Lobi can be traded between same account toons.
So that 12 you have can be used on any of your characters.

mirrorchaos

technically, using phasers are a defense weapon that is used to destroy objects and ships threatening it, so in writing that bfaw spam is a point defense weapon, not just from large destructive torps, but ships, shuttles and fighters.

talonxv

Guys are forgetting the turret on the fed tie 3 escort.

stobg2015

Since Cryptic is far from done converting over older ships to T6, talk of a T7 (while inevitable, I suppose) is premature.

Even if they did, I can't see point-defense weapons being the hallmark of a T7 ship.

Star Trek already has a built-in rationale for the next generation of power creep. We only need look at future ships like the Wells, the Pastak, and Kal Dano's ship. Imagine a small ship with the maneuverability of an escort, the shields of a heavy cruiser, and the firepower of a dreadnought. That's not even accounting for the temporal capabilities of a timeship.

The Devs don't need to take us straight to tiny superships, but they can start edging in that direction. Faster, better turn rates, higher shield modifiers, moar power, extra weapon slots.

Then the T8's can have subspace fold technology, giving us unlimited power, unlimited consoles, and anything else we shouldn't be able to pack in otherwise.

davehilander

So the idea is a dedicated weapon slot as a PD and tac skills to effect it. Sounds like the free 360 AP beam and FAW1 would do the same. You don't needed to match energy type if you are just clearing spam.

warmaker001b

There is absolutely zero need for the broadening of Point Defense weaponry in both PVP and PVE.

1. BFAW, CSV already performs the PD need, if barely existed, especially BFAW with the wonderful firing arcs of BA's and even DBB's.

2. In PVE-Land, only a very, VERY, VERY few NPCs use destructible projectiles. NPCs using Fighters, Shuttles, are rare. Whatever of these threats that actually present themselves, Point 1 above renders them moot.

3. In PVP, no sane PVPer relies on destructible spam. Destructible Mines, Torpedoes have no role in PVP with the sheer abundance of AOE abilities. I'm not talking about BFAW, CSV alone, I'm talking about the Gravity Wells, Tyken's Rifts, TBRs, and other AOE abilities in this game. Then, you also have to contend with things like GW/TR Aftershocks. PVP is not nice for relying on destructible projectiles.

risian4

stobg2015 wrote: »

Since Cryptic is far from done converting over older ships to T6, talk of a T7 (while inevitable, I suppose) is premature.

Even if they did, I can't see point-defense weapons being the hallmark of a T7 ship.

Star Trek already has a built-in rationale for the next generation of power creep. We only need look at future ships like the Wells, the Pastak, and Kal Dano's ship. Imagine a small ship with the maneuverability of an escort, the shields of a heavy cruiser, and the firepower of a dreadnought. That's not even accounting for the temporal capabilities of a timeship.

The Devs don't need to take us straight to tiny superships, but they can start edging in that direction. Faster, better turn rates, higher shield modifiers, moar power, extra weapon slots.

Then the T8's can have subspace fold technology, giving us unlimited power, unlimited consoles, and anything else we shouldn't be able to pack in otherwise.

The Paradox also basically does this already. It has everything all science ships have, but also an extra forward weapon slot.

warmaker001b

risian4 wrote: »

stobg2015 wrote: »

Since Cryptic is far from done converting over older ships to T6, talk of a T7 (while inevitable, I suppose) is premature.

Even if they did, I can't see point-defense weapons being the hallmark of a T7 ship.

Star Trek already has a built-in rationale for the next generation of power creep. We only need look at future ships like the Wells, the Pastak, and Kal Dano's ship. Imagine a small ship with the maneuverability of an escort, the shields of a heavy cruiser, and the firepower of a dreadnought. That's not even accounting for the temporal capabilities of a timeship.

The Devs don't need to take us straight to tiny superships, but they can start edging in that direction. Faster, better turn rates, higher shield modifiers, moar power, extra weapon slots.

Then the T8's can have subspace fold technology, giving us unlimited power, unlimited consoles, and anything else we shouldn't be able to pack in otherwise.

The Paradox also basically does this already. It has everything all science ships have, but also an extra forward weapon slot.

LOL, you just reminded me of people complaining ingame how much the Paradox sucks. We had such a great laugh out of that

zarato4218

risian4 wrote: »

The Paradox also basically does this already. It has everything all science ships have, but also an extra forward weapon slot.

Don't forget the hanger bay too.

warmaker001b wrote: »

LOL, you just reminded me of people complaining ingame how much the Paradox sucks. We had such a great laugh out of that

I've seen people make those remarks too... not sure they really understand how to handle a sci ship. I mean, perhaps its just me, but I've found the Paradox to be one of the most fun ships to fly in a long time. (Definitley more fun than a beam boat which, while very effective, is just a snooze anymore.) It's exotic damage potential is excellent and the carnage of a combo of Grav Well III, Subspace Vortex III, Destabalizing Resonance Beam II, and Torp Spread used on a group of enemies is simply a thing of beauty.

risian4

It could be fun... having a ship the size of a shuttle (on the outside, bigger on the inside of course ) with two warp cores, +100 power in everything, extra efficiency, zero weapon power costs, secondary shielding and armor (innate of course, no need to use consoles), built-in scattering field that can be active all the time, new materials that are largely self-repairing resulting in almost immediate hull repair whenever taking damage, 10 ENG, SCI and TAC console slots for a total of 35 - including 5 universal slots -, built-in battle cloak, sensor analysis and lance abilities with recharge times below 30 seconds...

For Boff slots: you get 5 commander Boff slots, and also two captain slots. You can select two of your own characters and put them in those Captain slots, which will allow you to use their respective career's captain abilities. Special captain ability (much the same like Worf's and Tuvok's abilities) : Temporal Celebrity - enemies surrender the moment they are faced with your awesomeness.

Special console: Attack Pattern Alpha of your Omega: removes targets that damage your hull while below 90% maximum capacity from the timestream. They're gone forever, they won't return in the next instance of, say, ISA.

Starship trait would be something that creates past, future and alternate universe duplicates of your own ship + past and future versions of those alternate universe duplicates, every 20 seconds. All equipped with AP [Pen] [CritD]*4 beam arrays which fire FAW 4, which has a maximum range of 90 km and 100% uptime.
Effect lasts forever, until the server crashes or until the players faint because of all the players' spam. Which was supposed to be an answer to NPC's 'spam'.

Edit: forgot the Hangar Pets. This ship launches up to 12 Q's at once, from its single hangar bay.

risian4

zarato4218 wrote: »

risian4 wrote: »

The Paradox also basically does this already. It has everything all science ships have, but also an extra forward weapon slot.

Don't forget the hanger bay too.

warmaker001b wrote: »

LOL, you just reminded me of people complaining ingame how much the Paradox sucks. We had such a great laugh out of that

I've seen people make those remarks too... not sure they really understand how to handle a sci ship. I mean, perhaps its just me, but I've found the Paradox to be one of the most fun ships to fly in a long time. (Definitley more fun than a beam boat which, while very effective, is just a snooze anymore.) It's exotic damage potential is excellent and the carnage of a combo of Grav Well III, Subspace Vortex III, Destabalizing Resonance Beam II, and Torp Spread used on a group of enemies is simply a thing of beauty.

Ah yes, the Hangar Bay. Forgot it's an extra for science ships. I'm too much used to the Vesta I guess

It's an amazing ship. The only reason I'm back in my Vesta is cause it looks better

lopequil

If you want beauty, try setting GWIII on a mob (with Invasive Control Programming and Overwhelming Force for extra oomph) then shove a HYII Temporal Disruption Device down their collective throats... then hit Temporal Backstop and do it all over again. They'll be rainbow dust before you can say Tellytubbies.

Chasing DPS is nice and all, but there's a certain amount of satisfaction to be had from hitting over 300k with a single torpedo.

zarato4218

lopequil wrote: »

If you want beauty, try setting GWIII on a mob (with Invasive Control Programming and Overwhelming Force for extra oomph) then shove a HYII Temporal Disruption Device down their collective throats... then hit Temporal Backstop and do it all over again. They'll be rainbow dust before you can say Tellytubbies.

Chasing DPS is nice and all, but there's a certain amount of satisfaction to be had from hitting over 300k with a single torpedo.

I only wish I had access to the Tipler Cylinder... unfortunatley I only ever got a Temporal Destoyer not a Temporal Sci, and that was actually on a Tac, not the Sci I gave a Paradox to. Extra unfortunate is that the tac also has the Temporal Warfare set and it will be a long time before I can gather enough lobi for another one, not that the Paradox even gets to benefit from its 3-piece set despite obviously coming from the same line of 29th century ships. (I usually only sell keys for EC, so using them just to build up lobi always feels like I'm wasting money somehow.)

davefenestrator

This could also be accomplished by adding a Cannon Fire At Will ability that worked like our beloved BFAW instead of just in a forward cone like scatter volley.

BFAW is already pretty good at taking out incoming targetables for beamboats.

ssbn655

brian334 wrote: »

Power Creep Theory says we'll have T7 ships one day, and that such ships will have more weapons, more power, and more hull strength, along with more device slots and hangar bays. They will render T6 ships obsolete the moment they hit the C-store shelves. But will they in any way be innovative?

I'd like to suggest that along with new ships we get a new class of weapon: the Point Defense weapon. These would be 360 degree weapons of short range and relatively low power, but with a high rate of fire, which auto-target spam such as destructible projectiles, mines, and small craft. The player would simply slot them and forget them. They could be enhanced by appropriate BOff powers, but otherwise fire only when spam enters their range, which I would say should be between 3 to 5 km.

Point Defense Beam Banks: Low power requirement, moderate damage potential, high rate of fire.
Point Defense Turrets: Low power requirement, low damage potential, extremely high rate of fire.
Point Defense Torpedo: No power requirement, high damage potential, moderate rate of fire. (Proximity fused types lower damage potential with a 1-2km AoE.)

These weapons could be slotted on lower tier ships, but they would have a special home on T7 cruisers, carriers, and dreadnaughts. I'd propose a centerline mounted slot be incorporated into T7 ships, with one Point Defense slot for cruisers and two for carriers and dreadnaughts. This would allow for a modest improvement in firepower without totally out-classing T5U and T6 ships. It would also allow an anticipated increase in carrier spam with the advancement of the next tier to be countered by ships of their tier.

Along with this could come a new Tactical Officer trait: Point Defense Specialist. Slotting a tactical BOff with this trait would improve the accuracy and/or rate of fire of Point Defense weaponry.

As a point of consideration, perhaps BFAW, CSV, and TS could enable these weapons to fire upon multiple spam objects within their range simultaneously when these BOff powers are active. BO, CRF, and T:HY could increase damage, rate of fire, and area of effect as appropriate.

I guess you are not aware that Point Defense turrets and Torpedoes are already in the game and ar a Universal console item usable of everything. Hell my Captians yacht has the PDF turret console. Plus already had my fill of a weapon slot thats useless for anything but the Cannon on the dyson ship that is both fixed and non removable and useless unless you are in Tac mode which renders other ship traits and abilites useless. So yeah gee wow.